“Some of these people were accustomed..”

With contrary reports of the IMC assessment of the murder of Paul Quinn it’s worthwhile looking at the actual 18th Independent Monitoring Commission’s Report Adds Another report here And NI Secretary of State, Shaun Woodward, MP, “welcomes latest assessment by IMC”

4.2 Within these constraints, our assessment of the incident is as follows:
– We think that the attack on Paul Quinn was planned and carried out by local people and that it arose from local disputes. Whatever the immediate reason for the killing certain aspects of these disputes go back some time and were not unconnected with continuing illegal activity;
A number of people were involved in the incident although they did not all necessarily play a part in the actual killing. Amongst those involved were people who had in various ways been associated with the PIRA at a local level, including as members of the organisation. Some of these people were accustomed over a substantial period of time to exercising considerable local influence, collectively and individually. This would have led such people to expect what they would consider as appropriate respect from others and to being able to undertake their activities –including criminal ones – without interference; they would find it very difficult to accept any waning in this influence and respect; [added emphasis]
– The killing was clearly contrary to the instructions and strategy of the leadership of PIRA. It was also contrary to the interests of PIRA and to those of Sinn Féin. We are aware of no evidence linking the leadership of PIRA to the incident. In public statements and in debates in the Dáil and the Northern Ireland Assembly senior members of Sinn Féin have condemned the killing and have called on people to give any information they have to AGS and the PSNI.

The IMC report goes on to say

4.3 In Section 3 above we do not attribute the killing to PIRA. This is for several reasons: the local and personal nature of its roots; the absence of indications either of organisational sanction or that it was in the interests of PIRA; and because it was contrary to the declared policy which PIRA has been following for over two years. We are reinforced in this view by the subsequent public remarks to which we refer above. The fact that some local members or former members or associates of the organisation were involved in the incident does not in our view justify attributing it to PIRA. In reaching this conclusion we are applying the standards we have consistently followed in respect of all kinds of paramilitary incidents, and to which we have referred in the past.

4.4 We recognise that the involvement of local members or former members or associates of the organisation in the way we have described is bound to raise questions about the level of control exercised by the leadership of PIRA. The PIRA leadership has had some difficulties in the past in exercising authority in South Armagh. Looking more widely in Ireland North and South we do not find evidence to suggest that this recent rejection of instructions is a general problem.

4.5 We wish to express our sympathy for the family and friends of Paul Quinn and our admiration for the courage they have shown in the face of this tragedy. We also applaud the way in which they have publicly opposed any suggestion of retaliation and have called on people to give any information to the police so that due process may be followed and justice may be done.

And in a footnote to the report

9 Apart from our own wish not to say anything which might result in guilty people escaping justice, we are formally required not to act in a prejudicial way. Article 13 of the International Agreement under which we are established says that “The Commission shall not do anything in carrying out its functions which might…have a prejudicial effect on any proceedings which have, or are likely to be, commenced in a court of law.” The same Article also obliges us to avoid saying anything which might “put at risk the safety or life of any person”.

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  • Flat Earter

    Total whitewash.

  • Little Eva

    Doesn’t really matter what the IMC says.
    The local BBC, no doubt “in the wider interests of the peace process”, are trumpeting that the IRA was not involved – that will be the gospel of this sordid episode.

  • overhere

    Any news on the McCord murder or the fate of the young girl from North Down ?

  • Tired

    But if the IMC has something different – would these two same posters be saying this was proof.

  • 3.10 They [IMC] reported that paramilitaries continued to exercise control over and exploit communities. The IMC said that their hold needed to be loosened in order to create a “culture of lawfulness” within which the normal democratic principles of law enforcement and human rights apply. SoS response to IMC’s 7th report [pdf file]

    We’ve seen a complete capitulation by the IMC, presumably under pressure from London and Dublin.

  • “Any news on the McCord murder ..”

    Overhere, IMO it all depends on who or what London and Dublin feel the need to protect.

  • “were not unconnected with continuing illegal activity”

    What do you make of this quote, Pete? Is the IMC implying that Quinn had been involved in criminal activities?

  • Northsider

    There is such a crushing sense of disappointment in Pete’s perplexed blogging on this issue. How many blogs on it since yesterday?

    A bias on this once excellent resource is so plainly showing.

  • TAFKABO

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

  • IRA men ‘beat our son to death’

    Sinn Fein MP Conor Murphy has said he does not believe there was any republican involvement in the death of a man in County Monaghan.

