Pope reads bible shock

Pope Benedict has started off the reading of the whole of the Bible on Italian state television. The readings which will take a week and will involve 1,200 people will move to a satellite station. The Pope has said that he wants to encourage Roman Catholics to read the Bible.

Here in Northern Ireland Dr. Paisley has welcomed the reading of the Bible but clearly disagrees with the Pope saying:
“Any reading of the Scripture is something that I approve of but unfortunately the Roman Catholic Church draws a line upon the Scriptures in that they are the only interpreter of the Scriptures.” and ӅThe interpretation that the Pope gives of certain Scriptures is in my opinion contrary to the Scriptures themselves.”

Rev. David McIlveen also welcomed the readings with some reservations:

“When people hear that the Church of Rome is reading the Bible, we have to make it clear that from the Protestant perspective, there are major differences between the version of the Bible they read – the (English translation) Douay Version – and the Authorised Version, but the central message is still that ‘the just shall live by faith’, which was what the Reformation centred around.”

“However, the reading of the Scriptures on television would be a very good thing – it would be a change from a lot of the corruption and pollution that are so often transmitted through television screens today.”

There are of course differences between the bibles. For those who are interested here are two positions: one from a Protestant position and one Roman Catholic.

  • Pete

    Well, this is a nice literary topic…

  • ggn

    Turgon,

    I posted the following on another thread earlier today but perhaps you are the man to address it to, I am very interested in the King James Bible and the notion that it is divinely inspired BTW …

    — There was a debate about Irish on talkback yesterday, held in the usuall manner.

    I thought that the question ‘what’s the Irish for Carrickfergus’ asked in all seriousness was a bit stange and then … a text …

    “If English was good enough for Jesus … “

    Now clearly if this man was the almighty then he would be able to speak every language in existenctance or which ever did or ever would exist but!

    Tell me that this was a troll and not a widely held belief.

    I know that some protestant demoninations believe that the King James bible is devinely inspired and thus superior to all other versions (which will be interesting in 150 years when English speakers cant understand it anymore!) but the belief that the people of the Holy Land spoke English surely must seem crazy to us all?

    Jesus as an historical figure would have spoken Amaraic as a venacular, probably had a knowledge of Biblical Hebrew and many have know Greek.

    Despite what Mel Gibson said, he would not have had Latin.

  • Driftwood

    Next week Lord of the Rings?

    Anyone else want to name their fave book of fiction to get a mass reading? Is this on the Richard and Judy book club?

  • OC

    ggn:

    When the Biblical encounter between Jesus & Pontius Pilate took place, in what language did it take place?

  • pauljames

    Personaly I can’t wait until he gets to the Epistle of Barnabas

  • ben

    You going to record the bits about babies being bashed against the rocks and virgins being raped, Turgon? Or are you going to follow on like it’s a cooking show when they go on about mixing barley cakes with “the dung that cometh out of man”?

  • McGinster

    I like the part about killing everyone who suggests the bible may be flawed somewhat (including you entire family if necessary), or the charming story about the man who offered his daughter and servant to be raped and humiliated by a mob rather than give up his (male) house guest.

  • Tazia Doll

    ” or the charming story about the man who offered his daughter and servant to be raped and humiliated by a mob rather than give up his (male) house guest.”

    I didn’t know Detroit was in the bible.

    Yvette Doll

  • McGrath

    Ah, what convenience and comfort the sanitation of each others versions provides. If there was anything left of the word of god in any of the present versions, i.e. had not seen continuous revision by the equivalent of zealous sluggerites down the years, I might read it.

  • truth and justice

    ggn I suspect you wont get an answer from Turgon he only give answers on political questions.

  • ggn

    OC,

    “When the Biblical encounter between Jesus & Pontius Pilate took place, in what language did it take place?”

    Greek. Greek was the lingua franca in the region at the time.

    Alternatively they cvould well have had an interpreter, whose role history rarely records.

