“if they chose not to abide by those democratic rules..”

After blocking the Northern Ireland Executive meeting yesterday, Sinn Féin’s Gerry Adams is in the US again, whether he’s still wearing his cookie monster watch isn’t clear.. And he’s been pointing, again, to an agreement that “falls a semantic mile short of a deadline”. From the SF press release.

Speaking last night in Cleveland the Sinn Fein President updated activists and supporters on the current crisis in the political process. Mr. Adams told his audience that “the current gridlock exists because the DUP has failed to honour commitments it made in the St. Andrews Agreement in October 2006. Specifically, the DUP has refused to agree a timeframe for the transfer of powers on policing and justice from London to the Assembly and Executive in the north.”

SF’s Conor Murphy was trying a similar, if less explicit, line last night on Hearts and Minds, to the bemusement of the DUP’s Nigel Dodds. Part 1 here.

The question remains, will failure to deliver what they promised others cause the Sinn Féin leadership to take the ball away walk out of the NI Executive.. or not? We’re definitely not in May, after all. At the relevant Assembly Committee meeting on Wednesday, NI deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness claimed [possible paraphrasing] that he wouldn’t be “sitting in a corner in a huff..” Adds Whilst I think that quote is accurate, the BBC has this

“This isn’t something we are going to fall out about”, [Martin McGuinness] said. “I don’t believe we are people who are gong to give up on the process. We are going to continue to work to find a way through. “I don’t think that there is anything in either of us which is about to give up on these issues, they are difficult.”

, , , , ,

  • Steve

    Funny he didnt look to amused to me

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Go Gerry, Go Gerry. Keep the Yanks reminded about how oppressed you people really are and they’re bound to forget about the economic meltdown.

    To infinity and beyond!!!

  • Ulsters my homeland

    ……meanwhile back in N.Ireland, where Gerry should be instead of globetrotting, there ultimately will be procedure set out on how to devolve P&J;, but as for dates of completion, who knows, it took IRA/Sinn Fein 10 years to complete their decommissioning.

    It’s good to talk Gerry!

  • Bigger Picture

    I thought Dodds was fantastic and completely ripped Murphy’s argument to shreads. Very impressive, showed the complete stupidity of SF’s argument

  • Ulsters my homeland

    IRA/Sinn Fein are unfit for government. They won’t even consider an ‘open agenda’ back to government.

  • Steve

    UMh

    An open agenda was a smokescreen and Sf was too smart to fall for it

    dupers are going to have to man up, only thing for it

  • Ulsters my homeland

    A smokescreen steve? who are you trying to kid?

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Dodsie has talked the DUP further into a corner – cant see now how they are going to extract themselves. Looks like Stormo’s days are numbered with a Unionist veto on progress again – same old story.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Why don’t we get the Welsh to decide who’s in the wrong? They’ve got experience in devolution and the ins and outs of bringing it about.

    why not ask them who’s in the wrong or who oversold to who?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    who have IRA/Sinn Fein oversold to? Is it the IRA or the people who voted for them?

    I can’t believe all the people who voted for IRA/Sinn fein are aware of their fuck up.

    Wake up people, IRA/Sinn Fein don’t make pledges for you, they make them for the army council. you the voter of IRA/Sinn Fein are being screwed and buggered.

  • skullion

    Another amazing insight yawn from uhm.Sinn Fein only makes pledges for the army council?Is there fuck all for you to do in Cavan but dream up this shite?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Hi skullion, they aren’t fulfilling the wishes of those who voted for them. They’ve went on some other mission since they got the votes of the Irish people.

  • Tir Eoghain Gael

    UMH
    Thought you said before there was no such thing as “The Irish People”.

    You do talk some shite!!

  • skullion

    The people who voted for Sinn Fein would expect devolution of P&J;.Anything else i can help you with?Your homework maybe?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “Thought you said before there was no such thing as “The Irish People”.”

    that was in relation to all the peoples on the island of ireland being one. which I still agree with, there is no such thing as an Irish people. Let the nationalists twist it whatever way they want. who cares?

  • Sinn fein are trying to house train(in equality and inclusiveness)the dup.We all knew that it would be a difficult job but it is surprising everyone how low a base the dupers are starting from.It will take a long time but its not impossible is it!!!!

  • skullion

    Please don’t go to bed yet uhm.I’ve obviously missed this before,and my apologies for that,but just explain your thinking that there’s no such thing as the irish people.

