News Letter not Allister adds to pact confusion

UPDATE from TUV Press office, the confusion was because of News Letter sub-editing. The full line read as follows:

In reality, a first preference vote for any unionist other than a TUV candidate at the next election will be interpreted as an endorsement of Sinn Fein/IRA’s place

Chekov has picked up on remarks by Jim Allister following a number of attacks on the TUV and Allister at the DUP Party Conference. Allister commented:

“a vote for any unionist other than a TUV candidate will be interpreted as an endorsement of Sinn Fein/IRA’s place in government.”

The UUP/TUV moves had angered the Tories and Empey moved quickly to deny any TUV-UUP pact. In the original UUP/TUV statement it stated:

“we agreed on the priority of retaining two unionist representatives in Europe. This should be the overriding priority of all unionists in respect of this election. Such is only attainable by full utilisation of transfers between the unionist candidates. Thus, we agreed to recommend such a voting strategy to all unionist voters.”

Allister’s comments leave room for a distinction between a 1st and a 2nd preference (UPDATE such a distinction was drawn in the full statement), electorally sensible but a case of opportunism over principle. Chekov argues it shows the UUP and TUV are on different pages, it also begs the question what if anything was actually agreed?

  • f_d, here are a couple of links:

    Allister antics sad to witness – Storey

    What a pitiful story

    story – Storey. Well at least it wasn’t a Bobby on the beat …

  • ABC

    “There is still time for Mr. Allister to pull back from the brink – he can do the honourable thing and abandon vote splitting. He chose to do so in the Enniskillen by-election in order to stop Sinn Fein from topping the poll in that race – why will he not do so for all of Northern Ireland? Is keeping Unionism at the head of the poll in Europe less important than a local council by-election? Why has he changed his longstanding position on the need to stop Sinn Fein topping the poll in European contests?”

    One can imagine Chairman Jim spitting blood on reading that comment!

  • “it also begs the question what if anything was actually agreed?”

    Nothing, other than the content of the press release.

  • fin

    I wonder if unionists are on a downward spiral, the DUP have campaigned on fear for a couple of elections – vote for us or SF will be the biggest party. So everyone gets lumbered with politicans who are religous fundamentalists wanting creationalism taught in schools, homophobics, and representitives who reduce every political issue to silly point scoring and posturing.
    Is this really what the unionist community want for society or does fear of the bogey man drive them on.

  • ABC

    It says a great deal about Empey that Jim Allister and his staff were able to embarass him so publicly as they did.

  • Tory

    I hope that this matter is now closed.

  • William

    I fail to see what Sir Reg has to be embarrassed about following his discussions with the TUV…..what the meeting concerned was merely ensuring that second preferences would be given to each of the parties by their respective voters. The DUPes could have been involved in the discussions too, but with Jim Allister involved, they didn’t take part, as they hate him more than their new found friends in Provisional Sinn Fein / IRA.

    As regards, the DUPes….while they scurry around looking for a candidate for the European Election, perhaps they’ll choose Thomas Hogg, the student they selected to co-op on to Fermanagh District Council, only to discard in favour of Arlene Foster once a bye-election was called. Or will it be another Fermanagh man, Officer Dodds?

  • Michael Shilliday

    You quote a portion of a statement which includes the phrase “we agreed” not once but twice. You then state “it also begs the question what if anything was actually agreed?”

    Push the fallacy of a pact all you will, you’re not fooling anyone, but of you’re going to use direct quotations, at least read them before continuing to waffle.

  • fair_deal

    MS

    Yes they issued a statement which used the term we agreed then have issued subsequent statements which cast doubt/potentially contradict what they said hence the questions. Both the media and tories interpreted it as a potential pact.

  • Mack

    Once again Jim’s only attack is on the DUP. Having watched Peter Robinson’s speech I heard hime say exactly what Jim said whilst in the DUP in 2004 that we cannot allow Sinn Fein to top the poll. Surely Jim should do the decent thing and step down and allow the DUP who really hold the seat as it was under the DUP that he gained the seat as it certainly wasn’t anything he did that won it.

    Jim has now set up a pact with the UUP, the party that sold Ulster out, the party that negotiated patten and destroyed the RUC. I don’t see this as something that would gain any support for a man who supported going into the current government last november. It seems that the only way Jim would become the leader of a political party was to form his own. sadly he only attacks the DUP and lets the UUP off the hook.

  • ??