  • Half Pint

    ggn,

    I have heard the idea that the KJV is divinely inspired. However, this is very much limited to a lunatic fringe (mostly Americans). Personally, I believe that the KJV is the best translation of the Bible into English. One of the reasons for this is the belief of the translators that the Scriptures in the original languages was inspired. It is not, however, divinely inspired.

  • religikensei

    Actually, I quite like the Book of Wisdom and think it’s a shame Prods don’t actually count it. Perhaps they might be less inclined to go off on one over them homer-sex-uals:

    23: But thou hast mercy upon all; for thou canst do all things, and winkest at the sins of men, because they should amend.

    24: For thou lovest all the things that are, and abhorrest nothing which thou hast made: for never wouldest thou have made any thing, if thou hadst hated it.

    25: And how could any thing have endured, if it had not been thy will? or been preserved, if not called by thee?

    26: But thou sparest all: for they are thine, O Lord, thou lover of souls.

    Not the Catholic Church pays enough heed, mind.

  • ggn

    HP,

    My view is this. Christians have the right to value which ever text.

    The problem that I would have with the KJV is that the language is not entirely clear for modern readers, and in approx 100-150 it will be virtually unintelligable, this process is speeded up as the bible is read less and less (In Britian at least).

    It will be an interesting debate.

    From a linguistic point of view, not a theological one, there is a widespread understanding that the KJV is fundamentally based on the Latin texts rather than from the original texts.

  • Half Pint

    “From a linguistic point of view, not a theological one, there is a widespread understanding that the KJV is fundamentally based on the Latin texts rather than from the original texts.”
    Do you think so? I do not share that understanding although I do know that Jerome’s Vulgate had an influence the Textus Receptus was also crucial. Although the biggest influence was undoubtedly Tyndale.

    Re language – I don’t think there is any danger of it becoming “virtually unintelligible”. Children all over NI learn passages from it every week.

  • ggn

    “Re language – I don’t think there is any danger of it becoming “virtually unintelligible”. Children all over NI learn passages from it every week.”

    They may well do but the language of the bible grows more detached from venacular English with each passing day.

    A natural process which cannot be stopped.

    Surely you must recongise that there is a difference between ‘learning passages’ and understanding?

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    The pope reading the bible on the telly!

    …..kinda like Jackanory then.

  • francesco

    No Pope in our town
    Roma libera dal vaticano!

  • Rory

    Turgon,

    Those explainations of the differences between protestants and catholics were all very good but both failed to mention the crucial difference, which everyone in NI at least understands. And that is: “Themmuns have their eyes too close together”

  • Rory

    I should add that my above remarks were divinely inspired and will probably soon receive a diocesan imprimatur which clears them as fiiting for Christians to read.

  • Half Pint

    ggn,
    “Surely you must recongise that there is a difference between ‘learning passages’ and understanding?”

    O yes, of course. However, I don’t believe that a child of 6 or 7 will have difficulty understanding the passages they are taught in the average Sunday school. Of course, passages from some books, say Ezekiel, would cause problems but this is because they are obscure in any language. As the Scriptures themselves say, there are “some things hard to be understood” 2 Peter 3:16.

  • Mike

    Half Pint

    Have to say as a young kid, I really didn’t have much understanding of the Lord’ Prayer (“hallowed be thy name”…”thine is the kingdom”) or John 3:16 (“only begotten son”) that we learnt as passages, presumably from the KJV. We were given Bibles at the age of seven I think (it was a Presbyterian church), which were Good News versions, made it far easier to follow what the texts were saying (mind you, some of the concepts, rather than the language, were obviously still beyond understanding at that age).

    I’m happily agnostic now, mind you.

