Dunclug bonfire goes ahead

The Dunclug anti-internment bonfire went ahead. Union and Ulster flags were burned as well as a SF recruitment poster. Members of the 250 crowd who were interviewed attacked Sinn Fein and the conditions in the area. As regard the house attack that followed the previous removal of bonfire material:

A well-respected Protestant community activist was wrongly implicated in the bonfire’s removal. His home was attacked and he has since left Dunclug.

UPDATE: Trouble flared at another bonfire in Coleraine with one man seriously injured (Hat tip mm).

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    And this just in from our political correspondent: “Officials and soldiers propping up the old regime were seen scrambling onto the last of the helicopters leaving from the grounds of Stormont headed to the safety of Britain.

    Thousands of fanatical republicans – all smiling laughing and cheering – ran up the green lawns of the parliament and declared that The Republic had arrived.

    Everyone was immediately given a big house a car and a job.

  • Nothing herralds the dawning of the new era in public relations in, Dunclug Ballymena, like a good old Bonfire commerating recreational sectarian bigotry. Dunclug!! Have you seen the state of the place. Still, Long live Ireland.

  • Bemused

    Scum, scum, scum, scum, scum, scum, scum.

    “Loyalists have band parades in this town every weekend in summer…”
    Yes – they’re offensive, verminous scum.

    “….but we’re not meant to have one bonfire a year to commemorate the wrongful imprisonment of innocent men.”
    If you want to ape the offensive scum of loyalism – off you go chaps, knock yourselves out.

    “We’re second-class citizens…” You’re certainly acting like it.

    What rock have these turds squelched out from under? These pieces of human sewage are about as ‘Irish’ and ‘Republican’ as Johnny Adair.

  • Greagoir o Frainclin

    Dunclug, sounds like something outta the Flintstones. What a bunch a morans!

  • McGrath

    Same plot, different players.

    Surely we can come up with something to distract and amuse these bonfire types?

  • “Dunclug is depressing. Many houses are blocked up. Unemployment is high.”

    The problems here are massive – how can it be moved forward???

    disenchanted residents

    depressing location

    depressing mindsets

    unemployment (too much free time)

    Sinn Fein unhitching the undesirables

    no leadership

    is a political aspiration (whether achievable or not) the catalyst?

    Do they matter? surely they should be encouraged to move on – or are they unmovable??

    no one from the area or know the score???

  • Greagoir o Frainclin

    Is Dunclug twinned with Rathcoole?

    ..for they have a lot in common!

  • Democratic

    Are you familiar with Rathcoole Greagoir or is it just what you’ve read/heard?
    Just interested…..

  • slug

    Ballymena actually has a low unemployment rate.

    The fact that people in Dunclug are unemployed is not for want of jobs in the area.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Republicans, who needs them?

  • mm
  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    “Republicans, who needs them?”

    Loyalists.

  • The news report, linked to above, stated…
    In 2006, Catholic teenager Michael McIlveen was beaten to death by loyalists in Ballymena. “On his anniversary three months ago, I was set upon by four carloads of loyalists as I walked home,” says O’Neill. “‘Get the Fenian bastard!’ they yelled. I was beaten with baseball bats and stabbed in the head.”

    Maggie, a middle-aged Dunclug resident, says: “Loyalist bands play the Sash near where Michael McIlveen was murdered, yet we’re not allowed a bonfire?”

    Has Michael McIlveens [Mickey-Bo] death had a continuing influence on the people of Dunclug/Dunvale/Fisherwick? Anyone from those areas?

  • RK

    Pathetic really – i wonder what in the name of god all the polish residents of Dunclug thought of it! Are they being intimidated by them as well? Other reports by the BBC were mentioning a girl getting attacked does anyone know more about that?

    £5m – seriously, you’d need about £55m to even begin educating that lot. At least we know from Bebo that some of them can write!

  • Peter Brown

    Also interesting to see someone confirm my assertion which other contradicted on the previous thread that SF used to organise this!

    I drove past Dunclug this morning and see that the mural painters are hard at work and there are more boarded up houses than on my last visit – the protestant exodus continues…..

  • Paul McMahon

    Great to see that the Dnclug Spidey Army are lighting tyres, playing flutes, burning flags and getting drunk for Ireland’s freedom – horay! beidh ár lá línn roimh i bhfad.

    Are these idiots serious? how in the name of fuck is encouraging a bonfire with all it’s inherent alcohol abuse, [including minors], violence and general anti social behaviour that surrounds such event going to strike a blow for Ireland?

    They are just mirror images of neanderthal loyalists who engage in the same “culture”

    “We’re not meant to have one bonfire a year to commemorate the wrongful imprisonment of innocent men”

    Internment was thirty seven years ago and it’s NEVER going to e repeated. I wonder how may of the “Republicans” remember, or even know, what Intenment was?

