Ireland: land of hard knocks and long held grudges…

I’ve not managed to get hold of a copy of the latest version of LIves Entwined, the British Council sponsored assay of relations within and between these islands. For us nordies it is likely to be the most compelling read of all three, since it teams with names familiar to Slugger readers. Indeed it includes work by some of the best journalistic talent including Olivia O’Leary, Mary Fitzgerald, and David McWilliams. Davy Adams has a fulsome piece based on his own contribution as his regular fortnightly op ed in the Irish Times today. He notes at the outset:

….we already know what the British think of us: they have only positive things to say. The real question is whether this friendliness is now being reciprocated. I’m afraid the answer is, no.

He continues:

Self-evidently, relations are a lot better than they were, but genuine goodwill seems still to be flowing largely in only one direction. On this side of the Irish Sea, the past is not so much being put behind us, as being put to different use.

Forgiveness rather than outright hostility is now the official Irish attitude to Britain, and this is reflected throughout the Lives Entwined series. But it is forgiveness of the self-serving kind.

That may(or indeed may not, I haven’t read had the opportunity to read the latest volume in full) be true, but he goes on to make a point about the past that usefully bears repetition. Particularly now at a time when the Republic is adopting a foreign policy of what some have called ‘active neutrality’ through the agency of the EU:

The hard historical truth is that Ireland was, at best, every bit as much coloniser as colonised, it being part of the then United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Ireland) on whose behalf the British Empire was founded and maintained. Whether it suits or not, it is nonetheless indisputable fact that it wasn’t only the English who sailed around the world laying claim on behalf of the UK to wherever and whatever took their fancy, but the Scottish, Welsh and, yes, the Irish as well.

It should hardly need pointing out that, unlike elected representatives from Ireland, there were no gentlemen from India or Africa or any other colony able to take seats in the British House of Commons.

Does anyone truly believe that Ireland would not have created, just as anyone with enough military muscle did, an empire in its own right had it been able? Ireland is indeed exceptional, though, in at least one sense.

It is somewhat ironic that most of the nations who were former British colonies long ago discarded the comfort blanket of colonial victimhood (though God knows they had every right to cling to it).

Although some have been independent for less than 50 years, virtually all now welcome with open arms periodic visits by British dignitaries of every kind, including royalty.

Compare that with the situation here.

After almost a century of independence, Ireland is congratulating itself no end on now being mature enough to stage a rugby game against England at Croke Park for the first time, with the British national anthem played without fuss. By any standards, hardly the mark of maturity.

It’s a typically robust analysis from Adams. Although it’s interesting to note that the research that kicked all of this activity off was a survey amongst the under forties in the Republic. The de facto truth about the East West relationship amongst the mass of ordinary Irish citizens of the Republic, is that the relationship between the two is unremittingly positive.

It may take a little time before our ‘intelligensia’ catch up with Myles na gCopaleen’s ineluctable Greek chorus, ‘the plain people of Ireland’.

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  • Peking

    cladycowboy

    Education and IQ are two totally separate things.

    As for this American of your’s who was able to tell what the average IQ of the people in Ireland was in the 1800s. You must think I’ve an IQ of about 45 to believe that nonsense.

  • cladycowboy

    Peking

    “Education and IQ are two totally separate things.”

    Er, I know. It was you who put them in the same sentence.

    “As for this American of your’s who was able to tell what the average IQ of the people in Ireland was in the 1800s. You must think I’ve an IQ of about 45 to believe that nonsense.”

    I wasn’t trying to dazzle you with his yankicity, I just recall he was investigating leaps in young black male IQ and found that it was true across all ‘races’ through time. He wasn’t specific about Ireland. If you’d an IQ of 45 then you wouldn’t question what is told to you, further emphasizing my (intentionally comic) point.

    I do, fully believe though that vast swathes of the Irish people were kept in a position of such complete shock that they were incapable of thinking of greater solutions than limmited Home rule.

  • consul

    Peking

    Okay this might be a lot to get your head around all at once but believe it or not religious denomination in the Republic is obsolete. Probably 200,000 RoI citizens are protestant and I’d like to hear about the discrimination they apparently face. Give me one example outside Ulster where sectarianism has surfaced. Fair employment and anti-discrimination laws are required in NI in the early years of this century because of the attitudes that have been prevalent there up until now. The Irish Constitution is quite sufficient to deal with any such issue and if it is the case that the Euro project is pushed through then I imagine that it would legislate as required. At any rate your suggestion that modern Ireland would be hostile to non RCs doesn’t stand up. Everyone over 18 has a vote and the people are sovereign, the government serves the people not the other way around.

    “Albert also talked about some mechanisms…” Alberts words came about 30 or 40 years before the fact, people should be thinking about life after tribalism and dysfunction and you would think work towards something more conventional. You know sometimes I wonder when I hear of people from both sides express their exasperation at the abnormal tribal nature of political life in NI yet refuse to countenance normality. Well maybe they need time to grow sufficiently sick of mandotory coalition (another 8-10?) remains to be seen.

  • consul

    I forgot Peking to pick up on your point re federal government. Only countries with large populations employ it. Six million people in a relatively small place dont need multiple governments especially on the wages that politicians in Ireland like to pay themselves, no no there would be one central government in Dublin should unification come about.

  • kensei

    All of the human rights, fair employment and general anti-discrimination legislation, as well as cultural safeguards, for a start. They would all be incorporated into law in the new Republic.

    Aside from “cultural safeguards” (though please note the money the Republic spent at the Boyne, for example, and the money announced for the OO) what legislation is required beyond the Irish Constitution and European law?

  • Dewi

    I don’t know Consul – the “tribalism” is so long founded and structural that it’s not easy to fix.
    Everyone quotes Churchill’s “dreary steeples” but the best bit of that speech was when he referred to the “integrity” of the quarrel. Never really got how a quarrel could have “integrity” untill reading Slugger for a while.
    Thus Irish Nationalists need to recognise the “nationhood” of the Ulster Scots. Canada has had a go with the “nationhood” of Quebec recognised in the constitution.

  • willowfield

    Kensei/Consul

    If the Irish [sic] Constitution is sufficient to address discrimination, how come the S.Irish Parliament has passed numerous anti-discrimination laws, similar to those operating in NI and the rest of the UK?

    On the wider issue, the anti-discrimination laws in the South are already broadly the same as those in NI – so I see no issue about discrimination in a “united Ireland”. So Peking’s discrimination issue is a red herring.