    “a vote for any unionist other than a TUV candidate will be interpreted as an endorsement of Sinn Fein/IRA’s place in government.”

    looks like Jim has shafted the UUP and his ego is now reaching Bob McCartney heights as the sole saviour of unionism

  • Mack

    Obviously you believe that the DUPes, the Destroy Ulster Party has a divine right to a seat in Europe. They haven’t you know….Jim Allister is the incumbent Member of the European Parliament and it is he who has the right to defend his seat…the entry of the DUPes may ensure that their bosom buddies, Sinn Fein / IRA top the poll, but does it really matter???? As long as two Unionists are elected it doesn’t….it is only part of the DUPe ego that wishes to top the poll in Europe.

    Furthermore, the two Jims have proved to be excellent hard-working MEPs and to parachute someone like Officer Dodds into the fray would be counter productive….afterall isn’t he busy enough being an MP, Belfast city councillor, a Minister in the Executive and a member of the Assembly without also adding MEP to his CV….

  • William

    Hi Mack and other readers….comment #12 is in fact mine not Mack’s…..I don’t know what I did, but Mack’s name somehow got into the name line.

    My sincere apologies Mack….however you may well agree with my sentinments of course!!

  • William

    Mack wrote: ‘…….the ony way Jim would become the leader of a political party was to form his own…’

    Bit like Ian Paisley I suppose !! ??

  • Matt

    After the historic election today,could people in NI be as moved with an Irish person or indeed a Catholic becoming First Minister in NI…or indeed a Cathoilic becoming Prime Minister of the UK…would the feelgood factor be the same and as historic as the US election today,Paxmans inherent racism ‘IS CIVIL RIGHTS FINISHED’ shows his inability to understand the fundamental problems was startling… back on thread,Jim Alistair=Depression!

  • ??

    could people in NI be as moved with an Irish person or indeed a Catholic becoming First Minister in NI…

    nothing to do with irish or catholic, just not nationalist any more than a Labour supporter wants a conservative prime minister

  • Matt

    so post the GFA the answer is no to the original question ??….your just not straight talkin enuf to admit it!

  • ??

    Matt, and what? what is your point why should i as a unionist want to see a nationalist first minister. It doenst make any sense.

  • Matt

    I guess my point is why as a white person should I want to see a Black Person as President…I do…I’m glad…I feel feel happy….I feel the hand of history!!!…I guess I had a dream…then the Dreary Spires hoved into view…and ?? was there!…back to the past!

  • ??

    I guess my point is why as a white person should I want to see a Black Person as President…I do..

    so any black person or one whose views you could identify with?

    Give me a catholic unionist and hes got my vote , but ill not vote for a protestant nationalist

  • Matt

    So its an Irish thing… so the diabolical Irish will do what to you if you vote for em….Unionism is absolute and unmoving for you …even if they, I dunno, discriminate on religious/racial/color grounds…hey u must be from Portydown!

  • Matt

    Goodnite gg no surrender!

  • ??

    #

    So its an Irish thing… so the diabolical Irish will do what to you if you vote for em….Unionism is absolute and unmoving for you …even if they, I dunno, discriminate on religious/racial/color grounds…hey u must be from Portydown!
    Posted by Matt on Nov 05, 2008 @ 10:05 PM

    no its a nationalist thing, WHY would i vote for someone who is opposed to my political views?? I suppose you would vote for a black man who wanted to murder whites, after all he is black an dyou could feel soooo nice about it.

    You seem obsessed with the colour of someones skin, bad enough you had to vote for a black person, not because of their political views, but to ease your conscience

  • William

    Hi….Matt…I will accept anyone, irrespective of colour or faith as First Minister of Northern Ireland, provided he believes in the Union….As a Unionist I can’t believe in having a First Minister whose aim is to take us into a United Ireland.

    When Nationalism, led by Protestant, Roman Catholic, Hindu, Jew, Black, Yellow or White gets sufficient votes to be the Leader then fine, but not in the artifical system of enforced coalition that we now have…it must be a majority.

  • ??

    tell us william how would you run NI without stormont? back to dublin-london direct rule?

  • Mack

    I belive that the DUP are the main Unionist Party who have defended the Union. Jim A has done nothing for Northern Ireland in Europe only continually snipe at the DUP yet he now wants to court the UUP who under Trimble sold us out. Jim has noo policies, way forward other than direct rule which by the way funded the Gays, will give nationalists a Irish Language Act, will remove Academic selection the list goes on.

  • cynic

    “a vote for any unionist other than a TUV candidate will be interpreted as an endorsement of Sinn Fein/IRA’s place in government.”

    So what are you for then Mr Allister?

    “Vote for me because I’m agin themuns”

  • Carson’s Cat

    So, whoda thunk it then… apparently Jim Allister can get even more angry than he has been.

