“still sort of a gray area as to what Gerry Adams did do..”

Notwithstanding the absence of a Sinn Féin spokesman, there was a fairly comprehensive discussion on Stormont Live of DUP MLA Nelson McCausland’s comments yesterday. Beginning with his ejection from the Assembly chamber today by Speaker Willie Hay.

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  • dublinsfsupporter

    Gerry Adams has made it crystal clear in numerous interviews: he was not in the IRA. No can we move on?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “but they haven’t gone away you know”

  • josephine

    interesting to see that mark devenport now believes that it is ‘still sort of a gray area what gerry adams did do in those early years’. he wasn’t quite so reticent about adams’ ira past when along with david sharrock, he wrote an unauthorised biography of gerry adams, ‘man of war, man of peace?’ that was published in 1998. to quote ronan bennett’s review of the book in the london review of books, he seemed quite definite about adams’ ira links: ‘sharrock and devenport say that (adams) joined fianna eireann, the junior ira, soon after the divis street riots of 1964. by 1969 he had graduated into the ira proper, and in 1970, after a bitter split in the movement, he sided with the militant “provisional” wing against the old marxist-influenced “officials”. sharrock and devenport repeat claims that he was variously “the ira’s brigade commander in belfast”; the “provisionals” 2nd belfast battalion commander between may 1971 and march 1972; either “adjutant or chief of staff” of the Northern Command in 1977; and, soon afterwards a member of the ira’s seven-strong army council.’ so what has happened in the intervening years? has mark learned something to cast doubt on what he co-wrote ten years ago? or is his new lack of certitude due to the fact that the subject of his book is now a power in the land, someone whose ire it would be foolish to provoke if he wishes to continue reporting on that subject’s party and politics? surely not?!

  • WTF, yet more libels about Gerry Adams without even a mention of his alleged role in forming and using “the unknowns” – what was the basis for the whole libel, under parliamentary privilege, by that Nelson nobody.

    Is this site one for discussion or just a playpen where Peter Baker can create as many threads as he wants about his current obssession, in any way he sees fit?

  • Willam

    Drawbrige H. Ford is obsessed with supporting Gerry Adams….wonder what this Yank really knows about the IRA …. perhaps he is a closet member ???

  • Ri Na Deise

    Ye say Gerry was in the ‘RA?

    PROVE IT!

  • ciaran

    William, you are starting to sound a bit like nelson mcausland making unfounded/unproven accusations.

  • William

    Ciaran…Well wasn’t Nelson correct….if he isn’t why hasn’t the grisly one sued Ed Maloney for libel?

    Answer please?

  • Mack

    I fully support Nelson and the comments he made where correct. Gerry Adams must be ambarrassed at the fact that he was a Commander of the IRA maybe the dissidents will see this as Gerry being a traitor to what he refuted.

  • ciaran

    So if gerry sues for libel and wins will you accept that he was not in the ira, was not the ira commander and had nothing to do with the disappeared? See the problem here is I think you won’t accept that no matter what. And I think maybe gerry has the same opinion, that even if he won a case like that, the people who accuse him now will not change their opinion. If you remember the guildford four being released after their convictions were overturned, some of the victims relatives still believed they were guilty, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. So really, what is the point of a libel case? And you seem convinced of gerry’s guilt, can you show any evidence to back that up? I would genuinely like to see evidence to back up that claim, because there is no real way for gerry to prove his innocence.Is there?

  • I suggest that those interested in this topic look at the photograph of a Fianna camp in the Sharrock/Davenport book, and have a look at what his own party were saying about Adams the first time he stood for election.

  • And I suggest that posters read the relevant parts of Ed Moloney’s A Secret History of the IRA, especially the parts about Gerry Adams making up, and using “the unknowns”, starting at p. 122 – what that unionist nut without balls repeated under parliamentary privilege, and as far as I can tell has not repeated it outside the Assembly.

    If he does, I am quite sure that Adams will sue him because he can easily show that Moloney had no basis for what he wrote, only his own biased speculation.

    Do you guys ever keep on topic about anything???

  • oneill

    Likely Gerry’s solicitor has advised him that the possible damages recieved would not be greater then the cost of prosecuting the case

    If he won the case he would most likely receive not only damages for the er…libel,but all his legal expenses. It suits Gerry and more importantly all those naice, middle-class SF voters for him to remain in the grey area- selective amnesia does wonders for the conscience and the voting figures.

