Side effects

No one from the Shankill Road area has joined the PSNI in the past five years. Hugh Orde says the statistic is indicative of a broader problem:
“It’s a sad fact that we are not getting an awful lot of working class Protestant kids aspiring to join policing – it’s simply a fact. It just shows me we have more work to do, we need to look at it in more detail,”
A suggestion of one of the contributory factors, why apply when you start at a disadvantage?

  • RepublicanStones

    I take it FD your no fan of affirmative action in the states.
    What do you think could be instituted to increase catholic representation in the peelers if not the 50/50 scheme?

    ‘why apply when you start at a disadvantage’

    Why don’t the F1 drivers at the back of the grid throw in the towel before the green light???
    because success makes it all the more sweeter !
    A defeatist attitude is not conducive to good policing as evidenced by Stoneyford, Cluan etc…

  • percy

    yeah fair-deal you’ve messed up this one. sorry m8
    It goes alot deeper than that, I’d suggest the loyalists have been reared on a diet of prejudice and misinformation, and have even more resentment towards authority than their republican counterparts.
    Hence no decommisioning, and little political progress has been made. All made worse by abandonment by unionist leaders; who used em good, but deny them, to maintain hypocracy.

    What’s the answer? more engagement from ppl like robinson and Dodds, get them to visit these areas regularly and get them to say they care about these people.
    Give them a sense of pride, to make it easier as whitney housten would sing 🙂

  • Norton

    Fair Deal – I’m afraid there is quite a clear logical fallacy in your argument.
    Take ten average ten-year-olds from the Catholic community and ten average ten-year-olds from the Protestant community.
    If, when they become 21, five of those Catholics want to become police officers and are accepted, then only five of the Protestants will be able to join them if they so desire.
    However, educational failings in state schools in areas of socio-economic deprivation mean that a significant percentage of those ten Protestant twenty-one-year-olds will not be educationally able to make it through the selection process.
    More importantly, an even bigger proportion of those Protestants will have gone to university in the UK and will not be coming back.
    In short, what I am saying is that in actual fact there are more Catholic 21-year-olds willing and able to join the police than Protestants.
    Without 50-50, the recruitment will be 80 per cent Catholic and 20 per cent Protestant, such is the desperate educational failings of the unionist community which remains in Northern Ireland.
    In other words, 50-50 is working in your favour and you’d be more sensible to keep it.

  • percy

    quite brillaint norton, is that the motorcycle or the anti-virus software?

  • Norton

    And before anyone says it – I have heard the flannel about the 50-50 only being applicable to those who have made it through to the final pool, on merit.
    I simply do not believe it. One only has to look empirically at the law, journalism, accountancy, teaching to see how the Catholic community is outpacing the Protestant community. It’s clear that 50-50 is essential to recruit the strongest and most academically able people. Anyone who has seen a ‘Trevor’ fumble his way through an interview or be torn to pieces by a Catholic barrister knows that the PSNI needs 50-50.

  • Norton

    It’s the boxer Percy. Your sarcasm means that you won’t be getting a drink at the Slugger do.

  • Dec

    A suggestion of one of the contributory factors, why apply when you start at a disadvantage?

    Other equally plausible contributory factors might include aversion to doing a days work, dissatisfaction with the pay scale or simply not liking the police.

    In other developments, the News Letter reports that the number of school-leavers from the Shankill going onto 3rd-Level education remains low. This stark fact is probably related to the higher number of school leavers from nationalist areas who go on to 3rd-Level education .

  • fair_deal

    RS

    “What do you think could be instituted to increase catholic representation in the peelers if not the 50/50 scheme?”

    Approaches like the successful gender action plan.

    If 50:50 applied to the F1 driver, even if they got from the back opf the grid into a point-scoring place, the driver could be dsiqualified on the basis of religion.

    Plus if 50:50 is necessary to attract one section of society then the corrollary of that is that it makes it less attractive to

  • West Belfast

    A suggestion of one of the contributory factors, why apply when you start at a disadvantage? Posted by Fair Deal.

