“There is now widespread and growing concern among republicans..”

Interestingly, the Sinn Féin representative now threatening to collapse the Northern Ireland Executive take the ball away over the issue of policing and justice powers is TD, Caoimhghin O Caolain. According to the BBC report

[Caoimhghin O Caolain] said republicans were growing increasingly concerned at the lack of progress being made on the issue. “If we are forced to conclude that change will not be forthcoming from the executive then we will have no option but to pull out our ministers and seek to put pressure where responsibility ultimately lies, which is on the British government in London,” he said.

“There is now widespread and growing concern among republicans at the failure to transfer policing and justice powers from London to Belfast in due time. “When Sinn Fein changed our policy on policing in the north, accepting that a new beginning was being made, it was with the prospect that policing and justice powers would be transferred by May of this year. “It is now the end of August and we do not even have a date for transfer. This is totally unacceptable.”

Totally unacceptable indeed, Caoimhghin.. but who promised you it would be May? Update Some political responses here

, , , ,

  • Devil Éire

    Driftwood

    “Maybe we can get our 30 mph signs in Chinese, Polish and Oirish?”

    I’ve seen the word “Irish” written as “Oirish” many times on SO’T, but am unfamiliar with the semiotics. Perhaps you can explain, Driftwood, what the subtext is? I am genuinely interested. Is the subtext, that:

    (a) Irish is not even a language; it’s pidgin, thus “Oirish”.
    (b) The Irish language sounds stage-Irish to you, thus “Oirish”.
    (c) In the privacy of your own home you might have referred to “Chink, Polack and Oirish”, but would not like to appear racist on this site. Thus “Oirish”.
    (d) The Irish language is the linguistic equivalent of “fiddle-de-dee music”, thus “Oirish”.
    (e) You wish to display your antipathy to the Irish language, thus “Oirish”.
    (f) None of the above.

  • frustrated democrat

    An interesting sub text is the UUP/Conservative dialogue.

    The impasse withe DUP/SF is not going down well in the unionist community as they see a lot of hot air and no action while the MLA’s are being paid to do a job they are not doing.

    SF will have seen the DUP’s obvious discomfort (at best) with the dialogue and see an opportunity to pressurise the DUP when they are being squeezed by the TUV on one side, who are more hardline, and potentially by a UUP/Conservative group on the other who could remove the impasse and get progress.

    Where can the DUP go? Hard line non action to stop the drift to the TUV or start to work the agreement and actually do something to head off the UUP/Conservatives.

    It will be interesting to see how the DUP react to being caught in a vice with a rock on one side and a hard place on the other. Do they want an Assembly election any time soon no chance!

    So SF are left holding all the aces and the DUP the trash.

  • IJP

    Kensei

    … which is pretty much what the Alliance Party’s been saying since 1998.

    Funny how you only listen when it suits your party’s interests.

    SF negotiated St Andrews. It has only itself to blame for its failings.

    SF has to learn that it is no longer dealing with “Brits” (the UK Government), it is now dealing directly with its fellow Irish men and women who happen to be British. It’s called reality.

  • Rooster Cogburn

    For Devil Ire’s benefit, Oirish: a language not spoken by those who advocate it, and, whose advocacy (in English) is not for its own, proclaimed sake, but for sectarian intent.

  • Comrade Stalin

    kensei:

    An argument that might fly if the DUP had not already conceded the principle. It might also fly if the DUP had ever indicated any achievable criteria to attain this “confidence”, which is about an amorphous a concept as you can imagine.

    Amorphous concepts concerning policing are not something new to Sinn Fein. SF had no fixed definition of it’s requirements for accepting a reformed or new police force in NI, beyond saying that the RUC had to be disbanded and plastic bullets had to be banned. The word “amorphous” is the sticky-tape holding everything here together. We’ve an entire process built deliberately on things being badly or ambiguously defined.

    Sammy etc:

    “if it goes down this way it will most likely lead to an uncertain future for the present party leadership.”

