More from the Republic joining the British Army

In my first year in England on our way to Liverpool from Portsmouth, my first car broke down. Cutting a long story short, the three of us split up and hitched instead. My last lift was in a brown mini filled, as it happened with four Scouse squaddies. It turned out they were all huge and in the Irish Guards. Two of them had cousins on the Falls Road. It’s an old tradition. Now it seems more people from the south are flocking once again to join the British army. Some of them former members of the Irish Defence Forces. H/T Dermot.

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  • Driftwood

    Can anyone explain to my why a few dozen farm labourers kept them from travelling South Armagh roads for close on two decades?

    Well, they could easily have wasted the entire area, or alternately, ‘taken out’ the “farm labourers” responsible. But they have to operate within the law, unlike terrorist groups like SF-PIRA/Taliban/Al Queda/ FARC etc.
    No other army would have been so restrained, including the US, against sectarian murder groups.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘But they have to operate within the law, unlike terrorist groups like SF-PIRA/Taliban/Al Queda/ FARC etc. ‘

    Ahh but they didn’t Drift, your beloved british army are also terrorists. Whose for tea I spot a pot, surely there i s a kettle round here somewhere??

  • I became thoroughly bored with the predictable ritual exchange of insults this thread provoked.

    Then I noticed one or two or the later contributions have called into question the motives and intents of some of the bravest, most sincere and most consistent people I have had the privilege of meeting.

    Take, for one casual example, the late Alec Digges, whom I came to know in North London in the 1970s. As a young republican, he left Dublin in 1937 to fight for the cause of the Spanish Republic. As such, he was denounced from the pulpit, and denied the chance of returning to employment in his own home city.

    He joined the Coldstream Guards, and lost a leg on the invasion beach in Normandy.

    He never lost his Irishness, his love of Dublin, or his essential honesty.

    He was only one of the hundreds that went to Spain in a good cause (many not to return). Then there were the tens of thousands who came to Britain during the War to join the armed services, to man the factories, or women the hospitals. They were not discouraged from doing so by De Valera’s government, though there were so many the British government imposed quotas. They served both nations, one by their presence, the other by their absence. Their reward, at least for the men-folk, was to have the worst life-expectancy of any ethnic group in modern Britain.

    To imply they were mere “mercenaries” belittles only anyone capable of applying that term.

  • Elliot Mitcham

    RepublicanStones:

    If both sides were terrorists why take sides?

  • RepublicanStones

    Elliot apart from that being an utterly facetious question the naïve tone of it actually has me thinking your serious. One does not ‘pick a side’ based upon the actions of others who support your belief.

  • Greenflag

    Mac,

    “Was Mr Malone any less Irish because he joined the British army?”

    Yes.

    Eh ?

    Well we’ve had a quare few gobshites and retards on this site but you have to be up there with the worst of them .

    ‘He failed in his constitutional obligation to the Irish state:’

    Along with the other 800,000 who emigrated from the Free State and the Republic in the period 1920 to 1987 most of them to the UK no doubt .

    Traitors every one of them bejasus ?.Who’d have thought it ?

    Why could’nt they have stayed in Ireland and starved to death like true loyal Irishmen and women eh ?

    Mac,

    There are amoeba living at the bottom of the pond in Stephen’s Green who have a higher IQ than yourself 🙁

  • Not everybody lives in the sectarian bubble that is Northern Ireland. Many Irish join the British Army for for personal reasons. They don’t need to justify themselves to republicans in order to be considered properly Irish.

  • HeadTheBall

    “The girls from the bawnogue in sorrow may retire
    And the piper with his bellows may go home and blow the fire
    For Johnny, lovely Johnny is sailing o’er the main
    Along with the other patriots for to fight the King of Spain” (The Bantry Girl’s Lament)

    Gentlemen, note “patriots” above. There was a time when choices were simpler for us Irish.

  • Harry Flashman

    Korea? A Chinese victory? In what parallel universe?

    As someone who loathes Communism and feels there is a special ring in hell reserved for Maoists, I can only regret that they didn’t have many more such “victories”.