    “In other nationalist areas, paramilitary emblems are disappearing. A new mural has been painted in Dunclug: a masked gunman beside a ‘PSNI keep out’ sign.

    Holy fuck…that says it all, Paddy Murray seems to have done a good job.

  • qubol

    Hi Peter
    As you mentioned in your last post about SF members from Kerry or whatever being previously involved I wouldn’t deny it. But as you seem to know the people we’re talking about here without naming names I think if we’re being honest these guys were complete morons who seemed to be doing there own thing in the estate. If anything the mistake was to not know what these party card waving idiots were up to. So I think it would be only fair to comment that since SF have rid themselves of these idiots, brought in some new faces, have more idea of what’s going on they are now moving against these thugs and their loyalist aping antics.

    As for the estate – wee milee hit the nail on the head. the estate has no leadership. At the last meeting of the Community Association some of the members actually walked out in protest at Sinn Fein’s opposition to the Bonfire. They see this problem as a rights issue. This is our right, blah blah blah. They’re as thick as some in the Orange Order – so selfishly focussing on their supposed rights they fail to see their responsibilities. Its ironic that these people will suffer most from what they want most.

  • qubol – are they impossible to lead?

    also what kind of support do they have (party card waving idiots) in the estate – they can’t have 100% support surely?? If not how much – 50%?

    If Sinn Fein have a rough ride in attempting to intervene then who exactly is left to bring the initiative?

    “they fail to see their responsibilities.”

    This is so true. more responsibility less degeneration.

  • Garibaldy

    Paul, don’t confuse matters by using the correct Irish instead of the Tiocfaidh ár lá abortion that the Provos came up with. It might prove too much for some people’s minds to handle.

  • shane

    [i]’Republicans, who needs them?’

    “Loyalists”[/i]

    you mean loyalists?

  • dunreavynomore

    I know little about Dunclug,Iknow something about republicanism.
    Bemused describes people in Dunclug as scum, scum verminous scum… human sewage..” Anyone who describes any people in such terms is a strange kind of republican and would suit the nazi persuasion better.
    Quobol with his/her “thick”and PaulMcMahon with his “Spidey army” and “idiots”are only slightly better.
    The message from these people is very clear, “The poor, the less educated, all those who will not follow orders from our glorious ‘movement’ should just dissapear” The laughter of our children myarse.what a selfish opinionated, bigheaded clique these posters portray the presentrepublican movement to be

  • Ulsters my homeland

    dunreavynomore

    “[i]I know little about Dunclug,Iknow something about republicanism.2[/i]

    so what is republicanism? is there any other attribute than being against a monarchy?

  • Bemused

    Oh dear dunreavynomore – you make the schoolboy howler of assuming that I’m a member of ‘the republican movement’. Not too surprising an error I suppose given that you’re an apologist for the filth of Dunclug. Intellectual rigour is not, I suspect, one of your fortes…..

  • dunreavynomore

    ulstersmyhomeland.

    “so what is republicanism?”
    In its ideal terms it is about full citizenship for all which would sit uneasily with those who call fellow citizens “scum, turds.” Republicanism goes far beyond being against a monarchy and the fact that the term is abused by dictators around the world does not take away from the inherent decency of republicanism.

    Bemused, I am not an apologist for “the filth of Dunclug”. As I said I know nothing about the place but am completely opposed to anyone who describes others as “scum, filth, turds….” Your use of such words to describe fellow human beings certainly puts you on the same wavelength as the Nazis. Glad to hear that you are not a member of the republican movement, there’s hope for them yet while they’re keeping the likes of you out!

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]In its ideal terms it is about full citizenship for all which would sit uneasily with those who call fellow citizens “scum, turds.” Republicanism goes far beyond being against a monarchy and the fact that the term is abused by dictators around the world does not take away from the inherent decency of republicanism.

    Bemused, I am not an apologist for “the filth of Dunclug”. As I said I know nothing about the place but am completely opposed to anyone who describes others as “scum, filth, turds….” Your use of such words to describe fellow human beings certainly puts you on the same wavelength as the Nazis. Glad to hear that you are not a member of the republican movement, there’s hope for them yet while they’re keeping the likes of you out!”[i]

    Thankyou. There’s a lot to consider

  • qubol

    dunreavymore – I’m a Dunclugite (if such a word exists), I know the people I’m talking about and I have would have no qualms in calling some of them morons or thick because they bloody are. They know nothing of what they claim to fight for, they’re bigots, thugs, bullies and it’s incredibly depressing that they have come to wield such control over the estate. I think its fair enough to charge someone with snobbery when they shout scum! or spide! but highlighting their ignorance isn’t.

  • Gareth

    dunreavymore

    “The poor, the less educated” as you describe them contain within their ranks a very, very large majority who cause no havoc. This particular bonfire-supporting cohort do cause a great deal of unwanted havoc. They deserve to be criticised. Do not lump the lumpenproletariat with the honourable proletariat.

  • Paul McMahon

    Well Dunreaveymore I know a bit about Republicanism myself but thanks for presuming that the message from me is that “The poor, the less educated, all those who will not follow orders from our glorious ‘movement’ should just disappear” anyway.

    You see, as a Republican and a socialist, I actually care about the poor and the less educated along with the infirm, the disabled, the old and the other marginalised sections of our society. I want to see the equilibrium of treatment and equality of opportunity for such groups. In short, I care about the betterment of my community and class and the welfare of society in general.

    What I don’t care for is a group of hedonistic malcontents who use the topic of a bonfire to ape their loyalist counterparts and partake in an orgy of anti-social behaviour, sullying the noble cause of Republicanism in the process,[want evidence of their “Republicanism”? go to the “The Community no Longer Wants This” thread], and who offer “the poor, the less educated” and all the other unfortunate deprived residents of Dunclug no vehicle whatsoever for improvement of their conditions.

    So Dunreaveymore, I’d appreciate in the future if you’re replying to my posts please remember that I’m reasonably adept are using coherent speech, am able to articulate my views to others and don’t need you to patronisingly and arrogantly convey my “message” to anyone. However don’t let a minor factor like that get in the way of your all consuming fervently zealous critical rants about the SF leadership [and god knows there’s much to e critical about].

  • Ulster Native

    “Union and Ulster flags were burned as well as a SF recruitment poster”

    It was N.I flags burnt, not Ulster flags. As the article clearly mentions.

  • Bemused

    (To the tune of ‘Food, glorious food’)

    Scum, verminous scum,
    Addled on e-tabs and vodka.
    Turning Dunclug into dung,
    Batter them – don’t ye just wanta?

    Strutting around with tracksuits and VD,
    They’ll try to annoy and upset ya.
    They eat deep-fried lard and drink WKD,
    and want Dunclug to become South Ossetia.

    Oh, scum, verminous scum,
    led by some wanker called Smiley.
    I’d love to boot him up his bum,
    he thinks he’s a hard man – not likely.

    Bonfires and flag-burning – fair enough,
    if your mother’s your sister and auntie.
    Marching and drinking and sectarian guff,
    that’s fine if you live in Whiteabbey.

  • Dallite

    I hear that the police are looking for one of the most prominent bonfire supporters in relation to an assualt on a child at the bonfire on Friday night. Disgusting.

  • jone

    Ah yes Mr Smiley…it seems an appropriate time to point out how highly regarded he is in Republican circles.

    When he was on remand in Maghaberry he so impressed three seasoned operators from East Tyrone that they felt compelled to knock fuck out of him in the exercise yard and did 28 days in solitary for their troubles.

  • dunreavynomore

    Paul McMahon et al,
    I repeat that I have no personal knowledge of Dunclug or anywhere in that part of the world so in no way am I backing up any particular behaviour.
    I am, however, still disgusted at the gutter crawling going on here in describing people in the most disgusting ways, especially the abuse from bemused. Bemused is obviously in a class of his or her own but the other references to ‘idiots’ and so on beg the question as to whether there is an elitist element here. Gareth, for instance, seems to believe that the ‘lumpenproletariat’ are beyond the pale. What are the people you so describe to do then Gareth? Beg you for help? Remember that the ‘bone fire cohort’ contained the ‘cream’of ‘republicanism’ just a few years ago so are we to assume that they also are idiots and low lifes?
    Paul, “equilibrium” or even equality “of treatment” isn’t much benefit if the treatment in itself is wrong.
    Put the books down and get out out and about among the ordinary people.

  • Gareth

    dunreavynomore

    ‘Beg you for help?’

    Noone needs anyone’s help not to cause trouble. It is easy. You just don’t do anything. It does not need any effort. You just behave like anyone else. A passive process, no activity required.

    I don’t see this through the silly cloud of ‘Republicanism’, the same way I don’t see the equivalent behaviour through the silly cloud of ‘Loyalism’. It is antisocial behaviour. There is no excuse for it.

  • Bemused

    Precisely Gareth – excellent post.

  • jone

    Ahhh Bebo, the text of the people, how we loves ya…this was posted on Mr Smiley’s profile…there’s a bit of text speak but you’ll get the gist:

    “now i will tell u exactly wat i think of since u were on a beat the world mode last nite,who didnt u threaten to hit the min they stood up to u? ur carry on last nite…
    u acted like a complete arsehole made a pure dick out of urself,and just so u know,u still dont fear me love and never will,u are a nobody..
    wat have u got going for u? nothing,and hitting my 16 year old cousin..and by the way SHE has only turned 16 last month,LEAVING HER WITH A FRACTURED CHEEK BONE…. if thats wat make’s feel hard,god love u,but hey at least the weeins ur hurting are getting older,believe me smiley,u are a true hood,and u call urself a republican…i want to know which faction of republican movements like having thugs in there organisation’s?putting ur chest out to me an all,going to whip the floor with me were u?..how u fear people i will never know..with the likes of u about we will never have a nice island to live on………..woman beater..”

