It’s all the fault of the Brits?

Gerry Adams has blamed the Secretary of State and Ministry of Defence for the issues around the Belfast homecoming parade. In supposed generosity he argues a reception and religious service should have been good enough for families and supporters of the returning servicemen and women (i.e. behind closed doors and ignores the impracticality of how thousands could attend such events).

“A civic reception and a religious service would have provided families and supporters of the British army with the opportunity to welcome back their loved ones.”

Meanwhile the Moderator of the Presbyterian Church has sent Gerry Adams a letter criticising calling for the Sinn Fein protest to be cancelled:

“It is not in a spirit of triumphalism that we welcome these soldiers home but in a spirit of thanksgiving, sharing in the relief of their families that their loved ones are safe.”

The DUP has called for the BBC and UTV to televise the event:

“I know that many people have taken a close interest in this event and will be attending the parade in Belfast on Sunday: however I believe there is sufficient support throughout the community for this event to be broadcast live as it happens. People from all around Northern Ireland will want to watch as we pay tribute to our soldiers returning home from such difficult and hazardous missions.”

  • Dave

    I think Kevin Myers hit the sectarian nail on its ugly head when he said that ‘republicans’ hate to see the British army marching through Belfast because it makes it clear which army is defeated and which one isn’t.

  • Driftwood

    Couldn’t all the SF protestors be given free tickets to see the new James Bond movie, which erm… celebrates British security sevice activity worldwide..but then Eirigi might be picketing outside the cinema.

  • One would surely have doubts as to whether or not UTV would have the number of staff available to cover such an event.

  • This will be very damaging for the city in PR terms. We just spent several hundred thousend on a new brand and now it seems some want us to go right back to the old one. More on http://www.oconallstreet.com

  • Dec

    I think Kevin Myers hit the sectarian nail on its ugly head when he said that ‘republicans’ hate to see the British army marching through Belfast because it makes it clear which army is defeated and which one isn’t.

    Well Kevin’s good at facile and baseless comaprisons. I believe it’s referred to as Polemicism. Hopefully not everyone thinks might that his point, comparing one of the world’s largest armies (including a Navy and airforce) with several hundred dedicated volunteers, is a serious one.

    In supposed generosity he argues a reception and religious service should have been good enough for families and supporters of the returning servicemen and women (i.e. behind closed doors and ignores the impracticality of how thousands could attend such events).

    Worked for ex-RUC personnel and families at St Anne’s Cathedral a few weeks ago. Of course, this being Fair-Deal, with his attendant myopia to loyalist activies, his ‘report’ does not mention the escalation of tensions due to loyalist paramilitaries now urging confrontation with nationalists. The original coat-trailing intentions of this march have now been laid bare.

  • Sinn Fein are wrong and the sooner they admit it the better.

    Have a scan through the fringe republican forums on the net and read some of the threads – they are intent on a riot – Sinn Fein should realise this and act accordingly – i.e. call off the protest.

  • polypocket

    I Think the actions of Sinn Fein around the homecoming parade has been appalling and down right offensive. For many years I have backed the peace process arguing we should give Sinn Fein the opportunity to move away from the past to create a peaceful shared future where everybody feels safe and included. Unionists more sceptical, perhaps who have lost close family members and friends have been told by Sinn Fein politicians and the like that they must move on yet does Sinn Fein have to move on…of course not. The welcoming home of brave young men and women from both communities who have been through the ordeal of war that I cannot even begin to imagine has been hijacked by Sinn Fein to again roll out their sectarian bigoted retoric. the retoric that has never gone away despite their signing up to the peace process.

    If the protest is about opposition to the war then have it another day, the war in Iraq and Afghanistan will not be ended by confrontation on the streets of Belfast.
    If it is just an opportunity to abandon their their duty to provide political leadership in favour of showing their more dissident friends just how much they still hate the brits… then be honest and tell it how it is.

  • fair_deal

    Dec

    “Worked for ex-RUC personnel and families at St Anne’s Cathedral a few weeks ago”

    When they dedicated a window IN that Cathedral. There are regular public parades by regimental associations etc so the homecoming parade is not an unusual practice. Also the number of people wishing to attend this particular event could not be contained in the Cathedral or the Waterfront for that matter.