  • Steve

    Dewi

    The Nationhood of Quebec is NOT recognized in the Canadian Constitution, it was proposed but soundly rejected under referendum

  • Greenflag

    Dewi ,

    Thus Irish Nationalists need to recognise the “nationhood” of the Ulster Scots.

    So not the Ulster English or the Ulster Welsh never mind the Gaelic Gatholic irish Unionists ?
    Perhaps the term Ulster British would have been more accurate than just the Ulster Scots ?

    That’s what a fair ‘repartition’ would achieve . Apparently the Ulster British seem as keen on repartition as they do on the bubonic plague or power sharing with the SDLP back at the time of Sunningdale ?

    as Canada has had a go with the “nationhood” of Quebec recognised in the constitution.

    A Canadian is an unarmed American with health insurance . If there was ever a country more in need of a national identity it has to be Canada.:) The Northern Irish are not Canadians and do not aspire to be either but if they could find a fairly empty spot like northern Alberta or preferably the Yukon where they could ship out the Northern ‘malcontents’ that could be a blessing . We can easily repopulate it with some Eastern europeans and newer English/Scots /Welsh immigrants plus a few from China etc etc .

    The place would be humming with entrepreuneurial activity within a decade 😉

  • consul

    Dewi

    Certainly not easy to fix but the ones who should be trying the hardest are those who have to live with it. It is a task that must be attempted. You know before communications took off it was harder to get an insight into the world at large. All people down south knew of unionists was they wanted to maintain partition and they did not think much of the rest of Ireland. Little was known of their culture, the complexities of their world view or what basically makes them tick. Personally I had fallen into the trap of thinking that because they were in the same parties that they had 100% consensus on everything. If I had considered it of course for 30 seconds I would have seen that to be absurd that 8 or 900,000 people would be on the same page on issues other than you know what. Same is true for nationalists, both of their parties are socialist. Is every catholic in NI a socialist? Given that the unionist parties have the same ideas economically you have to ask is everyone in NI a socialist? I doubt it, there may be some who are at heart but I suspect the fact that NI, the way it is set up is a natural breeding ground for that philosophy is the reason for this and that is just one example. I bet there’s loads of people in the same parties who in a regular enviroment are poles apart in terms of policy, and I bet there’s people there who end up voting for the same parties who in any other time or place would not vote for the same party in a million years. That is why even though it may be difficult people should decide this is something they must achieve. If they could it would be interesting to see what sort of party would gain ascendancy.

  • willowfield

    None of the main NI parties is socialist.

  • consul

    Willow

    “None of the main NI parties is socialist.”

    Sinn Féin are not socialist??
    SDLP are not socialist??
    And the unionist parties are working off the subvention also. Their economic policies are the same as far as I can see.

  • Dewi

    I missed that Steve – when was that?

    Didn’t this pass:

    Motion

  • willowfield

    Consul

    Sinn Féin are not socialist??
    SDLP are not socialist??
    And the unionist parties are working off the subvention also. Their economic policies are the same as far as I can see.

    Correct. None is socialist. All favour a capitalist economic system.

    The only socialist parties contesting elections in NI are the Socialist Party and (possibly) the Workers [sic] Party.

  • Dewi

    Try and suggest some of the necessary actions Consul:

    1) Compulsory integrated education.
    2) A banning (or at the very least a radical reduction in the nunmber) of parades.
    3) Allowing Irish to be spoken in courts.

    See how far you get……

  • Greenflag

    ‘Never really got how a quarrel could have “integrity” ‘

    Look at the history of the rise of Irish nationalism from the first awakenings of a cultural ‘nationalism ‘ as far back as Brian Boru’s time to the emerging ‘political’ nationalism of the 17th /18th /19th and 20th and now 21st century and that should be enough to convince you that Irish ‘nationalism’ is very much a reality . It’s ‘normal’ development was skewed /distorted simply by it’s juxtaposition with the emergence of English /British imperilaism . Ireland was ‘different’ from Scotland and Wales in that ‘resistance’ in both the latter nations faded away post 1700 in Scotland and from the 14th century in Wales with Owen Glendower IIRC . Ireland was also predominantly Catholic and at least nominally remains so -although the early ‘nationalists ‘ were predominantly Protestant . England ‘feared’ and had reason to the vastly more populous Catholic countries of France and Spain from the 16th century through 1812 ? During that long period 1603 through 1829 and indeed through to the end of the 19th century Britain essentially either ignored Ireland when it could and was dragged in to reignite the fires of resistance when it had to . Up to the middle 19th century ‘language ‘ difference was also a major factor in ‘insulating’ the English from the ‘real’ Ireland of the majority . Ireland’s english imposed ‘isolation’ from the rest of europe 1600 through 1922 also skewed irish ‘nationalism’ with a strong anti British flavour . Despite all of the above Ireland could probably still have ended up choosing ‘Home Rule’ within the Empire . The fact that they did’nt is not a reflection of the strength of the minority of physical force ‘republicans’ but has more to do with the failure of the British State to make the necessary ‘reforms’ they needed to make in Ireland at the time when they would have made a difference and not as too often happened long after the ‘Republicans ‘ made political hay with the British ‘delay’ and thus outpoliticked the ‘moderate’ nationalists .

    It’s as we now see deja vu again in NI . No doubt many will say better late than never . I’m not so sure .

    It would be an interesting ‘exercise’ to speculate how Irish ‘nationalism ‘ would have developed had Ireland ‘never’ been conquered or half conquered by the neighbouring isle .

    I suspect that like the Japanese did with the Chinese -that the Irish would have taken /absorbed that which which was of benefit and left behind that which was ‘not ‘ wanted ‘

  • Dewi

    “Perhaps the term Ulster British would have been more accurate than just the Ulster Scots ?”

    Whatever they prefer Greenflag.

  • A N Other

    joinedupthinking,

    “Cork, Limerick & the other no-go areas that encircle Dublin…”

    ????

    Now excuse me for being persumptious, but what exactly is your knowledge of the three urban areas above, that you’ve decided
    to tar with such an extreme brush?

    Or do you merely believe everything you read in the media?…

    An ignorant broadbrush & blasé comment such as yours from three pages’ back on this thread requires rebuttal. It indicates to me, that you
    know very little of the three areas in question.