    The family of Cullyhanna man Paul Quinn, 21, said their son was abducted and beaten by the IRA because he refused to leave the country.

  • get real

    I am disgusted that the peace process is to be kept on track at any cost. I sat in Stormont with Paul’s family the day it was debated and was embarrassed for Sinn Fein MLAs sat in the chamber. As for conor Murphy why has no one pursued the fact he spoke to members of the IRA and announced they weren’t involved. As Sinn Fein has signed up for policing surely that was the job of the PSNI. His walking out of the chamber during the debate on paul’s death was a disgrace.

  • Pete Baker

    Nevin

    You’d have to ask them.

    But, IMHO, it’s a key line in the assessment and “their activities” refers to the “people [who] were accustomed over a substantial period of time to exercising considerable local influence, collectively and individually.”.

    As the IMC assessment says

    “This would have led such people to expect what they would consider as appropriate respect from others and to being able to undertake their activities – including criminal ones – without interference; they would find it difficult to accept any waning in this influence and respect.”

    The IMC assessment, which implies Paul Quinn was targeted because he didn’t show “appropriate respect” to “such people”, chimes with the family’s account.

  • Steve

    Maybe its time the IRA trotted out the “FEW BAD APPLES” arguement so favoured by unionists when discussing the RUC

  • Flat Earter

    Steve,
    Or pro-IRA in government Unionists.

  • Steve

    I never heard of a pro-IRA unionist, must be a rare beast indeed Flat Earter

  • Flat Earter

    Steve,
    Take a look at the DUP website. Campbell’s statment is a perfect example.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    “The fact that some local members or former members or associates of the organisation were involved in the incident does not in our view justify attributing it to PIRA.”

    The report is concluding that is does not know if the IRA members were involved – it neither backs up Conor Murphy’s or the family’s assertions.

    Based on the local reports the family’s side of events looks the more believable to me – and I say that as someone who would have liked to believe the opposite.

  • steve48

    Conor “I have been through the minutes of the IRA council meetings and it doesn’t mention this at all, they can’t have been involved”

    Jeffrey “Obviously a simple mis-understanding Conor won’t happen again”

    Conor “Course it won’t Jeffrey”

  • Dewi

    “Members of CIRA were involved in assaults. Members were engaged in a variety of
    serious crimes North and South including drug dealing, extortion, robbery, brothel
    keeping, smuggling and fuel laundering.”

    That “brothel keeping” a new phenomenon ?

  • Rory

    That “brothel keeping” a new phenomenon ?

    This is easily explained, Dewi. The Continuity spokesman, who normally only speaks as gaelige, thought that a brothel was a soup kitchen dispensing nourishing broth to the needy.

  • imc-loco-motive

    Translating politics :

    ” In reaching this conclusion we are applying the standards we have consistently followed in respect of all kinds of paramilitary incidents, and to which we have referred in the past.”

    – “We recognise this as a galling fudge and are motivated as such to protest our respectability”

    The IMC does not seem to wish to address the very real fact that this murder is a useful statement for the whole organisation. What can be sold as peripheral violence to outsiders will ring a different tune to insiders, and this is something the IRA know how to profit from in re-affirming the need for obedience and respect from the locals in its areas of authority. It is also not discussed, if this was a crime, and recognised as such by the IRA, where is the help for prosecution, and evidence giving ? Indeed why was so much of the IRA apparatus in SA deployed to prevent just that, why have the top table not assisted the garda and the PSNI in standing down a ‘rogue unit’ ?. The absence of cooperation with the police from the higher end of the IRA is an act of duplicity entailing the interests listed above, and a sense of fraternity that is surely complicit in criminality and worthy of more serious chastisment.
    it really is disgusting.

    Perverse equivalence as a means of mitigation by the 3rd comment in ? lads, is this a record ?

    Also on our friends at the beeb, yes they have chimed in with the authoritative statement that ‘sinn fein have said that the IRA did not do this murder and that they condemn it’, but we all know that the press realises of sinn fein and the bbc’s investigations are often the same thing, and that this bias is a form of media corruption, particularly distasteful given the players involved, but what really gets me is the photo of the Quinn boy selected by the f**kers. The relationship between the story and the pictures is of massive importance in opinion forming, with cute kids in horrible situations being used to shift units via the elicitation of sympathy. What is that photo of that poor kid looking like Superspide supposed to do ?