    If – is the key word here – and in another scenario e.g. Robbo jumping before he has magiced up Unionist confidence – could equally apply to the DUP.

    This is where we get into opinion, so I can’t dispute this part, but I don’t understand how you can read things this way. Robinson has the concerned ear of 10 Downing Street, which SF do not, and he can leverage that to secure additional concessions or to stick a wee finger on the scales. If a deal is done and policing is devolved, the ministry is not even going to go to SF in the first instance, so it’s a smooth landing for him; he can still go to the electorate in 2011 (or whenever the next assembly elections are due to take place) and say that, despite the machinations of the Brits and the evil free staters, he arranged to put policing in the hands of locally accountable politicians while keeping it outside of SF’s control. As I say, the DUP have a full deck of cards in front of them to play with. They’ve set things up very nicely.

    Also are you not being a little bit unfair to the very Reverend Doctor – assuming your Unioinst ideological analysis (see above for details )is correct ?

    I don’t understand how my analysis can be described either as unionist or ideological. It’s just my interpretation of reality on the ground. Of course I could be completely wrong. We’ll see before long.

    Ian was party leader in negotiations during the STA when as you claim the DUP so outwitted SF – so the gig fellah surely deserves a lot of credit.

    Once again, you’re exposing your ignorance of NI political realities here. Robinson has been the real leader of the DUP for at least the past five years, particularly since the DUP leader fell gravely ill. The only reason why Paisley was kept in place was to sell the deal to the hardline DUP electorate – a deal that Robinson has known would be inevitable for the past 10 years, I reckon.

    Although I wouldnt agree that the boy Robbo has played a blinder, as the Englezes like to say – he has done good.

    I don’t know what this “Englezes” thing you have going is. Gordon Brown is Scottish. The NI secretary at the time of the deal was South African.

    You’re not really a nationalist, just someone pretending to be one.

    As captain he will need to keep tabs on his more agressive teammates, particulalry herself and on some of his undisciplined fundamentalist right wing given to scoring own goals.

    I think Robinson strategically uses people like that to secure his own power base. I don’t believe the Iris outburst, for example, has damaged the DUP at all.

    “I think the DUP are ready to jump. But SF constantly prodding them won’t make it happen any more quickly than it is going to. “

    Translation. They will only throw the towel in when they are ready to throw the towel in – cracking stuff.

    What’s your problem with it ? Your narrative the whole way along is that the DUP don’t really want to do a deal but are being forced to by the British. It’s plainly rubbish. If the DUP don’t want to do a deal, then there won’t be a deal. It may seem obvious, but it needs to be pointed out for the slow learners around the place.

  • Rory

    Since we are doing definitions:

    Ulster Scots: The attempt, in Northern Ireland, to elevate badly spoken English to the status of a language for no readily discernible purpose.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Comrade Stalin,

    “the DUP don’t want to do a deal, then there won’t be a deal.”

    Politics is rarely that simple – consider the 2 following facts.

    1)
    There will be a considerable number of people in the DUP who wont be able to contenance SF having any control over police and Justice whereas SF are far more unified on this issue.

    I take it you accept that?

    2)
    There is political party to the right of the DUP who have already won a by-electon and will be rehearseing their Lundy accusations as we speak.SF dont have any electoral threat from dissident republicans.

    I take it you accept that?

    Everything about the peace process – up until the STA (which we are arguing about) has gone SFs way – and those are the words of the DUP. Therfefore it is plausible (although debatable) that the Englezes (not fair to Britians other colonies Wales and Scotland to include them) will continue to side with the good guys ( slight bias) and threaten the DUP with ROI involvement, to get them to engage – as admitted by your beloved Robbo, and Ian. Perhaps a bit of denial going on here as the facts dont fit with your DUPesque analysis?

    Interesting times ahead.

    ps “I don’t believe the Iris outburst, for example, has damaged the DUP at all. ” I take it you are not in the habit of discussing these matters with anyone from the mainland?

