“I would 100 per cent have been in the IRA”

Rose McGowan who has a role in the film “Fifty Dead Men Walking” based the IRA informer Martin McGartland has said that “I imagine, had I grown up in Belfast, I would 100 per cent have been in the IRA.” This has unsurprisingly drawn complains from unionist politicians, the Alliance Party and Willie Frazer of FAIR. Mid Ulster UUP MLA Billy Armstrong said “As an IRA member would Miss McGowan have been happy to participate in the abduction, torture and murder of Jean McConville, a widow and mother of 10?” Martin McGartland has also heavily criticised her remarks “She must have taken leave of her senses. Can’t she see that such remarks are incredibly insensitive to the families of victims of the IRA? She clearly doesn’t know anything about Northern Ireland.” It is of course interesting that although Ms. McGowan “would 100% have been in the IRA” Gerry Adams was of course not in the IRA: was he?

  • Pancho’s Horse

    Reader, do you think if the Tí Bán mercenaries had been Catholics then they would not have been targeted? Of course they would! This indicates that their killing was NOT sectarian.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Pancho’s Horse,

    “Reader, do you think if the Tí Bán mercenaries had been Catholics then they would not have been targeted? Of course they would!”

    I dont agree with that contention – such a deliberate killing of catholics civilians on that scale would never have been sanctioned.

    Perhpas we should ask Grizzly or Marty?

  • Dewi

    Maybe start think about the future?

  • Rory

    “As to the U/P/L reaction towards NI Irish nationalsists in the early-to-mid 1960s, might it have been the case that, even though the IRA was a mere shadow of its original self, it managed to give the impression of being much larger and stronger, its success in this ruse leading to a violent reaction? “

    The answer to that, DC, is, “No”.

  • Pancho’s Horse

    Sammy, I don’t agree. Being of the people – at that time, the reaction would have been “Good enough for them” You would have been aware that the execution of a Catholic British policeman was much more prized than any other. And seeing as you are on first name terms with the leaders of Sinn Féin, maybe you should ask them.

  • Dewi

    Pancho’s horse:

    Did not the loyalists have a pretty murderous go ?

  • Driftwood

    Does anyone think that, foregoing the politics, Felicity Kendal would have made a great greenfinch? Organic food at Ballykinler? And Katie Melua, surely would have been top cat at Palace Barracks.
    Maybe I’m off topic here?

  • Pancho’s Horse

    Dewi, is that for me or agin me?

  • Dewi

    Ph – neither – just “they” started it?

  • Pancho’s Horse

    Dewi, typed ‘Thank you’ into BBC site for Welsh translation but would not recognize it. What sort of language is it? And as a Breatnach, you will be very aware ‘who started it’.

  • Pancho’s Horse

    And Driftwood, in all honesty would you have allowed your daughter to join the UDR?

  • Dewi

    Lol – I know very well who started it – we invited the saxon idiots a couple of centuries ago…

  • Dewi

    And “Diolch” is “Thank you”

  • Pancho’s Horse

    …………….. ‘invited’?

  • Pancho’s Horse

    Elaborate on diolch. Thank you (pl) etc etc

  • Driftwood

    Joan Collins as Iris Robinson?
    Peter Cushing as Peter Robinson?
    The NI story remains untold by Hollywood.
    Macauley Caulkin as wee Jeffrey
    Art G as murderin mart
    Nominees please…

  • Pancho’s Horse

    As has been aired before, Driftwood, if you have evidence that the Deppitty McGuineess murdered anybody, it is your bounden duty to pass any info you may have to the British Colonial Police. If you have no evidence then bí i do thost.

  • Dewi

    Diolch (Thank you) i’r Saeson (to the Saxons) am ddiffedda ein Ynys (for wrecking our island)

    there u go

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Pancho’s Horse,

    Grizzly and Marty both agree with me – I was going to just turn up at the next army council and ask the rest of them – but apparently there is no meeting scheduled until after the next assembly elections.

  • Pancho’s Horse

    Go raibh maith ag na Sacsanaigh as ar n-inis a scriosadh. But what I meant was, is diolch declinable eg thank you, thanks to him. we give thanks etc.

  • Pancho’s Horse

    Now, Sammy, you know that the Army Council is defunct so why do you keep on?

