..role to play in the struggle against SatNavs

Sinn Fein MLA Barry McElduff has called on nationalists to erase partition by campaigning on issues like SatNavs and UCAS forms. He was speaking at an event in memory of convicted IRA bomber and hunger striker Martin Hurson. The parade followed a GAA football competition at Galbally GAC for the Martin Hurson cup.

  • Its all beginning to make sense now, (Cllr McElduff also said that there are many ways to “erase partition” referring to SatNavs and UCAS forms). So! Is this what it was all about? SatNav’s.

  • Garibaldy

    So if Connolly were about today, I can hear him warning about not just painting the UCAS forms green.

  • picador

    As you have described the late Martin Hurson as a convicted bomber I feel bound to point out that he was convicted by a Diplock court on the basis of an uncorroborated confession extracted under torture.

  • Jimmy

    Maybe MLA Mc,Ilduff should lead by example and refuse to administer English Rule from Stormont!!
    Its not that they show any reluctance to it, they are totally enthusiastic for it.(give a man a little power eh)
    I hope he (McIlduff) would be fully supportive of the same people he spouts his false rhetoric too if they refused to pay the Illegal water charges ‘his’ party has helped to introduce.
    Then again if Republicans continue to allow PSF to continually have thier proverbial ‘eye wiped’ by them, they have only themselves to blame.
    I for one ex-Republican supporter will never give PSF the benefit of the doubt ever again, or my vote.

  • An tÚdar

    Why should we be surprised every time a Sinn Féiner comes out with these types of ridiculous comments.

    We all know that SF and the provisional movement have been, are and will be an umbrella group for all walks of political people with little or no ideological back-bone.

    References to Connolly from them are to keep the left happy. This party is so full of contradictions in everything it does. For example, In the South they complain about the Celtic Tiger yet in the North they speak of bringing the Celtic Tiger northbound, their position on Anti-Social Behavior Orders as passed at Ard Fheis 2001 (i think) was a left wing position speaking of poverty, exclusion and working class deprivation being the cause yet throughout Belfast, they are encouraging local people to order ASBO’s against the weakest and most vulnerable in their commuities.

    To cut it short, they don’t know what they’re about. They are made of all sorts, they want to make Stormont work yet they want a United Ireland. They speak of Connolly, yet half of the schools refunded for new buildings by Martin McGuinness in his time as Education Minister are PFI owned, hence the communities not being allowed to access these resources on their doorsteps.

    The sooner they completely fade into the status quo, the better. So if painting post boxes green and campaiging to TomTom makes McIlduff and the rest of the Shinners feel good about themselves then good luck to them. But in the back of their minds, not only do they know that they are failing but there are many many patriots lying in Graveyards throughout Ireland who with prior notice would not have died for this. (Mr Adams I don’t need a Ouija Board to tell me either)

  • Traditional_Unionist

    so here we have yet another SF MLA attending an event in memory of a convicted terrorist.

    This shows yet again how unfit for government SF still are

    you cannot support the rule of law one minute and then support terror the next

  • RG Cuan

    you cannot support the rule of law one minute and then support terror the next

    Boring, worn-out argument. The same could be said for many in the DUP, the First Minister included.

    Let’s move on.

  • ggn

    I would have thought that an all-Ireland mobile phone network would be an absolute priority – on the basis of choice of course.

    I dont think I have ever rang anyone inb Britan but the bills go through the roof as half the people you know have Southern mobs or have strayed across the border.

    Obviously many unionists would have no interest in such a thing but I see no reason why anyone would have any objection as to people having the choice.

    To many the mobile phone issue may not have been what Uachtaran Mac Piarais had in mind but for us border and all-Ireland living types itt is a real practicle issue.

    Ar aghaidh leat anois a Bharra, Foin poca uil-Eireann anois!!

  • Traditional_Unionist

    RG Cuan

    should it not be SF/IRA you are aiming your “move on” comment at?

  • It would appear that Mr McElduff has also been encouraging the painting of post boxes as well.. Green that is.

    http://ograshinnfein.blogspot.com/2008/07/martin-hurson-and-tyrone-volunteers.html

  • Garibaldy

    Yeah they did it on the Falls too. No sense of irony some people.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘you cannot support the rule of law one minute and then support terror the next’

    So no doubt you will refuse to attend any British army events the next time your little ironic head gets invited.

  • Traditional_Unionist

    RepublicanStones

    You show yourself up with that kind of comment

    but if it makes you feel better. what the hell eh?

  • interested

    As distasteful as it is to have politicians celebrating the life of a terrorist we really need to take a step back and ask is this what Marton Hurson starved himself for?