    Moreover, your name dropping of your stereotypical opinion of these three areas displayed a readiness to criticise areas of the Republid of Ireland….

    At the drop of a hat.

    Social problems are the preserve of all urban areas – or do you just think that they occur in the South???

    So, I’ll take you through each of the urban areas above, given I went to Uni in one, & worked in two of the others.

    Limerick

    As the song goes, “Limerick, you’re a lady…” – or maybe not, given the well-documentated murderous fueds that have taken place on
    Shannonside since the early “Noughties”.

    In a nutshell, the barbaric turf-war that has occurred in three suburbs of Limerick (Southill, Island Field & parts of Ballyneety) is driven by
    one issue – drugs.

    Given the City’s geographical location (in SW Ireland, close to major ports), it’s status as a distributions’ point for the importation of contra-bond
    is unrivalled; as such, the potential for immense profit-teering & the greed associated herewith.

    Cork

    Your reference to Cork baffled me. Every large urban area in the world has social problems – with Cork being no different. Yes, there are decent,
    working class areas on Leeside & of course, there is one in particular (known locally as “Knocka”) that no self-respecting member of public would
    choose to cross some of the inhabitants of.

    Bear in mind, there’s an area of West Belfast not one mile from the City Centre that’s known as “Beirut”….

    But really, the only thing that shocks me about Cork everytime I’m down from a social viewpoint, is the sheer volume of newly registered BMW’s driving
    around “D’Banks”.

    Dublin

    With the notable exceptions of Finglas, Crumlin & Driminagh (all once honest, working-class areas – where once again, deplorable turf wars over drugs
    are a fact-of-life), your comment is horse-shit.

    Mind you, the Dublin Metropolitian Area is home to c1.5m inhabitants – so you don’t expect there to be some social problems???…

    If you spent less time in engaging in “Southern Whataboutery” with stupid, ill-educated remarks & more time actually constructively debating the points
    raised by other posters of a differing political persuasion, then I may in future, have more time for your posts.

    It was equivalent to me lambasting:-

    – Ballymena’s “heroin problem”;

    – Carrick’s “police shooting Loyalists”; and

    – North Belfast’s “interface rioting”.

    i.e. I don’t know enough about said areas (And the subsequent sensationalist media reporting of said “events” above). Ergo, I’m not in a position to
    comment, in any format, on each of the above.

    Because I’m not in full position of the facts, from personal experience, to do so.

    But in reality, I’m not the 1st poster on this thread to shoot-down your bullshit – and methinks, I won’t be the last…

    As such, I look forward (with beathed breath!) to your reply…

    ANO

  • Dewi

    Plantation might have an ever so slight bearing on this particular quarrel GF…..(we can keep this up till the Twelfth)

  • cladycowboy

    “Correct. None is socialist. All favour a capitalist economic system.”

    Correct in that they are not socialist (or no longer such).

    They all favour being in power. Sinn Fein used to voice a vision different from the Capitalist system but with the trips to Washington and the realisation that the ‘markets’ would punish them for going down the route of worker protection coupled with their thirst for power has led them to embrace the status quo. I wouldn’t say they favour it though. Again, it boils down to choices or rather the ones we are allowed to have.

  • Peking

    “IQ usually has a strong correlation with level of education and during the 1800’s…”

    Cladycowboy, it was you not me who made the above daft statement.

    Consul
    I didn’t say there was anti-protestant discrimination now being practiced in the south (though until recently the place was virtually a catholic theocracy) but was responding to the silly claim that nothing of the GFA or SA agreements would survive unity. As proof of good intent, if nothing else, the things I mentioned would survive – that’s what it says in the GFA anyway.

    I might point out to Willow with his off-hand “red herring” dismissal: Read the report in todays Irish Times drawing attention to Amnesty International’s 2008 report which criticises Ireland, yet again, for large gaps in its Human Rights legislation.

    Consul
    Take your issues over the idea of a federal, or confederal, Ireland up with Seamus Mallon it’s him who raised it again.
    But don’t rule it out either, especially on a hardly scientific “nowhere else our size uses it” basis, or on the cost issue (when did that ever come into the equation in this part of the world, where “if it works go with it” is the rule of thumb?)

  • willowfield

    I might point out to Willow with his off-hand “red herring” dismissal: Read the report in todays Irish Times drawing attention to Amnesty International’s 2008 report which criticises Ireland, yet again, for large gaps in its Human Rights legislation.

    What’s that got to do with discrimination law?

  • cladycowboy

    “Cladycowboy, it was you not me who made the above daft statement.”

    Look Peking mucker, it’s tedious having to labour on the most insignificant part of my post. You first put IQ and education in the same sentence. I only responded to it.

    Btw, are you suggesting there is not a significant positive correlation between IQ and level of education attained?

  • Dewi

    “Ireland was ‘different’ from Scotland and Wales in that ‘resistance’ in both the latter nations faded away post 1700 in Scotland and from the 14th century in Wales with Owen Glendower IIRC . Ireland was also predominantly Catholic and at least nominally remains so -although the early ‘nationalists ‘ were predominantly Protestant”

    The relative rate of industrialisation a big factor also. You had armed insurrections (of a minor scale cf Ireland) in South Wales in 1831 and 1839. I think the government policy of distiction between Lowland and Highland Scots also fairly succesful in instigating “quarrels”.
    One of the most influential effects of the famine was to create a fairly intensely nationalistic diaspora – a big influence on IRB etc – and source of funds arms…enough – I’ll stop stating the obvious.

  • consul

    Dewi

    They are things to do when society is ready, naturally next week is to soon but times do change however slowly.

    Willow

    When I see them quack I’ll accept they are ducks but not before.

  • willowfield

    Sorry, consul, I’m afraid that makes absolutely no sense to me.

  • Peking

    Willow, I see you are confused.

    Actually it’s ANTI-discrimination law I’m talking about, and it has everything to do with human rights legislation.

    DISCRIMINATION law, ie laws designed to discriminate, as you refer to, would cover the likes of the apartheid legislation that existed previously in South Africa.

    cladycowboy
    Now you really are twisting things.
    You ask me: “Btw, are you suggesting there is not a significant positive correlation between IQ and level of education attained?”

    Of course there is. The higher the IQ the more likely educational achievement will be higher.

    But that is totally different to what you originally claimed, which was that IQ levels amongst Irish people were very low during the 1800s. Equivalent to remedial nowadays I think you said. You claimed this was because of lack of education.
    That is nonsense, IQ levels do not go up or down based on education. Simple fact.