    You’d almost think that Allister believes that people are catching on to his act. Its true that Chairman Jim probably doesn’t like having the manifesto he got elected on the back of quoted too often. Mind you, he’ll probably claim that it doesn’t matter because he didn’t write it. He’s tried that excuse before when his “own” words were used to contract his present position.

    The statement he’s released does make for interesting reading in light of his dalliance with the UUP. I’m still not convinced if anything was actually agreed given how little anyone from the UUP really seemed to know about its contents in the immediate aftermath of its release.

    The TUV aren’t really on a different page to any other political party. They’ve decided that the book is immoral and had it burnt some time ago. They’ve then set up a purist book which won’t ever be bothered by little points like the nationalist population which its much easier for them to ignore than ever actually deal with.

    Oh aye, and wasn’t his son off in the states working for McCain… Well at least that went well.

  • William

    ?? Whoever you are….the current situation of enforced coalition is a form of gerrymander….and cannot be sustained…there must be a Government and an official opposition.

    At the moment, even if the Executive were meeting, it is impossible to exclude parties, irrespective of how they behave.

    Of course we have the DUPes to blame for that….they negoiated away, at St. Andrews, the right to bring down the Executive where a party is be obstructive or in breach of the Ministerial code. At the minute Sinn Fein / IRA are holding the Executive to ransom.

  • William

    Quote of the Day from ‘MACK’

    ‘I belive that the DUP are the main Unionist Party who have defended the Union’

    Half right I suppose, currently the DUPes are the ‘main’ party [mainly through lies mind you] but defending the Union….their in reality an Ulster Nationalist Party….the DUPes have done more to besmirch Unionism in the eyes of the British people on the mainland and throughout the World. Paisley was just a ‘gulpin’, roaring and shouting and one of the reasons he achieved ‘top dog’ position was, that he didn’t have a guldering fool roaring Traitor, Judas, Lundy at him, the way he roared at Unionist leaders from O’Neill to Trimble.

    The DUPes, as Reg Empey said in his statement of Monday, live in a twilight world, claiming credit for everything whilst when David Trimble was First Minister, they opposed it. The deny being in the Cabinet at that time, because they didn’t go to meetings, but Robbocop, Officer Dodds, Greedy Gregory were all bona fide Ministers, who were as responsible for any decisions taken as those who attended meetings.

    So the DUPes won’t have the luxury for ‘crying wolf’ about the evils of Sinn Fein / IRA when they are bosom pals with them in the Executive…remember when Trimble was FM, he had two Shinners in the Executive [McGuinness and De Braun]….Paisley brought in five [Gildernew, McGuinness, Kelly, Ruane and Murphy] so no doubt in the twisted hypocritical minds of the DUPes that’s better for Unionism and is standing up for it. Oh…the deluded fools….the DUPlicitious lunatics…

  • fin

    William the number of SF ministers inthe executive is a result of the electorate, not the grave and favour of a unionist politican.

    In reading this thread I get the feeling SF would be happy for an election to be held next week, unionism appears to be in total disarray

  • eranu

    “After the historic election today,could people in NI be as moved with an Irish person or indeed a Catholic becoming First Minister in NI…”

    you’ll probably find that all the first ministers were irish people for flip sake! i dont know about anyone else but i find this trying to paint people in northern ireland as not irish if they’re not a chip on the shoulder nationalist a bit of an insult. we’re not from some limbo land.
    maybe you are confusing irish nationals who actually come from the republic of ireland, with irish people who come from anywhere in ireland?

  • autocue

    “as Reg Empey said in his statement of Monday”

    Which presumably was delivered from a beacj whilst sipping pina colada’s – this is the man who issued a statement praising the homecoming parade as having been “a good day” when he wasn’t even at it!

    Allister can expect his words to be cast back in his teeth between now and polling day.

  • eranu,

    … maybe you are confusing irish nationals who actually come from the republic of ireland …

    ‘Irish nationals’ also come from “anywhere in Ireland”. Ask Jackie McDonald!

    Everyone in Ireland is Irish, and everyone has the right to Irish citizenship. Just some choose not to avail of the latter.

  • eranu

    horse, i’ll not get into the irish passport thing. for some i think they think they are actually from the ROI once they get one! 🙂
    id guess jackie thinks he has just managed to get a passport, in reality its nothing more than that, and not moved to chapelizod to be beside his friends.

    what do people mean when they talk about irish people to the exclusion of non nationalists in NI? it seems pretty dumb.
    would you find that as equally cringeworthy as i do?

  • William

    Fin….