    Was it really about campaigning to have TomToms tell you that you’re in Ireland when you’re really in the United Kingdom. Was it all about UCAS forms?

    If Barry McElduff wants to have a lepracuan shouting at him in Irish from his SatNav rather than a rather suave but irritating woman who I have then let him have it…..If it keeps the wee fella happy then sure we could indulge him that. He hasn’t got and isn’t getting his 32 County Socialist Republic and he hasn’t got and isn’t getting the “Brits out” – far from it, Gerry keeps telling us that he wants them back in. So maybe we should encourage all those proud republicans to overthrow the imperialist voices telling them which roads to drive down and let them read maps badly… or ask directions (which as a man I stoutly refuse to do!)

    I’m sure as Barry expounded how the system can be undermined by satellite navigation the boul Martin Hurson looked up (yes up) and smiled…. or maybe that’s more of a grimace….

  • cynic

    “As you have described the late Martin Hurson as a convicted bomber I feel bound to point out that he was convicted by a Diplock court on the basis of an uncorroborated confession extracted under torture.”

    …and I feel bound to point out if he wasnt a terrorist why have they erected a statute to him in PIRA unfiorm and carrying a rifle and describing him as a Volunteer?

    Anyway, I will bet his family are proud that he died for that we might have a United Ireland Sat Nav

  • RepublicanStones

    Nicely avoided TU. I think its your mindset which is more evident with your tribal hypocrisy.

  • Jimmy Sands

    So whinging about satnavs just as valid a contribution to the struggle as slowly starving yourself to death? Probably true but hardly the time and place to say it.

  • elvis Parker

    Of course only an idiot would do what Ildugf suggests. When people fill in UCAS form they want to avail of the best options

    BTW I’m sure we will get All Ireland mobile packages – when the Republic is lumped in with the entire UK

  • Concerned Loyalist

    He was speaking at an event in memory of convicted IRA bomber and hunger striker Martin Hurson. The parade followed a GAA football competition at Galbally GAC for the Martin Hurson cup………………………………………..

    And the GAA and it’s republican terrorist apologist supporters, still maintain that the organisation is non-sectarian…utter bullshit!

  • Elvis Fan

    “when the Republic is lumped in with the entire UK”

    Prediction or ambition?

    What are your tactics to achieve this given that not one single elected rep in the state advocates such an even.

    Lets hope you arent advocating a bit of rough stuff?

    Given the fact that the UK does not have the loyality of 40%+ of the people of Northern Ireland I doubt if many in Britan would like to add a further 3.5 million nationalists to burden.

  • Assuming one has taken up one’s Irish citizenship can one not already state their nationality as Irish on a UCAS form?

  • EP is right btw. Vodafone, O2 and Three already operate in the Republic. Aside from Meteor I don’t think there is a single operator who doesn’t operate in the UK too. Why not just create a single (mobile?) phone market for the British Isles?

  • Traditional_Unionist

    Concerned Loyalist

    of course you are 100% correct

    but it seems it doesnt matter that the GAA is a blatently sectarian organisation and in many cases it shows its support for terror by naming stadiums etc after terrorists.

    Imagine however if an Irish league football side called its stadium after Billy Wright.

    We heard alot about Neil Lennon the time he was “forced out” of international football due to loyalist thugs. Infact we are till hearing it these days and how bad it was.

    That was sectarian but its seems what the GAA does somehow is different and not sectarian and supportive of terrorists.

    ah but then its culture in the GAA nothing sectarian about it, but if it happens in irish league football like in the example I gave its “those sectarian bigotted bastards”

    *rollseyes*

  • culligan

    there’s a lot of bullshit spoken by nationalist politicians on mobile phones, and on the systems the phones work on. McElduff follows Dermot Ahern in this regard.

    1. The infrastructures N&S;of the border are completely different wrt base stations, transmission links and switches.

    2. They are operated by separate companies (albeit with some common parentage) and are under the control of different regultory and legal systems. And operate in different markets.

    3. There is spillover in border areas as there is across the world with similar RF technology.

    4. Occasionally a southern company will come out with a niche, temporary, all-Ireland package to much cheering from the dopey Dermot but it changes none of the above.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Anyway, I will bet his family are proud that he died for that we might have a United Ireland Sat Nav

    Posted by cynic on Jul 18, 2008 @ 01:50 PM…………………………………………

    That’s the sad thing. Hurson may have been misguided and delusional, but he died for his principles. When McGuiness and Adams had a chance to show their bravery by protecting their fellow republicans at Millstone Cemetery, they, for a better word, “shat” themselves and hid from Michael Stone behind the gravestones. After all, the East Belfast UFF volunteer didn’t come for Brady, Murray and McErlean, he came for the Provo leadership; the likes of Adams, McGuinness and the Head of PR, Danny Morrison. When put into context there is a case to be made that the cowardice of the Provie leadership led to the deaths of 3 republicans who showed they had “a set of balls”…

  • Culligan I’m intrigued by your first point.

