“current and former members of the IRA..”

The Independent Monitoring Commission’s 18th report is with the UK and Irish governments and is due to be published tomorrow. The Irish Times reports [subs req] that they are “expected to publicly state that the IRA leadership did not sanction the murder of Paul Quinn from Cullyhanna in south Armagh last October.” There’s a short report here. The reports also note that

The IMC, however, will state that current and former members of the IRA from the south Armagh area were involved in the beating to death of Mr Quinn in farm buildings in Co Monaghan after he was lured over the Border, it is understood.

This finding contradicts the assertion by Sinn Féin leaders such as Gerry Adams and Newry and Armagh MP and Northern Executive Minister Conor Murphy that the IRA was not involved.

Those previous assertions can be found in the Slugger archive.Here’s the Northern Ireland Executive’s Regional Development Minister, Sinn Féin’s Conor Murphy, speaking to BBC Newsnight’s Liz McKean in November 2007

“I have spoken to the IRA in his area and I am satisfied with the assurances they gave me, very solid assurances, that they weren’t involved in his death,” [Conor Murphy] says.

And, as noted here, Gerry Adams on 22 October 2007

“I do not believe that there was any republican involvement in this murder.”

Also from Gerry Adams on Talkback on the same date

Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams, on Radio Ulster’s TalkBack today stated

“It will not emerge that the IRA was involved.”

Asked earlier in the interview why he was so certain that no republicans were involved “in any way whatsoever” he replied

“I have talked to one or two people in the area.”

Indeed..

Once again then, “It’s far better people tell the truth on the thing..”

Of course, that requires some clarity of vision..

And, as has been mentioned in connection to another recent event – “Justice is the glue that holds society together.”

, , , , ,

  • … the assertion by Sinn Féin leaders such as Gerry Adams and Newry and Armagh MP and Northern Executive Minister Conor Murphy that the IRA was not involved.

    They clearly meant the IRA as a corporate body, a fact that the IMC is now confirming. They could not have been referring to the identities of the attackers, as knowledge of them would imply withholding information from the police.

  • Bigger Picture

    Well well well could be an interesting couple of days

  • Is a statement expected from the DUP’s Jeffrey Donaldson?

  • Dave

    Yes, Nevin, it is expected to say, “See, I told you they weren’t corporately involved.”

    This gives a licence to the IRA to do whatever they wish without any repercussions for Sinn Fein. Since the Army Council will never release a signed confession to its involvement in any crimes, and there is no other means of proving it, it can now be claimed that the IRA consist solely of the five members of its (immaculately behaved) Army Council.

  • The following statement has ‘disappeared’ from Jeffrey’s website but I located it in the cache:

    BROWN CONFIRMS WRONGDOERS WILL PAY FOR ANY DEFAULT

    DUP Member of Parliament for Lagan Valley, Jeffrey Donaldson has received an assurance from the Prime Minister Gordon Brown that any party found to be in default of their obligations to support the rule of law will be sanctioned by the Government. Mr. Donaldson asked the Prime Minister about the matter, in the context of the Paul Quinn murder at Prime Minister’s Question Time today. Speaking afterwards Jeffrey Donaldson MP said:

    “I welcome the Prime Minister’s confirmation in the House of Commons today that the position of the Government is that any Northern Ireland party found to be in default of commitments to support the rule of law will be sanctioned. This is a significant statement from the Prime Minister. In the past, when Sinn Fein were found to have defaulted on obligations everyone in Northern Ireland was punished, through the suspension of the Stormont Executive. This was unacceptable. Why should the democrats in the Province be punished because others refuse to abide by the rule of law?

    The Prime Minister’s predecessor gave the DUP a commitment that parties found to have breached the rule of law and democratic process should, alone, be penalised. I welcome that Gordon Brown has reiterated this remains the Government position.

