Politician, parade, controversy and a replica gun…..

Have I got the right story?

  • RepublicanStones

    Guy on the right looks like Lord Turd, Lard Laird…damn, i mean Lord Laird of Artyfarty, is it him?

  • Garibaldy

    Is that an Ulster Resistance beret?

  • Mark McGregor

    “I think it is wholly inappropriate that people should display any kind of weaponry, whether it is replica or not. Symbolism like this should not be used, particularly from our party’s perspective.” – Jeffrey Donaldson (not commenting on this photo)

  • Chris Donnelly

    Priceless.

    Great stuff, Mark.

    Guess that’ll put an end to the false outrage expressed after republican parades in Belfast last year and Derry this year.

    Doesn’t wee Jeffrey look pretty stupid following those comments.

    And I’m quite sure Nelson McCausland will follow up his motion in September 2007 condemning the appearance of replica guns at an internment parade with a similar motion ‘deploring’ similar guns on show at this Loyal Order parade.

  • observer

    who is that in the picture?

  • Shore Road Resident

    How do you know that’s not a soldier in a replica sash?

  • Phil Allister

    That’s Cllr. Mark Dunn (UUP) of Larne Council.

    Let’s hear the criticism from the main unionist parties now.

  • Mick Fealty

    For the record let me say that I do not believe that either of them are in the DUP.

  • Driftwood

    Surely there is a law against replica firearms in public. The SA80 is hardly an antique?

  • Mark McGregor

    For the record let me say I never said anyone was in the DUP. I do see sashes, a gun and Unionist politicians. I do quote a DUP politician’s view on some of these things in the comments.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘How do you know that’s not a soldier in a replica sash?’

    Well he doesn’t appear to be wearing his CEFO for one, plus his beret is in a jocker.

  • Michael Shilliday

    I wouldn’t worry Mark, plenty of photos of DUP members with replica guns that day.

  • susan

    #

    For the record let me say I never said anyone was in the DUP. I do see sashes, a gun and Unionist politicians. I do quote a DUP politician’s view on some of these things in the comments.
    Posted by Mark McGregor on Aug 19, 2008 @ 10:59 PM

    True, true. McGregor scores. No rim. No backboard. Nothing but net. Priceless.

  • Pete Baker

    I know Mark didn’t link to the actual story he had in mind, but it’s worth noting.

    Not least since that “historical re-inactment” was of events whereby, according to Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams, “They kept faith with the republican past and they ensured the future of our struggle.”

  • observer

    has Jeffrey changed his stance? why quote him when you have an Ulster Unionist / Tory member brandishing a weapon?
    Lets face it when was the last time a UUP/Tory memebr killed anyone? Its SF who are the party of murderers and terrorists

  • “I think it is wholly inappropriate that people should display any kind of weaponry, whether it is replica or not,” said Mr Donaldson.

    “Symbolism like this should not be used, particularly from our party’s perspective.”

    Sinn Fein defended the marchers’ decision to parade the replica weapon and said its presence had a historical significance.

    So Gerry would have approved …

    Éirígí?

  • Steve

    Nevin

    Its not the point whether Gerry approves but whether Jeffery Donaldson doesn’t or is it the normal hypocritical screaming of nationalist violence bad unionist violence good

  • Turgon

    Observer,
    Although you are correct it was pretty spectacularly foolish (leave aside in my view wrong) for politicians or anyone else for that matter to be parading around with guns replica or otherwise unless they are members of the armed forces and on a proper military parade.

    Mark McGregor,
    I cannot really complain about this one on any score. There are times when one has to admit that someone from “the other side” has scored a complete victory. Now (unless there is something I am missing) seems to be one of those occasions. By the way how do you put pictures into blogs? I cannot get the machine to do it.

  • x

    What complete and utter prats.

    while not into dressing up myself I have always felt – each to their own and if that wsan’t part of the belfast pride it should have been.

    For the mayor – or possibly former mayor of larne to run round the streets dressed as a camp soldier surely he was on the wrong parade. But didn’t he speak out against the belfast pride last year? Maybe they wouldn’t let him parade with his toy gun!

    The good news is that looking like an arse, no one would have been in the slightest threated by him.

  • Mark McGregor

    Turgon,

    I’ll send you an email on embedding pics (I had to ask Pete).

    Mark.

  • Pete Baker

    Hmm.. well if you had asked me more recently, Mark, as well as hosting any images on an independent platform, I’d also recommend resizing any images to fit the Slugger template.

  • Mark McGregor

    Pete,

    The second I know how to resize an image I’ll be on that. Maybe we should take this to email?

  • Pete Baker

    Mark

    Maybe you [and that includes others throwing images around] should try mastering that skill before attempting to use images in a post?

    Email me if you like. But there are plenty of free [Photoshop-like] image manipulators out there.

  • Mark McGregor

    Thanks. Email on its way.

    [hopefully Pete has now finished with his technical critique and perhaps we can get back on topic]

  • Phil Allister

    Shilliday-

    You’re ALL a disgrace.

  • Michael Shilliday

    Now now Phil, let’s not go down this road.

  • Harry Flashman

    Try PIXresizer Mark, it is quick to download and easy peasy to use.

  • RG Cuan

    I wouldn’t have put it past aul Laird Laird put it’s hard to believe the other eejit is actually currently a politician…. or maybe it’s Diamond Dan’s new outfit?

  • elvis Parker

    Mark Dunn. Silly Boy!

  • Most interesting aspect of this thread is the whataboutery and obfuscation coming from those most closely associated with the admin/running of this blog. Says it all really.

    Fair play to Turgon for his straight plain dealing on this.

  • bisto

    My understanding is that the theme of the float was “Orangemen serving down through the years” or some such. It showed John Laird as a Volunteer, Mark Dunn as a soldier and various others as people who served in the froces of law and order through the generations. BIG difference between that and mock-up Provos parading through the streets as you well know Mr. McGregor.

    Dressing up isn’t really my thing but to attempt to equate a float in a massive parade which celebrates the legitimate forces of law and order with a celebration of the Provos is duplicitous.

  • bisto

    Also, good to see Phil Allister has joined us. Maybe he could tell us how many family members are getting paid for European funds….

  • Dave

    There is an obvious difference between dressing up as a soldier and dressing up as a member of a sectarian murder gang. An army is legal, and a perfectly legitimate entity to honour and to represent as community festivals, whereas a sectarian murder gang who specialised in dismembering members of the public for selfish gain is most definitely not.

  • Turgon

    I do not want to play the man too much, but on a somewhat unrelated issue can I point out that Lord Laird’s costume looks little more ridiculous than what he normally wears.

  • Traditional Unionist Voleburger

    Can I say I find a silly and identifiable civilian dressed as a member of the nations army in desert camouflage less threatening than some masked man waving a gun around in a parade where the display could be perceived as terrorist related.

    I understand the street theatre was pitched as something else, buts that was rubbish lets face it, it was that T word Gerry likes accuse others of and not that C word he likes to accuse others of even more, (rather than the reality where Gerry’s relationship with the big C was, well, rather different). This pic. is offensive, not for the contrived reasons given out by those who would be cheering if the flags were a different colour, but because some berk from Ballycivvy has no business caricaturing Her Majesty’s Armed Forces at a time of active engagement. Comparing pictures of identifiable men in recognised British fatigue to some guy in a balaclava at a provie Sinn Fein do is really scraping the gun barrel.

    It is, however, embarrassing, and profitable to those who seek to mitigate their own indiscretions, and very easy to portray in this manner and anyone, never mind any politician, should have been able to see that. This is a case of total mental incompetence and has Laird written all over it like a dodgy bog wall, the contrived, idiotic musings of this man on the twelfth and Prod brand representation needs to be dismissed as a matter of urgency, degrading our heritage by aping a hedonistic, promiscuous festival from hotter climates with a reputation for public incontinence, wearing silly hats and vapid mime like reaction to the disgraceful antics of sinn fein will result in nothing but the erosion of our dignity (those hats), Moral justice (gun men, even the good ones, in parades are for others, no matter how innocent the reference, and referencing support for HM Forces is innocent, if deeply disrespectful when done like the above) and genuine character (stating our solemn tradition of this warm family day should be compared to a festival where Calvinism, and its associated mores and wants, is the last thing thats pumping)

    All Orange men need to get as far away from Laird as possible and never Ever were silly hats or carry soap bar guns again.
    BOO! He is silly Billy doing silly things !

  • Garibaldy

    Ah well, were the Volunteers a legitimate source of law and order? Threatening the government of the day with armed force to get what they wanted. Hardly the stuff of subservience. Besides which, the Volunteers had been disbanded by the government before the Orange lodges came into existence. A yeomanry uniform might have been fair enough.

    BTW, does anybody know if the councillor has served in the army? Because to be honest, if I were an ex-soldier (say from that new lodge of ex-UDR people) and I saw somebody running around dressed like that when soldiers were dying in Afghanistan who hadn’t, I’d be very pissed off.

  • Garibaldy

    Hmmm. I seem to find myself thinking like the TUV. Disturbing.

  • bisto

    Garibaldy

    Maybe it was a Yeomanry uniform, I don’t know….any historical re-enactment buffs out there?

  • Ms Wiz

    Never mind the gun, I find it more disturbing that someone openly parades as a soldier wearing a sash.

  • Turgon

    bisto,
    No you could not be more wrong: that is Lord laird’s standard wear. I am sure he does his Tesco shopping dressed like that.

  • Garibaldy

    It might be intended to represent the British army looking again. Regardless, it looks ridiculous. On that Derry parade Pete linked, can you imagine the fighting among the provos to get to hold the replica bren gun?

  • fair_deal

    Two threads and I can recycle my comment.

    Message discipline has been piss poor lately.

  • Traditional Unionist VoleBurger (with Relish)

    Fear not my fellow sentient snack ! We comestible Prodie voles are a different breed altogether.

    A reasonable point from ms. Wiz,
    But one could argue that the sash identified a community rather than an ideology. The display is a far cry from the infiltration of the state by private clubs with an agenda that Wiz infers (and anyone arguing this from an Irish Republican perspective needs to re-sit that GCSE history). The agenda of the order is civil subservience to the legitimate law of the land and Crown under the terms of the constitution, making sinister connotations on the civil involvement of lodge members contrived. No doubt it will be in the interest our friends in the great glass house to argue otherwise.

  • voleburger with cheese

    Fair Deal,
    I respectfully submit that rigid application of the playing with balls not men rule would inhibit legitimate comment, we can comment on action till the cows come home, the suggestion that a serial candidate for such scrutiny should not be subject to comment themselves is not conducive to a robust discussion.

    Perhaps in a moment of japery I myself did use a colourful phrase or two and I apologise for and to anyone who got the impression I was accusing Baron Laird of Artigarvan of graffiti in a public conveniance – this abstract expression was to convey what I felt was the character of the situation and my opinion on the mans input to public life rather than a literal statement on his private activites, this is not on the same level as saying “Garabaly’s ma was a common rich tea”, or the like.

  • McGrath

    Why would members of a religious fraternity be associated with public displays of replica weaponry?

  • the kettle
  • Garibaldy

    A rich tea? Dark chocolate homewheat more like.

  • Steve

    Can I say I find a silly and identifiable civilian dressed as a member of the nations army in desert camouflage less threatening than some masked man waving a gun around in a parade where the display could be perceived as terrorist related

    Depends which community you are from, I would think a Belfast catholic would find the ski mask wearer considerably less threatening then the fancy dress soldier even if he does look as dangerous as a feather duster

  • Phil Allister

    Perhaps Cllr. Dunn should resign his position on council.

    By-election in Larne anyone?

  • burgerboy

    “Depends which community you are from” – Sounds right Steve – armed foreigner / armed kin ? eh ?

    You know they say history repeats itself, and I suppose by your logic, the Iraqi people have more to fear from the invading yanks than the local militias. superficially here as there, ‘foreign army’/ native militia’ would spell out the same logic, unfortunately acquainting ourselves with the realties for civilians, army and the criminals in both countries confirms that not only is your proposition wrong here, it is wrong altogether. for example :

    “Lingering at the mosque are a handful of residents whose loved ones were also abducted, looking for clues.

    “They said they were just taking him for a few minutes, for an investigation,” said Karima, who only wanted to be identified by her first name, as her eyes filled with tears. “But they never released him and we heard he might be buried behind the mosque.” – report for an al-Sadir militia’s mosch (don’t be silly) in a Shiite area of Baghdad.

    Sound familiar Steve ?

    Here as There partial elements in the media and society can create a false impression by outline the superficial parameters and applying a, rather chauvinistic, elementary logic (elementary reasoning is the firm friend of sophistry, I say.)

    Here as There flag waivers and foreign cheerleaders speak of native heroes and foreigen devils to gullible chumps, while natives are kneecapped (or al-kneecapped), controlled financially extorted and terrorised generally by their self appointed defenders, with the kangaroo court, the favoured families the lethal rumour etc. all in place, There as Here.

    there is nowhere outside of Sinn Fein fantasy where a Brit knock at the door could inspire the same terror as a visit from the bhoys. this translates to broader discussion on these parades.

    (Garibaldy I’d have had you down as the issue of a fox’s classic ;>)

  • fair_deal

    TUVburger

    My reference to message discipline was not about commenting policy on slugger it was about DUP press statements/media handling of late.

  • Garibaldy

    Burgerboy,

    Maybe I’m adopted.

  • big burger

    ah. my bad. I did not see the first thread.
    Its a sad mistake – but when your a minced and reformed fillet of vole looking at a picture of two UUP men, sychronised DUP PR does not spring to mind……..

    ps. –
    My silly names are not in any way a statement of endorsment for TUV.

  • Rooster Cogburn

    Am I the only one who finds John Laid a turn, a dash of colour, an attempt at wit, a boon to cabbies, a joke shared, a laugh laughed? Obviously totally agree with everyone who makes the point that there’s no valid point of comparison between the army & terrorists, yadda, yadda, yadda, but on the big issue, you’re all fools: nothing beats a Mint Viscount with a mug of milky, sugary tea. Nothing, end of.

  • the final burger

    Mint Viscount ?

    Someone call Iris Robinson !

    (its the laugh laughed at the expense of our culture, degraded by the head gear of buffons and cheap yankie doodle floats, all of which are reacionary, that gets me fliped)

    (sorry – last one, I promise)

  • final burger 2 – hotdog attack

    Garibaldy,

    if a fox’s classic and a wholewheat dark copulating make an italian confection how do you now what religion it is ? wait and see what ear he wants peirced I suppose…..

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Classic mark, absolute classic!

    These Unionist apologists will leap at anything though won’t they. Foot in hoof seems to be rampant in Unionism, didn’t you guys have an older sibling/Uncle/faither etc. when you were growing up telling them to shut their idiotic mouths now and then? It might have helped.

    Ps. To those that don’t realise it, but to a very, very large section of the community the army and various militia’s legal or otherwise. WERE the terrorists.

    Anyhow there might just be a few more straws floating about on the wind for the eedjits to grasp onto.

  • Garibaldy

    Burger,

    Surely you know what sexuality it is if it wants to get its ear pierced rather than its religion? What I want to know is, chicken or beef burger?

  • Rooster Cogburn

    No they weren’t. The terrorists were the people everyone agreed were the terrorists. Let’s line up the two sides. The people saying the Provos *weren’t* terrorists: Republicans; and, c.1970-c.1987 the USSR. The people saying the Provos were terrorists, and should stop and disarm: Unionists; the SDLP; the British Government; the Irish government; the US government; all the other governments in the EEC/EC/EU; the protestant churches; and, of course, the Catholic church. Hmmmn, but then of course, Prionsa, whatever have majorities or morality mattered to Irish Republicans when they’ve wanted to murder people?

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Rooster

    Moralities and majorities, even perceptions. It’s all in the eye of the beholder. No one’s hands were clean, no-one’s. The moral majority(sic), in this case the legal and illegal militia’s of the British state in Ireland could also be perceived to terrorists themselves. The perception of them is not based on how any other group in the war was perceived.

  • Rooster Cogburn

    As the derrymen would put it, away awfe and deep-fry a mars bar: you make about as much sense as your semtex, sorry, syntax.

  • the burger that would not die

    Those who plead perception peddle lies.

    the Plea of this ‘large community’, that those they despise were the terrorist problem, is only slightly disparaged by the Fact of their support for, celebration of and commemoration of, er, terrorism. the best you can aim for is equivalence and even that must rest on exaggeration and myth.

    garibaldy, Vole ! Prodie vole !

  • Rooster Cogburn

    While the burger may well not be dead, plainly it’s laced with CJD.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Oh dear

    Is this what passes for discourse?

    Perception is usually not something that a community whisks out of thin air, in most cases those percieved have to commit acts, or behave in a manner to support said perception. However those complaining about perception are quite right, it is probably a bit too too namby pamby………………..how does reality sound?

  • a very disappointed ham burgler

    I thought the family with hooves and feet was weird enough (and I’m a burger talking to a biscuit online).

    But the suggestion that the (fine boys and girls) of the British army and (ahem) loyalist-area gangs are the Irish civilian moral majority floored me. Unlike, I suspect, that well balanced, two hoofs / two feet Protestant quadruped family. Is this the sort hate-myths they teach them in Gaelic schools ?
    No wonder they are stoning Orange halls, the poor blighters must be terrified !

  • Rooster Cogburn

    If the only people saying, we murdering murderers *aren’t* murderers are the murdering murderers (and their fanboy supporters), while *everyone* else is saying, actually, you murdering murderers *are* murderers, it’s really much less complex that all this erudite discussion about ‘perception’ might lead the casual, passing deconstructionist to ‘believe’ [sic]. If you’re not careful, people might almost begin to suspect you’re vainly trying to lay down a smokescreen of spoof.

  • I kissed a burger, and I liked it.

    whilst you are right that perception is related to experience, this is an excuse of racists the world over, it is not necessarily relate to experience of event but to experience of presentation of belief by peers, convenience of desire, and more often on simple prejudice, and is then prone to the sort of disingenuous justification fantasy you espouse.

  • Gutter Prose

    ‘Also, good to see Phil Allister has joined us. Maybe he could tell us how many family members are getting paid for European funds.…’
    Posted by bisto on Aug 20, 2008 @ 10:14 AM

    Phil Allister: No response? Or perhaps you are preparing your local media campaign and by-election bid in Larne Town DEA?

    For what it’s worth, my view on the replica weapons: there can be no comparison – save for the bare fact that replicas were carried in a public procession – or moral equivalence with this demonstration and SF/IRA’s ’Truth Parade’/hunger strike/internment/other republican displays of aggression and glorification of unlawful violence. Well, from a law-abiding citizen’s perspective. Perhaps Phil Allister’s view differs?

  • Steve

    Gutter prose

    Much of the violence perpetrated by the crown forces was as illegal as that done by the IRA difference being that the lawful authorities actually attempted to prosecute the IRA criminals while the ruc and squaddie murderers were more likely to get a promotion than a gaol sentence

  • Gutter Prose

    Thanks Steve. Of course I disagree with what you say. This thread probably isn’t the place for ‘an odd bad apple in the security forces who was doubtlessly prosecuted for criminal conduct’ versus an organisation whose ‘ethos was to murder, and everyone within that organisation subscribed to that ethos and espoused it within their community’ debate. This usually leads to the old ‘legitimacy of the state stalemate’. Example: “lawful authorities actually attempted to prosecute the IRA criminals while the ruc and squaddie murderers were more likely to get a promotion than a gaol sentence” – individuals committing criminal acts in a lawful society expect prosecution by the state – IRA men would expect promotion. Make sense? Good to see someone defend Phil though.

    To be honest, I am bereft of any other reasonable explanation of his position on this thread, other than him promoting the anti-rational republican web of self-delusion that you have outlined.

  • Steve

    Gutter prose

    individuals committing criminal acts in a lawful society expect prosecution by the state

    tell that to the Bloody Sunday victims or the relatives of Majella O Hare, Peter Mc Bride, Aiden Mc Anespie, Karen Campbell or Martin Peake

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    I kissed a girl, and I liked it

    >>whilst you are right that perception is related to experience, this is an excuse of racists the world over< >it is not necessarily relate to experience of event but to experience of presentation of belief by peers< >convenience of desire, and more often on simple prejudice, and is then prone to the sort of disingenuous justification fantasy you espouse.< >you’re vainly trying to lay down a smokescreen of spoof.<

  • Is that a toy gun?

    It is hard to tell with the SA80 lol

  • Dewi

    If Limivady has 40 parades a year doesn’t that have a bad effect on the economy? Do all the shops shut and that or just for the big ones?

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Dewi

    I’m sure that is your evil paranoid perception at work.

    Where have the fantasy spotters gone anyhow?

  • Rooster Cogburn

    Dearie me, Dewi’s concern for the chamber of commerce in Limavady is really most affecting. But wait! What if the parades bring cash into the town’s economy? Oh but then Dewi would have to change his mind about Orange parades. I do hope he’s actually opposed to them because of simple sectarian prejudice, rather than the pious concern he claims for Limavady’s traders. I mean, the thought of someone posting on Slugger having to change their mind . . .

  • the (sort of) impartial observer

    Anyone carrying an imitation firearm in a public place “shall be guilty of an offence unless he shows that he had lawful authority or reasonable excuse for doing so”.

    Personally, I can’t imagine a reasonable excuse. Arrest the lot (on both sides) I say! Mark Dunn looks like he’s having an early midlife crisis and he’s taken up paintball a little too enthusiastically. There’d quickly be a stain on that uniform if someone actually shot at him. As someone who was not born in Northern Ireland and only came here in a period of relative stability, I don’t find this offensive as much as completely unnecessary and quite ridiculous. As rightly pointed out in an earlier post, I could see actual servicemen and women being extremely offended by this charade – particularly as the subject in question is certainly no role-model of sobriety or sincerity.

    In arguments like this the question always seems to be ‘did the other side do it first?’ If they did, then it’s ok. Where has that attitude got NI society? Why are people completely unwilling to use their common sense and examine whether it’s right or wrong, or whether it offends ordinary moderate people, instead of thriving on getting under the skin of the hard-liners on the other side. Why are so few people giving their opinion on the act of allowing a somewhat slimey public representative to parade around, cheaply playing off that uniform – rather than arguing about the minutiae of the comparison with other idiots with different replica guns?

  • the (sort of) impartial observer

    Anyone carrying an imitation firearm in a public place “shall be guilty of an offence unless he shows that he had lawful authority or reasonable excuse for doing so”.

    Personally, I can’t imagine a reasonable excuse. Arrest the lot (on both sides) I say! Mark Dunn looks like he’s having an early midlife crisis and he’s taken up paintball a little too enthusiastically. There’d quickly be a stain on that uniform if someone actually shot at him. As someone who was not born in Northern Ireland and only came here in a period of relative stability, I don’t find this offensive as much as completely unnecessary and quite ridiculous. As rightly pointed out in an earlier post, I could see actual servicemen and women being extremely offended by this charade – particularly as the subject in question is certainly no role-model of sobriety or sincerity.

    In arguments like this the question always seems to be ‘did the other side do it first?’ If they did, then it’s ok. Where has that attitude got NI society? Why are people completely unwilling to use their common sense and examine whether it’s right or wrong, or whether it offends ordinary moderate people, instead of thriving on getting under the skin of the hard-liners on the other side. Why are so few people giving their opinion on the act of allowing a somewhat slimey public representative to parade around, cheaply playing off that uniform – rather than arguing about the minutiae of the comparison with other idiots with different replica guns?

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    LOL @ Rooster Cogburn @ 10:55 AM

    See Dewi I told you.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘I do hope he’s actually opposed to them because of simple sectarian prejudice..’

    As any sane person should be, the simple sectarian prejudice the Order propagate shows them for the backwards boyos they are.