  • cynic

    “Ulster Scots: The attempt, in Northern Ireland, to elevate badly spoken English to the status of a language for no readily discernible purpose.”

    Rory

    Definition of the definer:

    “individual who seeks impose his rights on others but selectively denies the same rights to those others on spurious racial grounds”

  • cynic

    Comrade / Sammy

    They were even taking the piss out of Iris on Radio 4. In fact it was much much worse than that – it was a 5 minute vicious excoriation of her dropped into the middle of a comedy routine. In effect they stopped the jokes and told it like it was. They shredded her. She will now be a pariah at Westminster and the Conservatives will be very careful in all dealings with the DUPs to make sure they rent tainted by this.

  • cynic

    I keep saying that I think there’s room for a deal here.

    MAZE SHRINE

    OK – lets have a shrine but on condition that it tells the whole truth including:

    * details and pictures of the men women and children the hunger strikers murdered

    * details of the men who sent them out to do the killings and bombings

    * a full account of how they came to die including the fact that the leadership were in secret negotiations with the Government but held off telling the last 4 Hunger Strikers for electoral advantage leading to their totally unnecessary deaths

    IRISH LANGUAGE ACT

    * let them have it but dont make it compulsory

    * offer more funding IF there is a real increase in demand (there won’t be)

    * anyone can choose to opt in to learn Irish (they can now already) or Irish Medium Education

    * beyond that no speacial measures for public services businesses or anything else.

    The reality is that this is a totem and aside from a few SF Nutters no-one will bother. English is the language of commerce and employment and many hard core SF supporters have enough trouble learning that.

  • cynic

    “There will be a considerable number of people in the DUP who wont be able to contenance SF having any control over police and Justice whereas SF are far more unified on this issue.”

    Sammy

    But they do now. SF are on the Policing Board and responsible for holding the police to account and remember the words of the great bearded one who promised that they intended to ‘put manners on the police’.

    Of course they haven’t been very effective. In effect we rarely hear of them making any real contribution positive or negative. Unless of course they are happy with the way policing is going.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    cynic,

    I presume the DUP have a press/communications officer who has the delightful job of sifting through all the media coverage and presenting it to Robbo.

    Deal etc.

    Like you say the Maze/Bobby Bowl and Irish Language can be worked out without too much blood. But do you not think that Poots getting the boot indicates that the DUP will bang the Maze/Bobby bowl on the ‘ead?

  • Rory

    But, Cynic, I have no wish to insist that anyone speak Irish merely that if they do they not be discriminated against and it would be a bit silly of me who lives in London where the most abominable English is spoken to complain about the deficencies of the Ulster Scots English dialect which I find colourful and quite amusing -a bit like Polari really.

  • observer

    There is political party to the right of the DUP who have already won a by-electon

    ——————-

    what by-election did the tuv win?

  • Comrade Stalin

    “the DUP don’t want to do a deal, then there won’t be a deal.”

    Politics is rarely that simple

    It’s as simple as it has been for the past thirty years. But let’s go through it anyway.

    – consider the 2 following facts.

    1)
    There will be a considerable number of people in the DUP who wont be able to contenance SF having any control over police and Justice whereas SF are far more unified on this issue.

    I take it you accept that?

    I do accept that, but it’s completely and utterly moot, since as a bare minimum SF won’t be able to have any control over police and justice. If things work out, as it looks like they may do, that the new justice minister is appointed by a cross-community vote in the assembly, SF will never be able to take the post unless the DUP specifically agree to give it to them.

    So that’s that straw man knocked down.

    2)
    There is political party to the right of the DUP who have already won a by-electon and will be rehearseing their Lundy accusations as we speak.SF dont have any electoral threat from dissident republicans.

    I take it you accept that?

    I can’t accept it, as I don’t know what party or what by-election you are talking about. I looked up the TUV on Wikipedia just to check, and no, they’ve not won any by-elections. The UUP won one, but they’re hardly “to the right” of the DUP or given to “lundy accusations”. If your objective was to confuse me, you’ve succeeded.