  • The Raven

    “Some of these people were accustomed over a substantial period of time to exercising considerable local influence, collectively and individually. This would have led such people to expect what they would consider as appropriate respect from others and to being able to undertake their activities –including criminal ones – without interference; they would find it very difficult to accept any waning in this influence and respect”

    Influence and respect. What? Like “some day you will be called upon to do your Godfather a great service”? That kind of respect?

    I think there are some communities that need to take a long hard look at themselves.

  • Little Eva

    imc-loco-motive
    Damn fine points you make there, particularly on the message this sends both to local communities and their “protectors”.
    The photo thing struck me from the beginning of this as well.

  • “Anything which helps to create a culture of lawfulness and thereby weaken the hold of paramilitaries within communities is worth pursuing as part of an overall strategy to bring an end to paramilitarism.” .. IMC 7th report 2005

    “Since the time of its announcement nearly three years ago PIRA’s strategy has included the movement of members into political life and we view these changes as important further evidence of the move to a peaceful and democratic role.” .. IMC 18th report 2008

    From weakening the hold of paramilitaries to reinforcing it in three short years …

    What should we conclude from this shameful volte-face by the members of the IMC?

  • I think that it’s a very cynical IMC report which dismisses evidence such as the hastily arrived at statements from Conor Murphy and Gerry Adams, pointing the finger of blame quickly towards Paul Quinn himself, a man who they said was a criminal who had fallen out with other criminals.

    The haste suggests to any reasonable person that they knew in advance of the murder, suggesting in turn that it was authorised at senior levels.

  • Steve

    The evidencve is getting thinner all the time

    Now its because they didnt take 2 weeks of committee meetings to cobble an answer is the ultimate proof they did it?

    John stick to religion atleast youre an amusing wing nut off on your rants

  • QUINN SUPPORT GROUP WELCOMES IMC REPORT

    The IMC has clearly identified the key to the murder, which is the lack of deference and respect shown to self-appointed heroes by young people in South Armagh. The gang that battered Paul to death told him: ‘Now you know who is boss around here’. These were the people the IMC identifies as enjoying considerable local influence by membership of the Provos and expecting to be able to carry on criminal activities without interference and indeed to be admired for it. Paul would not bend the knee so they killed him.

    The IMC points out that the killing was contrary to the interests of the Provisional IRA and Sinn Fein. Indeed it was, but the negative impact has been greatly increased by their actions since the murder. Sinn Fein in general and Conor Murphy in particular attacked the victim and his family before his body was cold.”

    Paul Quinn’s parents, Stephen and Briege, believe that the IMC statement vindicates their claim that Paul was murdered by the sth Armagh Provos and call on the leadership of that movement to isolate the murderers in their ranks, “the ones rejecting instruction” to quote the IMC. And the say that “real peace in this area cannot exist while these murderers walk our streets and roads.”

  • Northsider

    Also on our friends at the beeb, yes they have chimed in with the authoritative statement that ‘sinn fein have said that the IRA did not do this murder and that they condemn it’, but we all know that the press realises of sinn fein and the bbc’s investigations are often the same thing, and that this bias is a form of media corruption, particularly distasteful given the players involved, but what really gets me is the photo of the Quinn boy selected by the f**kers. The relationship between the story and the pictures is of massive importance in opinion forming, with cute kids in horrible situations being used to shift units via the elicitation of sympathy. What is that photo of that poor kid looking like Superspide supposed to do ?

    In all my years commenting on this website, the above has to be the most insane, bonkers and most detached from reality posting I have ever, ever come across and that is really saying something.

    To say that the BBC have chimed in on the “authoritative statement” is incredible: what is a news organistion to do, ignore the “authoritative statement” and run an interpreation which fits in with your preferred outcome – and what then would be the response of those who trust the BBC to play it straight?

    You want them to be biased in favour of your demented position – and criticise them for being fair.

    Next, and this is the most obnoxious part, you say that the photograph they use in some way portrays Paul Quinn as a spide. Duh… what do you want? A photograph of him helping an old lady across the road, maybe one of him helping a child down a slide… This photograph has probably been released by the family – see that’s how the media work, the hack has to go to the family, and it is sometimes a very uncomfortable thing to do, and ask for photo of the deseased. Happened all the way through the troubles – it was one of the worst jobs a journo had to do.