    Fighting a rag tag multinational army on their very doorstep the Chinese had a massive numerical and logistical advantage.

    They still got their arses handed to them on a plate.

  • Elliot Mitcham

    RepublicanStones:

    What I’m getting at is the fact that the ‘actions of those who share your beleifs’, or more accurately the actions of those who don’t, get a disproportionate amount of verbal limelight despite the fact they neither prove or contradict the rightness or wrongness of said beleifs.

    Given how a thread about a fluctuation in recruitment numbers from what has always been a source of willing personnel for the British armed forces has resulted in the all too predictable spewing of bile I have a shrewd idea as to why.

  • RepublicanStones

    Elliot your question was about the irish or nationalist or republican side/view as opposed to the unionist or british side/view and if actions by some on either side were as bad as eachother why pick a side? Your question was not addressing the thread, now having shown how childish and idiotic a question it was you refer back to the thread. You may have shrewd ideas, but your last two posts definitley were’nt one of them.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    RepublicanStones, is not only a Gobshite, but a supporter of republican terror.

  • Greenflag

    harry flashman ,

    ‘They (the Chinese )still got their arses handed to them on a plate. ‘

    That was then . Who’s arses are on the line in Sept 2008 ?

    Americans are racking up a trade deficit with the Chinese at the rate of 1,000,000,000 (a billion) dollars a day and for the past decade . The Chinese lend this extra cash back to the Americans so that the latter can afford to borrow more money on their credit cards to buy more ‘stuff’ made in China . Meanwhile the Chinese make a nice return on the money lent to the USA (Fannie Mae , Freddie Mac etc ) in the form of secure interest bearing bonds and Treasury Bills .

    So the pecking order for the loser’s table of those who will ‘suffer ‘ when Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are ‘nationalised ‘ will be

    Chinese Investors and Bond holders – 0
    Preferred Share holders – Don’t know yet but probably 50% plus of their stock value
    Ordinary Shareholders – wipe out -with the share price down to 6 dollars from 60 these people will lose the most as individuals

    200 million American taxpayers get to share in paying the 20 billion that the Federal Government is going to have to come up with to keep the Chinese ‘happy’

    And the above is only the tip of the iceberg of the Republican financial nightmare that has yet to be fully exposed.

  • Elliot Mitcham

    RepublicanStones:

    Another cookie cutter stereotypical response “You’ve called me on my bullshit, you must hate my kind. Begone vile opressor!” I think you should see someone about that persecution complex. I fail to see how a statement referring to the state of play in general can be construed as a specific attack on nationalism/republicanism.

    Try actually adressing people’s points in future as opposed to talking down to people. Until then you’ll just be posting prettied up versions of Ulsters my homeland’s gem.

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    Is there a bit of truth or is it only a stereotype that a lot of British folk have somewhat of a lifelong obession with all things associated with the military – wars, battles, weapons, uniforms, parades, military tatoos, commemerations, war heroes, For Queen and Country etc…
    Even sporting occasions can sometimes take on the air of a war as we’ve seen with the British media on past occasions. And Britain seems to have been involved in some sort of a war around the world per decade since WWII.

    I had an interest as a kid, making and painting the airfix models …Spitfire’s, Stuka’s, Sherman tanks, Churchill tanks, Tiger tanks, Lancaster bombers, Heinkel bombers etc…etc… and even had the Action Man figure with the scar on his mush. But I seemed to grow out of it, having no particular interest now – although an odd air show can be a good spectacle, the Red Arrows, or Patrouille de France putting on the aerobatic style as they’ve done many a time here in the ROI.

    Interesting that Panorama dedicated one episode last year to the amount of war reenactment societies in England and the UK. Surprisingly most of the members prefered donning the German uniforms, iron crosses et al and there was a slight hint of neo-nazism. The neo-nazi appologist David Irving attending on occasions signing his books!

  • eranu

    “and even had the Action Man figure with the scar on his mush”

    i had an action man submarine. beat that ! 🙂

  • An Ceilleachaireach Rua

    Greagóir, to be fair who would you rather look like (sartorially speaking of course) if you were going to play dress-up; Cpt. Mainwaring or Oberst Steiner? Seriously – there’s only going to be one winner there!

