IMC Perspectives

RTE says the IMC report will show Provisional IRA link to Quinn murder – report UPDATE now No IRA leadership link to Quinn death(HT MM) with current or former members involved. BBC NI presents it differently “Group clears IRA of Quinn murder” with only former members involved UPDATE BBC report has been changed to “some members, or former IRA members”. If the PIRA had disbanded there would be few political ramifications for the process but it didn’t, so the DUP will have to do some thinking.

  • percy

    what a farce! a lawyers wet-dream of guilt/innocence.
    Reads like:
    1) Man stabbed with knife and dies.
    2) Man falls of knife and dies.

    Take your pick, in the pick’n’mix culture.
    What’s your fancy?

  • PeaceandJustice

    The BBC NI spin on the story just confirms the Sinn Fein PIRA influence within the BBC. You only have to look at how the BBC NI web site promotes the SF PIRA cultural agenda while ignoring the greater number of people in Northern Ireland.

    The RTE story helps expose the bias within BBC NI and correctly links the murder to Sinn Fein PIRA.

  • FD, I thought you might have produced another ‘narrative’, especially for Jeffrey’s benefit. Do you expect the DUP to provide further cover for the PRM’s ‘corporate wing’ ie the Army Council?

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘The RTE story helps expose the bias within BBC NI and correctly links the murder to Sinn Fein PIRA.’

    So the RTE slant has nothing to do with an Anti-Sinn Fein agenda in the southern media?

  • Hot Press: 18th IMC report

  • “We do not attribute the killing of Paul Quinn to PIRA and have therefore not classified it as paramilitary. We set out our reasons for this assessment in Section 4 below;”

  • 4.2 Within these constraints, our assessment of the incident is as follows:
    – We think that the attack on Paul Quinn was planned and carried out by
    local people and that it arose from local disputes. Whatever the
    immediate reason for the killing certain aspects of these disputes go back
    some time and were not unconnected with continuing illegal activity;
    – A number of people were involved in the incident although they did not all
    necessarily play a part in the actual killing. Amongst those involved were
    people who had in various ways been associated with the PIRA at a local
    level, including as members of the organisation. Some of these people
    were accustomed over a substantial period of time to exercising
    considerable local influence, collectively and individually. This would
    have led such people to expect what they would consider as appropriate
    respect from others and to being able to undertake their activities –
    including criminal ones – without interference; they would find it very
    difficult to accept any waning in this influence and respect;
    – The killing was clearly contrary to the instructions and strategy of the
    leadership of PIRA. It was also contrary to the interests of PIRA and to
    those of Sinn Féin. We are aware of no evidence linking the leadership
    of PIRA to the incident. In public statements and in debates in the Dáil
    and the Northern Ireland Assembly senior members of Sinn Féin have
    condemned the killing and have called on people to give any information
    they have to AGS and the PSNI.
    4.3 In Section 3 above we do not attribute the killing to PIRA10. This is for several
    reasons: the local and personal nature of its roots; the absence of indications
    either of organisational sanction or that it was in the interests of PIRA; and
    because it was contrary to the declared policy which PIRA has been following for
    over two years. We are reinforced in this view by the subsequent public remarks
    to which we refer above. The fact that some local members or former members or
    associates of the organisation were involved in the incident does not in our view
    justify attributing it to PIRA. In reaching this conclusion we are applying the
    standards we have consistently followed in respect of all kinds of paramilitary
    incidents, and to which we have referred in the past11.
    4.4 We recognise that the involvement of local members or former members or
    associates of the organisation in the way we have described is bound to raise
    questions about the level of control exercised by the leadership of PIRA. The
    PIRA leadership has had some difficulties in the past in exercising authority in
    South Armagh. Looking more widely in Ireland North and South we do not find
    evidence to suggest that this recent rejection of instructions is a general problem.

  • The IMC report saves the Chuckle Coalition’s bacon. I wonder how many porkies the IMC have swallowed in the process.

    “2.19 There is one further thing to which we wish to draw attention on this occasion. PIRA’s commitment to following the political path has been further reinforced in the period under review with a number of people making the transition to positions in Sinn Féin and thereby engagement in democratic politics. Since the time of its announcement nearly three years ago PIRA’s strategy has included the movement of members political life and we view these changes as important further evidence of the move to a peaceful and democratic role.”

    The British and Irish establishments embrace of the exponents of loyalist and republican fascism and mafiaism may offer a degree of protection to the rest of these two islands but IMO it’s bad news for democratic politics here and an insult to the victims.

  • warrenpoint

    The only question remains then is will the PIRA withdraw membership from its current members and pass their details to the PSNI?…..and who told Conor Murphy that IRA members were not involved?

  • fair_deal

    Nevin

    “I thought you might have produced another ‘narrative’, especially for Jeffrey’s benefit”

    Why would you assume the DUP or leading member would pay particular heed to anything I would suggest?

    “Do you expect the DUP to provide further cover for the PRM’s ‘corporate wing’ ie the Army Council?”

    I don’t know what they’ll do, although calling for it to go is hardly cover.

  • Mark McGregor

    Since you are doing update, RTÉ have changed their headline.

  • FD, so that earlier ‘narrative’ puff for the DUP fell on stony ground 😉

    Perhaps the DUP is speaking out of both sides of the mouth re. the PRM’s corporate wing. Line dancing bad; political dancing good.

  • “4.3 In Section 3 above we do not attribute the killing to PIRA10. This is for several
    reasons: the local and personal nature of its roots; the absence of indications
    either of organisational sanction or that it was in the interests of PIRA; and
    because it was contrary to the declared policy which PIRA has been following for
    over two years … The fact that some local members or former members or
    associates of the organisation were involved in the incident does not in our view
    justify attributing it to PIRA.”

    What a load of bollocks, particularly the last sentence. It ranks with Mo Mowlam’s notorious assessment of the Bennett murder. If the Quinn murder was committed by IRA members then it must stand as an IRA murder, pure and simple. This is a total whitewash and raises serious questions over the judgment and good faith of the IMC which seems determined not to be the people to torpedo the present corrupt political settlement.

    This ruling also gives the IRA the green light to continue with more killings, so long as it can cover its tracks.

    And now we await the DUPers’ reaction.

  • Since writing the above, I see Jim Allister has put out a statement which is similar to my comments. Although I didn’t plagiarise, honest. But he also repeats the words of Wee Jeffrey from last October:

    “I speak on behalf of my party. If the IRA is involved – whether it’s individuals or – and there was a gang involved here – if there were a number of IRA members involved in this murder then that’s the actions of the IRA. We are not here to dance around this issue”.

    Let’s see if Jeffrey dances.

  • Watchman, Gregory Campbell has been sent in to bat as night watchman. It seems there will be no, er, political repercussions ….

  • Steve

    Ifg the whole group is collectively responsable for the actions of a few “bad apples” when can we expect the arrest of all former ruc, b specials, rir’s

  • Just as well for Steve that there is no penalty for writing nonsense.

    As for the former hardline unionist Gregory Campbell, any whitewash the IMC can apply is dwarfed by the amount of the stuff from Londonderry. Perhaps he had a liberal chip fitted the time he was a guest at Parkhead.

  • fair_deal

    Nevin

    “FD, so that earlier ‘narrative’ puff for the DUP fell on stony ground”

    LOL I don’t know but was always working on the assumption that it would.