  • ciaran

    I do not think a libel case would be about money, after all many here are convinced gerry is a multi millionaire thanks to the northern bank. Would a successful libel case actually change anyones opinion of gerry’s suppossed involvement.And if not then what is the point?

  • Blair

    “If he does, I am quite sure that Adams will sue him because he can easily show that Moloney had no basis for what he wrote, only his own biased speculation.”

    Trowbridge,

    So why hasn’t he sued Maloney?

  • I think that it is because Moloney lives in America as I recall, and the risks of such a suit are greater there, as verdicts can depend upon even more moronic jurors than in the UK, Adams would have to prove that Moloney maliciously and knowingly libelled him, and the costs of failure would be gigantic.

    And if Gerry still somehow won, it would just result in his enemies in N. I. claiming that it was because of all the loony Paddies in America.

    Better, in sum, to leave the matter be.

    Any word on Nelson McCausland finding out that he really has balls?

    And my I ask why you choose to use the site name, Blair? I would settle for something like Jack The Ripper first.

  • To give you, Blair, the best example I know of getting a succesful verdict in a libel case by a politician, I provide a link about the lengths the Clinton administration went to in order to get evidence that I knowingly and maliciously went after former President Richard Nixon:

    http://codshit.blogspot.com/2004/04/more-confessions-about-americas-plot.html

    This link is particularly relevant to this site as posters, especially Intelligence Insider, have made fun of my claims about the plot to kill me, and the site’s administration has used Intelligence Insider’s put-down as characterizing my contributions to it!

    Little wonder that I am constantly thinking of leaving. Only helping N. I. achieve some kind of peace keeps me here.

  • Suilven

    “Little wonder that I am constantly thinking of leaving.”

    Don’t let us detain you, Trowbridge. And I really, really mean that.

  • wise up

    Wise up, Gerry said he was never a member of PIRA and that shoud be good enough. Of course he also said that there would be no internal settlement, no decommissioning, no support for a british police force, blah, blah, blah. And then there’s Robinson’s deputy pet poodle who says he left PIRA in the very early 70s and of course he also claims he is not J118.

    Both are telling the truth about their membership as they are both brit agents!

  • Mike C

    Trowbridge

    There is nothing to stop Adams bringing a libel action in Northern Ireland (apart from being time barred). The location of the author is wholly irrelevent. The book is available here so the “libel” (if that is what it is) took place here. Your millenium in US intelligence and hundred years teaching politics didn’t help with that…

  • Suliven, it is just people like you – ones who constantly convert discussions of serious matters into the slanging of individuals – who keep me here.

    You and your ilk get lost, and I shall too.

    Mike C, I was asked by Blair as to why Adams has never sued Moloney, and I discussed some of the problems involved, especially if Adams had sued him in a NY court which could give the quickest satisfaction.

    In a N. I. action, Adams would have probably gotten nothing but a big bill of costs for no satisfaction.

    As the time limit now prevents him any redress for Moloney’s original statements, Nelson McCausland must repeat it in either word or writing to make a case – what he apparently has no interest in doing.

    Just more trouble-making for the place, like your snide comment about me.

  • Blair

    Trowbridge,

    So in summary Adams has not sued Moloney on account of the fact that he could lose.

  • Yes, he could lose a case in the USA because of the standard required to win a libel case for a politician, and the costs incurred, and in the UK, while the standard is much lower, the damages would certainly not be worth the expense.

    When I thought I might sue the editor of Eye Spy magazine, Mark Ian Birdsall, for refusing to pay for many articles of mine he had published in his magazine, I was told that if I could not at least have a chance of winning £5,000, it would not be worth the costs.

    I doubt any N. I. court would give Adams that much if Moloney had called him a serial killer of women and children.

    People must be aware of all the variables in such controversal disputes.

  • Blair

    Trowbridge,

    Yes he could lose the case because the allegations are true

  • Peter Brown

    Adams doesn’t sue because no Court in NI or elsewhere will think that his penchant for wearing berets in the early 1970’s was a fashion statement – they might assume (not unreasonably) that wearing the uniform in the colour party at an IRA funeral means he might be a member?

  • Peter Brown
  • RepublicanStones

    Peter if wearing berets is something to worry about, there should be a few ‘respectable’ unionists sweating under the collar.

    But hey if its pro-state its not terrorism is it?

  • Peter Brown

    Check out the photo RS – if they wore them in colour parties at funerals for dead terrorists they would have something to worry about so I expect a long list of links to such photos.