  • Rory

    There can only be one choice for Papa Doc and that is the late Lon Chaney who was father of the (also late, or possibly even later) Lon Chaney Jr. (star of late 1950’s classic tv series Hawkeye which made 1950’s NI Sundays even more boring for children of my generation). Lon Cheyney (Snr.) was a “star” of silent films and renowned as a master of disguise – his biopic, starring James Cagney, was called The Man of a Thousand Faces which makes it all the more appropriate that he play the great orator. Besides which, as a master of disguise, he can also play Ian Paisley Jnr, which will mean that we don’t also need to exhume Lon Chaney Jr. and so save on budget – which will appeal to potential Ulster investors such as Sweeney McSweeney. An additional pointer in favour of my choice is that, like those whom the late Lon Chaney will be asked to portray, he was renowned as a totally shit actor and fooled no one except those poor gullible redneck dupes who really needed to get a life but got Southern Democrats, Baptist churches and Nickleodeons instead.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Pancho’s Horse,

    “Being of the people” what kinda stuff do you reckon Marty got up to as commander of the IRA in Derry?

  • Dewi

    But what I meant was, is diolch declinable eg thank you, thanks to him. we give thanks etc.

    Hmm – in the context of invasion I reckon fuck off back to Germany is the best translation.

  • Pancho’s Horse

    Sammy, being a simple rural person, can I refer you to HRH Prince Charles (of the principality of Wales) and his position as Commander in Chief of the Paras. What atrocities was he not responsible for?

  • Pancho’s Horse

    Dewi, Slugger and old age is making you irascible.

  • Dewi

    Whatever – my nation is founnd

  • Pancho’s Horse

    Dewi, posters on Slugger would contend that you are but a region of the United Kingdom and not a nation like what we in Northern Ireland are.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    PH

    “Now, Sammy, you know that the Army Council is defunct so why do you keep on? ”

    Defunct – yes – but only until the DUP sign up to Police and Justice – at least thats what I minuted at our last meeting at the beginning of the month.

  • Pancho’s Horse

    Sammy, now I know that you are a chancer because NO minutes are kept!

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Pancho’s Horse

    So according to you – we dont exist and we dont keep minutes.

    Note to publicity dept: Lads keep up the good work.

  • Pancho’s Horse

    I’m beginning to doubt if I even exist. Oíche mhaith agus bore da Sammy agus Dewi

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    PH, Dewi,

    Slan agus Nos da.

  • BfB

    a few saddos in a few desperate Boston shebeens

    The Friday afternoon fish cakes were worth it.

  • Herring

    @RepublicanStones

    “Another one who has seemingly talked to the entire world to guage their opinion. The point you gloriously missed o’neill, which Steve was making was that international opinion does seem heavily weighted in favour of the irish cause for freedom. One need only look at the romanticisation of this cause in movies and music. Are you trying to suggest that there is an equivalent one for unionism or Britian’s role in Ireland???????”

    While I acknowledge what you describe I think that it’s a rather fickle beast, and could easily have been transferred to the national liberation struggle of Ulster Protestants that would enivitably have occurred had the IRA ever have had their way and achieved the united Ireland without the consent of Northern Ireland that they fought for. Though much more likely in those circumstances Americans would become confused and just view both sides as strange like they generally view Tamils/Sinhalese in Sri Lanka or whatever.

    Ignorant Americans seem to have a gut instinct kind of Evil Empire versus Rebel Alliance (qf Star Wars) mentality probably because of their history. It doesn’t always serve them well in understanding ethnic conflicts overseas.

  • Herring

    @steve

    “the IRA war was justifiable even if all their actions weren’t

    Its just that simple to those of us that exist outside the sectarian crucible of nIreland

    everything PIRA did is not excusable but their reasons are acceptable and just

    of course I might be a terrorist stooge but I also believe american indians, Canadian First Nations and Australian Aboriginees also retain the right to protest their historic treatment, the difference being that the 3 previous groups mentioned could rely on the juris prudence of their respective governments nIreland nationalist/catholics had no such guarantee from the sectarian and illegal government that ruled nIreland.

    The dupers and tuvers want a return to this system, hopefully Sinn Fein will never go back to croppy lie down

    Nationalism in the nIreland context is the only acceptable position of eople who value freedom and liberty”

    I disagree 180 degrees. If the IRA’s cause was just I could perhaps forgive Le Mon or Kingsmill, but the IRA’s cause was injust. At no point during the troubles would handing Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland as sovereign territory without the majoritry support of the people living in it have been anything other than an immoral injustice. Opposition to it would, as in your words, be “the only acceptable position of people who value freedom and liberty”.