  • jone

    Here’s the link, scroll to the Comments section

    http://skin.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=5379879459

  • Paul McMahon

    Well Dnreaveynomore, where do I start?

    “References to ‘idiots’ and so on beg the question as to whether there is an elitist element here”

    Begs the question from who D?, that’s a subjective preposition. It was me that used the word idiots to describe these people and I am certainly not what you term elitist.

    What would you call the spokesperson for the “Dunclug Young Republicans” who describes himself as a “party animal” and goes on to post pictures of himself and his mates on a public forum standing in fields and drinking WKD type drinks?

    What would you call someone who assaults three people because they disagreed with him over a bonfire in full view of a recording television camera?

    What would you call the people who forced a respected community worker to leave his home of over thirty years because of a disagreement over same bonfire?

    They’re not only idiots D, they’re thuggish idiots.

    “Paul, “equilibrium” or even equality “of treatment” isn’t much benefit if the treatment in itself is wrong”.

    I don’t understand this comment. Can you please elaborate?

    “Put the books down and get out and about among the ordinary people”

    I’m forty years of age born and bred in West Belfast. I’ve been out and about among the ordinary people my entire life.

    Put the books down eh?, nice bit of inverted elitism there D.

  • Bemused

    HHHmmmm….just been looking through the amoeba Smiley’s Bebo page. Interesting photograph here –

    http://skin.bebo.com/PhotoAlbumBig.jsp?MemberId=5379879459&PhotoId=6571003133&PhotoAlbumId=6561164788

    Fair enough the two ‘handguns’ are either BB’s or replicas (not that that excuses draping them round a glorified toddler) but I’d be my last pound that that’s a genuine side-by-side twelve bore lying open over the nipper’s shoulder – serious breach of firearms legislation ahoy? Anyone?

  • Bemused

    I’d ‘bet’ my last pound…obviously

  • jone

    Ah now c’mon who doesn’t have a shotty lying under the we’ans bed, just for security like.

  • fair_deal

    Bemused

    “Fair enough the two ‘handguns’ are either BB’s or replicas”

    They are BB guns, G10’s. Very good for breaking windows (especially double glazed windows that are usually impervious to BB guns) and why they are now banned for sale.

    You can buy deactivated shotguns legally here but agree looks like the genuine article.

  • Bemused

    Hat tip FD (your knowledge of out-lawed firearms is somewhat alarming;)). Think someone needs to forward this image to the relevant authorities….

  • Earnan

    Wow. Sites like myspace and bebo can really serve as a worldwide advertisement of one’s ignorance and stupidity.

    “YOUR A FU.CKING SCUMBAG DRUG DEALING PIECE OF SH.IT AND AN EMBARRASMENT TO THE REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT AND I HOPE YOU ENJOY WHATS COMMING TO YOU YA UGLY FU.CKER.THINK YOUR A HARD MAN DRIVING AN OLD MAN FROM HIS HOME THAT LIVED THERE EVEN BEFORE YOU WERE BORN?YOU WERE IN YOUR NAPPIES WHEN THE REAL WAR WAS ON YOU COWARDLY FU.CKER AND WE KNOW YOUR BROTHER WAS IN THE UDR YOU SCUM BASTARD,UP THE RA.”

  • dunreavynomore

    Paul Mcmahon
    “a subjective preposition”. O.K. Paul, you’ve got me there, I haven’t a clue what that is, my life is shattered and now I’m wondering if that means, from your point of view, that my opinion on anything is of no value, my education not reaching your glorious heights. Does that make me an idiot? Obviously you believe that there are a lot of people in Ireland who deserve no place in society and certainly have no right to decide for themselves on local issues ( at least not untill they stop being idiots). Again I know nothing about Dunclug or its residents but still believe that your descriptions of those people reflect poorly on your politics. There used to be a schoolboy phrase which seems to me to sum you up perfectly in that you appear to be “intoxicated by the exuberence of your own verbocity.” In other words your fine phrases about equality don’t mean much when you continue to treat some people as outside the pale. The old stuff about “cherishing ALL the children of the nation equally” doesn’t apply to these “thuggish idiots” Paul, heh?
    By the way, if it’s thuggish idiots you want then take a look at the thuggish idiots of the ira who murdered paul quinn, or robert McCartney. Now there’s a fine pair of gangs for you to get your teeth into!
    You’re 40 years of age Paul, hair maybe starting to turn grey and still no sign of the sense. Wow!

  • Gareth

    dunreavynomore

    ‘Obviously you believe that there are a lot of people in Ireland who deserve no place in society and certainly have no right to decide for themselves on local issues ( at least not untill they stop being idiots).’