    The argument used by Catholics between 1922 and 2001!

    Its a police service for everyone – that is good for society.

  • Norton

    Fair Deal – Will you address the point I made? In a nutshell, I am suggesting strongly that such is the growing acceptability of the PSNI to academically strong Catholic graduates that without 50-50, Protestants will be lucky to be recruited on a 30-70 basis. You might not be too keen on the principle of 50-50 but if I were a DUP man like yourself, I’d concern myself with the realpolitik and see the advantage in it.

  • Quiz Master

    Lord Laird is an idiot at the best of times. His cock and baloney theory of the Cruithin just proves my point .If there hadn’t been discrimination against catholics in the first place all those decades ago in this protestant country for protestant people only, none of this 50:50 recruiting would have been necessary. I agree with the idea that people should be recruited on merit but this was not the case in the past. Whats going on is that a police force that will be unable to turn a blind eye against either sides violence is being created. We wont have a repeat of the terrorist actions of people like paisley cutting off power supplies to everyone in the future and the police not locking up people involved in what was an attempted coup d’état. Lord Lairds argument is disingenuous. How much money has he made from that Ulster Scots (Language that never existed until the started making up words like ullans and copying and pasting scots words and adding a ballymena twang)malarkey is what I want to know?

  • percy

    obviously a southpaw norton

  • Norton, if something is wrong it is wrong, regardless of who it advantages.

    West Belfast, I think a stronger argument might have been “why apply when you risk a ‘visit’ from ‘the boys’?”.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘the driver could be dsiqualified on the basis of religion.’

    protestants are not disqualified, merely a percentage of catholics is a requirement, meaning competition is stronger, nobody is disqualified.

  • Yes they are RS. With you being so up on the history of RUC “discrimination” surely you can appreciate that just because not all Protestants are disqualified doens’t mean that others aren’t.

    Take a hypothetical and not unrealistic situation.
    8 Protestants and 5 Catholics make the grade. 3 of those Protestants will be disqualified. They just won’t know it until the race is over.

  • willowfield

    What are the academic qualifications required to join the police?

    I think the issue is more about low levels of aspiration and poor educational attainment within the Protestant working class than it is about 50:50 (albeit the latter may be a problem of perception – my experience is that Protestants don’t actually realise they are outnumbered by RCs in the younger age groups).

  • PaddyReilly

    The term “Working Class” is still being applied to that stratum of society who used to do the menial work but nowadays largely manage to avoid it. Fueled of course by excuses such as supplied by FD about discrimination putting you off applying.

    One point Norton doesn’t make is that among 21 year olds more than 50% are from a Catholic background: today’s 21 year olds break down, according to the census, into 13,858 Catholics, 12,258 Other Christians, 71 Others and 925 no religion stated. So 50/50 discriminates against Catholics!

    If course, if you really want to be a policeman, why not apply to Strathclyde?

  • Norton

    Indeed willowfield – a point exacerbated when you take into account the higher number of Protestants who stay in Scotland and England when they have finished their studies.

    Beano – the Protestants just are not making the grade and that is the problem.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘With you being so up on the history of RUC “discrimination’

    Toys…pram

    ‘8 Protestants and 5 Catholics make the grade. 3 of those Protestants will be disqualified. They just won’t know it until the race is over.’

    3 of those Protestants will not be selected because the other 5 were stronger more able candidates. 50% catholics/ 50% other…..I doubt if too many Jews or muslims are apllying en masse, meaning in relaity its roughly 50% protestant as well, protestants are in competition between other protestants, meaning the best get through, surely that is no bad thing. Im all for dropping the 50/50 once the force has a reasonable ratio of catholics in its ranks. it seems some rue the passing of the RUC.

  • Norton

    Paddy Reilly – thank you for those figures. That makes the point even more strongly. FD is up the logical creek without a paddle.

    Percy – if you keep this up, you might get a southpaw swat.

    I actually think another wider point is a more serious one – literally hundreds of police recruits do not actually actively have vocations to be officers but are instead focused on the salary in an economy which has half-decent universities but completely and utterly fails graduates.