  • Herring

    “I disagree 180 degrees. If the IRA’s cause was just I could perhaps forgive Le Mon or Kingsmill”

    I could forgive a similar atrocity of the ANC for example, because their cause was so obviously just, just as I could forgive Hiroshima as a path to a “greater good”, but the IRA’s aims were immoral, so I can give no such free pass to their more dubious actions.

  • Dave

    “At no point during the troubles would handing Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland as sovereign territory without the majoritry support of the people living in it have been anything other than an immoral injustice.” – Herring

    Forgive me if my knowledge of history is a tad out of whack, but wasn’t Northern Ireland created without the majority support of the people living in the entiry that it was seperated from; and consequently, its creation could not “have been anything other than an immoral injustice”?

  • Herring

    @Dave

    “Forgive me if my knowledge of history is a tad out of whack, but wasn’t Northern Ireland created without the majority support of the people living in the entiry that it was seperated from;”

    Correct. As with Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan etc. vis a vis the USSR. Those separations were also just and proper in reflectiing majority views in the various land masses. Though Russia seems to be taking a moral page out of the IRA’s book currently. Or Serbia with it’s “Greater Serbia” acccusing Kosovans of effectively being “planters” (arriving at roughly the same date as Ulster Prod planters as it happens).

    “and consequently, its creation could not “have been anything other than an immoral injustice”?”

    Incorrect. The partition of Ireland was just and proper, albeit that individuals on both sides of the border disagreed with it at the time.

  • Herring

    @Dave

    “Forgive me if my knowledge of history is a tad out of whack, but wasn’t Northern Ireland created without the majority support of the people living in the entiry that it was seperated from;”

    You might also note that the Republic of Ireland was created without the majority support of the people living in the entiry that it was seperated from. That entity being the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

    This would also have been the case in regards to any all Ireland state separating from the UK at that time.

  • steve

    Herring or Red if I might

    it was unjust then it is unjust now and the resulting injustice in nIreland was greater than any western democracy in the history of democracy

    unionists are simply immoral, end of

  • Democratic

    “unionists are simply immoral, end of”
    LOL – I guess that’s the final stone cast on this argument then!! I’m sure the likes of Republicanstones or whoever can give us a list of at least 6 countries in the world who would back this line too judging from their “support” of Bobby Sands final days back in the 80’s (incidently how many countries do you need to list to be able to claim the support of the world with a straight face?)- what a crock of sh1te!! – seriously don’t youse all get bored of having each other’s jowls quivering in self-righteous indignation 3 times a day over history that despite protestations to the contrary there is no universally accepted historical narrative for….move on for God’s sake!! As for Rose Magowan I’m sure some of the lads here could find her something to chew on next time she feels like speaking out on the Norn Iron situation….

  • Well more people around the world came out in support of Bobby Sands than did for anything to do with unionism. Apart from a few Scottish Rangers hooligan troglodytes and the National Front in England, the Unionists/Loyalists have very little support outside of the wee six. Now that’s the truth!

  • Democratic

    And my Da is bigger than yours……

  • PaddyReilly

    Nevin

    Paddy, weren’t Nationalists exercising ‘majority rule’ in Newry?

    Firstly, you will appreciate that I am not from Newry, and was not in the South Down brigade of the IRA, or any other brigade. I would be exaggerating if I said I have never been to Newry, but I never got off the bus when I was there.

    So, speaking speculatively on behalf of Newry majoritarians, it appears that what they had wasn’t good enough for them. The allocation of Housing was under democratic control, but Policing was not. For this reason they felt they were entitled to take potshots at policemen.

    As for the more recent debate as to whether the cause of the IRA was just, I should point out that the organization was made up of brigades, covering a particular geographical area, South Armagh, Derry, West Belfast etc, in which there was a Nationalist majority. There was no North Down or East Antrim brigade. So within the confines of their admittedly limited geographical experience, they were fighting for democracy and majority rule.

    Now we may criticise them for their parochiality, but why should they accept the six county entity? What principal was it founded on except grab?