  • consul

    Peking

    If you go back far enough this state was utterly sectarian but it is not now, that is what is relevant. In the event of unity NI would be an extension of the existing republic. Amendments to the constitution to include elements of the GFA would be minimal due to the fact that not much from a treaty which would then be likely 30 years old and possibly 15 years out of date would be required. To believe otherwise would be silly.

    By the by I feel no need to take anything up with Séamus Mallon why would I? Just because he has a hankering for federalism does not mean it’s in the post. Just because they like to throw money around in NI does not mean it can be done willy nilly when you have to raise all of it yourself. The wee six would be part of the machine in a UI rather than a trailer such as they are in the UK. The appetite for throwing huge amounts of money at glorified councillors might find itself on the wane when there isn’t someone else to pay for it.

  • kensei

    If the Irish [sic] Constitution is sufficient to address discrimination, how come the S.Irish Parliament has passed numerous anti-discrimination laws, similar to those operating in NI and the rest of the UK?

    The state to your South is called simply “Ireland”. The Constitution is therefore the Constitution of Ireland. If you must be a pedant, then the correctest term is probably “Bunreacht no hÉireann” as the Irish takes precedence. Similarly, there is no Irish Parliament, merely the Oireachtas (or Dáil Éireann if you want simply the most important bit of the legislature).

    Anyway, the Constitution is primarily concerned with the rights of the citizens and the limitations on the state and I’m not sure if it covers for example, the actions of corporations. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could clarify. Second, it’s by no means specific enough to deal with all cases, and will make reference to the law e.g. 40.1

    The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.

    Punishment and scope must be covered for example.

    So laws are required, but the Constitution deals with the most important fundamental interactions with the state, and sets an agenda that the law will have to follow. Between the Constitution, Irish Law and EU Law, I’d be surprised if there is much left uncovered these days.

  • cladycowboy

    Peking

    “But that is totally different to what you originally claimed, which was that IQ levels amongst Irish people were very low during the 1800s”

    Agreed. It would have been the same across all countries.

    “You claimed this was because of lack of education.”

    No i didn’t.

    ” That is nonsense, IQ levels do not go up or down based on education. Simple fact”

    I don’t think it’s that simplistic. Regularly doing maths/problems (a form of education) can improve (albeit temporarily) IQ.

    “DISCRIMINATION law, ie laws designed to discriminate, as you refer to, would cover the likes of the apartheid legislation that existed previously in South Africa.”

    Apartheid still exists in South Africa btw. It’s just a little more subtle. The ANC got the running of the state but it was stripped off it’s assets and rendered toothless by the departing National Party and associated special interests.

  • Peking

    “If you must be a pedant, then the correctest term…”

    If he must be a pedant then he’ll surely point out that there is no such word as “correctest”.

    Consul
    I agree with your first para. Merely pointing out what it says in the GFA and the high liklihood that the southern gov of the day would bend over backwards to allay unionist fears.

  • Peking

    “Regularly doing maths/problems (a form of education) can improve (albeit temporarily) IQ.”

    Well it sure as hell hasn’t improved yours.

  • consul

    Willow

    If you don’t understand that Sinn Féin and the SDLP for example are socialist despite the S in SDLP and Sinn Féins oft repeated mantra for their 32 county socialist republic then I suppose your confusion re my last comment is entirely understandable.

  • cladycowboy

    “Well it sure as hell hasn’t improved yours.”

    Does ‘man’ look the same as ‘ball’ to you? If it does we may have found a dyslexic root to your uncalled for attack.

  • Peking

    consul
    Behave yourself, even the labour party (B or I, whichever one you like) isn’t socialist any more.

  • consul

    I don’t see B or I Labour in NI do you? Whether they are socialist or not is irrelevant. Tell me why you think subvention to the degree it has reached in NI isn’t socialism.

  • Peking

    SDLP is nationalist, akin to green tories. Paddy Devlin and Gerry Fitt left the party because of its lack of socialism. It was they who insisted on “labour” in the name, much against Hume’s wishes.

    Sinn Fein is an extreme nationalist party, about as socialist as the Nazis: and they had socialist in their party name as well, BTW.

    NEXT!!!!

  • consul

    Tell me what their constitutional preference has to do with their day to day policies. When you’ve explained why patronage politics isn’t socialism maybe you can tell me what their politics are if not socialism.

  • Greenflag

    Dewi ,

    ‘One of the most influential effects of the famine was to create a fairly intensely nationalistic diaspora ‘

    True and predominantly in the USA and to an extent in Australia – a case of absence /distance making the heart less fond ?-

    Those who ‘moved’ to the UK were mostly quiescent or put their political energies to the social reform movements which gathered pace in Britain in the 19th century and later. Without the Irish American financial backing and support the Free State might never have been born or survived more than a decade IMO.

    ‘I’ll stop stating the obvious.’
    Commendable strategy 🙂 as we head towards 400?

    Consul

    ‘When I see them quack I’ll accept they are ducks but not before.’

    Never mistake a pimple for the pox and be mindful that not all who who ‘quack’ are necessarily ducks 🙂

    Great win by Ireland over the Babas and without Brian O’Driscoll- Munster bate Frenchies at Toulouse . The Welsh are in for it next year 🙂

  • Dewi

    “The Welsh are in for it next year ”

    You and whose Army ? Lol – best of luck in NZ…..

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Willow

    >>…I was misled by Wikipedia – you pointed out the exaggerated figure on Wikipedia – I acknowledged it. That’s it – doesn’t alter the substance of the point.< < Yet you were happy to use this exaggerated figure in an attempt to downplay the Irish famine. The substance of your point remember? The Highland famine never produced much if any in the way of death or movement of people, mainly because of the money raised in Glasgow and Edinburgh to feed them. And even the much maligned landholders providing relief with boatfuls of oats going to isolated communities. So a vastly different response in Scotland to Ireland, not quite the story you tried to portray. -PE - This is a surreal emperor and clothes moment - Willow - How? Perhaps the pretense at being thick becomes you willow? You seized on my evidence of perhaps hundreds of thousands of displaced persons and emigrants in the Highland clearances to somehow justify your outlandish claim that 1.7 million were forced to emigrate because of the minor Highland famine. You can keep kidding yourself as long as you like chum, but don't try and piss in my pocket and tell me it's raining. It's rude apart from anything else. Peking >>I can only imagine then that news of Darkley, Enniskillen, Teebane and scores of other sectarian murders of Protestant men, women and children along the border didn’t make it to Scotland.<< Haud oan! First you claimed it was ethnic cleansing and the like now it is several brutal murderous episodes and scores of people ethnically cleansed. Unless there were only a hundred Prods along the border in the first place, I'm right about those making such silly claims as flagging themselves up as eedjits. In context to your claims then there was ethnic cleansing and genocide going on all over the six counties of Nationalists/Catholics. Even though I'd certainly have a much better claim than you, I wouldn't dream of making such a ludicrous claim. You actually do a disservice to actual cases of ethnic cleansing and genocide throughout the world with your infantile mutterings. Be a good boy and stop it.