    I’m sure 2 can be overcome easily enough by a spate of reorganisations (or I suppose it would technically be mergers?).

    Are you saying the actual hardware is completely different and/or incompatible somehow?

  • An tUdar

    The GAA was formed as an anti-colonial organisation during the cultural revival. Amongst others, the GAA was set up to counteract cultural colonialism, the same colonial mindset that is taking over the world right now.

    The revolutionaries who had the forsight and the ideological capacity to set them up were much of the same people who took part in the military decolonialisation of Ireland. And funny enough lots of them were presbytarian (Wolfe Tone – Bellaghy Wolfe Tones, McCrackens GAC, Belfast named after Henry Joy McCracken). And of course, many of the recent patriots who had clubs named after them were part of the same anti-colonialn and revolutionary organisations who espoused the same ideology as those involved in the original Gaelic revival in the late 19th century. Now whether you like it or not, it is cultural and historical.

    What is more interesting is that the likes of Tone and McCracken, being Presbyterian aimed to unite Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter to make a better and fairer system for everyone. You will of course know that the British used sectarianism to split the working people of Belfast and the rest of Ireland so that we would not be united. Unfortunately, that policy still seems to be working with yourself ‘Traditional Unionist’. There is nothing in any rule book of the GAA that excludes anyone from any religious background from playing GAA sports.

    My club trains on Monday, Tueday’s and Thursdays and play matches on Sunday’s. You and your family are very welcome if you would like to join us.

  • Mike

    Oh dear oh dear. Embarrassing stuff from Radar, sorry, Barry.
    ————————-
    WEST Tyrone MLA Barry McElduff said ordinary people can help to “erase partition” by insisting on the right to enter their nationality as Irish and their place of residence as Ireland on official and company forms
    ————————

    People with Irish citizenship already have the ‘right’ to enter their nationality as Irish.

    And as for entering their place of residence as Ireland – sorry, that won’t wash until Barry and pals successfully campaign to have the ’26 county state’ which is described as the Republic of Ireland to stop using Ireland as its official name. Until then, ‘Ireland’ in official terms is Ireland the state, and Belfast, Tyrone, Derry/Londonderry etc sure are hell ain’t in that Ireland.
    —————————
    “We should not have to enter our nationality as British
    —————————

    Where, pray tell dear Barry, are you made to do that?

    ————————
    and we should lobby and tell these companies that, when referring to the fictional state of Northern Ireland,
    ————————

    They might point out the uncomfortable fact that you are a member of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and that your party helps govern Northern Ireland with ministerial posts on the Northern Ireland Executive.

    They might also point out that you claim to support an Agreement that recognised the state of Northern Ireland, and the right of its people to decide its constitutional future.

    —————
    the occupants are Irish.
    —————

    Oh dear again, Barry. So you’re not just asking for respect for northern nationalists identification as Irish. No, you’re saying that “the occupants” of Northern Ireland (the ‘fictional state’ apparently…makes it sound like it borders on Narnia) are Irish. And that’s it. No other identity. Certainly no truck with the majority who identify as British.

    This despite signing up to the Belfast Agreement which recognises everyone’s right to identify as British or Irish or both.

    ——————
    “Tactics like these alone won’t end the occupation here
    ——————

    What occupation would this be, Radar old son?

    Let me point you once again in the direction of the Agreement:

    “The participants endorse the commitment made by the British and Irish Governments that…they will:(i) recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status, whether they prefer to continue to support the Union with Great Britain or a sovereign united Ireland”

    “the present wish of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, freely exercised and legitimate, is to maintain the Union and, accordingly, that Northern Ireland’s status as part of the United Kingdom reflects and relies upon that wish; and that it would be wrong to make any change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of a majority of its people”

    “[draft clause for British legislation]It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland in its entirety remains part of the United Kingdom and shall not cease to be so without the consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting in a poll held for the purposes of this section in accordance with Schedule 1.”

    Hilarious, really.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Well said, Mike. The Sinners harp on about an “Ireland of Equals” and “self-determination”, yet McElduff rides roughshod over this in his speech/rant, ignoring the British identity and nationality of the majority of the Ulster people. In the words of Homer Simpson: “DOH!”

  • Garibaldy

    “The revolutionaries who had the forsight and the ideological capacity to set them up were much of the same people who took part in the military decolonialisation of Ireland. And funny enough lots of them were presbytarian (Wolfe Tone – Bellaghy Wolfe Tones, McCrackens GAC, Belfast named after Henry Joy McCracken). And of course, many of the recent patriots who had clubs named after them were part of the same anti-colonialn and revolutionary organisations who espoused the same ideology as those involved in the original Gaelic revival in the late 19th century. Now whether you like it or not, it is cultural and historical.”

    I have to confess I’m confused by this. Passing over the fact, that the creation of the free state hardly constituted the military decolonisation of Ireland, are you suggesting that Tone etc were involved in the GAA, or that the clubs were named after Presbyterians (though Tone of course was Church of Ireland)?

  • An tUdar

    Garibaldy,

    If your point is that efforts of the military decolonialisation of Ireland have so far not been successful, they were not in the 1798, 1803, 1916, 1921 or indeed in 1969-1998 then i must admit that i have to agree.

    The IRB certainly did not want the fruit of their labour to be the freestate that was after the civil war and indeed now, in the same way that those same contemporary revolutionaries did not die for what we now have as the hegomanic-SF’s settlement to decolonialism.

    And yes, clubs have named themselves after Irish people like Tone and McCracken because, regardless of religion, they were seen to be hero’s and champions of the people. Although the GAA was not set up until just less than a century after Tone’s death, the similarity is in the politics espoused by both Tone et all and the IRB (who were largely responsible for the GAA, Conradh na Gaeilge etc.)

  • Garibaldy

    Cheers An tUdar. I think in fairness we should recongise that the reason the GAA in particular was and remains so successful is precisely because its appeal extends right across the political spectrum, at least in the south.

    As for whether people like Hurson were revolutionaries or part of a sectarian reactionary nationalism that has its mirror image in unionism, I suspect we’ll have to agree to differ.

  • RG Cuan

    Don’t know what the UCAS reference is about, if I remember correctly I filled in Irish on mine.

    ignoring the British identity and nationality of the majority of the Ulster people

    I’d guess the majority of people in Tyrone, Armagh, Derry, Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan would say they’re Irish.

    Fermanagh and Down might be a bit closer with Antrim clearly having more people with British identity.

    A new border anyone? 😉

  • An tUdar

    Anyway, Barry McIlduff is typical of the SF commemoration tactics. Let’s keep everyone emotionally involved enough so that we can lessen the impact of our selling out. Let’s show that we care immensely about our patriot dead but that we’re completely failing and that our tactics since signing the mitchel princibles have led us to be part of the Status Quo. Stop kidding hte kidders!!

    “If you remove the English Army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts will be in vain. England will still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs”. – James Connolly, from Socialism and Nationalism in Shan Van Vocht, January 1897

    In other words, if you get cross border Peeler cooperation and all of the post boxes in the North painted green, you have missed the point and worse still committed treason to those who died for the Green Book which states the commitment to the Socialist Republic.

  • Garibaldy

    You may have filled yours in in Irish RG, but you were counted automatically as British for their purposes. Even UK would be more neutral, but maybe the genius that is Barry McIlduff can change all that.

  • An tUdar

    Garibaldy,

    No doubt many of those recruited to the Provisional movement post events were reactionary. This doens’t necessarily mean that they were wrong to get involved. Many revolutionary organisations are made up in that way. Anger fuels desire. Many of the reactionary were politicised in many different ways, through programmes, debate and discussion and self taught.

    No doubt that some may have personally been secarian, however i think that the vast majority were not. Those who were involved in the recent war of independance were involved to remove the occupation (did you know that there’s still more troops here than there is in Iraq?). Most would not have been at war for sectarian reasons. The war was centred on the British, this is not to exclude some of the atrocities and individual actions that were sectarian. However, it is my opinion that 99% of members in armed struggle were for the decolonialisation of the country, were non-sectarian, were at war with the British and their infrastructure in Ireland.

    To put the point to bed, I disagree that they were sectarian reactionaries. However, i do recognise that there were some awful atrocities carried out. Touchy one i know but that’s what the forum is for.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    RG Cuan,
    I’d guess the majority of people in Tyrone, Armagh, Derry, Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan would say they’re Irish…………………………..

    Firstly, the county you refer to as “Derry” has never existed. It was established in 1613 as County Londonderry, it’s name to this day, so please refer to it by it’s correct title.

    Secondly, Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan are part of the ancient 9-counties of Ulster, a province which became defunct after partition in 1921. Ulster now incorporates the 6 counties of FATLAD; Fermanagh, Armagh, Tyrone, Londonderry, Antrim and Down. Out of those 6 counties I would agree that more than 50% of Armagh and Tyrone would view themselves as Irish, but the other 4 counties would have a majority who identify themselves as British.

  • ggn

    I put down my nationality as Irish on the UCAS forms.