    Let’s face it, the bad guys have all the best threads

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    Eranu,

    ….ah but I had the Scorpion Tank, the motor cycle and side car, the APC and the helicopter!

    Twas all great quality stuff too, great detail in the uniforms and equipment as well.

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    Ha Ha…..very true, An Ceilleeachaireeach Rua!

    Indeed, the evil baddies always have the sharpest dress sense!

  • RepublicanStones

    Elliot so now we have gone from faceitous questions to putting words into peoples mouths. Not only this but you seem to claim that I feel a

    ‘…statement referring to the state of play in general can be construed as a specific attack on nationalism/republicanism.’

    It is at this point you enter the paranoid world of UMH and as you think his last ‘riposte’ was a gem perhaps it is you who makes a better bedfellow for that loon.

  • eranu

    i take my hat off to you greagoir ! 😀

  • frank the tank

    “Korea? A Chinese victory? In what parallel universe?”
    Sigh.I never said it was a victory.you said that the chinese were shit at fighting wars.I disagreed and said that in korea it fought a number of the most powerful well equipped western armies in the world plus a superpower to a STANDSTILL.ie a draw.
    thats why North Korea is still gracing us with its sunny presence ,why the war ended up exactly back where it started (more or less) and why it ended in an armistace with neither side able to claim outright victory.so if the chinese are “pretty shit” at fighting wars then by your logic so are the americans,french,british and australians.
    if you want to argue the UN forces inlicted more casulities on the chinese then they suffered go right ahead.that doesnt mean they won the war.a 5 year old with an atlas could tell you that much

  • Paul McMahon

    Quare gear indeed Greagoir, I also tip my hat to you.

    I had the submarine, the Scorpian,the helicopter AND a climbing tower with harnesses, whinches, nets, grapples and all sorts of assorted swingy things. Can’t seem to remember the APC although I saw the motorbike and sidecar on two occasions.

    I also had, in the early eighties, Action Man in full SAS Iranian Embassy kit. Authentic right down to black hood, gasmask and HK MP5. [Although I’m slightly ashamed to admit that one].

    Thankfully though I grew out of that Peter Flint / Warlord comic obsession with militaristic paraphenellia.

  • Elliot Mitcham

    RepublicanStones:

    I’m not putting words in your mouth, you quite plainly stated, and I quote: “Elliot your question was about the irish or nationalist or republican side/view as opposed to the unionist or british side/view…” What other conclusions am I supposed to draw from that?

    You also plainly don’t know what sarcasm is. UHM is an obvious nutter who I’m suggesting you emulate to a small extent with your responses that ignore what is said to you in favour of some attempt at a smug putdown.

  • RepublicanStones

    What conclusion did you draw Elliot pray tell?

    You asked a completely bonkers question and once shown the completely inefficacy of it you now seek to obfuscate with attempts at saying I really meant this or that, and asking what other conclusions….blah blah blah?
    You accuse me of engaging in smug putdowns whilst in the exact same posts you seek to do that yourself. You’re right however, I don’t know what sarcasm is !

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    Cheers Paul Mc and Eranu!

    I remember that Peter Flint / Warlord mag too, where ye could send away and become a member of the Warlord club, receiving a wallet with secret code book.

    Regarding the Action Man SAS outfit, I had the red beret British para. Also had the WWII German Stormtrooper with the distinctive hand genades, Schmeisser MP40 and the British Tommy with Sten gun and gas mask. As kids in the 70’s it was all the buzz having battles with the figures, sometimes other kids would bring along their Steve Austin action figure as well as Evel Knievel on his motor bike!

  • Elliot Mitcham

    RepublicanStones:

    As to the conclusions I drew I made them clear in my post of 1:41PM. You may notice here that I have answered your question, if it were you typing this post I daresay the answer would be replaced by accusations of silliness and frivolity.

    And how is my question bonkers? If the actions of the two sides proponents don’t determine their rightness or wrongness why are said actions more often brought out as justifications or rebuttals as opposed to the merits or flaws of the beliefs themselves? Simply calling something facetious of ineffectual does not make it so, continuing to do so without demonstrating how just makes you look avoidant.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘As to the conclusions I drew I made them clear in my post of 1:41PM.’

    you mean this Elliot?