    The brutal killing of Paul Quinn has shocked many people in Northern Ireland from right across the community who hoped we were moving away from the bad old days. Clearly the police must be given time to conduct their investigations and we will await their definitive assessment. However, the DUP has stated that if it emerges the Provisional IRA was responsible for this murder there will be serious political repercussions. We are resolute that no party associated with a murder like that of Paul Quinn can escape sanction. We have maintained that only those at fault should be penalised and I welcome that the Prime Minister has backed our position in the House of Commons today.” said the DUP MP. ENDS”

  • Dave

    And by the way, the Army Council never did ‘sanction’ all crimes committed by the IRA. They okay the strategy and pass it along to the Northern Command who then devises the tactics to implement it, passing those along to the individual cells, who work out the details and carry out operations. So, I guess this means that the IRA weren’t responsible for most of the murders and crimes carried out, since they didn’t sanction them either. Unless, of course, they told Slab to stop his money making rackets on their behalf and passed his details to the authorities when he refused to do so, in which case it could be argued that he was operating against ‘corporate’ policy.

  • Heard it all

    What a ridiculous assertion. Let’s assume given the location of the beating, that those responsible were also members of the Catholic Church, are you seriously saying that the ‘Church’ was also involved? Sure you don’t want to throw the GAA in there as well? I hear one of the suspects is a leader of Scouting Ireland – I take it they were involved also? Clutching at straws there Baker.

  • Skintown Lad

    Heard it all, the obvious difference is that the Catholic church/GAA/Scouting Ireland has never been involved in punishment beatings and murders in the north of ireland.

    surely at some point the IRA has to take responsibility for its members continuing to do the sorts of things the IRA used to ask them to do

  • Coprorate Reponsibility is an interesing twist. Does Sinn Fein have a corporate social responbility agenda? Do they use only baseball bats made from recycled materials only, for example? Are any of their tortute toys made by Chinese convicts? Do they use biodegradable fules to get rid of the forensics?

  • Steve

    Do any of you see the phrase “former members” ?

    How do the IRA control former members?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Steve: “How do the IRA control former members? ”

    Funny thing that… I seem to recall that part of the spiel come fund-raising time in the bars and pubs of Boston was “once in, never out.” Back then, there was supposedly no such thing as a “former member” of the IRA… Of course, that was before the notion of SF enforcing British law in NI was something anyone ever contemplated, so maybe those old statements are “no longer functional…”

  • If I wasn’t morally opposed to gambling I’d happily bet that the DUP will play this IMC finding down. We now know that the Sinn Feiners were lying as usual when they denied IRA involvement.

    As I pointed out here on Slugger over a year ago, the DUPers justified their sell-out on the grounds that the IRA had signed up to the rule of law. That meant they risked looking very foolish indeed should the IRA ever get up to its old tricks.

    Perhaps someone might ask Papa Doc about it at next FMQs and hopefully Jeffrey will pass the old codger the right answer. I can imagine the old fool being asked about the Quinn murder and replying that toilet facilities at the Giant’s Causeway have never been better.

    Oh and that chuckling some of us can hear comes not this time from the OFMDFM, but from Brazil which Jim Allister is visiting as part of a European Parliamentary delegation. He must be doing a samba at the embarrassment this IMC report will cause to his former colleagues.

  • longlake

    steve
    do you see the phrase ‘current members’?

  • … The IMC, however, will state that current and former members of the IRA …

    The IMC must therefore know both the identities of those involved, and their career history vis-à-vis the IRA. In which case, why no arrests?

    Also, if the IMC can also state that “the IRA leadership did not sanction the murder … “, it must have pretty clear information about the chain of command, and about who did order the murder, why and when. Again I ask, why no arrests?

  • earnan

    Is being in the PIRA still an arrestable crime?

    Just making sure

  • Is being in the PIRA still an arrestable crime?

    Yes.

  • Steve

    earnan/Horseman

    if it is an arrestable crime still, and I will accept that Horseman knows,it is obvious one of the statutes they choose not to enforce or the loyalists in their track suits that love their faces on the front page and openly admit membership to proscribed organizations should have been picked up months ago

  • Steve,

    You are right – they tends to overlook membership unless it suits them, or unless it is combined with something else. The recent case of the UDA ‘show of strength’ at the Alexandra bar showed that they were still prepared to pursue charges of ‘membership’ when necessary.