  • Greenflag

    The Bible is always relevant to our modern lives . As I read about God talking out of a Burning Bush I immediately saw the connection between President Bush setting fire to half the world because the Moabites had oppressed the USA for half an afternoon on 9/11 🙁

    I’m disappointed that VP Palin’s pastor has not made the burning ‘bush ‘ connection . Next up the ‘jawbone of an ass’ VP candidate and her increasingly ridiculous attempts to restore ‘christian’ values to the White House and Wall St 🙁

  • Half Pint

    Mike,

    I can accept that “only begotten” is difficult to understand. However, it is also hard to explain to a child the meaning behind that – i.e. “begotten” rather than born which brings you into the Trinity and the eternal sonship of Christ. However, that’s difficult for an adult to understand. I have had occasion to explain the difference between “begotten” and born and while they may not understand it fully (who does?) they do grasp that the word has some significance.
    http://www.icr.org/home/resources/resources_tracts_godsonlybegottenson/

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    The Reformation was a great act of protest against a corrupt church. But to put an anachronistic translated book of inconsistancies, inaccuracies, etc…at the very core of the faith was a step toward the demise of the church and the influence of the christian faith in peoples lives. Freethinking the end result, culminating with the American Revolution and War of Independance! And hence the secular state that is England today with ever declining church attendances; the monarch, church, ceremony and pomp are meaningless superficial wallpaper, mere historical trappings.
    With the ‘mystery’ of the church removed, so was the superstitious spell!

    Anyway, bless the poor folk who still savour every word of the bible today!

  • Ulsters my homeland

    [b]ben[/b]

    [i]”You going to record the bits about babies being bashed against the rocks”[/i]

    http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/B19C137.htm

    Use the above dictionary to understand the meaning and please read the context in which it is written.

    The author of that passage is criticizing the Babylonians when they bashed Judean children against stones. It does not say God is happy at destroying the little children, it is predicting that those who conquer the Babylonians ( ie- the Persians under Cyrus) will be happy to do the same as what the Babylonians done onto the Judeans.

    ‘O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy [shall he be][i](Persians)[/i], that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us [i](Judeans)[/i].

    Happy [shall he be][i](Persians)[/i], that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones’

    “[i]and virgins being raped, Turgon?”[/i]

    What are you referring to? You’re probably as guilty as misinterputing the bible as those you try to blame.

    “[i]Or are you going to follow on like it’s a cooking show when they go on about mixing barley cakes with “the dung that cometh out of man”?”[/i]

    It doesn’t say mixing, it says baked. If you want to find out what the passages mean, try to understand them properly with the correct context in which they were wrote. Unfortunately everyone (including Protestant + Catholic) is guilty of interpreting the bible to suit themselves.

  • Greenflag

    ‘Unfortunately everyone (including Protestant + Catholic) is guilty of interpreting the bible to suit themselves.’

    Some are even known to ‘gyrate’ and ‘babble in tongues’ believing this to be the Holy Ghost spaking to them not out of a burning bush in ancient Aramaic but in modern ‘babble ‘ which is equally unintelligible .

    Naive followers and con men at the till as usual . Should be a ‘growth’ industry nowadays jst as it was in the 1920’s and 30’s 🙁

  • Turgon

    ggn,
    Sorry for not having got back to you: I went to bed early and have been busy all day. I was always a fan of the NIV but I must admit under the wife’s influence I have become a fan of the KJV. It is an extremely well written book and is suggested to be up there with Shakespeare as a piece of literature.

    Half pint has already given you most of the explanation as I understand it.

    On a related point I believe the Bible is completely true and the inspired Word of God. There are, however, parts which should not be taken literally but figuratively such as Matthew 18:9 “And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.”

    As such to say that every word in the Bible is literally true is a misunderstanding. It also of course allows people to have differing views of Genesis 1 and yet all be Christians. Indeed I am always very wary of judging anyone’s Christianity: my own is bad enough without criticising anyone else’s.

    Even the strictest of fundamentalists do not treat the Bible the way Muslims treat the Koran whereby my understanding is that they believe that each word is itself inspired and as such can only be properly read and understood in the old Arabic in which it was written.

  • ggn

    Turgon,

    “On a related point I believe the Bible is completely true and the inspired Word of God.”

    Can that be truely be possible if you are reading a translation?

    Much hangs on the interpretations of single words, which a number of words could have been used to translate the original word. We have already had the debate about ‘abomination’ for example.

    In addtion, even in the language you read the bible in, many words in it will suffer a semanitic shift over time.