    SF’s electoral threat comes from the republican tradition of abstention. Cast your mind back to the referendum in 1998. Which parliamentary constituency had the lowest turnout ?

    Everything about the peace process – up until the STA (which we are arguing about) has gone SFs way – and those are the words of the DUP.

    I don’t care what the DUP’s words are. They’re wrong.

    What has gone SF’s way exactly ? They have had to jettison their principals, disarm their paramilitary wing, and operate a local devolved administration. Other than entry into government itself, I am having a hard time thinking of any specific concessions which SF can really pat themselves on the back for. I’d be glad to be corrected. The fact that it suits the DUP to try to cast the GFA and subsequent implementation of it as a long list of concessions to the IRA does not make it so.

    Anyway, continuing on that completely false premise :

    Therfefore it is plausible (although debatable) that the Englezes (not fair to Britians other colonies Wales and Scotland to include them) will continue to side with the good guys ( slight bias) and threaten the DUP with ROI involvement, to get them to engage – as admitted by your beloved Robbo, and Ian.

    How can it be even vaguely plausible given that Gordon Brown needs the DUP in order to keep his government running in Westminster ?

    Perhaps a bit of denial going on here as the facts dont fit with your DUPesque analysis?

    What am I in denial about ?

    ps “I don’t believe the Iris outburst, for example, has damaged the DUP at all. “ I take it you are not in the habit of discussing these matters with anyone from the mainland?

    What, you mean people on the mainland (now I know for sure that you’re definitely not a nationalist) give a shit ? As I have said several times, you’re delusionary.

  • observer

    I have no wish to insist that anyone speak Irish merely that if they do they not be discriminated against

    ——————-

    but its ok for chinese, polish etc to be discriminated against then?

  • Young Catholic

    What about all those young catholics that felt safe enough to sign up to the PSNI in the wake of the St Andrew’s Agreement? If SF pull out of government over the head of devolution of P&J;are they not effectively shafting these young people?

  • percy

    good point young catholic, are the DUP prepared to risk all this progress?

  • Rory

    “but its ok for chinese, polish etc to be discriminated against then?”

    Well, so far as I am aware, Observer, in their respective countries these languages enjoy support and esteem although I understand that, in China, Mandarin is now officially more approved of than Cantonese. And in Haringey these languages along with about 100 other minority languages are catered for in dealings with the council, in education and in law and order matters including the courts. I would be equally happy if translations from Ulster Scots into comprehensible English was also available where necessary. Do you have such translation facilities available for Ulster Scots speakers in the Northern Ireland system? Or perhaps addressing a court in Ulster Scots is a sure sign of one’s innocence as addressing it in Irish would be taken as a clear indication of guilt.

  • Young Catholic

    Friends of mine have joined up over the past year in good faith. They wanted to do a job that would give something back to their communities and one that also paid a decent wage enabling them to support their young families.
    Some would say that they shouldn’t have needed the endorsement of SF to join the PSNI in the first place, but whether they supported this party or not, it did go a long way in allieviating not only their own fears but that of their families that they would not be putting themselves in serious danger anymore.
    You can’t mess with people’s lives like this.

  • Dave

    Sammy, you increasingly sound like the Black Knight from Monty Phyton. The Shinners managed to convince folks like you that the party-political interests of SF were the same thing as the interests of northern nationalists and of a united Ireland. Therefore, the interests of latter were best advanced by advancing the interests of the former. You don’t see the proverbial wood from the trees. SF have done well out of ‘the process’ as a political party, so their interests were advanced, but it is not true that the interests of northern nationalists or a united Ireland were advanced. In fact, the opposite is true: SF have done well at the direct expense of their supporters.