  • … the number of people wishing to attend this particular event could not be contained in the Cathedral or the Waterfront for that matter.

    Why not have it at their barracks? Surely they would have plenty of space – parade grounds – and plenty of parking for family members.

    The whole thing stinks of an attempt to recreate a Roman victory parade. All that is lacking are the cowering defeated enemies in chains, paraded before the baying mob before being put to death.

  • circles

    Good idea Driftwood – Couldn’t all the British Army supporters be given free tickets to see the new James Bond movie, which erm… celebrates the brutality of the British security sevices with an incomprehensible storyline and no real excuse needed for acts of random violence. That’ll at least please the foam-at-the-mouth coat trailing brigade who are no doubt squirming with pleasurale excitement at the very thought of a big heavy british military presence on the streets of Belfast once gain – hence the DUP call to get it televised. (After orange-fest, anybody up for war-fest, or blood-fest?)

    For the families, who are nderstandably glad to see their sons and daugters back from an ill-conceived and dangerous mission, surely a civic reception and church service would be acceptable – giving them more time to spend with their returned loved ones, rather than parading them as “british exhibit a”.

  • fair_deal

    “Why not have it at their barracks? ”

    1. They have been invited to come to the city.
    2. It’s not one unit or one service it’s all three of the services so they don’t have ‘their barracks’.

    “The whole thing stinks of an attempt to recreate a Roman victory parade. All that is lacking are the cowering defeated enemies in chains, paraded before the baying mob before being put to death.”

    LOL. Imaginations are really becoming fevered.

  • Unionists are trying to turn this into some sort of victory parade.
    Will we wait with bated breath for a celebration parade and civic reception for the IRA.
    They actually managed to bring a war to an end.

  • Half Pint

    The whole point of this nonsense is to cause such a fuss that a parade like this will never happen again.

    Hardly the record of a party which has accepted UK rule in N.I.

  • nevermindhilad

    ill be marching shoulder to shoulder with my hero…jamie from irishrepublican dot net…hes the man!!!

  • Hardly the record of a party which has accepted UK rule in N.I.

    Well spotted!

    That’s becazuse they haven’t “accepted UK rule in N.I.”, they accepted a temporary pause, subject to parity of esteem and power-sharing. Since the unionists are dragging their feet on their side of the bargain, you cannot be surprised that SF aare re-thinking their temporary pause.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    Folk should realise that persistant marching, military bands, military tattoos, wars, battles, commerations etc.. such a major facet of British culture and identity!

    Has anyone ever noticed that there is likely to be a presence of the British military at any major events in the UK, whether it be sporting events, etc…even the annual ‘panto’ parade for the Lord Mayor of London includes APC’s, marching troops, etc…
    Last Sunday at the American football game at Wembley, there were the troops in khaki fatigues in attendance on the pitch before the game rather than stewards or volunteers, what ye might see elsewhere.
    I remember the opening ceremony of the second Rugby World Cup in 1991 involved the Royal Marines parading around the pitch with fixed bayonets. I bet when London holds the Olympics in 2012 their services will be required as they’ll be a crucial part of the opening ceremony!

    Rather than be upset, folk should just accept it! Like it or not, the British army is a part of the backbone of British culture and British folk in NI are no different to folk in Britain!

  • I note in the News Letter that Eoghan was not present when the X Factor contestants visited injured soldiers….

    Two other contestants didn’t attend and the X Factor said that the 3 had filming duties…

    I wonder how the X Factor soldier song sits with people from Dungiven? It would be interesting to open up this angle of the debate especially given the parade and protest issue…

    or is that politicising entertainment?

    just some musings….

  • Dec

    The whole thing stinks of an attempt to recreate a Roman victory parade.

    To be fair, that is far-fetched. Surely the recreation of an Afghan wedding and it’s subsequent bombing by ‘our heroes’ could be staged in Ormeau Park. The whole day could be themed under the title “When thousands of dead civilians isn’t a bad thing”.

  • Steve

    if there are that many going to attend the parade couldnt they have this parade in the rickity old soccer stadium? Atleast in the parts not condemned

  • iluvni

    Seems Sinn Fein havent moved on at all from the Day they bombed the Remembrance Parade in Enniskillen.
    Twenty years later after that day which shamed them in the eyes of the world, they are at it again.