  • Dewi

    Then came the Great War. Every institution, almost, in the world was strained. Great Empires have been overturned. The whole map of Europe has been changed. The position of countries has been violently altered. The modes of thought of men, the whole outlook on affairs, the grouping of parties, all have encountered violent and tremendous changes in the deluge of the world. But as the deluge subsides and the waters fall short, we see the dreary steeples of Fermanagh and Tyrone emerging once again. The integrity of their quarrel is one of the few institutions that has been unaltered in the cataclysm which has swept the world.”

    Winston Churchill, 1922

    Might be worthy of discussion. (although Wales’s prospects in South Africa at least as worthy)

  • willowfield

    Prionsa

    Yet you were happy to use this exaggerated figure in an attempt to downplay the Irish famine.

    I wasn’t.

    First, I have acknowledged (possibly three times now) that the figure was wrong. Second, I wasn’t downplaying the Irish famine.

    The substance of your point remember?

    Yes: there was severe economic hardship and suffering in other parts of the UK. The point remains.

    The Highland famine never produced much if any in the way of death or movement of people, mainly because of the money raised in Glasgow and Edinburgh to feed them. And even the much maligned landholders providing relief with boatfuls of oats going to isolated communities. So a vastly different response in Scotland to Ireland, not quite the story you tried to portray.

    I note you ignore the Clearances! Rather disingenuous.

    You seized on my evidence of perhaps hundreds of thousands of displaced persons and emigrants in the Highland clearances to somehow justify your outlandish claim that 1.7 million were forced to emigrate because of the minor Highland famine.

    No I didn’t. Stop lying.

  • Greenflag

    Dewi ,

    Winnie was always good for the apt phrase as above or the snappy retort.

    Shortly afer losing the 1945 election to Clement Attlee the pair passed each other in the mens room following a debate on nationalisation . Winnie furtively moved away to the furthest corner . Attlee from a standing position facing the same wall as Winnie shouted sideways to Winnie who was busily engaged finding his member to release some water .

    ‘Feeling a little aloof and stand offish today are we Winnie ‘ chortled Clement .


    ‘Have to -self preservation old chap ‘ replied Winnie, pulling up his zipper and then quick as a flash ‘ I’ve noticed that when you lot see anything big you immediately want to nationalise it ‘!

  • Dewi

    Greenflag – we need to keep this going to the 12th because we are thran.

  • Peking

    Prionsa Eoghan
    I never mentioned ethnic cleansing. Those are your words, I spoke of a murderous sectarian campaign.

    Did it take you from last night to look the places I mentioned up on a map?
    Safer sticking to the nonsense you write about Scotland, at least you know where the locations are, if not much else.

    Besides, we’ve enough long rifles in this part of the world.

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    “But that is totally different to what you originally claimed, which was that IQ levels amongst Irish people were very low during the 1800s. Equivalent to remedial nowadays I think you said. You claimed this was because of lack of education.
    That is nonsense, IQ levels do not go up or down based on education. Simple fact.”

    True , IQ levels do not go up or down based on education.

    But one must take into account too the very important factors such as diet as well
    environment, up bringing, etc… Such factors are relevant today with families that are classed as bottom of the socio-economic ladder.

  • A N Other

    WF,

    PE has you by the short & curlies.

    Or can you just NEVER admit when you are wrong??

    Either way, your posts make for excellent pre-bedtime reading.

    PE,

    There are none who are so blind as those who cannot see.

    ANO

  • Driftwood

    348 posts into cyber ether.
    Move on folks. I did with Led Zeppelin 10 years ago.
    Now I like Fairport Convention
    So it goes..

  • willowfield

    PEKING

    Actually it’s ANTI-discrimination law I’m talking about, and it has everything to do with human rights legislation.

    Yet you are unable to explain how!

    KENSEI

    The state to your South is called simply “Ireland”.

    Except in the Republic of Ireland Act 1948! And we all know that “Ireland” is a misnomer (it only covers part of Ireland: the rest is in the UK).

    The Constitution is therefore the Constitution of Ireland.

    It’s only the constitution for the 26 counties (NI is part of the UK and is not covered).

    Anyway, the Constitution is primarily concerned with the rights of the citizens and the limitations on the state and I’m not sure if it covers for example, the actions of corporations. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could clarify. Second, it’s by no means specific enough to deal with all cases, and will make reference to the law e.g. 40.1

    Constitutions set out principles and rights. Legislation is necessary to supplement or add to those. The constitution alone is not enough to provide an effective anti-discrimination legal regime.

    The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.

    Yes, but it needs to pass laws in order that they can respect, defend and vindicate rights!

    So laws are required

    Exactly!

    Between the Constitution, Irish Law and EU Law, I’d be surprised if there is much left uncovered these days.

    Er, that was my point! The last time you left out Irish [sic] law.

    CONSUL

    If you don’t understand that Sinn Féin and the SDLP for example are socialist despite the S in SDLP and Sinn Féins oft repeated mantra for their 32 county socialist republic then I suppose your confusion re my last comment is entirely understandable.

    Neither PSF nor the SDLP is socialist. Having the word “social” in a party’s title doesn’t make it socialist! Wise up.

    A N OTHER

    Or can you just NEVER admit when you are wrong??

    I think this is now the FOURTH time that I have acknowledged that the figure – taken from Wikipedia – was wrong. Please do not deliberately misrepresent other posters.

  • kensei

    willow

    Except in the Republic of Ireland Act 1948! And we all know that “Ireland” is a misnomer (it only covers part of Ireland: the rest is in the UK).