    “Muslims treat the Koran whereby my understanding is that they believe that each word is itself inspired and as such can only be properly read and understood in the old Arabic in which it was written.”

    Interesting paralell, but the Koran is written in Classical Arabic. Classical Arabic is still a living language in the sence that it is the lingua franca of the Arab world, somewhat removed from the various venacular Arab tongues.

    Classical Arabic being funadamentally anchored to the Koran is almost immune to semantic shifting which of course occur naturally in venacular English.

    Another difference, from a secular view of course is that the Koran was written by Mohammed, the Bible was written by many and translated again and again by a great many more.

    Will you be getting a copy of the planned Ulster-Scots dictionary.

  • Turgon

    ggn,
    Your points are well made and I would agree with most of them. I would not pretend to like all the bits I read but I suppose I have made a concious decision to believe what I do (well actually I do believe in predestination but that is a different debate). Even really nice bits of the Bible sometimes contain pretty scary and dreadful bits, a classic example being the last verse in Psalm 137. Boney M never sang that last verse.

    I will be getting the dictionary and indeed the Bible when it comes out though in honesty I am not that into Ulster Scots. On a related topic to language, now living in Fermanagh I am getting interested in Mid Ulster and West Ulster English. Do you know much about them?

  • ggn

    Turgon,

    I someways I think these are questions of theology and bible study method as much as the linguistics.

    Being a confirmed agnostic it is none of my business though instinctively I am drawn to find out about the ‘original’ documents and frankly I never trust a translation. However I understand that if you are brought up with a family bible in English or whatever I understand that the study of ancient Greek might not seem necessary and certainely somewhat impracticable.

    “On a related topic to language, now living in Fermanagh I am getting interested in Mid Ulster and West Ulster English. Do you know much about them?”

    Hmm. Not sure if the title ‘West Ulster English’ is well known. Mid Ulster English is consider to stretch from below Strabane a; the way across the Downpatrick, different accents yes but nothing fundamental.

    Interestingly, much of Fermanagh is considered Southern Hiberno English.

  • ggn

    Turgon,

    Another thing about modern day interpretation of the Bible is thing that I ponder about is this.

    I you are a lunatic and believe that Jesus spoke English, is a strong supporter of All=Terrain Vehicles, has white skin and is strongly judgemental.

    Surely if the messiah returns in a similar fashion as the last, ie. hangs around with sinners, looks and sounds rather link Osama Bin Laden and rides a low omission donkey to work – Are you going to recongnise him?

  • Turgon

    ggn,
    I do not really think he spoke English but he may have spake Ulster Scots. I also doubt He had white skin and he seems to have been fairly non judgemental.

    Now living in Fermanagh I am of course coming to the conclusion that He is very in favour of 4x4s.

    There is a story told that at the time something or other was opened on a Sunday in the Isle of Lewis an elderly woman was complaining about it. Apparently it was pointed out that our Lord picked and ate grain on the Sabbath and she said something to the effect “Yes and I thought none the better of Him for it.”

    By the way where could I find out about mid Ulster and Hiberno English. I have McAfee’s Concise Ulster Dictionary which has a few pages on it but are there any other texts?

  • Winston Churchill = Terrorist

    Turgon, I recently came across this amusing page detailing some of the Hiberno English spoken in Cavan you’ll hear much of it in Fermanagh too especially if you drink on the sabbath with taigs.

    http://www.iol.ie/~cparker/cavanese.htm

  • Rory

    Greenflag,
    This is synchronosity (as that oul Nazi, Carl Jung might say).

    While I was having lunch with Herself today (al fresco, as we are enjoying a lovely Indian Summer) she brings out her cell-phone and clicks up a photograph she took while in Egypt recently of a healthy, green, leafy bush.

    “What’s that?”, I asked.

    “The Burning Bush”, she says, “fom the Bible”.

    “But”, I says, “it’s not burnt”.

    Shows it’s all a load of hooey really.

  • OC

    Turgon: “(W)ell actually I do believe in predestination but that is a different debate…”

    I would welcome said debate.