  • Tir Eoghain Gael

    UMH
    “Why don’t we get the Welsh to decide who’s in the wrong? They’ve got experience in devolution and the ins and outs of bringing it about.”

    Good idea brains, sure why dont we get Dewi to flip a coin!

  • skullion

    Sorry the abbreviation should be umh.It’s just i’m stressed about the possibility an entire nation has been misplaced.

  • Tir Eoghain Gael

    Skullion

    They must have disappeared along with the other three counties from his homeland.

  • Pete Baker

    Guys

    Try to focus on the actual ball.

  • Tir Eoghain Gael

    why you deleting posts?
    This topic is talked to death, there is a thread started by mick already, what new info is on this thread???

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “if they chose not to abide by those democratic rules..”

    put it to them right

  • ??

    Sinn fein are trying to house train(in equality and inclusiveness)the dup……………

    blinding, Id be grateful if you could point out the inequalities that exist, please tell us which laws and rights apply to the DUP which do not apply to sinn fein

    thanks

  • skullion

    Perhaps it would be to much to ask the Dup to explain why they won’t devolve P&j;.I think nationalists just want basic manners from unionists.

  • ??

    #

    Perhaps it would be to much to ask the Dup to explain why they won’t devolve P&j;.I think nationalists just want basic manners from unionists.
    Posted by skullion on Oct 03, 2008 @ 09:42 PM

    I thought it was about equality, not manners. And a partnership government means just that , all sides have to agree, not just do something because Sinn Fein says to do it

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “This topic is talked to death, there is a thread started by mick already, what new info is on this thread???”

    What do you mean ‘one night in november’?

  • skullion

    ??

    ok why do you not agree to p&j;and an irish language act?

  • Mick Fealty

    Right,

    Not for the first time, the flash player on my Google Chrome browser has packed up, so I confess I’ve not seen the clip.

    But what is blindingly obvious is that people are starting to take big lumps out of each other rather than any issue raised either by Pete’s post, or the Hearts and Minds snippet.

    If you cannot engage civilly with the arguments, then don’t bother at all… and I’m addressing UMH here as much as his visceral assailants.

    TEG,

    I have no idea whether posts have been removed or not. But if people don’t keep within the rules of civility, they cannot expect to have a moderator sustain their posts. The onus is on the poster to keep with the commenting rules.

  • skullion

    Mick

    As already stated (then deleted)if someone states that there is no no such thing as the irish people then surely that person should be open to rebuke?

  • ??

    Policing and can be dealt with via the policing board.

    An ILA is a waste of time, if an extreme minority want to speak it go ahead, english is the national language.

  • Billy

    UMH

    So Dodds goes on a local program and pitches yet again to the backwoodsmen of the DUP – big deal.

    Gerry Adams sees the bigger picture and gets his tactics right.

    Whether you or Pete like it or not, the prevailing perception among those who matter (the UK, US + Irish govts) is that the current impasse is caused by the DUPs refusing to treat Nationalists/Catholics as equals. It’s not just about P&J;, there are a whole host of issues (as Martin McGuinness detailed on Inside Politics last week) where the DUP are just trying to abuse their power by blocking anything that they see as being beneficial to Nationalists/Catholics.

    As a moderate Nationalist, I can tell you that the vast majority of Nationalists/Catholics see this as a defining point for Unionism and the DUP in particular.

    The UK Prime Minister could not have been any clearer in apportioning blame in his recent speech at Stormont. Let’s face facts – there never has been a lot of support in the UK or Westminster for NI Unionism and recent events (particularly the ridiculous homophobic behaviour of Iris Robinson) have ensured that the DUP maintain their abysmal reputation outside NI.

    In the US, while the current financial turmoil dominates, there is still a Presidential election to be won. Both candidates will be seeking support from the very influential Irish/American lobby – hardly noted for it’s NI Unionist sympathies.

    It is plain from the DUP whinging that they really fear the collapse of the assembly. For Nationalists, this is much less of an issue.

    In history, we have generally got a better deal from the UK govt than from Unionists. Also, if the assembly collapses and the UK govt has to resume Direct Rule – What do you think will happen? – Bring back the B Specials, RUC + UDR, internment, the pre 1968 voting system that disenfranchised Catholics perhaps?

    Think again, the UK (+US) govts will be pissed off if the assembly collapses and it will be seen rightly, whether you like it or not, as down to DUP intransigence and unwilingness to treat Catholics as equals.