    So the number of Ministers is the result of the election…well who insisted on the Election….Paisley & the DUPes of course, resulting in the terrorists in suits getting the opportunity to have 5 Ministers.

    Had the UUP / SDLP been listened to, a referendum would have sufficed and we would now have had a working Government, delivering on their promises….which in reality we know Sinn Fein / IRA and the DUPes couldn’t do due to their mutual loathing for each other.

  • George

    Eranu,
    I don’t think it’s exclusion, it’s more confusion. You’re an Irishman who doesn’t want to live in the same state as his fellow Irishmen.

    It would be like me proclaiming from the rooftops that I’m British but at same time saying God forbid I’d ever end up being part of the United Kingdom. I know my fellow Dubliners would be confused if I held such a position.

  • This little hissy fit is a bit unfortunate.

    Jim and Mervyn have been almost the only public representatives prepared to challenge the Rathlin ferry shenanigans. The Stormont committees have conveyed an impression of ‘lazy MLAs’ (cf ‘lazy journalists’)

    It’s possible there would have been no investigations had Jim’s office not drawn the matter to the attention of the Northern Ireland Audit Office.

    Jim is also a bit of a hero in a rather unlikely place: Cape Clear, Co Cork.

    The publication of the report of the investigators has now been delayed for a third time – but the longer the delay, the more documents will become available for public display. Now, if only Moyle councillors had been given the training to use the internet facilities they’ve been supplied with …

  • Qwerty

    I don’t think it’s exclusion, it’s more confusion. You’re an Irishman who doesn’t want to live in the same state as his fellow Irishmen.

    It’s no more a confusion than an Englishman who supports the union, or a Scotsman or a Welshman. Is Gordon Brown not Scottish because because he supports the union? What is he then? English?

    It’s hardly rocket science to get your head around this concept. There is no “natural law” excluding Irishness from Britishness. It’s a matter of state of mind or opinion.

  • eranu

    george, i dont think your example is accurate. british is the name of the nationality but I mean just where your from. Not sure if there is a word for that? to use the uk and england as an example, there would have to be part of england that wasnt part of the uk, lets say the south east. someone in the south east of england might then find it a bit annoying for people in the uk part of england to call him not english. thats all it is as far as im concerned.

    “You’re an Irishman who doesn’t want to live in the same state as his fellow Irishmen.”
    thats correct, no confusion there! 🙂 but i would replace fellow with other in that sentence. I live in the south but I don’t find all that much in common with southern irish to go as far as fellow in this context. I think when people use the irish / not irish line about people in NI its just because they cant cope with the fact some irish people think in a totally opposite way they do. Ie they have no chip on their shoulder. Anyways, just some ramblings as slugger seems to be a bit boring at the mo 🙂

  • eranu,

    what do people mean when they talk about irish people to the exclusion of non nationalists in NI? it seems pretty dumb.

    would you find that as equally cringeworthy as i do?

    I completely disagree with people who equate Irishness with either the exercise of formal citizenship, or political opinion. My position is very clear (and, I believe, quite republican!) – if you are from the island called Ireland, then you are Irish.

    Ian Paisley is as Irish as I am, so, god help me, is Jim Allister. Irishness is not a question of culture – many born-and-raised in the south know no Irish, hate Irish music, watch soccer on english TV, eat chinese tackaways, etc. Nor is it a question of language – many 100% Irish people neither speak, nor want to speak, a word of Irish. Nor is it religious – Irish people are from all religions, or (preferrably) none.

    Irishness is an accident of birth, like Englishness or Americanness.

    Cirtizenship is, of course, rud eile.

  • eranu

    glad we agree horseman!

  • George

    Eranu,
    i dont think your example is accurate. british is the name of the nationality but I mean just where your from.

    Normally nationality and where you are from are one and the same but Northern Ireland is a tad unusual.

    to use the uk and england as an example, there would have to be part of england that wasnt part of the uk, lets say the south east. someone in the south east of england might then find it a bit annoying for people in the uk part of england to call him not english.

    Could well be but equally people from England might find it confusing that someone claiming to be from England didn’t want to be part of what the overwhelming majority of Englishmen considered to be England.

    For example, I just can’t imagine the English people considering the people of Cornwall as English if the Cornish were being happily ruled by the French, celebrated Bastille Day like there was no tomorrow and armed themselves to the teeth at the slightest prospect of being ceded to England.

    thats correct, no confusion there! 🙂 but i would replace fellow with other in that sentence.

    Indeed but to avoid confusion maybe you would consider differentiating your Irishness (that other you mention) from the generic by adding a qualifier. It has been done so many times before.