    “You’ve called me on my bullshit, you must hate my kind. Begone vile opressor!”

    Like your earlier question, both pointless and childish.

    ‘You may notice here that I have answered your question, if it were you typing this post I daresay the answer would be replaced by accusations of silliness and frivolity.’

    Hang on so it seems dear old Elliot may engage in smug putdowns, but the plebs….

    ‘And how is my question bonkers? If the actions of the two sides proponents don’t determine their rightness or wrongness why are said actions more often brought out as justifications or rebuttals as opposed to the merits or flaws of the beliefs themselves?’

    Here is your original question Elliot….

    ‘If both sides were terrorists why take sides?’

    Actions of a group of people in persute of an aim does not invalidate that aim. The side you refer to me taking, that of being anti the partition and British occupation of Ireland has in no way been invalidated by the actions of other republicans and their unsavoury acts. Similarly im sure for many unionists, the british army and loyalisms activities has not invalidated the concept of unionism. Furthermore in your original question you seem to think that all nationalists/republicans were terrorists and similarly so on the unionist/british side, which is patently not the case.

    ‘Simply calling something facetious of ineffectual does not make it so, continuing to do so without demonstrating how just makes you look avoidant.’

    Once more and hopefully for the last time, your question was stupid and considering you have accused me of it enough already i make as well go ahead with one…..

    Do I need to get a whiteboard and marker to walk you through it again?

  • Earnan

    Interesting thread to read for someone with a Masters in Military History

  • OC

    Greagoir O Frainclin:

    About a decade or so ago, I attended an airshow that included a B17 Flying Fortress.

    There were also military reenactors, modelled on Rommel’s Afrika Corps.

    They had a WWII-era MG34 GP machinegun, which they assured me was operational.

    Further, they claimed to have a working WWII-era 88mm high-velocity cannon that they would occassionally fire, but only after notifying the local sheriff.

  • Harry Flashman

    “Sigh.I never said it was a victory.you said that the chinese were shit at fighting wars.I disagreed and said that in korea it fought a number of the most powerful well equipped western armies in the world plus a superpower to a STANDSTILL.”

    No, the Chinese [b]should[/b] have inflicted a massive defeat on the UN forces in the Korean peninsula. They held all the aces, they had massive strategical advantages in both numbers and geography, they faced a poorly equipped, under strength enemy made up mainly of reservists and garrison troops who were utterly unprepared for the attack on them.

    That the UN forces held on, slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Chinese and kicked their arses back up to where they came from and that Peking only escaped being turned into a radioactive crater by Truman’s recall of McArthur proves the validity of my original point.

    The Chinese in Korea were shite, the Chinese have always been shite at fighting wars, perhaps they aren’t shite anymore, who knows, but I always back on past form.

  • alfemo

    Ah Eoghan nice to see my stalker hasn’t left me! Where did I mention that British soldiers are any less corner boys than the Provos?

    I didn’t, they’re both cornerboys but mac seems to believe that school swats and head prefects make better soldiers than street toughs and hard men. He’s an idiot for believing that, technology is always needed and British military technology leaves anything the Irish Army has in the Flintstone era, but you still need big, ignorant brutal men if you want to fight wars.

    Still it’s nice to see I can always get a rise out of you Eoghan, even this early on a Saturday morning.
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  • Coincidental with O’Neill and O’Donnell giving the Earl of Essex a torrid time, Shakespeare put into the mouth of “mercenary” Captain MacMorris:

    What ish my nation? Ish a villain, and a bastard, and a knave, and a rascal? What ish my nation? Who talks of my nation?

    At a quick appraisal, this is the only “Irish” character in the whole of Shakespeare. He gets just the one scene. And that question.

    I had hopes about this thread, that it could rise above itself to discuss the serious issues. The “national” histories of these islands are so long and so intertwined that there are enduring and conflicting loyalties in all of us. Our interlocking prejudices, antipathies and mutual admirations make us, all of us, one of the more complex psychological studies on the planet.