    They, in all likelihood, supplied that photo.

    So, to follow your logic, the family supplied a photo their son – and you, now, are saying he looks like a spide.

    I’m sure they will take great comfort from that.

    Your entire post confirms two things about you:

    1. You want the media to be wilfully biased to dovetail with your own political outlook – to the extent of going against “authoritative statements” – just so long as it fits with your jaundiced political outlook.

    2. You believe Paul Quinn, in the photo, most likely released by his family, looks like a spide/chav whatever.

    That is blatantly clear from your own words. You stand condemned by them.

    Shame on you.

  • Northsider

    Little Eva,

    the response above applies to you too. Now we are getting to the core of some people’s ‘sympathy’ for the Quinn family. They think their son looks like a spide.

  • Steve

    What’s it like being so callous and shallow? Are you really happy?

    The reality is that Sinn Fein support is heavily infested by likely lads and cute hoors like you? I bet mammy’s not proud of you.

  • Jericho

    Paul Quinn was involved in smuggling, a burnt out lorry full of smuuggled deisel was driven by him weeks before his murder. He was murdered by criminals involved in the same smuggling racket. His family are being used by the SDLP and dissafected ex-republicans and local criminals to attack Sinn Fein. Locally people know the truth and the SDLP in particular should be ashamed of themselves for abusing this family in a vain attempt at political gain.

  • latcheeco

    Jericho, what constitutes a “dissafected ex-republican?”

  • Steve

    lol John

    How am I being callous and shallow, speaking the truth?

    And yes Mommy is very proud of her wee boy.

    Not Irish by the way or a member of the IRA. I just don’t believe the hype. If you produce some credible evidence on here and I will gladly condemn them corporately or individually.

    the only evidence thats been produced so far is

    The family said so
    they used to do it
    Them that did were prepared
    And its South Armagh after all

    Not compelling or indeed evidence

  • Steve

    There are none so blind as those who do not want to see.

    If you are not Irish, you don’t understand the subtleties of this debate and should have the decency to keep your mouth shut.

    The reality is that the IMC have said that the IRA killed Paul Quinn, but that it wasn’t in their interests to do so. So they have a cop out that lets Sinn Fein off the hook because it is the “appalling vista” again of the collapse of the Stormont Government if they admit the truth.

  • Gregory

    “What? Like “some day you will be called upon to do your Godfather a great service”? That kind of respect? ”

    Like help him run a strip club,

    it ain’t the old days, the Mafia and the IRA have that in common.

    G.

  • Damian O’Loan

    Nevin,

    For me the significance of the “not unconnected” quote is that it is revelatory as to the nature of the report. They aren’t writing fiction, so why the double negative? Either it should have said ‘was connected’ or it shouldn’t have been included. It is irresponsible to include it without the nature of the connection – how did it come to be established? Was he coerced?

    I would again caution those who, legitimately seeking to defend their party of choice, are resorting to the argument that:

    1. There has been no conviction, no trial, therefore no evidence and no link, because

    2. The words and actions of the British political system and judiciary are to be trusted 100%. Not to mention any possible input from Dublin.

    Because there are some very important crimes which remain to be solved, and the pursuit of justice by many victims would be undermined by such an unquestioning acceptance.

  • get real
  • Steve

    John there is no need for subtelty in this debate

    And you read that report exactly wrong, it quite clearly states that the IRA did not kill Paul Quinn

  • Red Diesel

    BBC Home Affairs Correspondent Vincent Kearney came under some flak from other hacks at the IMC press conference for his ‘exonerates the IRA’ line ahead of the report’s publication. He talked about getting a ‘briefing’, but Alderdyce was at great pains to point out the IMC had not briefed ahead. According to the other hacks the briefing came from the NIO on the basis of Woodward’s advance copy and the Commissioners were quite pissed off. The report explains why it cannot be attributed to the IRA since the Army Council had clearly forbidden such actions and it was clearly not in the interests of the IRA or Sinn Fein, and there is a problem of disobedience in South Armagh. There’s the nub. Even the waffle about former/current/local members is not that relevant. The dispute was local in origin but the killing was not quite so. Even if none of the people who beat and killed Paul Quinn was a current volunteer in good standing, the real issue is that they had access to IRA structures, personnel and logistics including forensic expertise. It didn’t go to Army Council level but it did go to South Armagh Command Staff level, which is a very significant level indeed. The IMC is quite well aware of this distinction and decided not to pursue it for what can only be political reasons. South Armagh Command Staff includes people who are close – by both blood and daily proximity – to leading people in Sinn Fein and also includes one Army Council member. Opinion differs on whether Commmand Staff personnel were inside the shed at Oram but they were certainly involved in the transport arrangements.