  • BonarLaw

    RepublicanStones

    “it seems some rue the passing of the RUC”

    and the passing of a merit based appointment system which does not discriminate against anyone who is not Catholic.

  • percy

    willowfield I think you can add low self-esteem to that list also. What’s the answer?
    Why can’t unionist leaders bare to look at them?

    Norton,
    Beat , beat me on the bottom with the catholic herald. Hey that slugger do sounds great.
    I’m on magners cider these days.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘and the passing of a merit based appointment system which does not discriminate against anyone who is not Catholic.’

    but expects those recruits once they pass out to discriminate against catholics. If its not ‘your’ police force anymore Bonar, its wrong, is that about the height of it?. Hard luck.
    Again bonar its 50% catholic 50% other……are you suggesting that protestants are in severe competition with Muslims or hindus?

  • fair_deal

    Percy

    “It goes a lot deeper than that”

    Yes hence “A suggestion of one of the contributory factors”.

    “more engagement from ppl like robinson and Dodds, get them to visit these areas regularly and get them to say they care about these people.”

    I don;t know much about the East belfast operation but the DUP in North didn’t get to where it was without doing just that.

    How does opposition to discrimination against them show a lack of care?

    Norton

    You overlook that it is 50% catholic and 50% others – anyone from outside NI, of an ethnic minority background etc comes out of that.

    More importantly, you try to overlook the consequences of how 50:50 operates. The 21 year old Protestant with the same apptitudes, qualifications, performance as the 5 Catholics you describe can be refused a job on the basis of their perceived religious identity as has happened to some 700 people.

    As I said to RS (this time without the missing word:
    “Plus if 50:50 is necessary to attract one section of society then the corrollary of that is that it makes it less attractive to another.”

    Plus you (and others) are seriously over-estimated the academic hurdles a police candidate has to meet.

    As far as I can see from the recruitment info there are no formal qualifications required let alone a degree, for standard entry.
    “Standard level requirements consist of displaying an acceptable level of
    fitness and academic ability (Police Initial Recruitment Test), and completing an assessment centre and medical test.”

    Here is a practice version of the recruitment test PDF file):
    http://www.selectnip.org/docs/Practice%20test%20_v1_.pdf
    I tend to remember my degree course being somewhat tougher than this.

    Dec

    “Other equally plausible contributory factors ”

    As for percy

    “dissatisfaction with the pay scale”

    Pay scale isn’t bad – starting pay is £21K, jumping to 24k on completion of training. Certainly beats the hell out of the service sector starting rates.

    “aversion to doing a days work”

    Is that a trait restricted to or more prevalent among working class prods? If not then it does not explain the differential.

    “or simply not liking the police.”

    Is that a trait restricted to or more prevalent working class prods? If not then it does not explain the differential.

  • BonarLaw

    RepublicanStones

    the only thing that is wrong is the discrimination against young people on the grounds that they are not Catholic.

    Protestant applicants are in competition with others who are not Catholic. That means Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and members of the Chinese community.

    Thanks Ken Maginnis.

  • percy

    fair-deal
    “How does opposition to discrimination against them show a lack of care?”
    They’ve made it a sectarian issue, that’s an easy way out of a deeper malaise.

    Too much camouflage still being used on both sides, Where’s the courage?
    Harder because of the carve-up in politics.
    Who’s going to blink first?
    Good thread anyway.

  • George

    Would the fact that over 92% of school leavers in this area don’t have a qualification above GCSE standard be relevant?

    Is this an “acceptable level” of “academic ability” for the PSNI in its Police Initial Recruitment Test?