  • Steve

    Watchman
    Just as well for Steve that there is no penalty for writing nonsense

    Only too true most everybody on here would be in the box it there was

  • just asking

    I only occasionally comment on this site. In Toronto where I live 3 Canadian soldiers who were drunk beat to death a homeless man for no reason. Does this mean that our prime minister should resign? Or that the misnister of defense in charge of the armed forces is responsible for this terrible murder? Do off-duty British soldiers commit crimes, including murder–yes I thnk so, so should the Labour Party be kicked out of government and let the Tories and liberal democrats form a government? Just asking because some people think that Sinn Fein are responsible for each and every action of party members or IRA members and therefore should somehow be sanctioned. Say it aint so Pete–fair deal.

    just asking

  • Let’s hope other Canadians can discern the difference between lawfully constituted armed forces open to full public scrutiny and habitually acting within the law and a clandestine criminal conspiracy and terrorist grouping.

  • New Yorker

    Political expediency trumps truth for the IMC. It is a wonder that any accuracy, “current members”, was allowed to appear.

    The reaction of people will show if they have any moral character or acquiesce to this dishonesty.

  • Northsider

    So, the implication in all these posts is:

    The IMC link IRA or SF to crime, IMC is a rigorous, impartial body which is to be believed.

    The IMC find that there is no link between IRA and SF to a crime in a report which some on here were looking forward to as much as seven year does Christmas (and behaved just as maturely) – IMC bad and nothing more than a political tool.

    Sorry guys, can understand your bitter disappointment, but let it go and move on. You’ll sleep better.

  • Northsider, you might want to forget about the bleeding obvious but others of us won’t.

  • New Yorker

    Northsider

    The IMC said the provos committed the murder. They don’t leave any doubt about that. As to IRA “leadership” and SF involvement, that is where they go wishy-washy. There clearly were leaders involved although it is not clear what leaders. The report confirms some true facts but leaves many questions without answers. Until there are answers, the matter is open.

  • Steve

    Let’s hope other Canadians can discern the difference between lawfully constituted armed forces open to full public scrutiny and habitually acting within the law and a clandestine criminal conspiracy and terrorist grouping

    Watchman

    Even the dogs in the street know that from atleast 66 till 98 the armed forces of her majesty the ruc and any of the other quasi legal police forces in nIreland were both. Just because they wore uniforms didnt make them less clandestine or less the terrorists

  • Sorry Steve but your tediously repetitive Provo-speak postings mean that I really can’t be bothered replying to you.

  • “The IMC said the provos committed the murder. They don’t leave any doubt about that.”

    No they did not, why do you insist on telling lies?

  • Steve

    Ah yes Watchman try and dismiss the truth by claiming its not worth reponding too… how very unionist of you

  • New Yorker

    Chris Gaskin

    4.2 “Amongst those involved were people who had in various ways been associated with the PIRA at a local level, including as members of the organisation.”

    4.3 “The fact that some local members or former members or associates of the organisation were involved in the incident does not in our view justify attributing it to PIRA.”

    4.4 “We recognise that the involvement of local members or former members or associates of the organisation in the way we have described is bound to raise questions about the level of control exercised by the leadership of PIRA.”

    They clearly attribute it to local provos. Disprove that statement. What “organization” do you think they are referring to?

    Now that the facts are confirmed, the murderers and their conspirators must be brought to justice.

  • bound to raise questions about the level of control

    Adams as smacht?

  • Steve

    JO

    You libeled some one and wonder why he banned it?

    Get the medication checked because until at the very least they are named by the police or prosecutor naming them in public could be actionable and as a solicitor Chris would be particularily open to action

  • Northsider

    The reaction by some on Slugger to this is sooo interesting. The bitter, bitter disappointment that the IMC didn’t link this to the IRA is telling, that some have completely lost the run of themselves is a sight to behold.

    Let’s get one thing clear: the murder of Paul Quinn was a barbaric, heinous and totally disgusting crime.

    Those who carried it out are appallingly violent criminals who should be arrested and arraigned before the courts.

    That said, the attack of the vapours suffered by the likes of New Yorker et al is ludicrous. If they know more than the ploice then maybe they should contact the PSNI with whatever they might have.

    A word of caution before they do that: politically prejudiced, feverish conspiracy theories will never stand up in court.