  • IMC-LOCO-MOTIVE

    Hello Northsider :>,

    The most bonkers ? It’s to your credit that you supply this poor madman with such an elaborate refutation, most people cannot engage the unhinged man, because they cannot deduce the substance of his statements.

    You are to be commended again for your empathy with the broadcaster, and indeed “What IS a news organisation to do ?” One of the things I feel is incumbent on the media, and in particular a publicly owned media, is proper investigation, scrutiny and due scepticism in dealing with establishments, and as such, the statements of interested and partial parties should be contextualised and their presentation should take into regard their interest and form, in this specific instance Sinn Fein relationship with those responsible, its approval, support and co-conspiracy in their authority, and its clear (and stated) imperative not to compromise its associates. The absence of scrutiny gives undue authority to a subject of the report, an authority Sinn Fein have abused disgracefully in their statements about this young man, and offers then an unethical advantage to the party.

    (As an aside, Now that the IMC have declared that IRA men were responsible, and the IRA have declared these actions were criminal, have Republicans conceded the dishonesty of the special status protests in admitting that Republicans are criminals ?)

    In your intermediate complaint you deliver the damning appraisal, “You want them to be biased in favour of your demented position – and criticise them for being fair”, now, while I respect your position in feeling that I am ‘demented’, I must draw to your attention that I did not declare a position, I offered a criticism. and that criticism was that they were being unfair, and, unfortunately, any attempt be sensibly refute my post, without the acceptance it’s actual parameters, is, well, perhaps bonkers ?

    – “Next, and this is the most obnoxious part” –

    I do indeed content that the the photo is an unfortunate one of the late Mr. Quinn, and allow me to reaffirm that position,

    The objectionable grimace, the absence of a smile and even the lads posture render this an unfortunate picture, in which he appears surly and aggressive. you and others may feel that he was and the BBC do you a service, this surely renders your intermediate criticism of me contemptible. I believe it is a statement of fact that the images that accompany stories are highly relevant to opinion forming in readers, and image selection is a conscious act by the publisher, now whilst you could contend that some of the odd examples you give could hamper fairness in the converse direction (presumably to those who practise cruel and unusual punishment), it is I believe standard (and legislated) practise to portray victims in, at least, a non offensive light, and could the beeb, in their simpering acceptance of the scandalous and defamatory statements produced by Sinn Fein, and their repetitive use of this picture, be said to have done this ?

    You also seem to have taken the strange notion that only Mr. Quinn’s parents ever took pictures of him. This is bonkers. In the age of the micro digital camera, mobile phone cams and a seemingly defamatory agenda on the part of the authorities in his local area, it seems to me a Duh-headed position to infer that the sole owners of a picture that would be offered to the public domain of the young man were his parents, and, given my feelings on the unfortunate nature of the photo, it is natural for me to make the conjecture that this would be a most unusual picture for a grieving mother, who will have pictures of him with his granny and in his Sunday suit and with rosy cheeks and a big smile to offer the jurnos. Indeed in the beginning there was a rather more favourable picture of the boy, however the ‘grimace’ shot has become, it seems, policy.

    Let me say also that the kid would probably have looked like a spide all the time, this is no bad thing most young guys are spides in Ireland, It that he looks like an aggressive and nasty spide in the photo, it is from this apparent nastiness that people, to whom a respected political party has made suggestions, could draw inference.

    May I ask, in what way can a ‘political outlook’ (which I did not elaborate) be described as jaundiced ?

    I feel, friend, that you are rather used to computing the relevance of conversation, without giving it due attention, with stock positions that you assume are axiomatic, and that, thusly, your arguments revert to a sort of opportunistic advocacy almost immediately, it is from your own position, that your are jealous for the media to perform in a fashion that you find agreeable, that you draw these otherwise unfounded opinions on myself.

    “that is blatantly clear from your own words.”

  • loco

    whether you stand condemned or should feel any shame, I could not care less.

    But thank you for responding to me and indeed my friend in madness Eva.