    In terms of worldwide support, Irish Nationalism is in a different Universe than NI Unionism.

    If the UK are forced to return to direct rule, they will be only too glad to increase the already substantial input from the RoI into the running of the North. By the time of the next general election in GB, we would have de-facto joint authority.

    That’s why Nationalists don’t really care if the DUP want to maintain their croppie lie down attitude and the assembly collapses. We have much less to lose and much more to gain than Unionists.

    Despite what Unionists may like to think, the only pressure on Sinn Fein is coming from the DUP/UUP and who cares about that.

    However, Peter Robinson is under pressure from the UK, US + Irish govts – Gordon Brown couldn’t have been any clearer about who the UK govt feels is to blame.

    The current DUP panic is evidence that they know this. If this assembly collapses, it will be a very long time before Unionists will be trusted will local powers again.

    The facts are clear.

    The DUP to date have shown themselves unwilling and unable to treat Catholics/Nationalists as equals and participate in partnership govt.

    The Catholics/Nationalists are no longer prepared to accept a croppie lie down attitude.

    International and government pressure is all on the DUP to alter their intransigent attitude.

    If the DUP fails to do so, the assembly will collapse – which will be much more detrimental to Unionists than Nationalists.

    Unionists can rant on as much as they like about St Andrews, the issue has moved on well beyond that.

    The bottom line is that, either the DUP start treating Catholics/Nationalists as equal partners or they lose their precious assembly.

    Either way benefits Nationalists.

  • Mick Fealty

    rebuke their argument, not them. Look, the principle of anonymity is (if reluctantly) accepted as a necessary evil here. If a person is anonymous, then it follows you do not know who they are. Their argument is the one thing visible on the field of play.

    Experience shows that once people start slagging each other the subject never regains the field. The play the ball and not the man rule is a reminded that the subject, not the proponent contains the important matter.

    So please, give it some thought before you guys resume the field of battle. Please?

  • ??

    The DUP to date have shown themselves unwilling and unable to treat Catholics/Nationalists as equals and participate in partnership govt. ..Billy

    Billy please enlighten us to which laws or rights unionists have that nationalists dont that make them so unequal.

    If you want a partnership government you need to agree things with your partners, Stop dictating, remember catholics/nationalists/republicans couldnt bomb and murder unionists in submission, why do you think gurning will do it?

  • ulsterfan

    Billy

    How I wish Nationalists and Republicans would treat Unionists as equals and show some respect for them.
    For a start give them the right to disagree on any subject where they have a different opinion than perhaps to yourself such as P&J;.

  • Steve

    Mick

    Your vaunted play the ball not the man rule is shite you did nothing about baker when he started playing the man and not the ball

  • Pete Baker

    Steve

    “Your vaunted play the ball not the man rule is shite you did nothing about baker when he started playing the man and not the ball”

    Would you like to remind me of when that was exactly? Preferably with a link.

    I’m sure you have a particular example in mind, but I’m just interested in which example you choose..

  • Billy

    ??

    “why do you think gurning will do it?

    It isn’t Nationalists who are “gurning”, it’s Unionists.

    There is a never ending stream of them coming on TV + Radio to complain about the failure of the Executive to meet.

    As I said, given the behaviour of the DUP to date, I personally couldn’t care less if the assembly never meets again. I think you’ll find that most Nationalists/Catholics have little confidence in the DUP to behave in an even-handed manner and , true to form, the DUP have obliged.

    We will certainly get a better deal from the UK govt than we’re getting from Unionists – it’ll clearly be another step towards joint authority. So, it’s no real problem for us if the assembly goes.

    However, it’ll be a disaster for Unionists and the DUP.

    Gordon Brown made it as clear as day who the UK govt sees as the cause of the current impasse – Unionists (the DUP in particular). Clearly, the US + Irish administrations agree with this viewpoint.

    Robinson laughably threatened “serious consequences” if the assembly fails to meet. It hasn’t and what has he done – refused to atttend the Labour and Conservative conferences – WOW!!, that’ll shake the UK establishment.

    Peter Robinson is right about one thing – no-one can force the DUP to play ball.

    However, no-one can force Nationalists to participate in a mockery of an assembly where the DUP clearly only accept them under duress and certainly don’t consider them (or treat them) as equals.