    We ere under orders not to and informed that we were reducing our chances of getting in if we put oursleves down as Irish.

    I remember thinking, f**k it I would rather not get in if that is the case.

    But I got the marks and got in and outside of a small number of people in Queens and Jordanstown I doubt think I reduced my chances by putting myself down as Irish.

    But it was the first time I came across Stoopism in its ideological form.

  • Turgon

    An tUdar,

    Ah yes the heroic patriots 99% of whom were for the decolonialisation of the country. I guess you are correct so long as you regard Douglas Deering and Marie Wilson as “colonisers.” Does Jean McConville fit that description as well? Or the people at Kingsmills, Darkely and the Shankill fish shop. Collie dog must be colonial as well then.

  • Garibaldy

    Ideology or myth ggn?

  • ggn

    Garibaldy,

    Explain?

  • Garibaldy

    Do you think it was Stoop ideology or a myth that had taken hold among teachers? I think though there might be something in it in so far as British university administrators were too stupid often to realise one could write Irish and still be a UK citizen, and thus have your fees paid etc. Also before the end of the Troubles, it mightn’t have been inconceivable that some people would react badly to it.

  • ggn

    Garibady.

    I see your point. Of course it is a bit of both, I am just saying that I saw the both.

    Personally, I think it is a bit of a myth but I assure you that some of the teachers were quite ‘ideological’ about the whole thing.

    Perhaps you have a different experience?

  • Garibaldy

    I think the advice we were given (the same as yourself) was from fear more than anything else. Especially for people wanting to go to British universities. I saw no signs of it being politically motivated.

  • ggn

    Garibaldy,

    The contrasts between British values in Britan and ‘British values’ in Northern Ireland is indeed lost on many.

  • Garibaldy

    It surely is.

  • Billy

    Traditional Unionist

    “you cannot support the rule of law one minute and then support terror the next”

    Would you apply that to the Orange Order also?

    Or are you another one of the Unionists who love to condemn Republicans but are happy to ignore the blatent hypocrisy of the OO with it’s past + present ‘loyalist’ terrorist members (still welcomed and never expelled), the many lodges with banners\bands commemorating ‘loyalist’ terrorists (the OO leadership tries in pathetic fashion to ignore these and never takes any action against them) and the (at best) tacit support for ‘loyalist’ terrorism from the OO?

    I have never been a member or supporter of the GAA.

    If any Unionist wants to condemn it but is also willing to condemn the Orange Order that’s fair enough.

    However, I and many others aren’t fooled by Unionists who criticise Republican terrorist commemorations but defend the OO.

    It’s blatent hypocrisy and plain for anyone to see.

  • RG Cuan

    the other 4 counties would have a majority who identify themselves as British.

    You sure about that CL? Check out this map. And that’s a reflection of 1991 – things has changed even further from then.

    And Ulster did not become defunct in 1921! It’s just split now between the RoI and NI.

  • Harry Flashman

    “I think the advice we were given (the same as yourself) was from fear more than anything else.”

    If you don’t mind me asking ggn, but what sort of lickspittle school did you go to?

    When we were filling out our university aplication forms some girl from Thornhill wrote to the Derry Journal a fatuous, querulousness letter about how she would have to put “British” and “Londonderry” in her UCCA form (showing my age now).

    The next morning at assembly in St Columb’s our admirably robust careers master addressed us and assured us that the girl in question was talking a load of rot. We were to put down “Derry” or “Londonderry”, “British” or “Irish” whichever we saw fit as the registrars at the British universities couldn’t give a flying feck one way or the other.

    Clearly your school was a bit more craven than St Columb’s, of which no less a stoop than John Hume himself is the most esteemed past pupil!

  • Harry Flashman

    Sorry I see Garibaldy made that point, I’ve been doing that alot with you lately Gari.

  • ranger1640

    Isn’t a pity barry mcelduff doesn’t have more of these events to go to instead of only 10. Ah well at lest he can go to his political and sectarian gaa to have an Orange Order rant to top up his sectarian hate of Unionists and Protestants.

  • cynic

    “We were under orders not to and informed that we were reducing our chances of getting in if we put oursleves down as Irish. ”

    …..errrrr who told you that? Its complete bo**ocks.

    While at University did you ever talk to any Prod students who are now refusing to apply for NI uiniversities because of what they believe is the gross discrmination aaginst them when they get there?

  • cynic

    “And of course, many of the recent patriots who had clubs named after them were part of the same anti-colonialn and revolutionary organisations who espoused the same ideology as those involved in the original Gaelic revival in the late 19th century. Now whether you like it or not, it is cultural and historical.”