    (Hello Eva)

    on the actual issue, it is no surprise that a government who accepts violence as a legitimate bargaining tool should see certain incidents of violence as not detrimental to their broader objectives and continuing associations

  • Northsider

    IMC-LOCO-MOTIVE

    Your chastened tone is noted.

    Your comments on the use of the photo are still insane.

    The BBC News website is NOT NOT NOT the place for scrutiny and due scepticism of government statements, that is for CA investigation programmes such as Spotlight and Panorama.

    And finally, I offer, for the amusement of fellow forummers this:

    I feel, friend, that you are rather used to computing the relevance of conversation, without giving it due attention, with stock positions that you assume are axiomatic, and that, thusly, your arguments revert to a sort of opportunistic advocacy almost immediately, it is from your own position, that your are jealous for the media to perform in a fashion that you find agreeable, that you draw these otherwise unfounded opinions on myself.

    Hilarious, it’s like you swallowed a dictionary and then tried to vomit it back up again.

    Try again – is it something to do with me wanting the media to report only what I want to hear?

    Is that it?

  • Steve

    IMC-LOCO-MOTIVE

    (As an aside, Now that the IMC have declared that IRA men were responsible

    Loco where does the IMC declare that? Certainly not in the report as published

  • loco

    Well hello again Buddy :>

    I think you need a dictionary, it was a chastising tone, not a chastened one. – I would feel more chastened, perhaps, if your criticisms were not diminishing and becoming more and more reliant on declamation with every passing comment.

    “The BBC News website is NOT NOT NOT the place for scrutiny and due scepticism of government statements, that is for CA investigation programmes such as Spotlight and Panorama”

    I am surprised that, although you correctly recognise Sinn Fein’s statements as that of a branch of the British government, that you do not find the lack of analysis for these incredible and scandalous phrases conspicuous on what is after all your public broadcaster.

    On what grounds do you think that basic, or elaborate, analysis is the the sole property of specialist current affairs programs ?

    I think you mean detailed analysis and opinion, although this is a typical format for current afairs (cynics would see the later as preeminent on such shows), it does not establish analysis as the exclusive responsibility for suxch programs, the suggestion that it does is Insane Northsider my boy.

    Analysis is a basic duty of all news outlets. The reporting and investigation of news falls within the profession of journalism – the professional requirements in the UK & Ireland of journalism dictate largely what I outline above with regard to the qualification of statements from interested parties

    analysis must begin, if one is to be credible and immune from charges of distortion, the minute you reference the statements of your subject,

    (I personally got the impression that the BBC handled SF’s statement as conclusionary rather than a subject for scrutiny and contextualisation. It was used as the end of a paragraph, rather than a beginning, you see.)

    Lack of analysis when referencing an interested party is a failure in upholding journalistic standards regardless of the media employed.

    “it’s like you swallowed a dictionary” This was almost a clever dig at my writing style, until you confessed that you understood it perfectly and indeed were moved enough to react to it. oops!

    Steve, I know you love the provies more than your mum, but really “Amongst those involved were…..members of the organisation”

    Thats it for me lads, my complaint is here and clear. Have a great holiday and do spare a thought for those your favourite party’s friends and relatives put beyond enjoying it.

  • Steve

    It does not say that

    it says

    Amongst those involved were people who had in various ways been associated with the PIRA at a local level

    Notice the word HAD its past tense as in former, previous non current

  • New Yorker

    Red Diesel

    Good post. It illustrates the dishonesty of the IMC report on “leadership”. The people who approved this operation were clearly “leadership”. But the IMC report ignores this effective “leadership” and prefers a Belfast “leadership” who if fact are not leaders. It’s the effective “leadership” that gets you dead and that is what the IMC should have addressed but instead posit an almost mythical “leadership”. That was dishonest and only contributes to the continuance of organized murder.

  • Northsider

    loco – as in going loco down in acapulco – has it come to this?

    You’re taking your ball and going home. Aaaah.

    You haven’t answered or rebutted any of my points. Instead you’ve employed the rhetorical strategy of a failed law school student and lost yourself in a miasma of strangled grammar and anachronistic vocabulary.

    I have some advice for you; spend less time in the law library, and more in sessions.

    Your fifteen minutes of fame on Slugger has been most enlightening, and I note your fellow crank Little Eva has not had the courage to ride into battle on your behalf.