    If not compare apples and apples not apples and oranges otherwise the PSNI would be arresting every mime artist in Belfast (which personally I would support but not because they are terrorists!)

  • pat
  • ciaran

    Peter , your link is just more proof that the dup are cowards who do not have the courage to make these statements in the public arena where they would either have to prove them or suffer the consequences.
    Blair, you say the allegations are true, could you prove that too. I have no idea what , if any gerry’s involvement was but I am interested to see proof.

  • A N Other

    “Ye say Gerry was in the ‘RA?

    PROVE IT!

    Posted by Ri Na Deise on Nov 04, 2008 @ 08:07 PM”

    Dear R Na Deise/Bolliky (to use your pen-name on a non-political website onto which you continually troll your pious garbage….)

    I can prove it.

    When Michael Stone went rampaging through Milltown in 1988, GA was in the process of giving the graveside oration to one of the 3 dead Gilbraltar Bon-Jovis.

    Now, why do you think he did that?

    He was released from prison in 1972 to fly to London for peace talks.

    Again, why do you think he did that?

    And finally (for now!), his call to the Clinton Govt. immediately prior to one of the mid-1990s’ “super-bombs”, that he was ‘hearing distrubing reports coming out of Sth. Armagh’…

    I’ll ask again – why?

    Deep down, you know the answer to this questions. If you wish to continually troll this pathetic & puerile lie, be my guest….but you’re not gonna change any rational-thinking person’s viewpoint.

    PS – you’re doing your best to single-handedly destroy UTD.com with threads & comments like the one quoted above…

    Maybe WB/Foley might have a quiet word in your ear if he sees ya in The Cleaboy this week…

    ANO

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Your name brought back memories Peter. Brownie.

  • ciaran

    a.n.other, If that is what you call proof then think god you have nothing to do with the prosecution service. Even the guildford four were convicted using better evidenc than that.

  • Peter Brown

    Try photographic evidence Ciaran – its as good as forensics

  • pat

    ‘When Michael Stone went rampaging through Milltown in 1988, GA was in the process of giving the graveside oration to one of the 3 dead Gilbraltar Bon-Jovis.’

    So when Sammy Wilson was guest of honour at the opening of this RHC/UVF arch, did that make him a UVF terrorist?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/817946.stm

  • Peter Brown

    Is he wearing a beret and in the colour party? No I thought not – apples and oranges

  • pat

    ‘Is he wearing a beret and in the colour party? No I thought not – apples and oranges’

    Looks like a beret and a colour party to me.

    http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/images/2003/12/04/Ulster-Resistance.jpg

  • ciaran

    If you mean the photo of gerry in your link, come on really. That shows a young man in a beret.All that shows is poor fashion sense.Still not proof. I also know of a few people who were in an honour guard or whatever you want to call it at funerals,and they were not in the ira.Which was the point by the way, so that the real ira wouldn’t be identified.

  • RepublicanStones

    Good man Peter, thanks for proving my point.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Brownie is identified by David Sharrock and Mark Devenport

  • Buster

    …”Yes, he could lose a case in the USA because of the standard required to win a libel case for a politician, and the costs incurred, and in the UK, while the standard is much lower, the damages would certainly not be worth the expense.

    When I thought I might sue the editor of Eye Spy magazine, Mark Ian Birdsall, for refusing to pay for many articles of mine he had published in his magazine, I was told that if I could not at least have a chance of winning £5,000, it would not be worth the costs.

    I doubt any N. I. court would give Adams that much if Moloney had called him a serial killer of women and children.

    People must be aware of all the variables in such controversal disputes.

    Posted by Trowbridge H. Ford on Nov 05, 2008 @ 01:09 PM”…

    So the argument appears to be that it is not financially viable for Adams to take a risk and have himself cleared????ffs…

  • Peter Brown

    “That shows a young man in a beret.All that shows is poor fashion sense.Still not proof. I also know of a few people who were in an honour guard or whatever you want to call it at funerals,and they were not in the ira.Which was the point by the way, so that the real ira wouldn’t be identified.”

    So Gerry was actually not a known Republican but a fall guy for the real (note the small ‘r’) IRA -is that really the best you can come up with? Hasn’t he done well for a fake Provo

  • A N Other

    a.n.other, If that is what you call proof then think god you have nothing to do with the prosecution service. Even the guildford four were convicted using better evidenc than that.

    Posted by ciaran on Nov 05, 2008 @ 02:05 PM

    Ciaran, I could literally sit here all day & give you about 100 different similiar examples.

    – interestingly, you made no attempt to address
    the points I raised;

    – most rationale-minded people already know the
    answer as to whether or not “Brownie” was
    heavily involved in the organisation in
    question; and

    – if you still belive such a lie (or more
    likely, are doing all you can on here to
    refute the claims about his
    membership)….then you’re beyond help.

    Quick question for ya – if GA was such a “non-entity” in the RM, then why was the gun used by “Grugg” tampered with??

    No wait – let me guess! That didn’t happen either….zzzzzzzz

  • ciaran

    Once again I have to remind you I am not saying he is guilty or innocent because unlike you I do not take rumour as evidence.
    “interestingly, you made no attempt to address
    the points I raised;”
    What points? that because he spoke in miltown at the funerals of the gibrater three that that makes him chief of staff. And if your other 100 examples are as weak as this then maybe you shouldn’t embarrass yourself any further.And I have no interest in trying to refute any claims of gerry’s membership, rather for you to prove them
    And peter, Gerry has been in sinn fein a long long time which is probably why he has done so well. Still nothing there to show ira involvment.

  • Sorry, Buster, but I mistakenly posted the answer to your question on another thread after checking on something – what just shows Peter Baker’s confusion-making by starting no less than three on the matter.

  • Shirley McGuffin

    Stalin and his crew also denied doing bank jobs when they took power. And Mad Frank Ross denied ever being in OIRA. When asked why he went to Norrth Korea 9as in great fake $100 bills), he said Comhaltas and The Cheiftains went there too. No one ever accused Derek Bell of letting off no warning bombs to kill cleaning women.

    Say what you like about the Waffen SS but htye looked their accusers in the eye. Maybe no one was ever in the Waffen SS either. Of course, The Kife of Brian was modelled in large part on the factionalism General Gerry represents.

  • Blair

    “If you mean the photo of gerry in your link, come on really. That shows a young man in a beret.All that shows is poor fashion sense.Still not proof.”

    Ciaran,

    Was he going through his ‘Frank Spencer’ phase at the time? The beret fashion seems to have been very popular with the other people in the immediate vicinity of he IRA coffin. When did the IRA take to inviting non IRA members to escort their coffins?

  • pat

    ‘Is he wearing a beret and in the colour party? No I thought not – apples and oranges’

    Looks like a beret and a colour party to me.

    http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/images/2003/12/04/Ulster-Resistance.jpg

    Peter

    Do you see any real difference between the pics of Adams and Robinson.

  • ciaran

    blair, are the other people in the vicinity ira members? And why would an ira man walk beside a coffin without hiding his face? Maybe they thought british intelligence would think it was a frank spencer theme funeral.

  • Peter Brown

    Only one small alomst insignificant difference – Robinson is not at an IRA funeral

  • fair_deal

    “blair, are the other people in the vicinity ira members?”

    The one in front of him certainly was. Martin Meehan is in front of him. He was a convicted and self-confessed member of the IRA.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/martin-meehan-399034.html

    “And why would an ira man walk beside a coffin without hiding his face?”

    It was not unusual in the 1970’s Martin McGuinness appeared at one in uniform.
    http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5811/mcguinness1972hy0.jpg

    McGuinness gave a TV interview as such:

    (See 4 mins 39 secs)

    The IRA leadership held open press conferences too:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l3Tw-UPUOE&feature=related
    (See 2minutes 18 secs in – confirmation of Adams IRA membership is given at 3 minutes 20 secs by a former PIRA Chief of Staff too)

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Peter, don’t get drawn into these types of discussions with these people. They will continue to see black as white because it’s in their interest for the people of N.Ireland and N.Ireland to be unworkable.

    Fact is: Gerry hasn’t sued Maloney and the others, so his failure to sue, shows he’s as guilty as sin.

  • ciaran

    Re fair deal, see that is the kind of thing I am talking about. Not rumour but something to back up a point.Fair enough.
    UMH as a father of two I do want to see NI work. I certainly do not want my children grow up in the NI that I grew up in.
    And your logic is a bit warped,if he doesn’t sue he is guilty.Maybe he sees the attitude of people like you and thinks winning a libel case isn’t going to change your opinion of him.And given that he would have to prove he was not in the ira to win it, it would be a hard case to win. I mean, I would have a hard time proving I was not in the ira and I wasn’t. How do you prove something like that?

  • ciaran

    But it is the case that ira funerals do have people other than the ira escorting the coffin

    http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/detail/16602

  • Ulsters my homeland

    ciaran

    “[i]UMH as a father of two I do want to see NI work. I certainly do not want my children grow up in the NI that I grew up in.”[/i]

    Fair play to you.

    “[i]And your logic is a bit warped,if he doesn’t sue he is guilty.”[/i]

    don’t do a Trowbridge H. Ford. I said “his failure to sue, [u]shows[/u] he’s as guilty as sin.”

  • Maybe he sees the attitude of people like you and thinks winning a libel case isn’t going to change your opinion of him.

    And do you really think Gerry cares two hoots about what Unionists think or believe of him?

    The value of winning a libel case would be a lot far-reaching than that- it certainly wouldn’t hurt at the ballot box and would also go along way towards building that Mandela-esque image he so obviously craves overseas.Might even win the Nobel Peace Prize…if we won the libel, of course.

  • ciaran

    UMH, I would think his failure to sue shows a better understanding of the british legal system, especially in the case of libel. Burden of proof seems to be on the “victim” and no legal aid, so big costs.
    Oneill, the value of winning is a matter of opinion.Even if he won , more than just unionists might still not believe it. Opinion is pretty set on that matter. As I posted before, some people still think the guildford four are guilty.Hard to change some peoples minds, even with the truth.

  • Blair

    “blair, are the other people in the vicinity ira members? And why would an ira man walk beside a coffin without hiding his face? Maybe they thought british intelligence would think it was a frank spencer theme funeral.”

    Ciaran,

    I would say it is a fairly safe bet that the ones in the berets are. Unless the dead man was a big Frank Spencer fan with a whacky sense of humour. They don’t wear masks now you’ll notice. No threat of arrest or being whacked by Loyalists. Just as it was when this funeral took place.

  • Blair

    “His coffin was draped in the National flag with beret and gloves placed on top and was flanked by a republican Guard of Honour.”

    Ciaran,

    That would be IRA men.

  • ciaran

    So republican only means ira, not sinn fein then?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    does anyone know how many IRA men/women were buried without the obvious Republican honours?

  • So, UMH, is on another ramage, contending that GA’s declining to sue Ed Moloney and Nelson McCausland – despite what I have stated about the difficulties of any such libel action anywhere – shows that he is guilty as libelled – what UMH last contended after Chris Ward was found not guilty of the Northern Bank heist.

    How much longer are the administrators going to allow UMH to libel anyone, as he sees fit?

    It’s pathetic!

  • Big Maggie

    I hereby switch my allegiance to this thread. Here’s another mindless post to go alongside those made by Ulster’s My Homeland.

  • Peter Brown

    “Yes, he could lose a case in the USA because of the standard required to win a libel case for a politician, and the costs incurred, and in the UK, while the standard is much lower, the damages would certainly not be worth the expense.

    When I thought I might sue the editor of Eye Spy magazine, Mark Ian Birdsall, for refusing to pay for many articles of mine he had published in his magazine, I was told that if I could not at least have a chance of winning £5,000, it would not be worth the costs.

    I doubt any N. I. court would give Adams that much if Moloney had called him a serial killer of women and children.

    People must be aware of all the variables in such controversal disputes.”

    As a practicing lawyer although with only theroetical expereince of libel this is tosh THF

    Libel awards in the UK are so easy and so significant many US celebs sue over here instead of in the US retaining a Belfast specialist to do so
    http://www.johnsonssolicitors.com/Site/53/Documents/SundayTribune_310808.pdf

    just be careful it isn’t libellous to falsely accuse somone of committing libel! More substance less spin please…

  • pat

    ‘Only one small alomst insignificant difference – Robinson is not at an IRA funeral’

    But Peter, he’s leading a paramilitary parade complete with loyalist paramilitary beret.

    But i suppose ‘constitutional’ unionists have always been happy to go to paramilitary funerals, like Paisley attending his UVF mate George Seawright.

    http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/detail/15648

    I remember Ian Paisley attending the wake of UVF leader John Bingham. A number of other high-ranking unionist councillors attended Bingham’s funeral.

    Those present when John Bingham’s coffin – draped in a UVF flag, beret and gloves – was carried from the church, included the then north Belfast MP Cecil Walker, former DUP councillor George Seawright, former UUP mayor John Carson and councillors Joe Coggle, Frank Millar and Hugh Smyth.

  • Peter Brown

    What was Bingham convicted of? Oh that’s right nothing – same as Gerry but let’s apply 2 different standards of proof one for loylaists another for republicans.

    I accept that Bingham, Billy Wright, Joe Bratty etc were all terrorists and I and the vast majority of the unionist community had and indeed have no time for them (let’s not forget that the catalyst for my resignation from the UUP was Ervine’s arrival) and 200,000 of us don’t vote for their parties but when Gerry claims he was at home watching TV on his own on Bloody Friday it must be true.

    There’s a word for treating 2 groups of people differently because of their religion or political beliefs = take your pick from discrimination, racism or sectarianism.

    Robinson and other dipped their toes in UR (something I have been very critical of and vocal about in the past – as anyone who was there the night Ballymena Council debated the Agreement will testify to) but they were long gone before the gun running by their former colleagues and didn’t carry anyone’s coffins. McCrea sailed closest to the wind over Billy Wright and I am glad he personally suffered politically for it but sad that his replacement was an actual terrorist not someone who simply associated with them.

  • OC

    In his book “The IRA A History”, Tim Pat Coogan also asserts that Gerry Adams was in the IRA.

    Is Coogan’s book reliable? Or British propaganda?

  • pat

    ‘Robinson and other dipped their toes in UR but they were long gone before the gun running by their former colleagues’

    Peter Robinson campaigned on behalf of the ‘Paris Three’ long after they had supposedly left Ulster Resistance.

  • Your use of what starlets can get in libel suits if defamed with what Gerry Adams et al. could get if innocent and treated likewise by people like reporter Ed Moloney is patently absurd.

    All you need do is look at how Thomas ‘Slab’ Murphy fared when he took offense to The Times stating, on the basis of what informer Sean O’Callaghan claimed, that he was the Chief of Staff of the IRA’s Revolutionary Council. O’Callaghan also claimed that SF President Gerry Adams attended one of its meetings in 1983.

    Murphy lost his case solely on the basis of what the Irish government agent contended.

    In case you have forgotten what happened in the trial, here is a link:

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/informer-identifies-iras-top-personnel-450327.html

    For this apparently false testimony, O’Callaghan had 533 years inprisonment quashed of a 539-year sentence for his alleged crimes:

    http:/www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/iras-informer.shtml

    Whatever Adams, Murphy et al. did, for anyone to believe a serious word from O’Callaghan is beyond belief.

    And Adams, given O’Callaghan’s continuous false statements, could never win a claim that he was not in the IRA, though he might not have been, only Moloney’s most-damaging specualation that he set up and ran “the unknows”.

    Just stick to your theortical lawyering!

  • Blair

    “So republican only means ira, not sinn fein then?”

    Ciaran,

    Republican can also mean Sinn Fein, but to the best of my knowledge Sinn Fein is not a uniformed organistaion. So we are left with two options for the funeral in question. Either the guard were IRA members, or the dead IRA man was a big fan of Frank Spencer who wanted a Frank Spencer themed funeral.

    Which do you reckon?

  • Blair

    “All you need do is look at how Thomas ‘Slab’ Murphy fared when he took offense to The Times stating, on the basis of what informer Sean O’Callaghan claimed, that he was the Chief of Staff of the IRA’s Revolutionary Council. O’Callaghan also claimed that SF President Gerry Adams attended one of its meetings in 1983.”

    Trowbridge,

    A jury of Irish men and women sat in court and listened to the evidence which was presented by both the Sunday Times and by Slab Murphy. They concluded that Slab Murphy was lying.

    What, apart from the fact that your hero lost, is your problem with that?

  • Blair, I am no friend of Thomas ‘Slab’ Murphy, but I have all kinds of problems with trials like this where the chief witness, Sean O’Callaghan, is a longtime informant of the government in which the trial is taking place, and he gets his sentence reduced by 533 years for telling lies to suit his employers.

    What jury would not convict under such circumstances?

    As for juries being always reliable in the most obvious cases, just remember what happened to O. J. after he murdered those two. Juries in the most controversial cases do what is expected of them.

    The Murphy case is political justice of the worst sort.

    And to show what a scumbag O’Caalaghan is, I shall try to link the article again:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/ira-informer.shtml

  • Peter Brown

    “As for juries being always reliable in the most obvious cases, just remember what happened to O. J. after he murdered those two.”

    THF – aren’t you the person who complained so bitterly when after Ward’s acquittal UMH persisited in implying he had some involvement?

    Are you a hypocrite then? Or just racist?

  • Sorry, Big Maggie, for making the race closer, but I must respond to Peter Brown’s spin too. Big Maggie, you will just have to keep the other one in the lead.

    PB, I am neither a hypocrite nor a racist: just a seeker of truth and justice

    I have explained on the other thread that justice was not done in the Murphy jury trial because the Irish government bribed the key witness, Sean O’Callaghan, by reducing his sentence for all kinds of viuolent crimes by 533 years, so that he would give false, but convincing claims in the libel trial that Thomas ‘Slab’ Murphy brought against The Times.

    Justice was, consequently, not achived in that trial, as it wasn’t in the OJ Simpson one.

    As for the one against Chris Ward, it was such a miscarriage of justice that the presiding judge stopped it in mid course.

    You, in sum, are just a troublemaker!

  • Blair

    Trowbridge,

    We have established that you are not in favour of jury trials (at least not when they don’t go your way). What alternative do you propose?

    Can you provide any evidence of the Irish government bribing O’Callaghan in order to get him to give evidence against the innocent farmer Slab. Can you explain why they have such a gripe against this innocent farmer?

  • I have great reservations about jury trials, though not when they don’t go my way – as I have no such ways – but when they generally don’t appear to be correct.

    How many people still think that justice was served when OJ was acquitted of murdering his wife and Ron Goldman?

    Actually, jury trials, especially in criminal cases, are so bad that defendants accept plea bargains which send themselves to prison rather than face the whims of juries. And in tort cases, they are usually worse.

    Here in Sweden, the trials are with lay and professional judges, and they seem to do much better in achieving fair verdicts, though it often requires appeals to higher professional courts to achieve a final result.

    As for the miscarriage of justice in the Murphy libel trial, he no sooner started it than Sean O’Callaghan was released from prison after having served only 6 years of a 539-year sentence for no reason other than helping defeat Murphy’s case against The Times.

    No fair government would ever have allowed him to appear after his release from prison under these conditions, and if he had been allowed to appear while still serving time, the Irish government should have provided a full appraisal of his claims – stating pretty much that he was a witness of questionable reliability whose stories seemed dubious.

  • Steve

    Trow

    I think justice was served by the jury in the OJ trial

    The prosecutor completely failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that OJ was the murderer. They only proved he could have been the murderer but thats not the american standard of justice

  • Sam Graham

    Maybe Gerry could sue the Guardian also (obvioulsy the vatican did were not able to edit this one like they did the wilkipedia):

    Gerry Adams yesterday denied that he had ever been a member of the IRA amid a series of fresh allegations in a book by the journalist Ed Moloney.
    Mr Moloney, author of A Secret History of the IRA, claims the Sinn Fein president took over the Provisionals’ Belfast brigade in late 1972, and that he had previously set up a special IRA unit which murdered and secretly buried at least nine people in the 1970s and early 1980s, the so-called Disappeared.

    Mr Adams said he had consulted lawyers about the book. He said: “I find some of the claims outrageous and think some people will be deeply upset by a mixture of innuendo, recycled claims, nodding and winking. I have not been and am not a member of the IRA.”

    Senior police sources allege that Mr Adams and fellow MP Martin McGuinness have been members of the IRA’s seven-strong ruling army council for years, and security and republican sources were incredulous at Mr Adams’ denials yesterday.

    Last year, Mr McGuinness admitted that he was second-in-command of the IRA’s Derry brigade when soldiers shot dead 13 unarmed men on Bloody Sunday in January 1972.

    But he said the Provisionals took their weapons out of the Bogside to avoid confrontation with the army, and refused to give any further details of his paramilitary career.

    Mr Adams, however, has always denied being part of the IRA, but last year, Dolours Price, one of the 1973 London bombers, was quoted by the hardline Republican Sinn Fein president, Ruairi O’Bradaigh, at a republican commemoration as saying Mr Adams was her commanding officer at the time and it was “too much” to hear senior Sinn Fein members deny their history.

    Anthony McIntyre, a writer on republican affairs, noted recently that the west Belfast MP’s autobiographical book, Before the Dawn, was “like George Best writing a book about football without mentioning Manchester United.” However Mr Moloney, a journalist with the Dublin-based Sunday Tribune, believes Mr Adams transformed from a young paramilitary to a towering figure in Irish political history.

    Although details of the IRA campaign will enrage Northern Ireland unionists, Mr Moloney thinks the overall picture is of a brilliant strategist who manoeuvred the IRA into the peace process.

    “To begin with, he was 22 years old and the war was raging in Belfast and the place was full of anger,” he said. “I think they genuinely believed at that time they could win the war. But he began to realise they were in for a long war and his mind turned to the political process.

    “There are elements of Adams’ character that some people will find distasteful, his ruthlessness for example. But it was probably his ruthlessness which enabled him to push forward the peace agenda.

    “He stands there with people like Michael Collins as a very significant figure. He is a man of strategic genius. I think he should have won the Nobel prize for what he did.”

    The book also reveals how the IRA came within a whisker of murdering Sir Geoffrey Howe when he was foreign secretary, and how the SAS killing of three IRA members in Gibraltar may have been linked to this.

    British intelligence thwarted the attempt to assassinate one of Margaret Thatcher’s most senior ministers, now Lord Howe, in a massive car bomb in Brussels in January 1988, heralding the start of a vicious new campaign of violence in mainland Europe.

    But Mr Moloney finds it puzzling that the security forces did not move against the IRA in Brussels, and given the SAS shootings of Mairead Farrell, Danny McCann and Sean Savage in Gibraltar two months later, he suggests that Mrs Thatcher knew weeks in advance of the IRA plan to blow up a military band in the colony and wanted to give them a “bloody nose” there instead.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/oct/01/northernireland.northernireland

  • Without going back through the trouble Ed Moloney caused GA over “the unknowns” issue – what put GA between a rock and a hard place, given the connivance by the Irish government in the freeing of its informer Sean O´Callagan to nail not only Thomas ‘Slab’ Murphy but also GA – it should be noted, thanks to Sam Graham’s additions, that his book itself is just a hodge-podge of disinformation.

    For starters, he based his whole book on the capture of the Eksund, without seriously trying to determine who ‘Steak knife’ really is, only suggesting feebly that he might be Martin McGuinness. Moloney, as far as I can see, never even mentions the top tout in the PIRA’s Council code name – what set the stage about how many such knives there are, and who they might be.

    Then look at what Graham added, though he made no mention of the Enniskillen bombing triggering what he did mention.

    It got the British government involved in setting up ‘Steak knife’ for the attempt on Howe, and then the cull on The Rock – what got them only blowback because of overkill rather than ‘Steak knife’ who went on to achieve a negotiated settlement with the Brits.

    You would think that given the importance of Enniskillen – what the Provos did in revenge for the betrayal of the Eksund – Moloney would have said something about it, especially when you look at his index – where one is told that it can be found under PIRA operations.

    Unfortunately, when one looks there, there is no such reference.

    The book, in sum, is just a bunch of wild cherry-picking, apparently to suit Moloney’s masters, the bosses in Downing Street and Whitehall.

  • Take back the bit about there being no mention of Enniskillen. Moloney blamed it all on the Northern Command, rather than local activists in several places, angered by the betrayal. (p. 347)

  • picador

    Listen up you libellous unionists.

    Gerry was never in the IRA. During the 1970s he was a ‘community organiser’ in Ballymurphy. He did a lot of work ‘behind the scenes’ – organising, good deeds, social work, yogic flying, walking on water, etc. As for that photo – well its a fake.

    Seriously though, I can’t believe this discussion is even taking place , let alone that certain contributors are so brainwashed / mendacious as to deny what is self-evidently true.

    When Gerry Adams denies that he was ever in the IRA he is insulting us all. When he calls for ‘truth’ he is guilty of the most mind-boggling affrontery. The man is a compulsive liar and those he lies to most are his own supporters.

    Ciaran, pat, etc. – WISE UP!

  • ciaran

    Picador, All I have done is ask for proof which still has not been produced. It may be self evident to you but I prefer proof, to following others opinion sheeplike.
    Its a bit like believing in god, I don’t, unless I get proof, Not a big believer in faith.
    Getting close to post no. 100

  • Blair

    “Here in Sweden, the trials are with lay and professional judges, and they seem to do much better in achieving fair verdicts, though it often requires appeals to higher professional courts to achieve a final result.”

    Trowbridge,

    You prefer the Diplock system then?

    “As for the miscarriage of justice in the Murphy libel trial, he no sooner started it than Sean O’Callaghan was released from prison after having served only 6 years of a 539-year sentence for no reason other than helping defeat Murphy’s case against The Times.”

    Do you have any sort of evidence to back up your claim that O’Callaghan was released specifically to sink Murphy? Can you give me any kind of inkling as to why the Irish government would have a problem with a man who you reckon, laughably, was nothing more than an innocent farmer?