    Put bluntly how dare you lump in people like Henry Joy McCracken and the United Irishmen in with the murdering scum who killed over 2000 fellow Irishmen including many women and children.

    How dare you talk about ‘idealism’ in that campaign.It was a squalid little secratian pogrom that perhaps put a United Irleand back by a genration or more.

    All your and SF’s attempts at revisionism to try to cover that up will eventually be seen for what they are. No wonder some of the leadership are now ashamed to admit that they were ever in PIRA.

  • cynic

    “Sinn Fein MLA Barry McElduff has called on nationalists to erase partition by campaigning on issues like SatNavs and UCAS forms.”

    Ah…normal politics again. But why does Barry’s speech remind me so much of the story of Clochmerle? And if you are too old to remember the plot here’s a summary

    “The year is 1925 and the place is Clochmerle, a small wine-growing village in Beaujolais.

    When Mayor Barthelemey Piechut decides that his town of Clochmerle requires a monument that will extol the virtues of the Republic and his own administration he ponders long and hard for something suitable. He follows the lead of the ancient Romans, famed for hygiene and noble edifices. He decides that the perfect expression of these two concepts would be a pissoir.

    Little was he to dream that this would lead to scandals that would shatter the peacefulness of the town and eventually have world-wide repercussions.”

  • Traditional_Unionist

    Billy,

    Can you explain to me how exactly you have saw any lodge of the Orange Order with “loyalist terrorist” banners?

    I can tell you now that is simply not true and you know it

  • Garibaldy

    Harry,

    You seem to be developing a blind spot regarding me alright, but I shall bear this cross as best I can.

  • Cuairteoir

    Is see Concerned Loyalist has been quiet since RG put up that map. There are only a few pockets of Unionism outside of Antrim and north/east Down.

    It might not be a bad idea to redraw the boundries of NI.

  • RG Cuan

    GRMA Cuairteoir, I noticed that myself.

    As for the size of the north, it’s not going to change overnight but some fresh thinking is definitely needed on the issue. I’ve never heard any of the nationalist parties mention the redrawing of the border but it may well be a possibility in the future.

    After all, the GFA is about the will of the people and if that means some of current NI joining the south and others remaining in a new NEI, so be it.

  • An tUdar

    “How dare you talk about ‘idealism’ in that campaign.It was a squalid little secratian pogrom.”

    Well firstly, if you bothered to red any of my comments and in particular the one strongly condemning Barry McIlduff, you will have noticed that i’m certainly not a Shinner!

    Maybe you’re a victim of media representation or had a Da who said ‘they were brought up to hate us’, either way you’re a victim and a product of British policy to devide and conquer. Therefore, you have only my sympathy Cynic.

    Most if not all Irish men who take up the gun to remove the British occupation of all things Irish and their attempts to administer their policies (including devide and conquer) do so because of ideals. Some of those were the removal of a contemporary Imperialist force (gone are the days were they march in their thousands on your capital you know). But if you are in any doubt as to what revolutionaries (in whatever era) signed up to then read the Democratic Programme and/or the 1916 Proclamation. No man nor beast could argue that any of these ideals were wrong.

    Ask me do i think that SF has sold those ideals out then i’ll say yes, I firmly belive that.

  • POL

    you cannot support the rule of law one minute and then support terror the next
    Posted by Traditional_Unionist on Jul 18, 2008 @ 11:41 AM

    One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

  • cynic

    Maybe you’re a victim of media representation or had a Da who said ‘they were brought up to hate us’, either way you’re a victim and a product of British policy to devide and conquer. Therefore, you have only my sympathy Cynic.

    Ah that’s it, and there was me, too thick to notice that! Thanks for the sympathy….. but I will pass on that and again refer you to the facts:-

    * who killed the majority of Catholics in the Troubles? PIRA

    * who murdered children and women – PIRA as well as some of the Loyalists

    * who ‘disappeared’ innocent people who were simply suspected of some ill defined form of collusion? PIRA

    Difficult to swallow (or live with) I know but never mind. You are one of the keepers of the true idealism. Or is it just a cult of violence?

  • Briso

    Posted by cynic on Jul 19, 2008 @ 08:26 AM
    Put bluntly how dare you lump in people like Henry Joy McCracken and the United Irishmen in with the murdering scum who killed over 2000 fellow Irishmen including many women and children.

    I don’t know muck about HJ McCracken. Did he use violence to try to kick the English out of Ireland?

  • Briso

    ^
    |
    muck should be much

  • An tUdar

    Dead on,

    Like it or not, there is a Republican Sociailist Ideology and whether you want to hear it or not, this is was drives people on towards this. I am not going to bite your sectarian biscuit no matter how mcuh you try.