    The Act provides for a description of the State, not the name. The name is set out in the Constitution, which has primacy.

    If it really bugs you, consider that both “Virginia” and “West Virginia” exist. There is no “Southern Ireland” or “Irish Free State”.

  • willowfield

    The Act provides for a description of the State, not the name. The name is set out in the Constitution, which has primacy.

    As I said: it’s a misnomer.

    If it really bugs you, consider that both “Virginia” and “West Virginia” exist. There is no “Southern Ireland” or “Irish Free State”.

    There’s no “South Korea”, “Switzerland”, “Taiwan”, “Greece” and numerous other places under your logic.

  • kensei

    willow

    There’s no “South Korea”, “Switzerland”, “Taiwan”, “Greece” and numerous other places under your logic.

    Technically, there isn’t. And I’m sure China, for example, would dispute “Taiwan”.

  • willowfield

    You stick to your technicalities, then, Kensei!

    The rest of us will use appropriate and accurate language.

  • Steve

    lol somebody out pendanted willow……. will wonders never cease

  • consul

    willow

    Those parties are still socialist and you’re still wrong.

  • Peking

    Just because you call yourself something doesn’t necessarily make you it.

    Is a man a zebra just because he starts claiming he is, or because consul supports his claim? He has every right to refer to himself as a zebra, but others have every right to point out that actually he isn’t one.

    Where is the evidence of socialism in the SDLP or Sinn Fein’s politics?

    What is socialism anyway? How would you define it?

  • willowfield

    Consul

    Those parties are still socialist and you’re still wrong.

    Incisive argument, there, consul – you’ve blown me away. How could anyone argue with that?

    LOL!

  • Dewi

    Actually got round to reading that survey that Mick links to (hmm)….Interesting stuff – 50% of respondents (people under 40) had been to the North…I wonder what % of Northerners have been to the South ?

  • Dewi

    “What is socialism anyway?”

    LOL – till the Twelfth ? This could last till christmas!!!

  • Mick Fealty

    Indeed Dewi. But before going there compare that figure with London (84%); Scotland (44%); and Wales (44%).

  • Greenflag

    dewi,

    ‘we need to keep this going to the 12th because we are thran.’

    I see you omitted the year in which the thran will end 🙂

    There is of course earthly thran and then there is the extra terresrial form as in the excerpt below from a Robert King SF novel ?

    The Thran were a utopian race of humanoids whose technology level was much more advanced than any other Dominarians.

    The Thran Empire, centered in their capital city of Halcyon, encompassed much of the main planet of the plane of Dominaria. Their culture was idyllic and pacific, and the Thran people lived very lush and comfortable lives. This all changed when a group of rebellious Untouchables, people who had been exiled from Halcyon to live and die in the Caves of the Damned, for one reason or another, attacked the city’s mana rig, or power source, effectively, situated in a volcanic crevice above the Caves of the Damned and below the City of Halcyon

    The Thran began to suffer from a disease known as Phthisis etc etc etc

    So there you have it Dewi – the solution

    Phthisis 🙂

  • Dewi

    I was actually pleasantly surprised. In the last 40 years you would not have gone there on holiday. Sport, for that market section, would be a reason I suppose.
    Would schools in the South have trips to the Giant’s Causeway ?

  • kensei

    willow

    You stick to your technicalities, then, Kensei!

    The rest of us will use appropriate and accurate language.

    I have no care what you call the republic but [sic]ing everyone else’s usage when it is perfectly fine is fucking annoying.

    Mick

    Indeed Dewi. But before going there compare that figure with London (84%); Scotland (44%); and Wales (44%).

    So slightly ahead of Scotland and Wales, and miles behind a major world city. Hell, I’ve been to London twice and never visited Munster. I’d wager there are probably another 6 counties people could name they haven’t been in too. It’s hardly startling, Mick. If we want to get people up here then we need something to attract then, and we’re light years behind of almost everywhere else when it comes to tourism.

    Another interesting little tit bit from that report that speaks of how we are seen:

    When asked to name regions of the UK, only 35% mentioned Northern
    Ireland spontaneously, which may indicate that many respondents don’t include Northern
    Ireland in their mental map of the UK.

  • consul

    Willow

    If you look back down the thread you will see that I have already stated why I believe that NI parties are emphatically socialist. You spoke of capitalist policies but as far I can see running to Uncle Gordy is the sum total of economic policy in NI (btw Peking thats what I mean by socialism, you know 70+% public sector that kind of thing) so if you want me to keep punching out the same argument willow post after post when it is you who is refusing to tell me why capitalism rules in NI, you won’t or can’t even offer a weak argument you just keep insisting they’re not socialist, they’re not socialist. Give me an incisive argument, blow me away; jaysus put up some sort of a show anyway. They say they’re socialist, they act socialist, the burden of proof is yours not mine.

  • A N Other

    WF,

    “Please do not deliberately misrepresent other posters.”

    Excuse me???

    I wasn’t referring to mis-representation of the wiki facts, Willowfield.

    Moreover, I was highlighting the bogus nature of your argument, which were based on the incorrect data.

    And your stubborn refusal thereafter, to admit you were wrong.

    But sure, don’t let that get in the way of having a pop at me!

    You’re well able to drop klangers without any help from me…

    Which brings me to my reason for posting:-

    This cuts to the core of the problem I have with your posts; the utter – & damn-right refusal – to accept or acqueisce to anyone else’s POV; even when your raison d’etré for arguing against same in the first place is proven to be groundless.

    And I think you know this.

    It also explains why other posters on here line-up to criticise your comments.

    i.e. in addition to myself, you managed to (try &) have the last word in one post against:-

    – Kensei;

    – Peking;

    – Consul

    ANO

    Aside:-

    I think Driftwood said it best – this thread is in ‘cul-de-sac’ territory; we could all benefit from debating a different topic.

  • Dewi

    Greenflag – thank you – funny.
    Mick – I’m not all surprised at Welsh and Scottish numbers – they are close, good holiday places, Celtic cousins and polite and charming people. Everyone goes to London at least once don’t they. I’m still a little puzzled at why the 50% is so high.

  • Greenflag

    An Ode to the Thran men 🙂

    You may have heard of Columbus sailing
    Across the Caribbean sea
    But he never tried to go arguing
    With the thran men from Donaghadee
    For they start in the morn bright and early
    And continue for most of the day
    And when night falls again in the evening
    They retire to rethran next day
    At morn it’s right back to the thraning
    At 10.00 they’ll stop for some tay
    At 11.00 thran men argue with passion
    That black is really dark grey .