  • Norton

    Fair Deal – surely though you will concede that someone with a good academic grounding is more likely to do better at the police test than someone without one? And that the police at least should be looking for graduates as opposed to non-graduates. I have already made the point that I believe one of the failings of the PSNI is that its rank and file officers simply are not intelligent enough. Witness the SOCO who mucked up the Omagh evidence and I now understand are serving as officers or the clown who appeared in the advert about drink-driving only subsequently to be found guilty of the same offence.
    In which case, in the current climate, if fifty per cent of the applicants are Catholic and fifty per cent non-Catholic, then it seems to me more likely that the Catholic will do well in the test.
    I do take your point about fifty per cent being non-Catholic rather than Protestant though I am inclined to believe that the numbers of others applying who are not Protestants from Northern Ireland is probably nugatory.
    I do not take your point that 50:50 is necessarily off-putting to Protestants. I think if a young academically-able Protestant wants to join the PSNI there is still more than enough opportunity for them to do so. My point is that there simply are not enough of them and unionists are better placed to concern themselves with the reason for that than with 50:50, which seems to me in the current climate to be actually in unionists’ favour.

  • fair_deal

    All

    Education qualifications have came up as a big theme in comments but as far as I can see from recruitment info they are not required for start a career in the police. This misconception could be “one of the contributory factors”

    Norton

    “I am suggesting strongly that such is the growing acceptability of the PSNI to academically strong Catholic graduates”

    The point has been addressed in my second post, I hadn’t seen your comment at the time of my first response, hence the gap.

    1. You are incorrect in the assumptions about academic requirements for PSNI recruitment.
    2. Qualified candidates are being turned away on the basis of background, over 700. There has NOT been a lack of qualified Protestants applying.
    3. If an imbalance appears you work on it through other measures such as the gender action plan not pass discriminatory laws even ones you could be a beneficiary of. For example if your point about academic qualification was correct then you’d ensure the recruitment promotional programme those who have sought degrees on the mianland.

    Paddy Reilly

    The recruitment age range for a PSNI officer is not 21 it is 18-57.

    Willowfield

    You have to pass an entrance test not have academic qualifications as far as I can see.

  • fair_deal

    Percy

    “They’ve made it a sectarian issue”

    They didn’t come up with the proposal or enact it.

    Norton

    “which seems to me in the current climate to be actually in unionists’ favour”

    Again ” Qualified candidates are being turned away on the basis of background, over 700. There has NOT been a lack of qualified Protestants applying.”

    George

    Look at the practice test pdf. IMO a GCSE student could cope with it

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    “The Chief Constable also said there are now more serving officers from west of the River Bann than there are from the west Belfast Protestant stronghold.”

    What are the comparable populations?

    Has the population of the Shankill Road ( whatver that includes ) declined in last 5 years?

  • Dec

    Pay scale isn’t bad – starting pay is £21K, jumping to 24k on completion of training. Certainly beats the hell out of the service sector starting rates.

    Entry-level was £18,000, I thought though it may have gone up. Anyway, it is reasonably plausible?

    Is that a trait restricted to or more prevalent among working class prods? If not then it does not explain the differential.

    No but we are talking about the Shankill. Over 10% of the population are on DLA here. The law of averages dictates some of them live there. And the differential to what exactly? Do we have figures on how many poeople have joined the PSNI from the Falls since 2003?

    Is that [not liking the police] a trait restricted to or more prevalent working class prods? If not then it does not explain the differential.

    No but we are talking about the Shankill. And the differential to what exactly? etc.

  • Norton

    Fair Deal – we’re out of sync in our posts at the moment. See above. I have explained why I believe I am not incorrect about academic ability. An Oxford graduate is more likely to do well in the entrance exam and subsequent interview than someone from UUJ.
    I do understand that, according to the PSNI, the 700 rejects did make it through on merit but were rejected on the grounds of their religion.
    I believe that it is only in the past year since the political settlement that we have begun to see the real impetus in Catholics joining the PSNI. In the years to come, indigenous unionists, who are academically failing or else absent elsewhere, will be glad of 50-50 to ensure that they have at least half of the representation.
    It’s a point I have made in other posts elsewhere. For decades, unionists have been flocking to universities in England, Scotland and Wales. They are the flower of unionism and they have not come back. Consequently state schools are clogged up, and I know of many examples, with teachers of A-Level English who did not even themselves score an A in the same subject ten years previously. That is why young unionists are failing and why it cannot be strong until the economy improves and those young graduates come back here.