    I think that people should be allowed to express themselves, and if Internment is to be commemorated then let it be commemorated. But as is quite often the case in life, the medium becomes the message and degrades what is to be commemorated. I do not think that a bonfire at which people are assaulted, property damaged, drugs taken, alcohol abused etc, is the best medium. It is a bad choice. I suggest a nice open-air candlelit mass instead.

  • name withheld for this one

    dunreavynomore,

    you keep saying that you don’t know Dunclug or the feelings of it’s people. Why don’t you take the opportunity and read the other thread on this topic, the feelings of the people of Dunclug can be fairly easily interpreted. I should say at this point that I know Dunclug and many of the people from there. I live in West Belfast but grew up in Ballymena.

    When I first heard this story my reaction was to think of how SF brook no dissent, I thought to myself much as you appear to have, ‘bonfire was fine when it was in Beechmount, but now the chucks have decided they’re peace people they decide no-one can have a bonfire.’

    But once you start paying attention to the people from the area, most of them do not want it, much like the vast majority of Unionist people do not particularly want a smoking rubbish tip outside their homes.

    Now up to this point there’s two messages, one side saying we’ve been under the heel (and many catholics from Ballymena will have at some point been on the receiving end of sectarianism, as will a good few prods), and we’ll have our bonfire, because it’s our right. Then the other side is saying it will be a drug and drink fuelled party with a sectarian undertone, and the strong possibility of violence.

    Well what do you know. No foresight required now. The parties over. It was a drug and drink fuelled party where at least one young girl got assaulted. You can defend it but no-one’s listening, the side that said this was just an excuse for some arseholes to get their party on were right, the arseholes proved it so.

    We don’t celebrate internment. It’s fuck all to celebrate, commemerate away if you like, but it ain’t no party. You’re not supposed to get off your tits and enjoy yourself, that ain’t what it’s about. Assaulting 16 year old girls won’t make your case any better for next year.

  • Steve

    Name witheld

    You miss the point entirely every thing bad is Sf’s fault everyt hing good is inspite of them and they don’t listen to the citizens they tell the citizens what to think.

    Its probably why they are the second biggest party in nIreland, because they dont listen and they intimidate annonymous voters

    The bastards I tell ya

  • bona fide

    Dunreavy, look, let’s just call a spade a spade here. I live in Dunclug and i can tell you categorically that the people responsible for the bonfire are little more than idiot scumbags. Are you saying that anyone who uses pejorative language to decribe fellow human beings is automatically a snob? You say you no little of Dunclug – come and pay us a visit and then see if you change your mind about these little darlings. I want to live in your little utopia – all that mutual respect and understanding. Must be wonderful. I thought respect should be earned? Don’t show it – don’t expect any in return. Like i said, scum.

  • rabelais

    dunreavynomore,
    I appreciate your concern with the present condition of sections of the working class and I think you were right to point out that some of the language used to describe the offenders in Dunclug is ideologically suspect (although its hard to be temperate when confronted with what is monstrous anti-social behaviour).

    There is probably more to this than just ‘young republicans’ breaking ranks with SF and from your concern with the sort of terminolgy applied to them I think you appreciate that. The behaviour of the ‘young republicans’ goes, I suspect, beyond the deliberately offensive to the abject. Groups who think that drinking around a bonfire is a political act; whose behaviour looses them the good opinion of the community and yet don’t care, are political dangerous. More than this they are a political liability to the working class.

    It is important to understand them; to recognise that in some respects they themsleves may be victims of social forces beyond them, but we don’t have condone them.

    Northern Ireland is going through a period of far-reaching political, economic and social changes. The so called peace process was facilitated by the political and intellectual exhaustion of republicanism/nationalism and unionism/loyalism, which had no answers for the new times they found themselves in – neo-globalisation, Europe (Anglo-Irish partnership), Celtic Tiger, break up of Britain, post-industrialism. To paraphrase Antonio Gramsci, the old ways are dying here and the new are yet born. This as Gramsci pointed out will be a period of ‘morbid sysmtons’. The ‘young republicans’ of Dunclug are such ‘morbid symptons’ – loyalism has its fair share of them to. What do we about it? It’s hard to say because we seem stuck with versions of Irish republicanism and Ulster unionism that seem utterly indifferent to the social forces shaping Northern Ireland, concerened more to reconstitute their old emnity for new times. Expect endless wrangling about language, culture, God’s Law and parades because lets be frank, many of our political representatives are a pretty lumpen bunch as well.

  • Bemused

    Rabelais – you’re wasting your time. Your post contained a number of words greater than three syllables in length – you are accordingly by dunreaveymore’s logic (a) a snob, (b) some sort of fascist.

  • rabelais

    Bemused.
    This is bad news indeed. Whether a snob, a fascist or both, I’d hate to be thought of as keeping any of that sort of company. Mrs Rabelais wouldn’t have me back in the house.