    The inevitable result is that the assembly will collapse and any alternative arrangements will certainly benefit Nationalists more than Unionists. In case you hadn’t noticed there isn’t a lot of sympathy for NI Unionists in the UK (or anywhere else outside NI for that matter).

    You and other Unionists can “gurn” as much as you like – there is no support for the current DUP behaviour outside NI and Robinson is under massive pressure from the 3 govts and the international community to negotiate a deal.

    If he fails to do so, the assembly will fall and, as the Prime Minister has already made clear, the finger of blame will point at Unionists, the DUP in particular.

    So rather than “gurning” I’m enjoying this as I suspect most Nationalists are.

    Unionists are realising that this isn’t pre 1968 any more. They can either start playing the game fairly or they can lose their precious assembly and watch the UK govt move even closer to joint authority.

    You can rant on about the St Andrews agreement and “gurn” all you want – it won’t change the political realities that Unionism is now having to face up to.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    I thought Noel was excellent(I know nothing of his political leanings) but he challenged Dodsie very well on his position and raised a number of points which Conor, who was a tad disappoiting, really should have been raising.

    Pete Baker: Playing the Man.
    you have stuck out the odd foot from time to time after the ball had clearly departed and although there was certainly intent on your behalf you were mainly off target. There are examples of same lying around on the previous posts on this subject.

  • ??

    However, no-one can force Nationalists to participate in a mockery of an assembly where the DUP clearly only accept them under duress and certainly don’t consider them (or treat them) as equals. ……….

    again with the equality crap, please tell us which laws or rights the DUP have that SF dont. If SF want to pass legislation then they need to stop demanding and start talking to their partners in the executive:DUP, UUP, SDLP.

    IF the executive falls, trust me, you wont find many unionists crying over it

  • Steve

    IF the executive falls, trust me, you wont find many unionists crying over it

    Posted by ?? on Oct 04, 2008 @ 11:43 AM

    You will when republicans get exactly what they want from London with out any input from onionists

  • Dewi

    “Good idea brains, sure why dont we get Dewi to flip a coin!”

    Heads….

  • Reader

    Dewi: Heads….
    We win. Shinners never call heads…

  • The Raven

    …or perhaps they just want to put manners on them….

  • ??

    You will when republicans get exactly what they want from London with out any input from onionists
    Posted by Steve on Oct 04, 2008 @ 12:54 PM

    You think, If you think so then walk out and lets see who Gordon needs the most at the moment

  • ??

    You will when republicans get exactly what they want from London with out any input from onionists
    Posted by Steve on Oct 04, 2008 @ 12:54 PM

    So either give us what we want or we`ll bring Stormont down and get what we want? If thats the case Unionists should walk away, if the shinners are so confident of getting their demands met anyway, except this whole thing revolves around policing and justice and if stormont falls then the status quo remains.

  • Steve

    if you don’t know who you are how do you know what you believe

    You think, If you think so then walk out and lets see who Gordon needs the most at the moment

    He doesnt need any of you or he wouldn’t have walked into storomont and told the dup to quit crying in their milk and get on with being the government

    except this whole thing revolves around policing and justice and if stormont falls then the status quo remains.

    But it doesn’t revolve just around P&J;, its just the most public face of it, it also involves ILA and education and more besides

  • ??

    But it doesn’t revolve just around P&J;, its just the most public face of it, it also involves ILA and education and more besides
    Posted by Steve on Oct 04, 2008 @ 06:57 PM

    and unionists arent about to jump just because Gerry says so, again , if youre so confident about getting what you want from Brown then GO! please GO!

  • steve

    I am Canadian, depending which branch of the tree you choose to follow I jumped generations ago

    But yes seeing what has occured in the rest of the UK and what constitutes a modern democracy I am confidant SF will get exactly what they want because what SF wants is just normal table fare everywhere but onionist central

  • Billy

    ??

    Clearly, you are yet another Unionist who lives in a dream world.

    The DUP had 1 chance to play their hand and, by backing the govt, they messed it up.

    Do not underestimate the anger that the DUP aroused within the Conservatives – particularly the usual puerile antics of Iris Robinson and Sammy Wilson in particular.

    As Steve has pointed out, backing Gordon Brown really paid off for the DUP didn’t it? He marched into Stormont and pointed the finger of blame fairly and squarely at the DUP – what a masterstroke from Robinson and co.

    The present govt has, at most, 18 months left to run and I am not aware of anything, particularly, at the moment that is likely to make the DUP “king makers”.