  • Dec

    Look at the practice test pdf. IMO a GCSE student could cope with it

    What’s the GCSE pass rate in the Shankill. And no, that trait (low GCSE success)is not restricted to or more prevalent among working class prods?

  • Norton

    Fair Deal – I believe Catholics will flood into the PSNI in a much more significant and striking way in the next five years than they did in the last five because of the political settlement, and because they are much less likely to be intimidated. Then, without 50-50, as in every other walk of life here now, Protestants will be consistenly outperformed at test and interview level, and acceptances will slow to a trickle. It’ll become the case that Protestants will wish 50-50 was there for all time as it at least gives some opportunity of parity.

  • pacman

    John Laird: “This is the only part of the modern developed world that allows discrimination on the basis on religion”

    You have to hand it to him – it’s only taken 88 years for him to notice.

  • RepublicanStones

    Bonar have you got figures for ‘Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and members of the Chinese community’ who are applying? again i ask, are you suggesting lots are, therefore protestants are facing severe competition from minorites?

  • Dave in North Carolina

    Norton, I have no idea why you keep rabbiting on about Prods being outperformed and how that should be the number one concern. You also seem to think that for every one Catholic employed the scheme will balance with Prodestants, but that is not the case. So I don’t understand the relevance of your line

    “It’ll become the case that Protestants will wish 50-50 was there for all time as it at least gives some opportunity of parity.”

    If it is of no concern to you, then it won’t make much difference if “50-50” is removed, will it? I think there should be VERY good reasons for leaving this policy in place.. I don’t see them anymore.

    Shockingly, many things at once should be possible.

  • fair_deal

    Dec

    “Entry-level was £18,000”

    I got those figures from the latest recruitment round info.

    “No but we are talking about the Shankill”

    Some-what crosspurposes as I was talking more about Orde’s general point rather than a sole focus on the Shankill. However, I have always understood economic activity / ill health levels to be comparable across the working class including in West Belfast.

    “And the differential to what exactly?”

    The differential Orde talks about.

    “What’s the GCSE pass rate in the Shankill”

    IIRC the % of kids getting five or more grade c GCSE’s in the shankill varies from 22-42% depending on which ward you look at.

  • Dec

    The differential Orde talks about.

    Which is hardly, like for like. What’s the comparison with the Falls?

    IIRC the % of kids getting five or more grade c GCSE’s in the shankill varies from 22-42% depending on which ward you look at.

    As you say, a contributing factor…

  • Rory

    Given the history of protestant involvement in policing in Northern Ireland I should think that protestants should think themselves damned priveleged to be allowed any involvement in a non-sectarian police service at all.

    Certainly I would hope that at the very least all candidates are subject to the most rigorous psychological profiling before acceptance into the ranks.

    But 50:50 has been agreed and 50:50 it must be. I am consoled that what with demograohics and differing levels of educational attainment it is likely that the higher ranks will gradually be heavily weighted in favour of those recruits from a background that is without the baggage of sectarianism and an acceptable service might be forged.

  • Dave in North Carolina

    Rory,

    Given the history of protestant involvement in policing in Northern Ireland I should think that protestants should think themselves damned priveleged to be allowed any involvement in a non-sectarian police service at all.

    Damn one, damn them all, eh Rory? Quite a nice sectarian mindset you have there.

    Any more people you don’t like? Black people, Jews, no?

  • Norton

    Dave in North Carolina – I have made clear why I think it’s actually in favour of Protestants for 50-50 to remain in place for good. Without it the PSNI will be 70 per cent Catholic in twenty years time for the reasons I’ve laid out. And then Protestants will wish that it was still in place.

  • Dave in North Carolina

    Norton,

    Can you describe how that will change if it stays in place? It simply means that for every non-Catholic employed, a Catholic must be employed. But NOT that for every Catholic employed, a Protestant must be employed…

    I fully supported it being there for many years, but it is time for it to go.