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/article3568797.ece

    However, in the Quinn caae my question is why thee have been no arrests for murder, affray, assault, or whatever, if the IMC is so certain about who was there?

  • New Yorker

    The press stories raise many questions which hopefully will be answered in the full report.

    Who do they consider the leadership? Do they include Conor Murphy?

    On what basis did they form the belief that it was not sanctioned by the leadership? What more did they go on than interviews with those ‘careless’ with the truth?

    Who sanctioned the murder? An organized group of up to 20 operating in two adjacent states did not just decide by themselves to execute this, especially since members were involved.

    As Horseman asks: Why no arrests? And, I add, why not even any charges?

    SF represents the provos yet they know nothing about this murder. If that dubious statement were true, then what good are SF?

  • longlake

    horseman
    ‘why no arrests’? This could be for a number or reasons! Suppose the Gardai know there were 9 men in that farmyard when Paul Quinn was murdered and suppose they believe they have proof of who 6 were but not enough proof on the other 3 yet! If they move to arrest the 6 they have proof on then the other 3 skip town pronto and, believe me, the Gardai want every single one of those muderers. Also suppose that the Gardai have a good idea of which great provo ‘leaders’ in sth Armagh sat down with others, planned and ordered this ‘operation’ and further suppose that the Gardai need a few more wee bits of info to nail that tight then again they won’t move until they can pull in every single one of those disgusting people in the guise of ‘republicns’who ordered and organised this butchery and if that takes months more it doesn’t matter, getting the buggers and getting them right is far more important than speedy arrests. Murphy and Adams atre barefaced liars!!

  • “However, in the Quinn caae my question is why thee have been no arrests for murder, affray, assault, or whatever, if the IMC is so certain about who was there?”

    Probably for the same reason that so few IRA murderers were brought to justice.

    Of course, the former Shinner Jim McAllister has said that IRA persons WERE involved. But maybe that’s not enough for our whitewashing brethren on Slugger. Hell, it must have been a Kitson gang, or maybe Robert Nairac’s ghost.

  • – oh and maybe Robert McCartney just slipped several times on the knife. Which reminds me, and this is a question for any DUPers, if Sinn Fein really has signed up to the rule of law why has it not encouraged the witnesses in the bar to go to the police?

  • The Donaldson and other DUP websites have come back online:

    BROWN CONFIRMS WRONGDOERS WILL PAY FOR ANY DEFAULT

    Meanwhile, McGuinness and Donaldson are Iraq bound

  • “believe me, the Gardai want every single one of those muderers”

    If it’s not politically ‘appropriate’ the Gardai (and the PSNI) will not be allowed to proceed.

  • Dave

    Bertie Ahern stated back in October that the murder of Paul Quinn shouldn’t have any implications for the ongoing appeasement process because Sinn Fein condemned the murder asked people to co-operate with the police. So, Sinn Fein should not be excluded from the Executive as result of IRA criminality if it met his two conditions (condemnation and a public appeal by Sinn Fein for witnesses to co-operate with the police).

    He didn’t need to introduce his new (low) standards because Jeffrey Donaldson introduced an even lower standard that stipulated that Sinn Fein should not be excluded from the Executive as result of an IRA crime if it could not be established that the IRA were “corporately involved” in the crime. In other words, if the IMC said that the IRA’s Army Council did not sanction the murder of Paul Quinn, then his party would not object to Sinn Fein being allowed to continue in the Executive. Unsurprisingly, the IMC and its political agenda have helpfully concluded that the IRA were not “corporately involved” in the crime.

    Everybody is happy with the filthy deal except the family of Paul Quinn and the other Paul Quinns to come now that the IRA knows that it can continue to murder with impunity in the new dispensation. And there will be other Paul Quinns since criminal gangs operate by the threat of violence and threats are meaningless if you don’t carry them out in enough instances to demonstrate that there is a reasonable probability of violence for non-compliance with the demands of the gang. This is a death sentence for others, but these politicians and just utter self-serving degenerates who simply don’t care about any interests other than their own.