    As for the processed meat of your comment – oh, what a sorry pass we’ve come to – let’s remind Sluggerites of the core of your rebuttal:

    I am surprised that, although you correctly recognise Sinn Fein’s statements as that of a branch of the British government, that you do not find the lack of analysis for these incredible and scandalous phrases conspicuous on what is after all your public broadcaster.

    So, in effect, when the BBC’s report chimes with what SF says (as you curiously make out, although I can’t see it in this case) – they are wrong and the BBC News website should depart from impartial reporting and suddenly and without warning a) publish a subjective (and by that, I mean one that dovetails with your preferred outcome) version of the IMC report and b) badger and pester the Quinn family for another photograph of their deceased son as the one they supplied, according to you, makes him look too much like a spide and you’d rather he looked a little more photogenic, innocent and caring to fit your own crank agenda.

    We are damned by our own words – and you are so patently damned by the idiotic rubbish you’ve posted on here.

    But hey, at least you made it entertaining with your sub-par, I-could-be-a-lawyer-you-know-when-I-grow-up discourse and you’ve shone a penetrating light onto the motivation of the rest of pack on Slugger who are now lost in paroxysms of anxiety because their favourite quango in the whole wide world has suddenly farted in their face.

    I haven’t posted on Slugger in a long while, but thanks to you, I’m so glad you provided the open goal for my penalty kick.

    It’s sad that you feel the need to depart from here, but please, reconsider – you’re fun to debate with.

    Most revealing about certain mindsets, m’lud.

    Take him down….

  • Brian Boru

    So the leadership were not involved. Presumably this also means the local leadership. As such this murder was carried out by individuals and SF is not accountable for that.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Brian Boru,

    did the boy Conor not suggest that there were no republicans involved ? that statement would be reasonably interpeted as “no members” were involved – this report does not establish this either way.

  • Steve

    IWSMWDI
    did the boy Conor not suggest that there were no republicans involved ? that statement would be reasonably interpeted as “no members” were involved – this report does not establish this either way

    Connor of course would have no way to determine if no individual IRA members were involved unless he was in possesion of all the facts including names of those involved. The most he would be able to do and presumably has is be informed that the organization was not involved.

    Unfortunately when you remove the control structures things tend to get out of control.

    I seriously wonder when the first reports of former IRA and or UVF/UDA/LVF teaming up to commit crimes will appear. All paramilitaries were criminal enterprises and its only a matter of time till they figure out if they work together then they can move freely through both communities at the same time.

    And lets face it, we know if they don’t, that the loyalist paramilitaries fake war is over

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Steve,

    “Connor of course would have no way to determine if no individual IRA members were involved unless he was in possesion of all the facts including names of those involved”

    You may be right about what Conor might know but common sense suggests that SF would have a very good understanding of what happens on the ground in South Armagh as they would have had a network of people passing information to them over many years.

    But Conor cetainly by his words appeared to rule out IRA members being involved so he is suggesting he does have this information.

    Most people, without a political axe to grind, see his comments chiefly as an attempt at damage limitation for his party.

  • Steve

    Sammy What

    I respectfully disagree and suggest that the only ones who know who was involved are those that were involved. Usually by now the idiots involved have started talking up their involvement and loose tongues would be flapping all over the place and maybe they are?

    But I don’t see involvement in this murder playing well anywhere and I bet those involved are very scared of their involvement being exposed.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Steve,

    “only ones who know who was involved are those that were involved”

    If so what the feck was Conor on about when he said republicans were not involved. If he meant the leadership didn’t sanction it then he would have said exactly that.

    What ever may be said about SF leadership we know for certain that every word is choosen very, very carefully.

  • Steve

    Sammy What

    I think it falls under the theory that when these people did this they werent being republicans but straight criminals, to them a difference to you not so much.

    And of course they choose every word carefully because every word they issue is taken and twisted into what ever their opponent want it to mean with out actually bothering with what it really says

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Steve,

    that’s a bit of dancing on the head of the republican pin ( appropriate as we are discussing provisionals).

    If Conor meant as you say he meant then he would have said it – as we agree the words were very carefully chosen – in this instance the only twisting of words is coming from those not taking those words at face value.

  • Steve

    But its you not taking words at face value or atleast IMHO I guess we just differ at what the face value of those words are

    Might be down to differences in the way language is used there and here in Canada

    As an example I once told one of your wee Irish girlies she was a sight for sore eyes and she got really angry. To me it meant I was well pleased to see her but she took it as meaning she made my eyes sore