    Central to my own experience is being “West British”, an insult that I am prepared to accept as a reasonable definition of what life and interest and attitudes made me.

    When Ireland played England, 24th February 20007 (43-13, for the forgetful) at Croke Park, in that ferociously symbolic game, I watched it in a pub in Dundrum, County Down. The lounge was packed: the audience were all genders, and a range of social classes. A late-comer, a tweedy lady of certain years, with a English girls’ school refined accent, announced herself with the demand, “Did they play the national anthems?” She, then, like everybody else settled to cheer for … the men in green: and why not? Explicate that one, on not more than one side of the answer paper.

    The question persists, since Shakespeare posed it in 1599. In purely military matters, Wellington (for all his protests), Montgomery (Alanbrooke and Alexander were almosts, as well) and thousands more went one way: James Connolly, Con Markiewicz, Maud Gonne went the other. Cathal Brugha and Pádraig Pearse were products of mixed marriages (English/Irish; Protestant/Catholic). Let’s not speculate too much about the origins of Éamon de Valera. Were all “mercenaries”? Was Jackie Charlton?

    Yes, I had hopes of this thread. Instead, much of it feels like a late-night fluthered freshman argument: “Which would win a fight between a polar bear and a Great White Shark?”

    Saddening, in all truth.

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    “A late-comer, a tweedy lady of certain years, with a English girls’ school refined accent, announced herself with the demand, “Did they play the national anthems?” She, then, like everybody else settled to cheer for … the men in green: and why not?”

    Indeed Malcolm, we have a long history of such folk championing the cause of Ireland as well!

  • Greagoir O Frainclin @ 12:12 PM:

    Ah, sure! You only said that to start me off:

    What voice more sweet than hers
    When, young and beautiful,
    She rode to harriers?

    That’s easy, all four stanza for Leaving Certificate, 1960, still imprinted, including the punctuation (Thank you, Mr O’Gorman).

    Still, it leads the mind easily into:

    The light of evening, Lissadell,
    Great windows open to the south,
    Two girls in silk kimonos, both
    Beautiful, one a gazelle.

    I’m spending the afternoon clearing space in the attic and shelving books. I hereby resolve to continue with that chore until I have satisfactorily remembered all of this second one as well.

    To think that Willie B. originally drafted the first line as:

    A Georgian house under a hill

    The man must have had a tin ear, rescued only by a good sense of self-editing.

  • Andy

    as a brief aside Malcom – did Wellington renounce his “Irishness”?
    I heard the stable /horse quote was made up after his death.

    Although of course it would fit in with his habit of coining pithy sayings.

    On-topic I remember meeting a Para in a pub in Dublin a couple of years back. If he could make the Paras I would guess he could make the IDF. After a couple of jars I asked him if it wasnt a bit strange for an Irishman to join the Paras.

    As might by imagined – his motivation for joining wasnt in the least political – he had some fairly hard core republican extended family members who he seemed to respect – he just wanted to see some action.

  • Andy @ 04:50 PM:

    An intriguing notion: I must admit that I took the quotation on trust.

    I now see that it originates from … Daniel O’Connell, defending himself against Peel’s charges of conspiracy, sedition and coertion following the aborted Clontarf “monster meeting” of 1844. O’Connell won on appeal to the House of Lords, and served just three months, quite comfortably in the house of the Governor of the Bridewell, of the one year sentence.

    The source is in a digitalised book on Google Books: Shaw’s Authenticated Report of the Irish State Trials, 1844, page 93.

    Thank you: something new everyday.

  • Elliot Mitcham

    “you mean this Elliot?”

    That is the conclusion I drew yes. You accused me of specifically aiming my question at republicanism when it was plainly expressed in general terms.

    “Hang on so it seems dear old Elliot may engage in smug putdowns, but the plebs…. ”

    I thought I’d speak in a language you understand.

    “Actions of a group of people in persute of an aim does not invalidate that aim.”

    If that is so why so much focus on said actions? If someone actually thought that they wouldn’t bring them up so much, would they?