    Answer this, what type of a world would you like to live in. A detailed answer will be sufficient.

  • cynic

    So many ologies………. but never mind…… they beat having to think dont they

    Always remember though, the fact that you belong to a religous or political cult doesnt make the ideology of that cult right. Nor does it justify the slaughter of your fellow citizens (from whatever side) in pursuit of it.

    People may be republcian if they want. They may be socialist. They have the right to be what they want to be, up to the point where they stop trying to persuade and start to use force on others or murder those they define as their opponents.

    Now where is the sectarianism in that? Or are you arguing that because the Republican Movement murdered more Catholics than anyone else they were by definition, non-sectarian?

  • Billy

    Traditional Unionist

    “Can you explain to me how exactly you have saw any lodge of the Orange Order with “loyalist terrorist” banners?

    I can tell you now that is simply not true and you know it”

    The OO parade in Ardoyne had a banner commemorating UVF terrorist Sam Rocket – this is not the first time this has happened.

    There was an OO banner on the Shankill commemorating UVF terrorist Brian Robinson.

    There were banners at parades in central Belfast commemorating “loyalist” sectarian terrorists Joe Bratty and Noel Kinnear.

    There was another banner on the Shankill commemorating UVF “loyalist” terrorist Aubrey Reid.

    In all these cases, these banners have been carried for some years and the OO “leadership” have done nothing.

    All this information is freely available on the internet.

    The OO and it’s supporters must think people are really stupid. Denials like yours are laughable when, with the advent of the internet, 24×7 news and much more impartial reporting from the North, they are so easily disproved.

    It’s like the OO denying that their members intimidated Catholics attending Mass at Harryville when TV pictures clearly showed thugs in OO collarettes doing just that.

    We had the incredibly pathetic OO “leadership” denying that their members attacked police at Whiterock when TV pictures showed them clearly doing so. We had the added bonus of a senior OO “leader” coming on TV and openly condoing these attacks.

    The OO ‘Leadership” denials of their members riotiong at Drumcree and mixing with known “loyalist” terrorists were shown to be bare faced lies by the TV coverage.

    The Bottom line is simple – the OO has been completely exposed for it’s completely hypocritical approach to “loyalist” terrorism.

    Whether you admit it or not, it’s public image is woeful and the so-called efforts of the OO “leadership to improve it have been laughable.

    OO “leaders” have done nothing about dealing with past + present “loyalist” terrorists in their ranks nor have they taken any action against lodges with banners and/or bands commemorating “loyalist” terrorsists.

    The examples I cited above, which have been going on for years, clearly illustrate that the OO “leadership” is unwilling or unable to deal with OO support for “loyalist” terrorism.

    When will they (and you) learn that simply repeating pathetic denials every year – that are then simply disproved will achieve nothing?

    Frankly, I doubt that the will exists among the OO to sever these links with “loyalist” terrorism.

    If + when they are willing to do so – and can prove it with clear action, their position may improve.

    However, if they want to keep repeating the same easily disproved lies every year, their public perception will stay at rock bottom and they will make no progress at all.

  • An tUdar

    But you see Cynic, you are missing the point when you say that the PIRA were sectarian. Secularism is a major ideal in the Republican Socialist Ideology so it doesn’t matter what religion that you are. I understand and accepted that there were many needless deaths and innocent bystanders and victims. On top of this there were some atrocities that i certainly was not proud of. Some of the examples that you gave were accidents (referring to the bombs exploding on the Shankill road aimed at wiping out Drugs dealers from the Loyalist Paramilitaries (including Johnny Adair and the rest of his gang).

    I accept that there were many many needless deaths, but this happens in war. Tell me a war where there were no civilian casualties? It’s horrible for everyone that this happened but my point is that these people did not go out on operations with the ‘yabba dabba do’ mindset that is so often affiliated with Loyalist paramiliataries. My point is that these people were ideologically driven to removing the occupying force whose policies were responsible for sectarianism, injustice, collusion and crimes against working class people from both sides.

    The points that I was making in between times was that Sinn Féin in my view have betrayed every victim of the war and not only the Republican Patriot dead. They are now part of the status quo and are advocating the same anti-working class politics that many of the enemies of Republicanism tried to do over the years.

    But my question to you is this (because I’m sure that we can find a lot of common ground and so that hopefully you will begin to learn that there is no threat to Unionists in the Republican Socialist Ideology), what type of country would you like to live in? Would you like to have a country where there is peace but yet, hundreds of thousands are living below the poverty line? Would you like to maintain that if you have more money, you can get better and quicker health care or a better education? Would you like there to be more suicides in North and West Belfast than anywhere else in the “UK”? (have to use that term because that’s where the statistics were got).