  • Dave

    Young Catholic, SF managed to get the endorsement of 95% of their Ard Fheis for policing on false pretences. Now it’s true that they showed that opposition to policing wasn’t based on ideological grounds as was conveniently claimed, since the Shinners endorsed a police service that was still in ‘occupation’ and thereby still agencies of the British state. That’s an improvement because you can’t revert to murdering people once you dispute your own premise for that campaign, and have acknowledged that your actual concerns relate to the administration of British rule rather than objecting to British rule on grounds of sovereignty and self-determination. However, they didn’t manage to actually alter the hostility of their membership to the police. They ‘managed’ that opposition by selling a pro-state and de jure pro-police policy to their membership as a de facto anti-police policy. Hence, they didn’t sell endorsement on the basis of reform; they sold it on the basis of propaganda such as “putting manners” on the police. In other words, a continuation of sectarian hostility by other means. So, while they have no right to “mess with people’s lives like this” as you aid, they reality is that that is the raison d’etre of psychopathology.

  • Devil Éire

    Rooster

    “For Devil Ire’s benefit, Oirish: a language not spoken by those who advocate it, and, whose advocacy (in English) is not for its own, proclaimed sake, but for sectarian intent.”

    Thank you. I see I should have added another option for Driftwood.

    (g) In order to telegraph your disapproval of the sectarian advocates of the Irish language, you term the language itself “Oirish”.

  • Rooster Cogburn

    Very good Devil ire. Feel free of course to further assist communication (en Anglais) by, if you feel like it, supplying us with a term for falsely imputing sectarianism to a genuinely sincere linguistic advocate, and then we’ll have just about *every* permutation covered.

  • Driftwood

    Devil Ire
    (g) is correct

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Dave, Comrade Stalin

    having summoned up the Black Knight sketch – then permit me to adjust the ‘What did the Romans ever done for us’ sketch ever so slightly. It will now involve two amusing characters one called Comrade Stalin and one calle Dave.

    Comrade Stalin (CS)kicks off: The Englezes are our friends and can be relied upon to stand shoulder to shoulder with us in our battle against the evil terrorists and to prevent the march of Irish Nationalism. When have they ever let us down?

    Dave: Well, they did let all of the IRA terrorists out of jail.

    CS: Yes I know but apart from letting all of their prisoners out of jail – when have they not stood by us?

    Dave: Well they did also design a very funny system of governement to allow them to have terrosists ministers in it.

    CS:Yes, Yes, but apart from those 2 things?

    Dave: Well they did abolish the RUC and the UDR.

    CS: OK, OK , apart from letting their prisoners out and putting them into government, abolisihing state secuity forces when have the Englezes not stood by us.

    Dave: Well they did coerce our best political leader for a generation into sharing power with SF before they had disarmed which resulted in the destruction of the UU.

    CS: OK, OK apart from all those things when have the Englezes not stood with us?

    Dave: Well they did repeal the Governement of Ireland act and esablish a constitutional link with the Irish Republic – which Non Iron ministers MUST fulfill.

    CS: apart from letting their prisoners out , and putting them into government, abolishing state secuity forces, demolishing the UU party, establishing a constitutional link with ROI when have the Englezes not stood by us.

    Dave: Well they did threaten our most fearsome politician into signing the STA ( by his own admission).

    CS: Oh for fecks sake shut up.

    ps There was a ( very, very rare) error in my pervious post – the TUV split the Unionist vote ehich resulted in the lection of the UU. (Banbridge)

  • ulsterfan

    Sammy

    And after all that the Queen’s writ still runs in Crossmaglen and will do so for at least two more generations, the length of time Westminster will have Sovereignty in this part of the island of Ireland.
    Rule Britannia

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    ulsterfan,

    but Kent it aint.

  • ulsterfan

    Do you think it is more like Finchley?

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Its more like Finglas than Finchley.

  • ulsterfan

    Didn’t know Westminster claimed any sovereignty over Finglas .
    Please tell Brian Cowan it may come as a surprise to him.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    I dont think the Englezes are intersted in Finglas either – but you never know – once an imperial aggressor always an imperial aggressor.