    The IMC, who were the whiter-than-white scrupulous seekers of the uncomfortable truth in their eyes, up until today, will not accept such evidence in their deliberations either.

    Also, the republican movement most the be the most powerful political force in Europe given that they’ve not only managed to control this august body, but also the news media in Ireland (BBC, RTE and the rest)

    You’re embarrassing yourselves folks.

  • New Yorker

    Northsider

    If you read the report you will see the “appallingly violent criminals” are local provos. That part of the report is probably true. The exculpation of PIRA “leadership” is absurd and pure political expediency. It is pointed out and condemned, as it should be. Can you tell me how up to 20 people can plan and execute a murder without leadership? That is the effective leadership and they are provos even if the IMC prefers to think of elders in Belfast as the leadership.

    Do you condemn that part of the report or continue to believe that leaders who do not lead are the “leadership”?

  • Northsider

    New Yorker,

    I know about as much about that area as you do – zilch. The local police would know much more and they supplied the IMC with the information for this report. You’re all cut up that the big finger didn’t fall on Adams and McGuinness et al. It is a crushing disappointment for you, and in your gyrating, puce-faced rage you are lashing out everywhere and dredging up all sorts of ‘for instances’

    Listen mate, you get these disappointments in life, get used to them and overcome them, don’t start dancing and squealing just cos your beloved IMC let you down when you needed them most.

  • New Yorker

    Northsider

    I know the area, don’t be deceived by the handle. SF and the provos have prevented any local policing except their own. The kind that was meted out to Paul Quinn. Some in the area want to clear out this scum. I agree with them.

  • Northsider

    New Yorker,

    your previous posts suggest you know more than the local plod. As someone who is honest about what I know about said area, I’d be really interested to hear your in depth report on ‘what really happened’.

    If you’re worried about libel or prejudicing an investigation, use pseudonyms.

    I’m all ears, Sherlock…

  • complicated lies

    simple – yes
    truth – not so much

  • New Yorker

    You said

    “The IMC said the provos committed the murder. They don’t leave any doubt about that”

    The sections of the report you quote leave a lot of room for doubt.

    “Amongst those involved were people who had in various ways been associated with the PIRA at a local level, including as members of the organisation.”

    This looks at people who were once associated with the IRA. “as members” relates to the past not the present.

    “The fact that some local members or former members or associates of the organisation were involved in the incident does not in our view justify attributing it to PIRA.”

    Members OR former members OR associates of the organisation is so vague as to include most people in South Armagh.

    This does not mean IRA members, it’s not conclusive as you suggest.

    Do you not understand basic English? There is nothing here which leaves IRA involvement beyond doubt.

    Where is the quote which states

    “current members of the IRA were involved in the murder of Paul Quinn”

    That is a quote which would leave no doubt.

    You have no evidence whatsoever!

  • RepublicanStones

    it seems alot of people have been disappointed by the IMC report. They had their iclle knives sharpened, and were circling like a bunch of hyenas ready for the kill. unfortunately the bold bad bogeymen weren’t pulled from under the bed this time, so they’ll just assume it was them evil weevil bold boys anyway.
    i hope you will all then naturally assume that, every incident with even a hint of collusion involving the occupational crown forces can be considered as fact, and will proceed to say so with as much zeal as you have shown here.

  • Dave

    You’re mixing your metaphors there, RS. Hyenas don’t carry knifes. A better image would be ‘they circled the quivering deer (IRA) like snarling wolves, saliva dripping from their incisors.’

    On the other hand, I’m glad that you now accept the veracity of statements based on intelligence assessments and further accept the integrity of Her Majesty’s agencies. I’ll remind you of that next time you dispute those same British intelligence assessments that state that Gerry Adams was a member of the IRA, despite his “Honest I wasn’t, gov” denial.

    When you’re part of the British security establishment like Sinn Fein, the establishment will cover up any misdeeds that may rock it.