    Perhaps British-Irish as Scots-Irish doesn’t include all those in Ireland whose allegiance is to the British nation.

    Just a thought as things are so slow.

  • eranu

    george,
    “Normally nationality and where you are from are one and the same but Northern Ireland is a tad unusual.”

    NI is no different from the other parts of the UK in regards to nationality. theres no legal nationality other than british for UK folks (leaving out the extra irish passport option in NI). i find it entirely reasonable that people from single state countries think that way, eg France/French etc. but it only takes a second to understand that multiple state countries dont fit that neat naming model. the UK and US are the multi state countries im thinking of, theres no need to pick out NI as being the only different place.

    “Could well be but equally people from England might find it confusing that someone claiming to be from England didn’t want to be part of what the overwhelming majority of Englishmen considered to be England.”

    i think whats really going on is that irish nationalist people start from a position that irish people are just supposed to be exactly like them, to be a certain way. anything different is simply wrong. in your england example you seem to be saying the majority think the minority should change their ways and adopt the ways of the majority.

    “For example, I just can’t imagine the English people considering the people of Cornwall as English if the Cornish were being happily ruled by the French, celebrated Bastille Day like there was no tomorrow and armed themselves to the teeth at the slightest prospect of being ceded to England.”

    why wouldnt people in england not consider people in another part of england as english people? in these examples, as in NI, we arent talking about nationality. more a geographic term i think. if cornwall was part of a french state then bastille day would be as much their day as anyone elses in the french state.

    “Indeed but to avoid confusion maybe you would consider differentiating your Irishness (that other you mention) from the generic by adding a qualifier. It has been done so many times before. “
    We do. Its called Northern Irish. Why don’t people in the south differentiate their irishness also? go on i dare you to think of a word! 😀

  • Reader

    George: Normally nationality and where you are from are one and the same but Northern Ireland is a tad unusual.
    Is the Republic of Ireland soccer team Irish?
    George: Indeed but to avoid confusion maybe you would consider differentiating your Irishness (that other you mention) from the generic by adding a qualifier.
    When a unionist calls himself Irish he is using a far more inclusive and generic definition of the term than 95% of the nationalists who use it.

  • riverlagan

    If we are to believe the UUP are only concerned regarding maintaining two Unionist seats in Europe: Why then endorse Jim Allister when he is undoubtedly the Unionist outsider in the forthcoming election? If that was their main interest, then common sense dictates that they would have entered a pact with the DUP – not some little fringe party.

  • riverlagan

    george,
    “Normally nationality and where you are from are one and the same but Northern Ireland is a tad unusual.”

    Some examples: Ethnic Albanians in Kosovo have never considered themselves Serbs (and yeas I know Kosovo has since been recognized as independent): The Turkish community in Germany are issued with Turkish passports, disregarding the fact that the majority of that community are third-generation.

  • Bigger Picture

    “a vote for any unionist other than a TUV candidate will be interpreted as an endorsement of Sinn Fein/IRA’s place in government.”

    and a vote for the TUV will lead to the TUV and SF’s preference, joint direct rule from London and Dublin.

    It is time for Mr Allister to realise that how we deal with our enemies is not to run away and squeek that we don’t agree but to fight the fight and not let those that gladly pander to SF demands also look after unionists interests. It is inexcusable to ever sell ourselves short and voluntarily sideline ourselves.

  • Comrade Stalin

    William writes:

    Hi….Matt…I will accept anyone, irrespective of colour or faith as First Minister of Northern Ireland, provided he believes in the Union…

    “You can vote for anyone you want, so long as they are unionist”. The idea that only people of a fixed political persuasion are fit to lead the country is a template for fascism. It’s not surprising to hear hardline unionists advocate this.

    The second world war was fought and won in order to defeat people with attitudes like yours. I hope that you remember that this Remembrance Sunday.

  • George

    Eranu,
    we don’t need the qualifier word as we are the generic. I suppose we could be called the generic Irish. 😀

    Riverlagan,
    The Turkish community in Germany are issued with Turkish passports, disregarding the fact that the majority of that community are third-generation.

    That has a lot to do with the fact that until around a decade ago even third generation Turks weren’t entitled to a German passport, as you were only entitled to one through German blood. So the only passport they could get was a Turkish one.

    Another reason was that under Turkish law, German Turks would have had problems owning property in Turkey and that is where many want to retire. Then there was the problem that if they went to Turkey as “non-Germans” they lost their pension benefits.

    Don’t know what the exact situation is today but I do know that the two countries have worked out a dual citizenship arrangement to get around these problems.

    Reader,
    Is the Republic of Ireland soccer team Irish?

    More than it used to be.