  • Devil Ire

    Rooster

    ” Feel free of course to further assist communication (en Anglais) by, if you feel like it, supplying us with a term for falsely imputing sectarianism to a genuinely sincere linguistic advocate, and then we’ll have just about *every* permutation covered.”

    Since I don’t think that this is one of the possible intentions of calling the Irish language “Oirish”, I don’t think this is relevant. But thanks for your contribution.

    Driftwood

    “(g) is correct”

    Indeed.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Sammy etc:

    Comrade Stalin (CS)kicks off: The Englezes are our friends and can be relied upon to stand shoulder to shoulder with us in our battle against the evil terrorists and to prevent the march of Irish Nationalism. When have they ever let us down?

    Having lost the argument, you now find it necessary to misrepresent my point of view rather than dealing with the actual points which were raised.

    It is not, and never has been, my point of view that the British are the friends of NI. It is not my personal objective to “prevent the march of Irish nationalism”, but I don’t think the British have a strong track record on that either.

    Your problem here is that you appear to believe that I am a unionist because I am pointing out certain fundamental political realities, particularly the one which completely destroys your entire narrative, namely the issue concerning the DUP’s leverage against the British government in a marginal or hung parliament. I have no opinion on whether or not this is a good thing – TBH it’s probably a bad thing given the DUP’s fundyism, homophobia and general bigotry – but you can’t escape the reality that they have the British government in a headlock. So what are you saying – that the British government will ignore the DUP ?

    Dave: Well, they did let all of the IRA terrorists out of jail.

    CS: Yes I know but apart from letting all of their prisoners out of jail – when have they not stood by us?

    Small potatoes, and that’s why I voted “yes”, along with a lot of other people. Most of the prisoners were due for release within five years anyway.

    Dave: Well they did also design a very funny system of governement to allow them to have terrosists ministers in it.

    CS:Yes, Yes, but apart from those 2 things?

    The British did not design the d’Hondt system. This was pushed by the SDLP at the all party talks, and at the time it benefitted the SDLP due to the fact that it discriminates in favour of the larger parties, like the SDLP and UUP at that time. The SDLP did not conceive of a future where it would be used against them. So, that’s another straw man knocked down.

    Dave: Well they did abolish the RUC and the UDR.

    CS: OK, OK , apart from letting their prisoners out and putting them into government, abolisihing state secuity forces when have the Englezes not stood by us.

    This straw man is pretty straightforward to dismiss. Sinn Fein took almost ten years to accept the reformed police force. Bear in mind that they had initially demanded the total disbandment of the RUC and it’s replacement by an entirely new force. They didn’t get that.

    Dave: Well they did coerce our best political leader for a generation into sharing power with SF before they had disarmed which resulted in the destruction of the UU.

    CS: OK, OK apart from all those things when have the Englezes not stood with us?

    Best political leader of a generation ? Where do you get that rubbish from ?

    Dave: Well they did repeal the Governement of Ireland act and esablish a constitutional link with the Irish Republic – which Non Iron ministers MUST fulfill.

    A constitutional link with the Irish republic ? What are you wittering on about ?

    So, let’s see. The IRA fought for 25 years to secure the end of Stormont (from 1969-71), then the total withdrawal of Britain following an act of Irish national self determination. Instead, they are back helping run Stormont, a parliament which can be shut down on a whim by the British secretary of state; they’re supporting a police force whose chief constable can be overridden at any time by the British secretary of state. And they disarmed for that. If you want to characterize all of that as British concessions to republicans, that’s fine. I see it as the British conniving, in the cunning way that they do, to bend Sinn Fein to their will.

    ps There was a ( very, very rare) error

    Hmm, I’ll add “arrogant” to your list of personality traits.

    in my pervious post – the TUV split the Unionist vote ehich resulted in the lection of the UU. (Banbridge) .

    By a whisker, in the end. The UUP aren’t a serious election fighting force anymore, and the DUP’s moderation together with the slow but steady rebound for Alliance is putting them under pressure. Robinson is more scared of the TUV than he is of the UUP, whom he wants to use Alliance to decimate (wonder why Alliance were approached with the justice ministry job rather than the UUP?).