  • Interesting to think what reaction would have been had she been in the film Resurrection Man
    and come out with “I would 100 per cent have been in the U.V.F.”

    and i’ve got to rather foolishly admit that i’ve had this vision all weekend of her in that fishnet outfit with a balaclava on, threatening to kill me.

  • ulsterfan

    Paddy Reilly The IRA never had a mandate from the Irish people to act in the way they did.
    The never had any moral right and any populist support for their murderous campaign was diminshed when they started to kill Irish children in Belfast and Claudy and in other places.

  • Star 08

    They bore out the words of Basil Brooke at a dinner in Stormont in 1933: “Some people have told me that we need fascism. We have the Orange order. We have the B-Specials. What need have we of fascism?”

  • Comrade Stalin

    Steve,

    For the record if I was a Catholic in Belfast at this time I believe I too would have joined the IRA but since I didn’t grow up in that era its all so much suposition. Would have made a lousy terrorists though as I can’t go anywhere with out being noticed by every one

    What you have to remember is that most people did not join the IRA. I know plenty of people who were kicked, abused and generally messed around by the British army. It made them angry, possibly hostile, to the army but it did not lead them to take up arms. Worse, many people in the communities where the IRA organized found, in time, that they themselves were the IRA’s victims.

    I’m forced to conclude that since so many people chose not to join the IRA, and so many people ended up being victimized by the IRA, that it can’t have been a straightforward and/or obvious decision for people at the time. That’s why the remarks of this daft actor are insensitive and poorly considered. I wouldn’t want to be too hard on her as she probably knows next to nothing about the history here, but people should really think about stuff before they speak.

  • Steve

    Comrade Stalin

    I’m forced to conclude that since so many people chose not to join the IRA, and so many people ended up being victimized by the IRA, that it can’t have been a straightforward and/or obvious decision for people at the time. That’s why the remarks of this daft actor are insensitive and poorly considered. I wouldn’t want to be too hard on her as she probably knows next to nothing about the history here, but people should really think about stuff before they speak.

    CS

    Her remarks much like mine are based on an unprovable myth, are we willing to give up a comfortable life and take up arms and be hunted like animals? With out having to back the words up with actions we would all like to believe we would for a just cause, if it ever came to making that choice in real life then and only then will it ever be anything but words.

    Everybody likes to think themselves the hero after all

  • PaddyReilly

    The IRA never had a mandate from the Irish people to act in the way they did

    No, and I never said they did. How could they, when there is no office and no procedure for issuing mandates to people who might want them?

    But that does not detract from the fact that within the constricted area that a particular brigade operated, it could plausibly claim to be fighting for democracy and majority rule. Indeed the only way the IRA could hope to survive in a particular area was that the people were favorable or neutral towards their activites.

    Neither do I wish to be drawn into the argument of whether their actions were pleasant or nice. Populist and democratic movements frequently are not nice: the French Revolution is a good example of this. Democrats who have been deprived of the right to rule for too long do tend to be more than a little on the sanguinary side. The answer is not to deprive them of the power they should enjoy: this generally mellows them.

  • ulsterfan

    Paddy Reilly

    Why should the IRA fight for democracy and majority rule when these already existed North and South of Ireland?
    Perhaps this form of government was not perfect, but it was acceptable to most in both jurisdictions and it certainly did not justify the killing of so many people including children by IRA?

  • Democratic

    There you go folks – if the democratic movement that was/is the IRA were given the keys of power when they demanded it they would have been “mellowed” enough not to have slaughtered all round them for so long – just so…..

  • PaddyReilly

    Why should the IRA fight for democracy and majority rule when these already existed North and South of Ireland?

    I recently read how a teacher in a school in West London asked his charges what percentage of the population of Great Britain was Muslim. They thought a while and decided, extrapolating from their own religious make-up and that of everyone they knew in the area, that it was around 70%.

    Apparently, the horizons of the working/under/gangsta class are not very wide. The various brigades looked around them and saw a Catholic, Nationalist majority. Indeed I have heard of adolescents in West Belfast who had never knowingly met a Protestant, at least in a social context. They therefore set out to achieve majority rule, by force of arms.

    Naturally, all this Unionist bullshit about Donegal being in one country and Tyrone in another had no effect on them. If ulsterfan were to walk up and enlighten them on this matter, they would just have shot him. What all this goes to show is that one should not create mythical countries where the allegiance of the people on the ground is radically different to the state, and that where one has a country with an overwhelming ethnic preponderance, such as England, one should not allow this unity to be destroyed by outsiders.