  • bona fide

    dunreavey

    someone else picked up on your point where you said, “Obviously you believe that there are a lot of people in Ireland who deserve no place in society and certainly have no right to decide for themselves on local issues ( at least not untill they stop being idiots).’

    This is really ironic given that the VAST majority of people on the estate didn’t want the bonfire and the VAST majority of people decided that there ought not to be one and worked hard to bring about an alternative i.e a week long community event for all to partake in and enjoy. I think that’s called local people ‘deciding for themselves on local issues”. And look what happened – the wan%ers you are defending so fervently (for some god-only-knows reason) made sure that the voice and will of the vast majority of the locals was stamped on, trashed, and set on fire, quite literally. And no community event. What about my rights and those of all the other residents on the estate? Why don’t you defend those, or do you really think it’s tolerable that a handful of idiot scumbags can dictate and impose their will on the whole estate regardless of the disastrous consequences? You can’t be serious.

  • Paul McMahon

    OK D, we’ll go through this step by step.

    “References to ‘idiots’ and so on beg the question as to whether there is an elitist element here”

    Subjective preposition refers to the above question, i.e. you have subjectively proposed the question, WHY does it beg the question about a so called elitist element, [particularly as I contextualised my idiots term in the three questions I asked at 8.26, all of which you have chosen to ignore].

    “If that means, from your point of view, that my opinion on anything is of no value, my education not reaching your glorious heights. Does that make me an idiot”?

    It doesn’t mean that, your opinion is as valid as mine, [providing you can back it up with logical argument], you don’t know the heights of my education, and not knowing what a subjective preposition is doesn’t make you an idiot.

    Clear enough D?

    “Obviously you believe that there are a lot of people in Ireland who deserve no place in society and certainly have no right to decide for themselves on local issues”

    Obviously eh? nice to see that you’ve taken my advice from a previous post about arrogantly and condescendingly imparting my “obvious” beliefs. I believe no such thing; I believe that a minority thuggish element in Dunclug wanted a bonfire against the wishes of the majority of residents.

    “Again I know nothing about Dunclug or its residents but still believe that your descriptions of those people reflect poorly on your politics. There used to be a schoolboy phrase which seems to me to sum you up perfectly in that you appear to be “intoxicated by the exuberance of your own verbosity.” In other words your fine phrases about equality don’t mean much when you continue to treat some people as outside the pale. The old stuff about “cherishing ALL the children of the nation equally” doesn’t apply to these “thuggish idiots” Paul, heh?

    Firstly D I didn’t describe the residents of Dunclug I described a small thuggish element as idiots, please explain how this reflects poorly on my politics? Regarding my supposed treatment of some people who, as you say, are “outside the pale”. In any society when people transgress beyond the norms of society can be considered to be “outside the pale”. Let me paraphrase my previous questions and maybe this time I’ll get an answer:

    Would you consider someone assaulting three people because they held different views from him as “beyond the pale”?

    Would you consider a crowd driving a respected community worker from his home as “beyond the pale”?

    Would you consider the spokesperson for the self styled Dunclug Young Republicans allegedly assaulting a sixteen year old girl and breaking her cheekbone as “beyond the pale”?

    On a similar note, do you think that criminals such as car thieves, burglars, drug pushers, rapists etc, [not suggesting that these people are involved in such activities just using an example], have the same rights as citizens that contribute positively to society?

    Does “the old stuff about cherishing ALL the children of the nation equally” also extend to touts RUC/PSNI, UDR/RIR, loyalists who were also born on the island of Ireland?

    “By the way, if it’s thuggish idiots you want then take a look at the thuggish idiots of the IRA who murdered Paul Quinn, or Robert McCartney. Now there’s a fine pair of gangs for you to get your teeth into”!

    Ahhh, the ubiquitous Dunreavynomore dig at the PRM, I was wondering where you’d get that in and I now suspect that you’re going to attempt to divert the thread from a bunch of thugs who terrorise a community because of a bonfire to a bunch of thugs who murdered two people.

    Look D, the people who murdered these two unfortunates, IRA volunteers or not, should be made to feel the full rigours of the law. Is that clear enough for you?

    “You’re 40 years of age Paul, hair maybe starting to turn grey and still no sign of the sense. Wow”

    Disappointing that you feel you’ve had to resort to personal abuse in the course of the discussion D however, your remark about me not having sense is at least a blatant example of the elitism that you speak of in comparison to your earlier more latent “maybe I should put the books down”

  • Gareth

    bona fide

    You are of course right. But because the will of the majority of the residents happens to match the will of Sinn Fein, then these characters see that as necessarily wrong. I say this with a little bit of irony, and I am not a SF fan, but even they can’t be wrong all the time.

    And in addition, I do see the inconsistency in SF being on for the bonfire one year and against it the next, but this is a good thing. It is a sign they are becoming responsible. Better late than never. If only the persons connected to the Eleventh Night bonfires could also do it, then I would be extra pleased. If even for the sake of the atmosphere.