  • Eddie

    I don’t want Protestant policemen; I don’t want Catholic policemen; I just want any sort of policemen to come when needed – but it seems they often don’t

  • Beano – the Protestants just are not making the grade and that is the problem.

    Isn’t it great to hear the arguments used for decades by Unionist bigots now trotted out, in reverse, by Nationalist bigots!

    Without 50-50, the recruitment will be 80 per cent Catholic and 20 per cent Protestant

    Would you like to provide some evidence for that assertion?

  • 5tupib prob

    I’m just concerned about all these Letters Norton has and how thick I will seem in comparison to him when we sit our “who’s got the most useless arts degree” test to see who gets to work in lucrative construction and engineering concerns……

    you would think a sharp cookie like old nort would realise that the actual fortunes and abilities of some (a-hem) vapid little twit with a degree in scholastic philosophy and ceramic anthropology compared with that of a GCSE student with sound experience in car mechanics might not be what the quantification of their academic achievements would indicate to the imprudent observer.

    And by the way, immigration and emigration cycles can be funny things and their actual consequences are not always apparent. Something a cerebral chap like the average slugger commentator will no doubt be aware of ……..

  • am even stupiber prob

    the shankill is the poorest place in Northern Ireland. the trend Hugh describes is distorted, not defined, when it is considered as a symptom of Irish history or politics. it is a symptom of under class state symbiosis that is a cancer all over developed society.

    cut the benefits and they will apply for every job in the paper.

  • Ms Wiz

    FD

    Well here’s a contradiction. You surely do recognise that while educational qualifictions aren’t necessarily a requirement, actually having them must put you at an advantage over a lesser qualified person.

    Protestant boys are now the biggest under-achievers in the school system yet the DUP, who profess to have Protestants’ interests at heart, want to retain the 11+ or some other form of academic selection. The 11+ is an exam that was not so much designed to pass the top 25%, but to fail the bottom 75%. Today just 3% of schoolchildren on the Shankill pass the exam.

  • fair_deal

    Dec

    “As you say, a contributing factor… ”

    That will explain the lack of working class candidates but offers little explanation of the differential – there are similar/comparable levels in nationalist West but Orde is saying they are coming forward so it doesn’t seem to offer much explanation for a differential.

    Ms Wiz

    Sorry but not buying the myth that the 11+ is the source of educational woes and its abolition the panacea.

    The obsession with it has seriously hampered the issue of tackling educational under-acheivement as it has focused the discussion on secondary level when the fundamental issues are more at the primary level before the 11+ even comes up and in the broader community. Those who are failed by the system will continue because of this will continue to be regardless of the 11+.

    Also it can’t be abolished, it will be replaced by sons and daughters of the 11+, even if it could be abolished selection by postcode will take a hatchet to social mobility.

  • Rory

    No, Dave, unlike many in North Carolina, I don’t have any problem with blacks and Jews but I certainly did have a big problem with an anti-catholic RUC and I do not wish to see its traditions re-established, whatever it takes.

    I feel sure that those blacks and Jews of North Carolina from the Civil Rights era would feel much the same about enlisting police recruits from among redneck racists today.

  • Norton

    Sammy Morse

    It’s a fairly empirical sort of argument. State schools here are having to employ teachers from England and Wales by the bucketload because of the lack of professional graduates from the Protestant community who have stayed in NI. Most Catholic graduates who go into teaching stay in the CCMS sector.
    It’s the same at the Bar where an ever decreasing number of young Protestants are called each year. It’s the same pattern in accountancy firms, law firms and elsewhere. There is no reason to believe that the police will be any different.
    I would think that in the medium-term Protestants will appreciate 50-50 going the other way, even if , as Dave points out, it doesn’t at the moment.

  • Dave in North Carolina

    Rory

    You can be as ignorant about North Carolina as you are about Ireland, but it makes no difference to me.. I’m from the north of Ireland. Anyway: same principles apply- rednecks are not a religion or race, not a terribly fair comparison. Just like you suggesting that based on past events you don’t want equal treatment based for people based on a certain religion.. You should rethink things.