  • Galway Man

    Blinding, we in the Republic would never permit nor tolerate a civic reception for the so called IRA. The Irish Defence Forces are the sole legitimate forces of the Irish State under the guardianship of a democratically elected President and Parliament.

    The people of the Republic and Northern Ireland agreed in the referendum of 1998 that the constitutional position of Northern Ireland will not be changed unless a majority call otherwise. Therefore Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom.

    Greagoir is absolutely right. The British Armed Forces play a very active role in British life, and therefore, the rights and identity of the British people who live in the northern state should be recognised.

    More and more interaction is taking place between the Irish and British Forces. A mutual respect and appreciation has developed for each other over the past decade. The Union Flag took paramount position at the Garden of Rememberance at an National Act of Rememberance last year. The Irish Tricolour was paraded down the Shankill Road during a military parade!! I look forward to the day the British and Irish Defence Forces march side by side through the streets of Belfast and Dublin to give public recognition to all Irish citizens, north and south, unionist and nationalist for the sacrifices they have given through our shared history.

  • kensei

    iluvni

    If you’ve any information on a bomb, I suggest you go to the police.

  • Driftwood

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7697108.stm

    It seems SF are glad to have the army in Twinbrook, but not in the city centre!

  • ??

    iluvni

    If you’ve any information on a bomb, I suggest you go to the police.

    Posted by kensei on Oct 29, 2008 @ 01:26 PM

    Oh dear, republicans in denial who would have thought………………

  • cynic

    The real problems for Gerry is that, while he may blame Sean Woodward, it’s quite apparent that Woodward doesn’t give a stuff and that the days of being able to run wingeing to Downing Street behind the back of the Secretary of State have long gone. Even the Irish don’t seem to be much fussed on this one.

    Which all brings forward again the fundamental question. What is Gerry Adams for these days? SF seems rudderless and drifts from one disaster to the next. Gerry doesn’t have a seat in Stormont, won’t take up his seat in Westminster and bombed spectacularly in the Republic (electorally I mean). These days he only seems to be wheeled out at times of (self generated and often spurious) crises to issue dire predictions. But these now all sound hollow and repetitive and, when they see the beard appear, people switch off. Even the very nature of today’s homily only points up his decreasing influence.

    SF have dug their own hole on this one. I can see why he is worried as the potential for this to all go wrong is very high and SF will get the blame. Peter Robinson is already playing the ‘this shows SF arent fit for P&J;powers’ line and SF have neatly provided the excuse for a further delay – even before any violence at the weekend.

    Do SF still have a strategy or did someone leave it on a train / plane?

  • Ri Na Deise

    Ya we should move on like good little fenians and allow these vulgar celebrations of state supported murder on our streets…

  • Padraig Caughey

    Since every UVF and UDA man in Belfast and beyond will be attending this march I am not surprised not everyone would have been able to fit into Saint Ann’s. In any case prayer will be the furthest thought from any of their mind. Large marches, flying the Union Jack, carry guns openly,rubbing the Rebels noses in it, having a meeting right next door to the Fenians in the Markets….fun, fun ,fun.

  • A N Other

    Ri Na Deise,

    With a slugger user-name translating as “King of Waterford”, what in the name of Jayzess is someone who hails from far-flung place such as Tramore & Dungarvan doing using a phrase such as “Ya we should move on like good little fenians…”

    FFS, you grew up at least 300km from Belfast!!

    Certainly, when I socialise around the ‘Shaft, I certainly don’t tell people I actually hail from the Deise meself…wouldn’t want to get confused with a “12-over par bogey” like yerself…

  • Padraig Caughey

    Since every UVF and UDA man in Belfast and beyond will be attending this march I am not surprised not everyone would have been able to fit into Saint Ann’s. In any case prayer will be the furthest thought from any of their minds. Large marches, flying the Union Jack, carrying guns openly,rubbing the Rebels noses in it, having a meeting right next door to the Fenians in the Markets….fun, fun ,fun.

    A miniature 12th in fact, but with the additional charm of a good dig up with Teagues. no wonder big crowds are expected.

  • Ri Na Deise

    AN Other

    Unlike too many free-staters I never bought into the whole ‘its up north so it doesnt matter’ philosophy. Belfast as an Irish city is as much mine as my native Waterford city is. These days I choose to make my home in O’Neill country so you’ll forgive me not developing the usual southerners ‘blind eye’.

  • IRIA

    What a great victory Afghanistan has been! Welcome home heroes who have put away the Taliban/Al Qaeda for good!! Er…wait…

  • Dec

    It’s becoming increasingly clear just how many Unionists here, can’t wait for some violence on Sunday.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “Which all brings forward again the fundamental question. What is Gerry Adams for these days? SF seems rudderless and drifts from one disaster to the next. Gerry doesn’t have a seat in Stormont, won’t take up his seat in Westminster and bombed spectacularly in the Republic (electorally I mean). These days he only seems to be wheeled out at times of (self generated and often spurious) crises to issue dire predictions. But these now all sound hollow and repetitive and, when they see the beard appear, people switch off. Even the very nature of today’s homily only points up his decreasing influence.”

    Well Unionists should be rather pleased with all this then. The wind has been taken outta the Shinners sails. Unionists should be over the moon that SF are in such a ‘rudderless’ position. This, as well as the impasse on the Irish Language Act and the devolvement of Peace and Justice powers, everything should be mighty fine within the Unionist camp!

    In anyway how anyone could NEVER have predicted such a situation ever arising was indeed very naive. Perhaps folk should be prepared to dig in for the very long haul ahead of NI political discourse, differences, disagreement, etc.. For there will be years and years of it ahead.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “Since every UVF and UDA man in Belfast and beyond will be attending this march I am not surprised not everyone would have been able to fit into Saint Ann’s. In any case prayer will be the furthest thought from any of their mind. Large marches, flying the Union Jack, carry guns openly,rubbing the Rebels noses in it, having a meeting right next door to the Fenians in the Markets….fun, fun ,fun.”

    Indeed, which is why all Irish Nationalists/Republicans should leave them to it and stay at home for the few hours.

  • A N Other

    Ri Na Deise,

    If you think Belfast is such an “Irish City”, why not try heading down the Shankill & analogising that thoroughfare with the rolling hills of Ballybricken, Oznam Street & Gracedieu…

    …And then when you’ve checked yourself OUT of A&E;, you can them remind us all how “Irish” that part of Belfast really is.

    And as for the “Free-Stater” comment?? Excuse me now “butty”, but do you not see the irony on one hand of blasting me for addressing you with a dose of realism, & then turning around & calling someone from your home City with a petty name that is solely used in NI??

    Answers on the back of a ham-salad blaa, please….

  • Free State 26

    To be fair ‘Free Stater’ is a pretty popular pejorative term for West Brits thoroughout the 26.

  • Daisy

    I just assumed SF decided to do hold a protest because they are leaking support to the dissidents. I’ve heard some interviews with various SF reps and none of them seem terribly committed to it (and I’m sure I’ve detected some embarrassment in certain quarters).

    Will it be violent? I think SF will do their utmost to retain control. They only unleash the mob when it suits them, and it won’t this time. Violence will come from the dissident groups and loyalists who go along just to stir things up.

    It’s a shame they’re using the anti-war guise rather than just admitting it’s an anti-Brit parade. I am genuinely anti-war and I marched in protest at the Iraq invasion, but there’s no voice for me on Sunday because it’s been drowned out by the chants of Brits Out.

  • Ri Na Deise

    AN Other

    You a Myers fan?
    Dont be tainting a good blaa with that salad crap.

  • cynic

    Ri Na Deise

    Perhaps we should move on like good little prods and hide our celebrations and culture away for fear of provoking protests by those who for 30 years supported murder on our streets?

    Sorry…..naw…..don’t think so.

    You need to remember…… we won the war. Yes, I know that’s a shock but just sit back and rejoice in the freedoms and benefits that British Citizenship brings to you.

  • Cynic,

    Adams is still an MLA. As for who won the ‘war’, by which I assume you mean the Troubles, the answer is simple – everybody lost. Division and sectarianism is more entrenched within society than it was. The Provos failed to force a united Ireland, but the unionists lost their one party state. The real losers of course being the ordinary working people who fell victim to sectarianism in all its forms, from the state and from the terrorists. And their cheerleaders, and those so-called constitutional politicians who lined up with them when it suited, and provided political justification for what was going on.

  • Ri Na Deise

    We’ll see who won. Enjoy your ‘wee country’ while its here. Ye havent too long left.;-)

  • A N Other

    Comparing me to Kevin Myers is just about the worst insult that could be thrown at anyone on these pages….

    I’ll elaborate on the point I touched upon above:-

    We grew up approximately 300kms from where the brunt of “The Troubles took place; in our city, the main topics of conversation during the dark period
    since the late-1960s in NI in Waterford would’ve been:-

    – the slow & painful demise of industries such as “The Glass” (i.e. Waterford Crystal to everyone else) & the Jute Factory;

    – dinner dances in the Granville; nights-out on the beer in Breens;

    – wet Summer weekends in Tramore;

    – the periennial hidings dished-out by Cork to Waterford in the Munster Senior Hurling Championship (with ’82 & ’83 being particularly painful “days-at-the office”…);

    – the development of the Dunmore Road (“Hav ya seen the size of dem houses, boy?!?”;

    – the growth of the Industrial Estate (and New Northern Extension!);

    – the annual financial troubles of Waterford Utd, etc, etc….

    NI simply wasn’t a staple diet of conversation in Waterford over the last 40 years – and it certainly isn’t now!

    People were wrapped-up in their on daily travails & local worries. An attitude of “isn’t it horrible? – but I’m glad it isn’t on my doorstep….”

    So to hear someone who grew up with a completely different set of local social priorities & topics; then coming full circle to lambast a fellow Deise-ite because
    they refuse to buy-into a set of political circumstances that neither of us were rared-upon, baffles me.

    You remind me of a chap I went to primary school with – I bumped into him at home a few years ago. He’d just finished 9 months of living in Derry, was now a committed SF member & even had a newly-acquired Derry accent!! Born & bred in Waterford, he was quick to tell me (in his new accent) that it was “our duty” (!)
    to change things in NI!!

    Calling Belfast an “Irish City” actually ignores the democratic will of 90% of the people on this island (you know, the people who democratically supported the GFA…)

    I never agreed with the Plantation when I diligently studied it’s cause & effect for Leaving Cert History; but it’s consequences are most definitely “here-to-stay”
    (until a GT 51% mandate for a UI is democratically achieved in a border poll); maybe you would be best served remembering that (and a part of your history
    & upbringing) rather than trying to involve yerself in a historical, tribally-based sectarian scabble that was a different world away from both of our own upbringings.

    Regards,

    ANO

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “You need to remember…… we won the war. Yes, I know that’s a shock but just sit back and rejoice in the freedoms and benefits that British Citizenship brings to you.”

    BTW, what war is that cynic? …The Battle of the Boyne, WWI, WWII?
    Surely you are not refering to ‘The Troubles’ as a ‘war’. I thought all Unionists didn’t recognise ‘The Troubles’ as a ‘war’ as such and would never confer on it the ‘honourable’ title!

  • Ri Na Deise

    AN Other

    I laughed out loud at a lot of those. Growing up in the 80s and 90s myself the politics of the 6 counties was never far from our discussions. Maybe a younger generation decided to reject the unnatural division of the civil war.
    And being a younger hurling supporter am more accustomed to us meting out the beatings to Cork these days.
    The glass has been dying on its feet as long as I recall and the Jute is now revived in another capacity. People change as do the times.;-)

  • A N Other

    Ri Na Deise,

    Am alot younger than you think – family born 7 bred in the town; so all of the above were topics of conversation in my house growing up.

    As for the hurling reference – W’Ford beat Cork in Thurles in July 2002 on a miserable day (Browner fluked a goal from 45 yards that skided-off of the greasy sod)

    Up until then, we hadn’t beaten Cork in a long time in the Munster SHC (the 1999 fiasco when Mickey O’Connell scored 8 from midfield also springs readily to mind….)

    I’d suggest we may have moved in different circles when growing up – while you were perhaps too busy hanging on every word from the likes of Davy Cullinane & Brendan Mansfield, I was too busy “up the roads for the ciste” with a sloitar & hurl…

    My original point still stands: Northern politics are rarely, if at all discussed in “deepest Mexico” – take a lad from either the Antrim Road or White City, & throw him in longside a chap from Barrack Street “in the town” & it won’t be politics they’ll be discussing…different worlds…

  • ulsterfan

    Getting back to the protest I wonder how many SF supporters will be at the USA consulate to show their disapproval of American foreign policy and I suppose the spin doctors of SF have notified CNN and Fox News so that their friends it the States can know what is happening back home.
    Don’t be shy Republicans to show approval for the Taliban.

  • A N Other

    Sorry UlsterFan,

    Apologies for going-off of topic.

  • eranu

    “the new James Bond movie, which erm… celebrates the brutality of the British security services”

    “The whole thing stinks of an attempt to recreate a Roman victory parade.”

    im getting images of daniel craig in a toga marching past the city hall with an RIR brass band playing the james bond music. it must be “Double O Oppression” !!

  • Democratic

    I wonder how many true anti-war pacifists/activists will miss out by being replaced by Republican supporters who only hate certain wars….why not call the counter protest what it is – Brits Out says the combined voices of Irish Nationalism in their various guises….anti-war – not likely…

  • heck

    It is not in a spirit of triumphalism that we welcome these soldiers home but in a spirit of thanksgiving, sharing in the relief of their families that their loved ones are safe.”

    Fair deal -you don’t believe this crap. This is coat trailing pure and simple

    maybe the next time SF should say

    It is not in a spirit of triumphalism that we welcome these soldiers home from jail but in a spirit of thanksgiving, sharing in the relief of their families that their loved ones are safe and remembering their colleagues who died in the H blocks.”

    would you buy it and would’nt this site be red hot with faux unionist outrage and comments about “victims” “bombings” “civilian deaths”.

    I think it is about time unionists pulled their heads out of their asses and recognised the colonial history of the British Army

  • cynic

    “Adams is still an MLA”

    Yes but so are so many others. In NI politics now he doesnt have a clear platform. He’s Party President but what’s his role other than as some sort of political Banquo’s Ghost?

    Clearly the plan was to try to leverage him into a national figure on the Irish Stage but that fell flat on its nose at the TV audition in the run up to the election. So where now?

    Also, I repeat. What’s the strategy on this march? Why the protest? Why didnt they think this and so may other things through?

  • picador

    It’s all the fault of the Brits?

    That’s what I’ll be thinking on Monday morning if anyone gets seriously hurt.

  • Republic of Connaught

    I never agreed with the Plantation when I diligently studied it’s cause & effect for Leaving Cert History; but it’s consequences are most definitely “here-to-stay”
    (until a GT 51% mandate for a UI is democratically achieved in a border poll); maybe you would be best served remembering that (and a part of your history & upbringing) rather than trying to involve yerself in a historical, tribally-based sectarian scabble that was a different world away from both of our own upbringings.

    That’s rubbish you’re talking, ANO. What happened in Belfast and across the north is 10 worlds away from the lives of people in Great Britain more than it is to Southern Irish people. We’re brought up on Irish history because it’s OUR history. People in Britain know scratch about the history of the people on this island, Nationalist or Unionist, and they care even less.

    UTV and BBC NI are “British” not “Irish” stations yet both are available and very popular across Ireland. Are they watched in Britain?? I can’t imagine the old Gerry Kelly show being too appealing to people in Newcastle or Dundee or Cardiff yet he was very popular across his own island. Why? Because it was a Belfast chat show made for an IRISH audience and that’s where it was popular – in Ireland.

    So to tell a lad from Waterford or anywhere in the 26 he doesn’t understand the North because of where he was brought up in Ireland and should walk down the Shankill road to see Belfast isn’t Irish is nonsense. If Belfast is so “British” would an East End cockney walk down the Falls road with a Union Jack singing about the Queen and come out alive?

    At present Belfast is an Irish city under British jurisdiction. Or was Dublin not an Irish city either when it was in the UK?

  • Dave

    “So to tell a lad from Waterford or anywhere in the 26 he doesn’t understand the North because of where he was brought up in Ireland and should walk down the Shankill road to see Belfast isn’t Irish is nonsense.”

    Does anyone really understand NI? I doubt it. It’s way too complex, and too much is hidden. If the folks with a posteriori expereince of its dynamics have trouble understanding it, you’re at a considerable disadvantage a priori.

    I think sites like this one give southerners a better understanding of it, but only if they are prepared to accept that they are approaching the subject from a position of considerable ignorance which they have confused with with valid knowledge.