  • Rooster Cogburn

    Devil Ire: “Since I don’t think that this is one of the possible intentions of calling the Irish language [sic] “Oirish”, I don’t think this is relevant. But thanks for your contribution.”

    Well here’s yet another one (I’m a very helpful old bird) – you’re not, as it happens, talking about ‘the Irish language’, as you put it. That’s English. Gaeilge is, at most, an Irish language, at worst, it’s a misshapen tool employed by the silliest sort of bigot.

  • aquifer

    why Alliance were approached with the justice ministry job rather than the UUP?

    Because leaders in both SF and DUP have been too close to paramilitarism, and the UUP too close to Orangeism, to provide credible and acceptable justice ministers.

    i.e. They are all unfit for this office, and in the case of SF, quite unfit, with or without the TD’s windy wind-ups.

  • Dave

    Sammy, someone said on this thread that you are pretending to be a nationalist. Now, I don’t mean this to be insulting, but you do read like a tribalist who is essentially indifferent to issues that concern nationalists.

    You list release of prisoners as a benefit, but who does this benefit beyond the members of the murder gangs who were released? It does not benefit their victims or society, and it doesn’t advance nationalism one iota. It is purely a tribal gain.

    You list reform of Her Majesty’s police service as a benefit, but reform of that service wasn’t the stated aim of those who specialised in murdering members of it.

    You have been forced to endorse that which you formerly rejected as a force of occupation, endorsing that occupation in the process. Again, this isn’t actually a problem for a tribalist because reforms can be seen as a gain whereas the fact that it is still Her Majesty’s police service cannot be seen by a nationalist as a gain.

    You list the Shinners being granted the privilege of serving in Her Majesty’s Government devolved administration and administering British rule within her dominion in a constitutionally legitimised and consolidated Northern Ireland as a benefit, but again this is only a gain for a tribalist and is an utter defeat for a nationalist.

    Accepting the constitutional status quo and working towards integrating the formerly disenfranchised into the reformed British political structures isn’t a dynamic that is designed to end it, kid. To change it, you must be opposed to it and encourage others to share your opposition, whereas the actual strategy of the Shinners is the reverse: they encouraged people to accept it and to integrate into it.

    You celebrate a process that is designed to defeat you, and defeat you it surely has. Oh, I forgot, you’re a tribalist and not a nationalist so it’s all a big plus for your ilk.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Dave,

    lets be honest – tribalism makes Slugger work. That’s what we are all doing ( a little sadly ) on here. I could write your lines as you could write mine – so lets not get too precious.

    The Englezes have done a brilliant job, based largely on John Hume’s inital work with Adams in producing the GFA/STA settlement. They are excellently crafted documents, that in my opinion not only bamboozle many in both tribes because of their complexity, but represent a fair settlement.

    I just hope that Robbo who has now picked up the settlement baton from his team mate Ian does not trip over Police and Justice on the final bend.

    Go Robbo go.

  • WindsorRocker

    [i]”If devolution means that the DUP gets what it wants and refuses to budge on any other issues
    Posted by kensei on Aug 25, 2008 @ 01:35 AM”[/i]

    An argument that could also be made about SF…. in fact they are the only ones threatening to bring it down….

  • WindsorRocker

    [i]”good point young catholic, are the DUP prepared to risk all this progress?

    Posted by percy on Aug 25, 2008 @ 02:22 PM”[/i]

    For the love of God…. that’s twisting things slightly……..

    Tell me this, what’s the different between PSNI operations and attitudes now or in the next year and between May 2007 to April 2008?

  • Driftwood

    Its more like Finglas than Finchley.

    Really Sammy

    I didn’t realise Finglas had 5000 British troops garrisoned within its surroundings. Maybe Finchley doesn’t. So we’re more like Colchester then.

  • Devil Éire

    Rooster,

    Actually, I am speaking of “the Irish language”; that is, the language which originated in Ireland and is known in English as “Irish”.

    If it is necessary to state the obvious (and it appears that it is), then I am happy to state that the phrase “the Irish language” does not intend to suggest that Irish is the only, or even the primary, language used on the island of Ireland.

    Perhaps, for the sake of clarity, I should have called it “Oirish”.

  • kensei

    IJP

    … which is pretty much what the Alliance Party’s been saying since 1998.

    Funny how you only listen when it suits your party’s interests.

    I don’t have a party.

    Second, in the bright new dawn of 1998, or indeed 2007 it was still possible to believe we could make it work. After a year it’s not looking good. We might still pull it out, however.

    SF negotiated St Andrews. It has only itself to blame for its failings.

    The roots of this go deeper and into the GFA. Some of what the DUP demanded and was negotiated at St Andrews with regards oversight wasn’t actually negative per se. It’s simply we can’t seem to live with each other.

    Yes, SF made a hash of some elements of St Andrews. What your saying is well, they’ve made their bed and must lie in it. But that is not necessarily the case.

    SF has to learn that it is no longer dealing with “Brits” (the UK Government), it is now dealing directly with its fellow Irish men and women who happen to be British. It’s called reality.

    Actually, they don’t. They are free to take any action they think will move their political agenda forward. Second, the DUP have taken great delight in killing as many SF proposals as possible and gloating about it. It takes two to tango, and there is little indication that the DUP have any serious appetite to move significantly. “Community confidence” is meaningless. At best it equates to “best electoral time for the DUP”.

    Unionism made judicious use of the collapse in the past; after a time frame, decommissioning has occurred. Perhaps similar will occur with devolution and justice powers. That is SF judgment call to make.

  • Driftwood

    Devil maybe you should have called it ‘Gaeilge’..

    And differientiated it from its Scots close relation. Do you know any Manx?

  • kensei

    CS

    Amorphous concepts concerning policing are not something new to Sinn Fein. SF had no fixed definition of it’s requirements for accepting a reformed or new police force in NI, beyond saying that the RUC had to be disbanded and plastic bullets had to be banned. The word “amorphous” is the sticky-tape holding everything here together. We’ve an entire process built deliberately on things being badly or ambiguously defined.

    And now we’ve reached implementation, we need more concrete proposals. Either they happen, or the edifice falls down.

  • Unionism made judicious use of the collapse in the past; after a time frame, decommissioning has occurred. Perhaps similar will occur with devolution and justice powers. That is SF judgment call to make.

    I wasn’t impressed by the Unionists doing it and I’m not impressed by the Shinners doing it. Although the Shinners threatening to do a Trimble and then being attacked by the UUP did provide some Bank Holiday light entertainment.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Driftwood,

    OK then – a lot like Finglas and a bit like Basra – actually thinking of it a lot like Basra as well with a bit of Bagdad thrown in. Colchester is not stuffed full of religious fundamentalists and dirty big barriers keeping the tribes from each others throats.

  • DC

    Perhaps Toxteth?

  • Devil Éire

    Driftwood,

    “Devil maybe you should have called it ‘Gaeilge’..”

    Had I posted in Irish, I would indeed have called it “Gaeilge”. However, since I posted in English, I used the language’s English-language name.

    “And differientiated it from its Scots close relation.”

    Its name in Irish or English unambiguously differentiates it from its close relations. (Did someone mention Gödel some threads ago?)

    “Do you know any Manx?”

    Speaking of Gödel, that infinite set of all things about which I am ignorant alas includes the Manx language.

  • Devil Eire

    (…and HTML, obviously. How does one do diacritical marks in the “Name” field?)

  • does that work?

  • Yes it does – just hold Alt, Shift and E rather than trying anything fancy with the numberpad.

  • Devil Eire

    Sammy,

    Thanks for the hint. It doesn’t seem to work for me in the name field, although it does work in the message body: Éire.