    Coming from a Calvinist background, I neverless find Predestination antithetical to the Protestant Work Ethic. And also THE excuse to evade moral responsibilty. It becomes Newcomb’s Problem.

    On the other hand, Free Will seems to suggest that God isn’t all powerful, eg God can’t know, or create, the future. It becomes Pelagius’ Heresy.

    My own soulution (pun unintended but quickly adopted): Of course God CAN know all that will ever happen, and made it so, but God self-denies this knowledge in order to fairly judge our choices.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    If we’re allowed to welcome different debates on here, I would go along with the predestination one, but also a thread for the aethiests, as I believe they pick up ideas outside of the bible and use them against the bible, however they don’t find out the biblical explanation.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    what happens when the Roman Catholic church gets to 1Tim.3 1-6

    “[1] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
    [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
    [3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
    [4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
    [5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
    [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

    and 1Tim.4 1-3

    1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    [2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
    [3] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

  • ggn

    “Concise Ulster Dictionary which has a few pages on it but are there any other texts? ”

    Nay sir i tell ye but Concise Ulster Dictionary is a considerable work for which I habe the greatest respect.

    Ye are are truely the only Slugger carachter that I iI truely hope some time to meet in mortal existence if my Gaelic tongue and manner would so permit.

    I have many questions which sadly can never be out nor answered.

    Good luck!

  • Yvette Doll

    “Greek. Greek was the lingua franca in the region at the time.”

    Latin was the language of the army I feel. Latin didn’t finish until Justinian and by the time of Heraclius, it was kind of official.

    Legions were tossed about like panzer divisions, the fiction of garrisons, was sometimes maintained for five or six hundred years after the home bases had passed into Slav or other hands.

    http://www.bible-history.com/empires/pilate.html

    The inscription is Latin.

  • slartibuckfast

    “The Bible is always relevant to our modern lives . As I read about God talking out of a Burning Bush I immediately saw the connection between President Bush setting fire to half the world because the Moabites had oppressed the USA for half an afternoon on 9/11 🙁 ”

    I’ve always read it that Moses was smoking a big wab of the good stuff and thought it was the voice of wisdom.

  • slartibuckfast

    I wonder what the meaning and context of this Bible gem is:

    Judges 21:10-24 NLT

    So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

    The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.”

    Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “Greek. Greek was the lingua franca in the region at the time.”

    ……was ‘Aramaic’ not the common ‘teanga’ of the time, spoken by Christ himself, the Jews et al. Latin would have been spoken by the Roman occupiers.

    Slartibuckfast
    “I wonder what the meaning and context of this Bible gem is:……”

    S.F.A. I’d say, but I’m sure there are those of the brianwashed variety that could read something into it and find it relevant to their lives today!
    Ah sure bless ’em, the poor sods!

  • ggn

    “……was ‘Aramaic’ not the common ‘teanga’ of the time, spoken by Christ himself, the Jews et al. Latin would have been spoken by the Roman occupiers.”

    Not in Palestine and teh Eastern Empire. The Romans had a very high regard for Greek.

    The Roman soldiers of course spoke Latin amongst themselves but Greek was the lingua franca.

    Aramaic was of course the language of the region with Hebrew also being studied.

    But Pilate and Christ if they ever had a conversation would have spoken in Greek.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    ……good one, ggn

    Cheers!

  • Rory

    What’s all this confusion from avid Bible readers around the term ‘begotten’? I would have expected that they would be more familiar with the term than most for it constantly crops up in the Old Testament where this one constantly begats that one and then he begats the other one.

    As agnostic lawyer, Spencer Tracy asked fundamentalist lawyer, Fredrick March in Inherit the Wind, “How do you think they went about all this begattin’? Did they begat much like you or I begat today?”

    It would be quite simple to explain to children the difference between being born and being begotten. The latter action precedes the former and birth usually takes place about nine months after the begetting business.

    If Jesus was not too fussy to go through the messy business of being born of woman (which the Bible assures us he was) then why should he shirk being the product in the woman’s womb of the normal human begetting process? It is also a wee bit messy, but not nearly as painful and often very nice indeed.