  • New Yorker

    Dave

    Peter Robinson is soon to be First Minister and is DUP Leader, he needs to show that NI is not a place where citizens are murdered by provo gangs and let run free and their apologists in government cover-up and thus encourage more of the same. He should show that he is a strong leader and address all aspects of this matter so people can be certain their government protects their lives, murderers and their associates brought to justice and that his government strongly stands for full adherence to the law. I believe Brian Cowen would fully support him if and when he makes such a stand. Hopefully we will hear from him shortly now that it seems that the IMC will confirm that this murder was carried out by the provos.

    Good point you make about future Paul Quinns. You know about killer dogs that have tasted blood?

  • Where are the Twelve Apostles? Where are Messrs Simpson, McCrea and Wells?

    Why does Wee Jeffrey and the DUP require evidence of “corporate involvement” when neither required any such evidence throughout the whole of the Troubles? A rhetorical question, of course – when they were looking for any stick to whack the Purple Turtle, you couldn’t have shut them up on the subject. Now that they are the ones in power, suddenly they don’t want to know.

    It’s appalling behaviour by the self-styled Superprods, although easily explicable, because a year ago they gave plenty of hostages to fortune when they made all sorts of claims about what Sinn Fein had signed up to. For them to do otherwise now would be to admit that their critics were right all along – and that would never do. It’s not going to matter at the end of the day. The IRA will hang the DUP out to dry just as they did Trimble.

    As for the declining UUP, if you do a search on its website for the words “Paul Quinn”, the last thing to come up is dated 27 October and contains a lame assertion by Danny Kennedy of “political consequences” should IRA involvement be established.

    Such is the feeble state of the snout-in-trough unionist political class.

  • longlake

    nevin
    i know exactly what you mean but have to be hopeful in this case. If politics are allowed to stymie the investigation the repercussions will be long term and whoever gets policing and justice will have trouble selling themselves in the sth armagh area as in any way impartial.

  • Ard Eoin

    Dread
    The IRA were a volunteer army, so you’re once in never out drivel doesn’t wash.

    On a broader point, is the british army ghq responsible for the actions of it’s off duty soldiers during peace-time?
    Do some of you people read your posts before you post them, there is a preview facility, try using it before re-pedalling the same rubbish.
    The parades commission is going, why not get rid of the IMC as well, they could all goand work for the SW.

  • NP

    “Posted by longlake on Apr 30, 2008 @ 05:19 PM”

    Longlake: i suspect you give slab & the boys more strategic skills than they deserve.

    im inclined to think they just got pissed & axed yer man to death.

    swattin a fly……..

  • Steve

    funny how 1 man who may or may not have been murdered by members or former memers or associates of members or or former members of the IRA gets the posters all self important an justified

    but the shooting known for sure to have been done by loyalists are conveniently forgotten even though they involved home invasions and the victims attacked in front of children.

    in the mean time an elected representative of unionism that has publicaly acknowledged that he is a member or former member or associate of a member or former member of a unionist paramilitary is due to become First Minister. Which completely negates unionists claims not to be involved with terrorists

    funny how quick the worm turns and how fast unionists will gurn about the truth that this post is composed of

  • overhere

    Oh look band wagon …lets all jump on it !!

  • simple truth

    Poor young Paul Quinn was SLAUGHTERED by the same ira provo butchers who held down scapaticies victims, whilst he castrated them and drove chisels through their eyeballs into their brains.
    Gaskin and co want to remember that whatever scappo knew about the south armagh ira so did the brits i will bet they were all bloody informers.More like the mount vernon branch of the ira, can I sign on as an informer and get paid instead of going to jail please.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Ard Eoin: “The IRA were a volunteer army, so you’re once in never out drivel doesn’t wash”

    Ok, so it was posturing and propaganda…

    Ard Eoin: “On a broader point, is the british army ghq responsible for the actions of it’s off duty soldiers during peace-time?”

    Comes down to cases… were those off-duty soldiers actions to contravene larger agreements or have larger repurcussions, then yes, there would be the proverbial devil to pay.

    Ard Eoin: “The parades commission is going, why not get rid of the IMC as well, they could all goand work for the SW.”

    As evidenced by the continued existence of certain organizations that have not disarmed, the IMC’s work, such as it is, hasn’t been completed.