    By 12 .00 they’ll argue with sadness
    That Norn Iron has’nt got oil
    By afternoon they’re at each other’s throats
    Over the price of a pint up in Moyle
    Now one will say Marty’s a saint
    And the other will state he’s a winner
    And neither at all will agree
    That oul Paisley’s ahead as the sinner .

    (with apologies to Percy French )

  • Dewi
  • Steve

    DEWI

    You and Bono have some nerve, everyone knows there was no famine and the english didnt allow the Irish to die like flies

    This forumn needs a sarcasm button

  • willowfield

    KENSEI

    I have no care what you call the republic but [sic]ing everyone else’s usage when it is perfectly fine is fucking annoying.

    If I’m quoting other people, I will indicate where they have used inappropriate language or spelling or grammatical errors, so as to demonstrate that such deficiencies are not mine. Whether or not you find it annoying is of no consequence to me.

    CONSUL

    If you look back down the thread you will see that I have already stated why I believe that NI parties are emphatically socialist.

    Because the SDLP has “social” in its title?!

    You spoke of capitalist policies but as far I can see running to Uncle Gordy is the sum total of economic policy in NI … so if you want me to keep punching out the same argument willow post after post when it is you who is refusing to tell me why capitalism rules in NI, you won’t or can’t even offer a weak argument you just keep insisting they’re not socialist, they’re not socialist.

    Uncle Gordy runs a capitalist economy.

    Give me an incisive argument, blow me away; jaysus put up some sort of a show anyway.

    You’re the one claiming they’re socialist, so the onus is on you to demonstrate how. Tell me when any major party from NI last argued for a socialist economy. Tell me why Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley welcomed the relocation of Dublin financial institutions into NI if they are socialists.

    They say they’re socialist, they act socialist, the burden of proof is yours not mine.

    PSF may claim to be socialist, but it doesn’t act socialist. SDLP neither claims to be, nor acts, socialist.

    A N OTHER

    I wasn’t referring to mis-representation of the wiki facts, Willowfield.

    So what were you referring to?

    Moreover, I was highlighting the bogus nature of your argument, which were [sic] based on the incorrect data.

    There is no “bogus nature” to any of my arguments and none is based on incorrect data.

    And your stubborn refusal thereafter, to admit you were wrong.

    I have admitted that I was wrong to use the Wiki figure. I’m unaware of being wrong about anything else, but you are welcome to point out any inaccuracies and – if you are correct – I will admit to being wrong.

  • Dewi

    Willow – any idea of a source for statistics on people visiting the South from the North? Can’t find nowt but swear I’ve read something somewhere.

  • A N Other

    My final post on this thread (before a self-inflicted razor-blade cut to the wrists is administered…)

    WF,

    Grammatical corrections & a failure to see the wood from the trees.

    => A complete failure to address the cut ‘n’
    thrust of my last post.

    Normal service resumed, so.

    What would I do without you…

    ** WARNING!! – the spelling & syntax of the above post has NOT been peer reviewed. Must do better next time!! **

  • willowfield

    I note your failure to back up your claims about bogus arguments being based on incorrect data, or anywhere that I have been wrong, other than the WIki figure.

  • consul

    >>Because the SDLP has “social” in its title?!< < Social and Labour. Still never mind. >>Uncle Gordy runs a capitalist economy.< < Uncle Gordy (Labour) the champions of patronage. Still whether the UK is capitalist or otherwise is hardly relevant. We're talking about the most peripheral region of the UK which is most certainly not capitalist. >>You’re the one claiming they’re socialist, so the onus is on you to demonstrate how.< < I've demonstrated, you have not and clearly are not going to reciprocate. >> Tell me when any major party from NI last argued for a socialist economy. < < Unionist parties have often pointed out the advantage of the British Exchequer when arguing for the union. >> Tell me why Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley welcomed the relocation of Dublin financial institutions into NI if they are socialists.< < M McG probably welcomes any interaction with the south. IP IIRC tried to rubbish talk of economic links with the south, Peter Robinson didn't want to become an "economic colony" but they went a bit quiet when business leaders in NI said they wanted a single economy. Now instead of "competing" with the Republic they've decided to work with it but it certainly isn't what they originally intended. >> PSF may claim to be socialist, but it doesn’t act socialist. SDLP neither claims to be, nor acts, socialist. << Yes they are and yes they do.

  • willowfield

    CONSUL

    Social and Labour.

    So you think having “social” and “labour” in a party’s title means that it must be socialist?

    Uncle Gordy (Labour) the champions of patronage. Still whether the UK is capitalist or otherwise is hardly relevant. We’re talking about the most peripheral region of the UK which is most certainly not capitalist.

    I’ve just looked out the window and seen lots of shops and other private businesses. That would suggest that we have a capitalist economy in Northern Ireland. Hell, I can even see banks.

    I’ve demonstrated

    Where?

    Unionist parties have often pointed out the advantage of the British Exchequer when arguing for the union.

    Indeed, but I asked you to point out when NI parties have argued for a socialist economy. Why didn’t you answer the question?

    M McG probably welcomes any interaction with the south.

    Maybe he does, but if he were a socialist why would he be welcoming capitalist financial institutions?

    Yes they are and yes they do.

    If that is your position, presumably you would be able to demonstrate how PSF and SDLP act as socialists. It is noteworthy that you have not done so.

  • consul

    Willow

    Your ‘debating’ on this topic lacks style and is completely devoid of substance. The NI economy is totally dependant on public money to stay afloat but lets ignore that inconvenient truth. I can’t be bothered with this anymore, sick of talking to a wall.

  • willowfield

    The NI economy is totally dependant on public money to stay afloat but lets ignore that inconvenient truth.

    I think it’s 67% dependent or something – but it’s a capitalist economy and all parties, including PSF and SDLP want to reduce that dependency.

    Do you understand what socialism means?

  • Dewi

    C’mon Willow – try and find me data on Northern visits to the South – I’m struggling.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Willow

    >>I note you ignore the Clearances! Rather disingenuous.<< You have taking playing the eedjit too far to be believable Willow. Considering that I have more than adequately dissected your argument and shown that you were wrong to claim that 1.7 million people emigrated due to the famine, thus showing that in effect the Irish famine was not unique on these islands. Everyone, including your good self knows I was not correcting you on your wiki figures, in fact this is the first time I have even mentioned wiki. Your holocaust denial type argument is wrong, regardless of wiki's influence. And if you ............."how so?", I swear I'll get so angry that I'll crush a grape. In essence I will not rehash my points any more, you have gained an unwarranted reputation, and I don't intend to feed your trollish behaviour any further, well not on this thread anyhow.

  • Dewi

    Anyway – my niece rung me with a joke:

    What’s orange and sounds like a parrot?

    A carrot

    Brilliant

  • willowfield

    DEWI

    C’mon Willow – try and find me data on Northern visits to the South – I’m struggling.

    Can I ask you why you’re asking me to do this?

    PRIONSA

    Considering that I have more than adequately dissected your argument and shown that you were wrong to claim that 1.7 million people emigrated due to the famine, thus showing that in effect the Irish famine was not unique on these islands. Everyone, including your good self knows I was not correcting you on your wiki figures, in fact this is the first time I have even mentioned wiki.

    You seem to have (deliberately?) misunderstood the point. It doesn’t matter whether 1.7m emigrated due to the famine, or whether “only” hundreds of thousands emigrated due to the Clearances. The point is there was severe economic hardship and suffering in Scotland, too. Just because it wasn’t on the same scale as in Ireland doesn’t mean that it wasn’t real and significant.

    Your holocaust denial type argument is wrong, regardless of wiki’s influence.

    I haven’t made any such argument. Please do not misrepresent other contributors.

  • Dewi

    Can I ask you why you’re asking me to do this?

    Cos I can’t blasted find any data – been digging all afternoon and night – and I swear I’ve read summat – frustrating – thought you might have a source.

  • willowfield

    Yeah, but why me?

  • dewi

    No partcular reason other than you like facts.

  • Greenflag

    Dewi,

    In the context of the numbers below the number from NI to the Republic is insignifcant . They may or may not be included in the 3.46 million from Britain.?

    Probably impossible to derive the number from the stats available . Many who live close to the border cross over to buy petrol and are back in NI in 10 minutes .

    Tourist report ITB

    In all, Ireland has received 9,919,900 visitors this year(2007) through the end of October, 4.0 percent more than last year’s record volume.

    The rise in U.S. visitors was particularly prized because Americans tend to stay longer, travel more widely and spend more money — despite the dollar’s exceptional weakness versus the euro.

    For the first 10 months of 2007, visitors from Britain were down 0.7 percent to 3.46 million. American travelers were up 0.8 percent to 952,500, an all-time high. Visitors from the rest of Europe surged 14.2 percent to 2.23 million, another record.

    The strong growth in continental European tourism has been driven by strong competition between Dew Ireland’s two major airlines, Aer Lingus and Ryanair, which have dramatically expanded direct links between Ireland and European destinations. It also reflects wider growth in tourist traffic within the 13-nation bloc that uses the euro currency.

    Brennan said his department planned to spend a record $73 million next year on marketing Ireland overseas as a tourist destination.

  • Dewi

    Thanks Green Flag – interesting. I know I’ve seen something specific however – I was astonished that figures were so low – I’ll have another forage……

  • Dewi

    Every possible fact but Tourism Ireland

  • Dewi

    I give up – strange – how about a survey on Slugger? How many people have been down South ? Obviously need a scientific sample of…..at least three people…

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    >>Yeah, but why me?
    Posted by willowfield on May 30, 2008 @ 10:22 AM
    #

    No partcular reason other than you like facts.
    Posted by dewi on May 30, 2008 @ 11:47 AM< < Well I would doubt the veracity of his facts. Indeed the veracity of his arguments, and as this thread has shown repeatedly................his honesty. Witness this exchange answering A N OTHER on the previous page @ 03:54 PM; >>A N OTHER………..I wasn’t referring to mis-representation of the wiki facts, Willowfield.

    willow……… So what were you referring to?< < LOL! He tells you right away what he is on about, you have even managed to quote him below. Really clever stuff! >>A N OTHER……………Moreover, I was highlighting the bogus nature of your argument, which were [sic] based on the incorrect data.

    There is no “bogus nature” to any of my arguments and none is based on incorrect data.< < Jesus, Mary and Joseph! This is about the only thing that you have been honest about, probably because you can't turn your dry monotonous questions on the data, and bore us to death demanding verification of points. Remember the incorrect data that you claimed from Wiki to support your nonsense that the famine really wasn't that bad because 1.7 million had to emigrate from the highlands due to a famine? That my friend is your bogus argument................CAPICE MALACA! >>The point is there was severe economic hardship and suffering in Scotland, too. Just because it wasn’t on the same scale as in Ireland doesn’t mean that it wasn’t real and significant.<< Listen you numptie, I have gone on about the clearances here for many a day. It is insulting to now find myself being accused of downplaying the highland clearances. However considering the nature of the person doing it, and the sad reasons why, it should really be no surprise. I note you have heavily downgraded your first claims, aimed at lessening the enormity of the Irish famine. Those principally responsible for the clearances did not deliberately allow people to starve, and indeed made some efforts, however haphazard and unwanted to at least try to ease the suffering due to their actions. Also during the famine in the highlands, the contrast between efforts here to feed the people and in Ireland could not be starker. PE - Your holocaust denial type argument is wrong, regardless of wiki’s influence. Willow - I haven’t made any such argument. Please do not misrepresent other contributors. If I were to try to use the attempted genocide of Bosnian Muslims in the 1990's, to compare with the Holocaust in a way that is aimed at saying, "hey the Jews and the Slavs and the Gypos etc. weren't the only ones hard done by, this is the kind of thing that goes on dont you know." That would be considered by any standards a holocaust denial argument. Thus your efforts to bring the highland famine into play that produced hunger, but little in the way of deaths has been shown to be totally bogus. I now note that you have downgraded your claims to the clearances causing economic suffering and hardship.................fine, in reality it caused a lot more than that in terms of killing a way of life etc. Hardly worth mentioning when discussing the enormity of the famine, different results. I'd say that on reflection you have scored an own goal, the way the Scottish famine was handled only serves to show up the poor efforts over the Irish famine. Well done Willow, frank Spencer rides again. I have explained myself fully on several occasions now. Your pathetic wriggling is best saved for another day, perhaps when you have something to wriggle over.