  • Doctor Who

    Paddy

    If these poor impoverished young westies didn´t even know Prods in the Shankill existed, how the fuck would they have known Donegal or Tyrone.

  • PaddyReilly

    how the fuck would they have known Donegal or Tyrone.

    They went there on holday? But I didn’t say they didn’t know the Shankill existed. I said they had never knowingly met a Protestant, at least in a social context. They may have met them in the context of policemen. But with West Belfast currently returning 6/6 Nationalist MPs, the Shankill is obviously not the demographically significant place you imagine it to be.

  • NatureBoy

    “The fact that loyalist murderers reacted by striking terror into the Nationalist community also weakened the Sinn Fein vote.”

    Nonsense.

    Rather than being afraid nationalists demanded retribution against loyalists. Thats what lead to the Shankill bombing and the assassinations of Joe Bratty, Raymond Elder and Ray Smallwoods.

  • NatureBoy

    “The fact remains that the IRA was more interested in killing protestant civilians re La Mon etc than British Soldiers who could shoot back.”

    Again – garbage.

    A look at the numbers showed they killed far more catholic civilians than protestants. Their killings of British soldiers and RUC/UDR men also outnumbered the ammount of prod civilians they killed.

    If you want to talk about groups that ONLY went after civilians then please look at the UDA and UVF.

  • NatureBoy

    “The ethnicity of the Ulster Scots (an amalgam of Border Scots, Border English, Protestant Highlanders, and Protestant refugees from the Catholic continent) has pretty much been completely ignored.”

    They are not a different ethnicity from the Irish.

    They have been in Ireland for 400 years and intermixed heavily with the natives (ever wonder why some “Ulster Scots” have Irish surnames while nationalists like Gerry Adams have anglo surnames?).

    I’m sure alot of people in Dublin and Wexford have Scandinavian blood from the Viking settlements there. Are they a different ethnic group as well?

  • Pounder

    What a load of tosh over nothing. Rose McGowan is most famous for being dumped like a used tissue by Marilyn Manson, and that dopy show about witches Charmed.

    Unionists like Frazer would be better served taking a lesson from their favourite book and turning the other cheek.

  • lee

    Willie Frazer of victims’ group FAIR said that her comments were “sickening”.

    Did Willie ever sort his personal weapon or do the Police still have ‘reliable intelligence’ that he associates with loyalist terrorist organisations ?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Her remarks much like mine are based on an unprovable myth, are we willing to give up a comfortable life and take up arms and be hunted like animals?

    So in a single stroke you dismiss those who chose not to sign up to an motley bunch of butchers as a bunch of slackers who enjoyed their comfortable life too much ? Does it strike you that it is in any way possible that many people felt that the IRA was illegal and wrong ? That the injustices, substantive that they were, were not worth murdering people over ? Many of these injustices were well on the way to being addressed by the time the IRA commenced their campaign.

    Your point of view is a license for people anywhere to arm themselves and take matters into their own hands. I honestly hope that you don’t find yourself one day facing the barrel of a gun belonging to someone who decided to follow your advice.

  • sammaguire

    They have been in Ireland for 400 years and intermixed heavily with the natives (ever wonder why some “Ulster Scots” have Irish surnames while nationalists like Gerry Adams have anglo surnames?).

    Posted by NatureBoy on Sep 15, 2008 @ 08:24 PM

    Very very true. I’m from Dublin and have a lowland Scots surname. I don’t know if it’s a coincidence but most of my Dublin born friends (especially those with ancestry from north of a line drawn from Wicklow to Sligo) also have Scots (highland or lowland) names somewhere in their families. Like the Celts, Vikings and Normans before them the Scots Planters are very much part of what I am as a 21st Century Irishman.

  • steve

    cs

    you have it exactly wrong my post is do you have the intestinal fortitude to back words with actions. humans have millions of words but will you back up rhetoric with action?

    unionists are famous for rhetoritic and famous for inaction. they hate terrorists unless they wear the butchers apron, condemn violence except if its state violence, hate violence except for state violence and despise paramilitaries unless they srart with “u” (as in ulster)

    loyalism/unionism is the ultimate of hypochrasy. it should be the dictionary definition of the same