    “Furthermore in your original question you seem to think that all nationalists/republicans were terrorists and similarly so on the unionist/british side, which is patently not the case.”

    ‘Ahh but they didn’t Drift, your beloved british army are also terrorists.’ Your words, not mine.

    “Once more and hopefully for the last time, your question was stupid”

    Given how this is your response to a challenge to establish any truth in this assertion I’d surmise your whiteboard would remain blank and the marker unused. Given how you seem dead set on avoiding actually showing anything I said to be stupid and are now contradicting yourself I’ll leave you to it. Happy trails.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘You accused me of specifically aiming my question at republicanism when it was plainly expressed in general terms.’

    How does calling your question stupid accuse you aiming it solely at republicans?

    ‘I thought I’d speak in a language you understand.’

    Writing in English is fine.

    ‘If that is so why so much focus on said actions? If someone actually thought that they wouldn’t bring them up so much, would they?’

    Im not a psychologist Elliot me ‘aul flower, I’ll hazard a guess and say your not either.

    ‘Your words, not mine.’

    Yes, a statement which is true, so whats the problem?

    In summation Elliot your question was, and remains stupid. I think i’ll need a bigger whiteboard !

  • frank the tank

    “No, the Chinese should have inflicted a massive defeat on the UN forces in the Korean peninsula. They held all the aces, they had massive strategical advantages in both numbers and geography”
    -The Numericial advantage
    That old chestnut.while the chinese did have temporary numericial advantages at certain stages of the war-so did the UN forces.in fact it is estimated that the total number of UN forces deployed actually outnumbers that of the total chinese and north korean forces deployed-1,400000 to 1,100000.

    In June 1951, right after the 5th campaign, UN total strength was 695,110, with 520,850 ground force (US 253100, ROK 229600, other 38150), 80340 navy (US 66700, ROK 6000, other 7640) and 94520 air force (US 90000, ROK 4000, other 520). At the same time, PVA strength was about 240,000, much lower than total UN strength.

    At the end of war, from PVA statistics, UN total strength was 1,111,340 (1.11134 million), ground force 904,550 (US 373,500, ROK 491,000, other 40050), navy 101,180 (US 73000, ROK 20000, other 8180), air force 105,610 (US 95000, ROK 10000, other 610). From western source (Korean Almanac), UN ground forces strength was slightly higher with a total of 932,539 (US 302483, ROK 590911, other 39145). PVA counted 70000 more US troops, this was probably because many ROKs (KATUSAs) were serving in US forces and counted as US strength by PVA. even if the chinese did outnumber the un forces it was by nowhere near the numbers claimed by the americans who claimed they were being overrun by “human waves” of chinese to excuse there poor combat performance.
    In fact the human waves tactics were a myth.During battles, western forces were usually incapable of correctly estimating the strength of PVA forces, often times, they greatly exaggerated the number of attacking PVAs, such as taking a PVA regiment as a PVA division. PVA mostly attacked at night, blowing bugles and wistles, shouting thrills, even play “sweet music” to cause psychological stress, the PVA tactics made western forces feel that the enemy was everywhere from every direction. Moreover, PVAs were masters of infiltration, they often sneaked in and attacked directly on command posts, generating shock and chaos. Western combat history always refered PVA attacks as “swarm of Chinese”, “human waves”, “Chinese hordes”, as if PVA simply threw its men into the fire and let itself slaughtered, such a description indicated a great misunderstanding of the PVA tactics. As some military analysts pointed out, PLA rarely use dense formation in their attacks, it seeks to inflict maximum damage with mnimum casualty. At various stages of the Korean war, PVA never had a commanding numerical superioty against UN forces, in fact, during the 4th campaign, it was greatly outnumbered by UN (it was always outgunned), yet it could still outmaneuver UN forces and even managed to counter attack at X Corps. PVA could achieve all these with inferior firepower because it had smarter tactics and strategy.
    -The geographical and logistical advantage
    The chinese had to attack across a mountain range with an average peak height of 2000 metres and across a wide fastflowing yalu river notoriously hard to navigate ships across in winter.In terms of actual field equipment in China, the People?s Liberation Army in 1950 was primitive by any standards. It has been compared to any army of 1914, primarily an army of infantry soldiers without trucks and artillery. No air support and no antiaircraft defense existed. Communications from regiment downward was by telephone or by runners. Normally, each battalion headquarters had only one field telephone, and none below that.
    In 1950 in North Korea, the principal means of transportation were railroads and oxcarts. Few paved roads existed and most of these were in the southern part of the country. Nearly all other roads were dirt, scarcely of all-weather construction, and mostly single lanes. A good many were barely traversable by military vehicles.The two Chinese transportation units (5th and 42d Truck Regiments) assigned to operations in Korea had a total of 800 trucks (the Americans were thought to have at least 2,400), but were lucky to keep more than 300 or 400 trucks operational. The breakdown rate was appalling.
    China after 12 years of civil war and economic pillage by the japanese was a desperately poor country facing off against an american economic superpower possibly at the height of its powers which could resupply its troops by both sea and air unmolested.UN air superiority made resupply infitely more hazardous for the chinese.it had no logistical advantage.