    According to all opinion polls at the moment, the Tories are likely to have an overall majority of 40+ after the next election.

    So, again, the DUP strategy of going out of their way to piss off the Tories is proving to be a real winner.

    For all your false bravado, there is a lot more sympathy in the UK/Westminster and globally for the Irish Nationalist cause than there is for NI Unionism. Unionists are increasingly seen in the UK as homophobic, fundamentalist Christians – one only has to look at the events in Limavady council this week to get the picture.

    People in the UK are far too worried about their jobs and mortgages and a hundred other things to worry about the North (which the vast majority don’t consider to be really a part of GB nayway).

    What people really think about NI is that it costs the UK a fortune which should be spent on what even Margaret Thatcher called “my people” – i.e. not NI.

    I am not claiming that a return to Direct Rule will give Nationalists all we want but it will most certainly be a much better deal for Nationalists than it will Unionists.

    Someone once said (frankly, I can’t remember who) that every time Unionists go back to the negotiating table – they have a weaker position.

    As the years and demographics change, that is certainly true. Even today’s Tories are younger, much more ethnically diverse with (horror of horrors) openly gay MPs. I don’t think they’ll be prepared to back the DUP in their attempts to restore Unionist majority rule.

    Can you show me anywhere, apart from Unionist supporters in NI, where Sinn Fein are getting blamed for the current impasse?

    Anything I have seen or heard, indicates that the DUP are the ones being seen as intransigent and are under pressure. For God’s sake, the UK Prime Minister came to Stormont and said it to their faces.

    If you really believe that nonsense you wrote, then you’re a fool. Frankly, I suspect it’s just false bravado but it isn’t fooling anyone.

    If the assembly goes, it will be a much bigger blow to Unionism than Nationalaism and the DUP will be blamed. We all know it and, as is evident from their increasing panic, they know it too.

  • dewi

    Tails, Tails – it was best of three.

  • Pete Baker

    dewi

    I thought you might have taken the opportunity to correct Mick Hall and steve’s misguided view of devolution [in Wales]?

  • Dewi

    Pete – it’s a process – the difference in Wales is that there is a dynamic….with you there’s an inertia….a dangerous inertia.

  • Pete Baker

    dewi

    “with you there’s an inertia..”

    Crap. I’ve noted what others have said about the current devolution of powers.

  • Dewi

    Ok Pete – elaborate – it does seem dysfunctional at the moment – agree? What do you think needs to happen to make it effective?

  • LURIG

    billy

    Your analysis is spot on. The DUP, TUV and parts of the UUP are playing a sinister game that will eventually rebound on them AS USUAL. Will they EVER learn? Their DNA doesn’t allow for powersharing with ‘Fenians’ and they want to kill it before it grows wings. Unionists see a weak, lame duck Gordon Brown and Labour administration in their death throws and are anticipating a Tory government in 18 months time. They hope that the right wing, anti-Nationalist, anti-Irish Tories will stay true to form, return to their old ways and take ALL policy on the North from their traditional Unionist standpoint. The fact that Lord/Duke/Prince Regent Trimble will formulate most of this Tory policy further excites Unionism and that’s why there is all this talk about UUP/Tory mergers, hence there will be NO movement on Policing and Justice this side of a Westminster election. Consequently a large rump of Unionism is deliberately feeding Republican frustration and wants to use the policing issue to antagonise and provoke Republicans to return to conflict which we can see with the growing dissident activity. This gives Unionists the excuse and fuel they want and need. Tories back in power, Republicans at war, Army back on the streets and Unionism to withdraw to it’s cave for another generation. HOWEVER as usual Unionists don’t see the wider world picture because on the horizon looms Obama in the WhiteHouse and NO Democratic US administration will play the Unionist game. In addition we have a Taoiseach in Dublin who really has NO time for bigoted Unionism and he will use the strong Irish/American lobby to influence Obama’s Irish policy. Looks like joint authority is on the cards with a Nationalist population majority looming large. Well played Unionism, your paraochial bigotry defeats you……AGAIN.

  • ??

    For all your false bravado, there is a lot more sympathy in the UK/Westminster and globally for the Irish Nationalist cause than there is for NI Unionism……….

    this is the same old waffle that has been put out for years. SERIOUSLY please bring down stormont and see what you get from Gordon if you are soo confident in your position, really PLEASE, stop gurning and just do it. We are all sick and tired of your MOPERY