  • New Yorker

    Northsider

    Here’s what happened: There are a number of provos in South Armagh who are not answerable or controlled by anybody; they are autonomous. Paul Quinn did not show respect to the godfather. The provos decided to teach him a lesson which resulted in his death. The provos exercise considerable intimidation in the area, nobody wants to end up like Paul Quinn. So there have been no charges. Local SF, led my the area MP, have been deflecting blame from the provos, acting like their PR arm. It may take some time but many of them will be brought down, both the actual murderers and the conspirators. Lately some directly involved have, after many jars, been roaming around trying to find shoulders to cry on and things have been said. The pressure will continue to build and build.

  • New Yorker

    Chris Gaskin

    You say: “The sections of the report you quote leave a lot of room for doubt.” They do not leave doubt in the mind of a reasonable person.

    Once again you do not understand the difference between a court of law and the court of public opinion. A reasonable person concludes that local provos committed the murder and the IMC applied a poor excuse for a fig leaf.

    In the court of public opinion the provos did it and what the IMC calls the “leadership” is a puff of wind that does not know what’s going on in their “organization” or the “leadership” lied to the IMC.

    You can drop the ‘could be anybody’ defense. It should be altered to ‘could be any provo scum’for the sake of accuracy. Most people in the area are not provo scum and abhor them. Your day is coming sooner than you think.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘On the other hand, I’m glad that you now accept the veracity of statements based on intelligence assessments and further accept the integrity of Her Majesty’s agencies’

    You see Dave me ‘aul flower….heres the rub, the IMC doesn’t rely solely on HMG forces. Also yopu seem to be blissfully unaware of where the Paul Quinn murder took place. But hey, nobodies perfect eh?

  • Mayoman

    New Yorker: ” There are a number of provos in South Armagh who are ; they are autonomous. Paul Quinn did not show respect to the godfather.”

    Errrrr. “Autonomous”?? “not answerable or controlled by anybody”. Therefore NOT PIRA! You can’t have it both ways. You’ve settled your own argument.

  • Of course it wasn’t the IRA who killed Mr Quinn.

    Of course the IRA didn’t rob the Northern Bank.

    Of course Gerry and Martin are not top IRA men.

    Why do Republicans lie like other people breathe? Why do they do it when the rest of us know they’re doing it? Why do they take the rest of us for idiots? Are they genetically incapable of being honest and truthful?

  • Steve

    Watchman

    not lies but it should read

    Gerry was never an IRA man and Martin is a former member of the IRA

  • New Yorker

    From Henry McDonald today: “The Guardian has learned that the chief suspects in the fatal beating include a former employee of a Sinn Féin politician.”

    I wonder who that is? And I wonder who that SF politician could be?

  • Northsider

    Re Henry McDonald – note to all, please look up the word ‘former’ in a dictionary.

    I also note the straws are dwindling…

  • New Yorker

    Northsider

    NB #18 above: “Local SF, led my the area MP, have been deflecting blame from the provos, acting like their PR arm.”

    When did the employee become “former”?

  • Northsider

    From Henry McDonald today: “The Guardian has learned that the chief suspects in the fatal beating include a former employee of a Sinn Féin politician.”

    There you go, New Yorker. I know this is hard for you…

  • Dave

    It’s very easy to determine when an employee becomes a ‘former’ employee, since a P45 is issued by the employer which specifies the date.

    The category of ‘former’ and ‘current’ employee is a tad harder to establish in organised crime gangs which tend to eschew such formalities. However, when the ’employee’ is still actively engaged in the activities of the organised crime gang (such as beating to death those who do not comply with the demands of the gang), then it is reasonable to assume that the employee is a current employee and not a former employee of the organised crime gang. This why reasonable people do not ask the butcher behind the meat counter at Tesco, “Are you a former or current employee of Tesco Supermarkets?”

  • RepublicanStones

    admit it Dave…your a bit embarrassed with that last post.