  • Mike

    Rory

    ——————
    While I was having lunch with Herself today (al fresco, as we are enjoying a lovely Indian Summer) she brings out her cell-phone and clicks up a photograph she took while in Egypt recently of a healthy, green, leafy bush.

    “What’s that?”, I asked.

    “The Burning Bush”, she says, “fom the Bible”.

    “But”, I says, “it’s not burnt”.

    Shows it’s all a load of hooey really.
    —————-

    Funny enough I was at St Catherine’s monastery with my girlfriend earlier this year – joked to her that the ‘Burning Bush’ must be authentic since like the biblical account, there were no burn marks on it!

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘..there were no burn marks on it!’

    What, not even a few carpet ones? 😉

    Boom Boom !

  • Rory

    But that’s just it, Mike. Was the bloody thing burnt or wasn’t it? Or was oul’ Moses a circus fire-eater?

    And how will all this affect the price of potatoes? These are the great metaphysical challenges that I suppose must remain unanswered.

  • Rory

    p.s. Wouldn’t this thread have been better titled
    “‘ Paisley…disagrees with the Pope …’ shock!” ?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]I wonder what the meaning and context of this Bible gem is:

    Judges 21:10-24 NLT “[/i]

    slartibuckfast, verse 25 sums it up well.

    “In those days [there was] no king in Israel: every man did [that which was] right in his own eyes.”

  • Slartibuckfast

    “verse 25 sums it up well.”

    I suppose we’ll just have to take your word for it that it does. I happen to think this sums it up better:

    Deuteronomy 3:3-7 (New International Version)
    New International Version (NIV)

    Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
    [NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

    3 So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. 4 At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og’s kingdom in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. 6 We completely destroyed [a] them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying [b] every city—men, women and children. 7 But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “verse 25 sums it up well.”

    [i]I suppose we’ll just have to take your word for it that it does. I happen to think this sums it up better: [/i]

    Don’t take my word for it, read the bloomin thing yourself.

    Slartibuckfast, why did you post Deuteronomy 3:3-7, explain what grievance you have with it?

  • slartibuckfast

    You don’t think this god of yours was complicit in the genocide described in that delightful verse?

  • Greenflag

    ‘How do you think they went about all this begattin’? Did they begat much like you or I begat today?’

    Well Archbishop Ussher of Dublin in the 17th century obviously thought so for based on the premise that each generation begats in a similiar timely sequence and interlude as the preceding one, he estimated that the world was ‘created ‘ on Oct 27th 4004 BC at 6.00pm approx.

    There are ‘devout ‘ folk still extant some indeed holding high positions within the DUP who are adherents and believers in Archbishop Ussher’s methodology 🙁

    As for predestination -this is a no brainer . Starting with an all knowing God then it stands to reason that such a God will know in advance how we will end up ergo no free will thus the Jehovah fruitcakes have designed their heaven to cater for just 144,000 saved souls . The rest of the chosen peoples will just have to gnash their teeth 🙁

    Slartibuckfast ,

    Stop complaining about God;) You are sounding just like one of those old testament Jews who kept bitching on about their treatment in Egypt and when their God delivered them from Pharoaoh they still kept on complaining . No matter what God does it’s never enough – not enough genocide here -too much there – not enough food one day – too much manna the next – Ya wanna sacrifice your son go ahead -no stop – it’s ok -I’ve changed my mind – I’m going to talk out of a burning bush just so you believe I really exist etc etc etc 🙁

    As the Israelites massed on the edge of the Red Sea with Pharoah and his posse close on their tails they knew that their God had been plaguing the Egyptians with locusts and had killed off every one of their first born males . Understandably nervous about their fate at the hands of revengeful Egytians they turned on Moses and said

    There’s no graves in Egypt , you had to take us into the desert to die … What did we tell you in Egypt ? Get off our backs and let us serve the Egyptians because serving the Egyptians is better than dying in the desert ( Exod 14:11-12)

    Moses then of course pulled the outstretched arm and the parting of the waves sleight of hand and the lads scurried across to safety leaving the Egytians to be drowned by the returning waters .