  • bona fide

    Gareth, I’m not so sure. I think their main motivation is that they see the bonfire as a good excuse to have a drug/drink fuelled piss up with the prospect of being able to start a bit of a riot and terrorise as many people as they think they can get away with (and certainly feck all to do with commemorating internment). It’s just an added bonus that SF have come out against it as it obviously presents this bunch of neanderthals the opportunity to vent their grievances about SF that bit more.

    As for the will of the majority of residents – quite frankly, I think they just don’t give a $hite what it is, full stop, regardless if it happened to be the same as SFs will or not. In fact, there’s no, ‘I think’ about it – they clearly don’t. It’s just not something they even consider. And I mean, given that they are so anti-SF, are we really to believe that if SF had been in support of the bonfire then this crew wouldn’t have been so keen on the idea? I doubt it somehow.

    As the old bonfire isn’t exactly my thing, I’m not sure exactly about the details of SF’s involvement in the past – that’s not to say, there weren’t SF members present – but, in what capacity, is the key question. Anyway, you are right, wouldn’t it be very welcome if elected representatives from the P/U/L community took up a similar stance in their communities with regard to 11th night bonfires. Save us all a lot of grief, not to mention, money.

  • Gareth

    bona fide

    I should have made myself clearer. I really meant the majority of apologists on here. But your analysis is correct in any case.

  • bona fide

    G – i see…get you now. cheers.

  • jone

    Upstanding republican spokesman Chris Smiley appeared before the beak today accused of GBH on a 16 year old girl.

    http://www.ballymenatimes.com/news/Man-in-court-on-Dunclug.4382771.jp

  • pfhl

    d@ve,

    The news report, linked to above, stated…
    In 2006, Catholic teenager Michael McIlveen was beaten to death by loyalists in Ballymena. “On his anniversary three months ago, I was set upon by four carloads of loyalists as I walked home,” says O’Neill. “‘Get the Fenian bastard!’ they yelled. I was beaten with baseball bats and stabbed in the head.”

    Maggie, a middle-aged Dunclug resident, says: “Loyalist bands play the Sash near where Michael McIlveen was murdered, yet we’re not allowed a bonfire?”

    Has Michael McIlveens [Mickey-Bo] death had a continuing influence on the people of Dunclug/Dunvale/Fisherwick? Anyone from those areas?
    Posted by d@\/e on Aug 11, 2008 @ 12:53 PM

    It certainly has had a lasting impact on the mindset of many young people in the north of ballymena. From the previous thread concerning the bonfire im sure many will remember my opposition to it. I do know Paul O’Neill and remember the incident he is referring to. It was quite a nasty stab wound and happened very close to Michael’s anniversary. I don’t think it is only young nationalists that remember it though as his name was put on top of the 11th bonfire in Ahoghill last year. It certainly has had a lasting impact in Ballymena but I would think this is because ballymena was not caught in the troubles to the extent other areas are. I am 23 and all I mind of it was camerons and maybe wyse byse being bombed. Athough I know many were good friends of michael I imagine among some it is more of a rallying cry as to how discriminated against they feel.

    It really is a build up of smaller things but I know many nationalists would feel like second class citizens at this time of the year. These thoughts have been echoed by our most famous son in Liam Nesson. A reason for him not recieving the freedom of the borough. I have grown up accepting that unless I am at home, mass or in the pub it would be better to not make it too obvious that I am catholic. Even at school there were several attacks on fellow pupils for wearing their school uniform if they dared to walk up through the town later.

  • pfhl

    Qubol,

    Hi Peter
    As you mentioned in your last post about SF members from Kerry or whatever being previously involved I wouldn’t deny it. But as you seem to know the people we’re talking about here without naming names I think if we’re being honest these guys were complete morons who seemed to be doing there own thing in the estate. If anything the mistake was to not know what these party card waving idiots were up to. So I think it would be only fair to comment that since SF have rid themselves of these idiots, brought in some new faces, have more idea of what’s going on they are now moving against these thugs and their loyalist aping antics.

    I think you may be referring to my posts on a previous thread as I was arguing with you regarding this. I did not say the sinn fein man was from Kerry. He is a well known Ballymena man but was working with Martin Ferris TD. I also spotted him with colleagues in Sinn fein at the Hunger striker rally at casement park. I refuse to believe the leadership knew nothing of this man when he was escorting a supposed member of the army council about. I don’t think he is a shinner any more but the party knew exactly what he was doing back then. You can not absolve sinn fein of the blame for this current situation. They should not have started the bonfire to begin with.

  • pfhl,thanks for replying to me. I’ve a few more questions; If young catholic people in Ballymena feel like second class citizens what do you think they can do to change this? Do you see the local community representatives and politicians doing anything? Is there a danger of young catholic people in Ballymena resorting to violence, or joining dissident republican groups?

    I’ve even more questions about housing issues, drugs etc but’ll give them a miss this time.

  • Dave

    Hmmm… when did ‘the will of the majority’ begin to determine the rights of the minority? If a minority of residents want a bonfire, and it does no harm to other residents, then what legitimate basis do others have to interfere? Sweet feck all.

    Anyway, in a few more years, all these bonfires will be assessed by the EU for carbon emissions, and they’ll either be banned or require a licence wherein a fee is calculated in accordance with an appropriate carbon tax. When the average bonfire costs £600 to stage, they’ll soon vanish as a common practice.

  • bona fide

    Dave, you clearly don’t live in the estate otherwise you wouldn’t be spouting this $hite. Does no harm to the other residents indeed? OK, let’s see – what about the fear, intimidation, the violence, the vandalism, the feckin mess, jaysus, the list could go on and on and on….. The question should surely be, what legitimate basis does the minority have to hold the bloody bonfire. Ever heard of the word democracy?… look it up.

  • Dave

    “Ever heard of the word democracy?… look it up.”

    I don’t need to acquaint myself with its meaning. You, however, labour under the illusion that it means that it means that the majority instruct the minority when to fart and the proper manner to chew gum. It doesn’t. It means you vote for politicians when an election is called. It doesn’t mean that tell your neighbours how to live their lives because you form some committee for that very purpose when it is properly none of your bloody business what they do as long as they don’t break any laws. And even then it’s still none of your business beyond exercising your civic duty to report the alleged transgression to the relevant authority.

  • jone

    Dave,

    You’re sounding a bit like a [edited by moderator – play the ball]

    Just so you’re aware.

  • name withheld for this one

    [edited by moderator – play the ball] You’re definition of democracy is incorrect, and if you think lighting a bonfire is not against the law then you’re mistaken. Where was the fire lit? Did it damage public property, for example a green or an area of tarmac? From a google on the legality of bonfires it says this about lighting a bonfire on your own property:

    under the Environmental Protection Act (EPA) 1990, a statutory nuisance includes “smoke, fumes or gases emitted from premises so as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance”.

  • bona fide

    Dave, as has been said – [edited by moderator – play the ball]. You also hold a very narrow view of what democratic means. But, as you’re so keen to confine it to elected representatives in government – what do you call a SF MLA supporting the wishes of the majority of the people in the estate who expressed their wish not to have a bonfire through the members of the residents committee and elected chairperson? I’ve no doubt you have no care for SF but the fact is, as you are only too aware, that they have been elected by a large proportion of people here to be represented by them. And I consider that that is exactly what happened on this occasion. I don’t recall any elected representatives calling, on behalf of a few w4nkers, for the bonfire to go ahead.

  • pfhl

    pfhl,thanks for replying to me. I’ve a few more questions; If young catholic people in Ballymena feel like second class citizens what do you think they can do to change this? Do you see the local community representatives and politicians doing anything? Is there a danger of young catholic people in Ballymena resorting to violence, or joining dissident republican groups?

    I’ve even more questions about housing issues, drugs etc but’ll give them a miss this time.
    Posted by d@\/e on Aug 13, 2008 @ 09:20 PM

    I would say it is a very real possibility that they will join dissident groups but i suspect MI5 is behind some of those attracting people. Around the group of friends that arranged this bonfire there has been too many cases droped against them. I realise this makes me sound paranoid but there have been a few instances that cases have been dropped suddenly and I suspect agents involved.

  • earnan

    Was anyone ever prosecuted for the murder of Michael McIlveen?

  • JBr

    Look as a Ballymena man i tell yous all whats going on here as a Republican that does not agree with the leadership but who also dosnt support the likes of smiley (whom i wouldnt trust with my life).Afew years ago mc shane was voted onto the Dunclug ass. and has been doing well for everyone,standing up for us against loyalist parades and what not and that was before he became a sinn fein rep for his home town in Ballycastle,when he was elected to Ballycastle he came to our meeting and said if we wanted to replace him it be no problem and everyone voted for him to stay on,dont forget he travels twenty five mile to get here and home again for no charge at all,he also along with sinn fein was on for the bonfire as was the resisdents and they told the ruc/psni to stay out of the area the night of for the sake of peace and smiley and his gang of misfits burnt a sinn fein womans car from dunloy and attacked local houses of people that were anti drug and that is the reason this year that the majority of the people decided they didnt want it.I know smiley as well and before he came here from Cloughmills he run around with a rangers top because his brother was in the udr then he moves here and cliams to speak for true republicans and to “CELEBRATE” internment then breaks a wee girl of sixteens jaw and then when he gets locked up i was glad to hear the Tyrone men gave him a hammering,maybe knock a bit of sensce into him.
    anyway i not the greatest speller but im telling yous all that is the way it is.

  • pfhl the MI5 thing wouldn’t surprise me.

    earnan A 15-year-old teenager was charged with his murder, while a 16-year-old teenager was charged with causing affray. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4774703.stm