  • frank the tank

    -“they faced a poorly equipped, under strength enemy”
    more poorly equipped than the chinese forces???The rubber-and-canvas tennis shoes worn by the Chinese soldiers provided no protection against the cold and resulted in extremely heavy rates of frozen feet. The basic uniform was heavily quilted cotton. Warm in dry weather, the quilted uniforms were impossible to dry when soaked. Few Chinese soldiers had gloves, so many suffered from frostbitten or frozen hands. They often had to sleep out in the open, in minus-30degrees Centigrade, without blankets. They could not light fires because of the US planes. Sleeping bags were obtained only if captured from the US forces
    -the us forces were outnumbered sure but by nowhere near as many chinese as they tried to make out.also they possessed massive armour,artillery and air superiority.
    – “made up mainly of reservists and garrison troops”
    the un army which was in north korea in november 1950 was not the same army which the un had deployed at the outbreak of the war in July.(although that army was technically made up of combat troops that had just gotten fat and lazy-the majority werent rear echelon) the UN had had months to get there act together and hadreinforced their army with the marine expiditionary force of 27000 marines,the 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team ie. elite paratroopers,US rangers,Royal Marine Commando (Independent)41 and a pretty handy all volunteer french battalion.some of the cream of the western armies were represented
    “who were utterly unprepared for the attack on them”-and whose fault was that.UN military intelligence couldnt spot a massive army staging in the mountains above the yalu river.pretty “shite” in that vital area of military ability wouldnt you say.even though the chinese had explicitly warned the americans through the indians that they wouldnt tolerate an american army on their border!!!

  • frank the tank

    “That the UN forces held on” Eventually after “the Big bug out” and a chaotic retreat back past seoul.
    -“kicked their arses back up to where they came from” to the 38th parallell!!
    -“that Peking only escaped being turned into a radioactive crater by Truman’s recall of McArthur proves the validity of my original point.

    The Chinese in Korea were shite,”
    -No it doesnt it proves my point that the chinese in korea were so good and the UN so shite that Mcarthur was reduced to having to threaten nuclear war because he couldnt defeat the chinese conventionally.
    -“the Chinese have always been shite at fighting wars”,any country that can construct the great wall of china have to be at least skilled at defensive warfare.also sun tzu-enough said.

  • frank the tank

    I rest my case

  • arseen

    ‘It’s an easy option to join the joke that constitutes the Irish “defence forces”.’

    See Concubhar, I told you it was coming.
    Fact is the irish DF are a real army but we have little idiots thinking that because the budget, manpower or capability of the DF is laughable compared to more ‘grander’ nations, combined with the fact Ireland has no colonial history staining it that real soldiering is only done with killing people. Quite obviously Drift has never served, never worn a beret, except maybe one of those Ulster resistance ones, and so, my prediction was correct. Drift would do well to compare the face of a Liberian when he sees an Irish soldier and compare it to the face of an Iraqi when he sees a british one.
    Gul urges Baku to dialogue with Yerevan
    kurtlar vadisi pusu 41 sezon finali izle