  • Given the quantity and low quality of your spin, RepublicanStones, I think you’re the one who ought to have the red face – if you republicans do shame, that is.

  • RepublicanStones

    Given your unquestioning loyalty to a government that wants nowt to do with you, coupled with unionisms tendency to scream at facts, means it is most likely your face that is a touch rouge, or should that be orange !

  • New Yorker

    Northsider

    Was the former employee, suspected murderer, involved with former election activities of the party?

  • Northsider

    Northsider

    Was the former employee, suspected murderer, involved with former election activities of the party?

    And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

  • “And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?”

    There are no angels in the PRM, Northsider, and its ‘civic police’ doesn’t dance on pins but on its victims.

  • Northsider

    Nevin,

    tell me why the IMC report is so distressing to you and others. And please don’t go all Jesuitical on me. That was the point of my post.

    I respect your opinion on here above many others – so, please, let’s hear it.

  • Northsider, I was very hopeful when I read the IMC’s apparent committment to a ‘culture of lawfulness’ in its earlier reports but that hope has now largely evaporated.

    Here’s a repeat of an earlier post:

    “#

    “Anything which helps to create a culture of lawfulness and thereby weaken the hold of paramilitaries within communities is worth pursuing as part of an overall strategy to bring an end to paramilitarism.” .. IMC 7th report 2005

    “Since the time of its announcement nearly three years ago PIRA’s strategy has included the movement of members into political life and we view these changes as important further evidence of the move to a peaceful and democratic role.” .. IMC 18th report 2008

    From weakening the hold of paramilitaries to reinforcing it in three short years …

    What should we conclude from this shameful volte-face by the members of the IMC?
    Posted by Nevin on May 01, 2008 @ 08:03 PM

    I’m looking a little bit further ahead to 2016 and the ongoing narrowing of the gap between the Unionist and Nationalist share of the vote. History shows that intercommunal conflict is likely to arise any time the constitutional question comes to the fore. The 50%+1 option for change IMO is logical but is more likely to be a recipe for disaster.

    When you set the closure of police stations and a reduction in the budget for policing alongside the IMC’s ‘endorsement’ of fascism in its most recent report it’s difficult to envisage a comfortable future for Joe and Josey Public.

  • longlake

    northsider, chris and all the other provo apologists and wannabees.

    the imc report makes it very clear that the murderers at the least included current provos, some of them senior and used to expecting respect and permission to carry on their criminality. of course for you apologists these guys who became wealthy without ever working are saints in human disguise, the slab family never smuggled or laundered, men on the dole who buy farms of land and properties are just lucky according to your gospel. i am afraid the imc report is clear that the sth armagh ira killed Paul Quinn and have been ‘refusing instruction’ from their leadership for some time.
    last night the same ‘republican’ heros vandalised the poster of Paul Quinn recently erected in Cross, more ‘rejection’ of instruction or were they instructed to do so?

  • “the imc report makes it very clear that the murderers at the least included current provos, some of them senior and used to expecting respect and permission to carry on their criminality”

    It does no such thing, please quote the relevent sections you are relying on to make such claims.

    “i am afraid the imc report is clear that the sth armagh ira killed Paul Quinn”

    It makes no such claim

  • Siphonophore

    Chris Gaskin,

    don’t waste your breath. Just sit back and enjoy the stream of unionists embracing Sinn Feins position on the IMC. Let them make the case for themselves that the IMC is serving up the political result the IMC’s paymasters in London and Dublin want them to. Let them have at it, then when they’ve finished point out that if the IMC is doing it now then you cannot rule out that they’ve done in it in the past and they will have made the case that nothing the IMC has said is worth the paper it was printed on. That it was always a tool of London and Dublin, that it never was “independent” and that it was always a way to manipulate the situation. Or don’t even bother with that and as I said at the top, sit back, drink a good beer and enjoy the unionist show. I know I am 😀