    You see i wouldn’t, i’d like a classless world where everyone is given the same opportunities regardless of race, creed, religion and that is what revolutionaries from Tone to Connolly to Bobby Sands and more fought for.

    Now pleae try to leave your anger at Republicans aside and see if you can live with these ideals? If you think they’re worthwhile then we agree and if you don’t then you are part of the establishment and status quo that have forsaken Irish people from all backgrounds.

    I’ll leave you with this nice quote from Stokely Carmichael from the Black Panthers that sums up what i’ve just said.

    “There’s a difference between peace and liberation. You can still have injustice and have peace. You can have peace and still be enslaved. So peace isn’t the answer, liberation is the answer. There will be no peace until everyone is equal.” Stokely Carmichael.

  • Paul

    Can anybody clarify if the GAA actually did organise this competition, or more likely, was it an unofficial competition organsied by the club concerned?

    If the club did in fact apply for the competition to be officially recognised, did they make clear that the competition was part of a political commemoration?

  • cynic

    “Secularism is a major ideal in the Republican Socialist Ideology so it doesn’t matter what religion that you are.”

    …..oh yeah….so did anyone ever tell the membership / sign up to that?

    “I understand and accepted that there were many needless deaths”

    …… your ‘acceptance’ will be comforting, I am sure

    “Some of the examples that you gave were accidents (referring to the bombs exploding on the Shankill road”

    …. the only accident on the Shankill Road was that the fuse was so short that even the bombers couldnt get away, the target was Adair but there was no intention not to kill the shoppers.

    “You see I wouldn’t, i’d like a classless world where everyone is given the same opportunities regardless of race, creed, religion”

    ….agree on the opportunity issue but you will never ever get a classless world. Some are born to lead, others are happy to follow. There has never been a truely classless society, nor I suspect, will there be. Its a utopian dream – or possibly nightmare

    “Now pleae try to leave your anger at Republicans aside ”

    ….read my posts. I am not just angry at Republicans. I believe that where you have a political route open to argue your case, murdering people in whatever cause you believe is fundamentally wrong no matter who you are or what the cause is. Again, I must say, it seems to me that you want to impoise your definition of libery on everyone. And that is just anotehr version of oppression.

  • An tUdar

    Alright, i’ve tried – you’re clearly so bitter that you cannot see beyond your nose. Your point about others born to lead and others born to follow is ridiculous. What you outlined is the product of living in a non-participatory, every man for themselves capitalist world and am I so wrong to believe in a different one??

    You can choose to be part of the status quo and to side with the powerful against the powerless but i won’t. Let’s hope for the hundreds and thousands of disadvantaged people being affected by poverty that you’re wrong.

    “Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one’s self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all.”

  • Concerned Loyalist

    However, it is my opinion that 99% of members in armed struggle were for the decolonialisation of the country, were non-sectarian, were at war with the British and their infrastructure in Ireland.
    Posted by An tUdar on Jul 18, 2008 @ 04:46 PM…………………………………………

    You need your head seen to. If anything 99% of the PIRA/INLA and the other splinter gangs were sectarian, pure and simple. That might of been a by-product of their hatred for “The Brits”, but that’s not the point, they still hated “The Prods” who happened to be British too in case you forgot!

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Garibaldy,

    The contrasts between British values in Britan and ‘British values’ in Northern Ireland is indeed lost on many.

    Posted by ggn on Jul 18, 2008 @ 06:35 PM
    It surely is.

    Posted by Garibaldy on Jul 18, 2008 @ 06:40 PM…………………………………………

    Why don’t the two of you get a room and take your flirting somewhere else so we can concentrate on attempting to address the serious subject at hand! 🙂

  • Concerned Loyalist

    you cannot support the rule of law one minute and then support terror the next
    Posted by Traditional_Unionist on Jul 18, 2008 @ 11:41 AM

    One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

    Posted by POL on Jul 19, 2008 @ 03:49 PM…………………………………………

    A republican who kills a person because of their religion or nationality is a bigot, not a freedom fighter. I call a spade a spade…

  • Paul

    Fair Deal,

    unless you have proof that the competition was actually organised or sanctioned by the GAA, the follwing phrase

    [i]The parade followed a GAA football competition[/i]

    should actually read

    [i]The parade followed a gaelic football competition[/i]

    The distinction is important, for without it there would be a false implication that the GAA as an organisation sanctioned this event.

    I’d say that its more likely that the shinners organised this, not the GAA.

    Any word on the teams that took part?
    My bet is that they weren’t official GAA teams.
    I can’t see any team comprised of at least some SDLP supporters having anything to do with this.

    It would almost certainly break the GAA’s rules on being non-political.