    Norton

    I would think that in the medium-term Protestants will appreciate 50-50 going the other way, even if , as Dave points out, it doesn’t at the moment.

    Perhaps I’ve got you wrong? Are you suggesting changing the “50:50” policing entrance to make sure 50% of it’s entrants are Protestant? (I still disagree with it- there isn’t a compelling justification for it either way)

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘there isn’t a compelling justification for it either way)’

    you must have missed the whole RUC thingymajig !

  • Rory

    Dave,

    You are simply wrong. This is what I said:

    “But 50:50 has been agreed and 50:50 it must be.”

    The unwillingness of unionists to accept this agreement as illustrated by comments on this site (and indeed this very post and some responses to it) demonstrates just how important it is that democrats surrender “not an inch” on this issue.

    If you believe that refusing to allow a sectarian protestant dominated police force to again arise is in itself sectarian then I am afraid I can’t help you – your thought processes are beyond my ken.

  • Dave in North Carolina

    “you must have missed the whole RUC thingymajig !”

    you must have missed years 1998-2008 !

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘you must have missed years 1998-2008 !’

    which means????????

  • Dave in North Carolina

    Rory,

    Firstly, I’m not a unionist. I think the days of anyone dominating the police service in a sectarian way are gone. Unless most of the people in it think like you.

    “But 50:50 has been agreed and 50:50 it must be.”

    If that was all you said, there wouldn’t be a problem. What you said which I thought was bigoted was:

    “Given the history of protestant involvement in policing in Northern Ireland I should think that protestants should think themselves damned priveleged to be allowed any involvement in a non-sectarian police service at all.”

    I care not about whoever “surrenders” anything if it doesn’t affect peoples fundamental rights as citizens. You can turn it whichever way you want, but you are not doing anything to help peace on the isle. Which in turn just solidifies the state of Northern Ireland.

    I am happy to wait for 2010 to come when this is ended, as I was when I thought it was necessary. Are you happy to help maintain a normal society?

    Without your hatred, we can vote on a united Ireland together.

  • Dave in North Carolina

    which means????????

    In 1998 the percentage of RUC officers from a Catholic background was 8.3%; in February 2008 this figure for the PSNI was 23.7%

    I want to see a more balanced police force too. And yes, I mean 50/50 or close enough. But I think natural market forces will help create it in due course from here on in. You may disagree.. and on that I respect your disagreement.

  • DK

    Rory: “Given the history of protestant involvement in policing in Northern Ireland I should think that protestants should think themselves damned priveleged to be allowed any involvement in a non-sectarian police service at all.”

    Because, Rory, Only the prods were sectarian eh? Or is that gross stereotyping and demonisation of an entire people… think on it.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘In 1998 the percentage of RUC officers from a Catholic background was 8.3%; in February 2008 this figure for the PSNI was 23.7%’

    still not up to the requirement…..so what was your point about the 1998-2008 thingymajig again?????

    ‘But I think natural market forces’

    you seem to forget the place we live in…..ooops!

  • Rory

    No, DK, I did not say that “only the prods were sectarian”, nor do I suppose that that was the case. It remains however that Northern Ireland was a jurisdiction where protestant, anti-catholic sectarianism was institutionalised, where such sectarianism was an article of faith for loyal protestants and of which a protestant, anti-catholic police force was the armed safeguard.

    It is for that reason that, most especially in the formation of a new non-sectarian police service, there must be be no dilution of the requirement for a balanced recruitment policy and most certainly no pandering to the hypocritical whinge that protestants now face sectarian discrimination.

    As we embrace the new there can be no tolerance whatsoever of any attempt to ressurect the old guard by stealth using the devious tactics of Lord Laird (or should that not be Laird Laird ?).

  • Gregory

    “As we embrace the new there can be no tolerance whatsoever of any attempt to ressurect the old guard by stealth using the devious tactics of Lord Laird (or should that not be Laird Laird ?).”

    The justice.gov interest in DENI began in a way with Ulster Scots issues,

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1878252.stm

    then one day a Brit teacher came along and quadrupled their child sexual grooming cases. