A deal on how?

The DUP and SF have agreed there should be a single police and justice ministry with the minister elected by cross-community vote but neither the DUP or SF will nominate. The timing has not been agreed. David Ford has given an “emphatic no” to Alliance playing any role. UPDATE Anyone know whether or not his means Executive meetings will start again?

  • Traditional_Unionist

    So its a case of the DUP/SF alliance agreeing to it, but not wanting to take the responsiblity. and it is also a case of the DUP trying to save face by transfering the powers, trying to make it look like SF/IRA will not have a say in the matter because they will not get the ministery.

    simple fact is though both parties will have equal power of policing and justice, and the DUP must think people are stupid if they think we dont know this

    Make no mistake this is the end for the DUP

  • percy

    fair-deal
    I’m not sure “emphatic no” is correct:

    Mr Ford said: “They (the DUP and Sinn Fein) really ought to consult with us before they spin about us,”

    “I think there is this idea that they can rely on us to ride to the rescue, well they can’t expect that when they haven`t spoken to us (on the issue) for the last 16 months,” he added.

    What is clear is the pressure is on, negative headlines are embarrasing for SF and DUP.

    Perhaps we’ll have a timetable in/by the Autumn! We all are familiar with process in Norn Iron, there are a number of devices used to settle these matters:

    Creative ambiguity, sunset clauses, flexible approaches to fixed positions.
    The last being my favourite 😉

  • Policing and Justice now

    I see there is also a post on this at The Belfast Stoop as well.

    http://www.thebelfaststoop.com/2008/08/wheres-justice-going.html

  • IJP

    Percy

    … except that on BBC Newsline David Ford said, and I quote: “This is an emphatic no”.

    Which probably means it’s an emphatic no.

  • Pete Baker

    IJP

    Indeed.

    And there’s the statement issued by David Ford noted in the post below.

  • DC

    SDLP it is then.

  • Conquistador

    So how does this “cross community” vote work?

    If the UUP nominated and was supported by the DUP whilst the SDLP nominated and was supported by SF surely there’d be stalemate?

    Unless somebody redesignates to save us all again…

  • Traditional_Unionist

    If the SDLP and UUP nominate one of their MLA’s for the position will it not go to an assembly vote then to decide?

    meaning the UUP would most likely win a majority vote…

  • Traditional_Unionist

    Conquistador,

    you go in there before me with the question

    I am assuming if both the UUP and SDLP nominate then there would be an assembly vote?

  • Conquistador

    Stormont doesn’t go in for such democratic nonsense like majority votes.

    I think cross community votes need the support of 50% of designated thems and 50% designated usses,
    this works for joint things like OFMDFM but for the sole justice minister I see problems.

    Of course they could have a deputy/junior justice minister for the side that doesn’t get the real thing, or just give it to Brian Wilson.

  • percy

    Is there a mission that the UUP will want the post?
    Unlikely, as they’ve their eyes on bigger things to come with the Tories.
    Expect a similiar statement from the UUP as from the Alliance.
    SDLP then DC, which SF don’t really want to see, but as the DUP have moved, I’d suggest they should play ball.

  • Conquistador

    They took the poisoned chalice of health and the meaningless DEL so I suspect there’s someone there who fancies trying their arm at power/a ministerial salary.

    “SDLP then DC”

    What does your DC stand for?

    Anyhow, who would the SDLP stick up for the post I suppose is the next idle seculation?

  • Concquistador – isn’t it 50% overall AND 40% of both communities?

  • It’s not necessarily the same but (according to Wikipedia):

    any vote taken by the Assembly can be made dependent on cross-community support if a “Petition of Concern” is presented to the Speaker. A Petition of Concern may be brought by at least 30 of the 108 MLAs under Section 42(2) of the Northern Ireland 1998 where there are concerns about proposed legislation. In such cases, a vote on proposed legislation will only pass if supported by a weighted majority (60%) of members voting, including at least 40% of each of the Nationalist and Unionist designations present and voting. Effectively this means that, provided enough MLAs from a given community agree, that community can exercise a veto over the Assembly’s decisions.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Well, well, well looks like Robbo jumping after he was pushed by Grizzly and El Gordo – but he is a realist and appear to be making the correct if (very difficult for him) decision and should be praised for doing so.

    The Alliance’s stance on this is shocking – I heard David Ford jabbering about having to bale out DUP and SF in other departmental areas as well as if this was just another minor policy difference which was a result of squabbling between them. For Unionists and Nationalists this goes to the heart of those issues that have didvided the two communities and for the Alliance to take this stance really undemines their credibilty to be a party that is designed to bring the communities together. As Willows like to say in his posts ‘shame’.

    ps Where is Pete Baker when he’s needed to tell us how SF got this so badly wrong only to be rescued by DUP goodwill?

  • Conquistador

    Ahh 60:40 then,

    still, if one sort swings behind 1 potential minister and the other sort swings behind another problems could be on the horizon.

    Don’t see anything of interest on the Unionist parties’ websites

  • slug

    Sammy is it just part of your make-up that you have to interpret things as DUP losses? I can not see a DUP loss in this announcement as the DUP were the party that was in favour of the model for this ministry that has just been announced today.

  • Rooster Cogburn

    Um, Sammy, how long have you lived on our planet, and are you perhaps finding the atmosphere a tad too heady? “Where is Pete Baker when he’s needed to tell us how SF got this so badly wrong only to be rescued by DUP goodwill” – I don’t know where Pete is, but you evidently don’t know where Sinn Fein are or were. What have they been droning on and on and on about, so much so that even friendly off-world aliens like yourself really should have picked it up by now? Surely the signals must have reached your home planet before you set off for Dungiven, 8th bazilliontrillion wonder of the Galaxy, or wherever it is that you landed? Sinn Fein said time after time after time that they wouldn’t suffer a ‘Unionist veto’ [sic] on a Shinner being policing n’ justice minister. They’ve just suffered such a veto: there explictly *isn’t* going to be a SF policing n’ justice minister. And having turned turtle with near Trimblesque gracelessness, u-turning as they did from all their ludicrous, puffed-out posturing up to this point, hey presto, agreement has been reached. Who’d have guessed? If Sinn Fein stop saying, ‘do it our way or it doesn’t get done’, it gets done. Just not the way SF wanted. Which is the kind of thing that’s just going to keep on happening to a royally kippered partionist party. Thank God, for their sake, that their voters, activists and Slugger infestors are much too conveniently thick to realise this, no matter how many times SF are turned over.

  • Rebel Yell

    ha ha ha…..

    Those Shinner wankers got even less out of the Stormont Agreement than we even thought.

    So no justice minister lol, another SF defeat which no doubt they’ll try and dress as a victory.

    Fuck me just how dense are their supporters that can’t see they turn every thing they touch to shite.

  • Dewi

    Rooster – according to Jonathan Powell SF agreed for there not to be an SF P&J;Minster yonks ago -before signing the Agreement. I’ll dig out reference tonight.

  • Mr E Mann

    Perhaps Ford really doesn’t want the pressure on Alliance’s credibility that would come with the inevitable accusations of bias against whoever has P and J. Perhaps he is just running up the price before he agrees, like IP saying DUP would share power with SF over his dead body. The only other solution is to alternate the moderate parties in P&J;annually.

  • x

    lets see who is desparate for power and who’s not.

    Alliance have always appeared to be the loyal opposition but simply by default, now they have a choice.

    the SDLP? well always looking for a chance to out green the shinners and this would be the ideal opportunity. Supported by the DUPs

    THe UUP? not interested the DUPs haven’t the balls for the job so the UUP will leave then to vote for SF light – the SDLP and then criticise the DUPs for every daft green decision of Alex A.

    Overall p&j;will be devloved, DUP nil SF 1.

    Next? irish landguage foloowed by the Long kesh – well down peter!

  • IJP

    It’s pretty obvious, really.

    The Executive has delivered precisely nothing.

    If they cannot deliver a Justice Minister from among their own number, why should they be trusted with education and the 11+? Or the environment and the crisis in planning? Or culture and the Maze re-development?

    Either the Executive is up to the job of governing NI, or it isn’t.

  • Traditional_Unionist

    Isnt it amazing how the DUP dont seem to care anymore about the IRA “army” council still being in existance?

    some may say that it has little power etc, but its existance will still be a sticking point for unionists, and the DUP showing they care very little about getting rid of it once and for all could prove costly.

    Questions will be asked about what exactly the DUP have achieved from stormont. Very little if we are honest. Instead we just see a continuation of SF/IRA furthering their agenda.

    The DUP will find itself in big trouble at the next election. They for years called the UUP weak and swore if they were in power they would “smash” SF/IRA and give them nothing.

    Hasnt quite worked out like that. infact one could say they have done quite abit worse than the UUP did.

  • fair_deal

    TU

    “Isnt it amazing how the DUP dont seem to care anymore about the IRA “army” council still being in existance?”

    Devolution hasn’t been agreed to and the confidence test remains.

    Plus the 07 manifesto commitment has been held to.
    “• can ensure there will be no Sinn Fein
    Policing and Justice Minister”

    So if the AC goes and Policing and Justice goes to a non-Sf minister, is that your concerns addressed?

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    slug,

    “Sammy is it just part of your make-up that you have to interpret things as DUP losses”

    I did not mention DUP as losers in this – only that they were under intense pressure to do this deal. The DUP will gain from this after the inevitable complaints of TUVers and party dissidents have gone away. Its not a victory for SF but the sensible and (hopefully) inevitable conclusion of the peace process. As mentioned above Robbo should be praised for taking the correct path – though in my opinion he would never have taken it without being pressurised as he well knows that this will be deeply unpopular with a large/sizeable/significant section of Unionism. El Gordo and Grizzly need also to be praised for nudging Robbo along.

    Rooster Cogburn

    calm down, calm down. This is a key republican demand – that Police and Justice should be in Irish rather than in British government hands and according to Pete Baker something that SF fecked up through poor negotiation – by Pete’s logic the DUP would seem to have baled SF out. As for your inter-galactic rant ? you sound harmless enough even if a bit of a space-cadet.

  • cynic

    Before we get into counting:-

    * there’s no agreement on timing ie no agreement at all beyond a vague intent

    * no-one else has agreed to do it

    * who on earth do we think has the CAPACITY to do it in these circumstances.

    Is a compromise deadbeat choice in post worth the effort in such a vital area?

  • cynic

    Oh yes …………………………and why has this been released now? What is going on behind the scenes?

    Things like this don’t happen by accident. There is usually a wider agenda

  • Pete Baker

    Sammy

    If you paid any attention to what was actually being said, you have noticed that before you asked the question in the comments here, “ps Where is Pete Baker..”

    I’d already pointed out here that I had responded to today’s apparent progress.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Sammy:

    As mentioned above Robbo should be praised for taking the correct path – though in my opinion he would never have taken it without being pressurised as he well knows that this will be deeply unpopular with a large/sizeable/significant section of Unionism. El Gordo and Grizzly need also to be praised for nudging Robbo along.

    Your weird fantasy shit doesn’t seem to have stopped. What path has Robbo taken that he did not already agree to take ? The DUP said months and months ago that they wanted to see devolution of policing and justice powers. What nudging did Gordon do ? What leverage did he use ?

    Nobody has seen any actual proposals yet. The DUP have put out a statement saying that they have changed precisely nothing. Looks like they played their cards right and allowed Sinn Fein to go public.

    All I can see here is that Grizzly did a u-turn. Several weeks ago, Sinn Fein ruled out the idea of an Alliance justice minister. Now they have backed down and changed their minds. Being the complete strategic failures that they are, they did not stop to check with Alliance before going public. So now Sinn Fein have made a u-turn and the associated loss of face, and have gained nothing from it. What an absolute disaster of a political party.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Pete,

    your post was a few minutes before another on the same topic – hardly suprising someone might miss it.

    CS

    Robbo was summoned to Downing St at SF request ( which he said he didnt want or need to go) and afterwards made a speech indicating he would be moving on Police and Justice. That would be a fairly strong indication of leverage for those open minded enough to see it.

  • Pete Baker

    Sammy

    Not for the first time, you fail to pay attention to what is actually being said.

    Once again then, before you asked “ps Where is Pete Baker..”

    I had already commented here, on fair deal’s post.. an hour before you asked where I was.

  • Dewi

    Pete – stop whining _ this is good stuff no ? Like a chance to run P&J;yourself ? What’s the big wow?

  • Pete Baker

    Dewi

    Do me the favour of understanding that, since I live here, I have a particular concern when there’s another attempt to sell us yet another pig in a poke.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Pete,

    “you fail to pay attention to what is actually being said”

    Well Pete I re-direct that pedantic charge towards your good self

    My actual point was

    “Where is Pete Baker when he’s needed to tell us how SF got this so badly wrong only to be rescued by DUP goodwill”

    Your point earlier in the post had (suprisingly) left out any of the usual strained explantion that SF had got it wrong in the STA negotiation – I was pondering on when we might get some more of the same.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Dewi,

    I think – reading between the lines – Pete means feck off back to Wales.

    I’m off to me leaba – Nos Da.

    p.s. Were you at the opening night of the Eisteddfod – it was excellent – wondering if I could get it on DVD?

  • Pete Baker

    Still not able to acknowledge that you failed to read what had actually been said, Sammy?

    Fair enough.

    But I don’t do requests.

    Here, again, is my initial response to the announcement.

    I’ve done subsequent posts on it too. But I’m sure you’ve read them..

  • Dewi

    Been to Steddfod today – raining as always…but met piles of people…..

  • Comrade Stalin

    Robbo was summoned to Downing St at SF request ( which he said he didnt want or need to go) and afterwards made a speech indicating he would be moving on Police and Justice. That would be a fairly strong indication of leverage for those open minded enough to see it.

    Sammy,

    I would gladly stand corrected on this, but I have no recollection of any such statement from Robinson. Can you please point me to an article quoting Robinson saying that :

    – he did not want to go to Downing St

    – that he changed his position on devolution of policing and justice.

    I suggest you try to comprehend the facts of the matter, which are that Brown is in no position to pressurize the DUP into doing anything. What leverage does Brown have ?

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    CS,

    I have not got the time to dig out the statements – will have a look this evening – but I remember the statements at the time.

    The leverage that Brown has, is that in the event of a collapse (as per Grizzly’s threats), he ( El Gordo), will collaborate further with the papists in ROI – the Rev Ian has admitted that the reason he signed up to STA was because of this and (again from memory) Robbo says something similar in and around the time he became first minister.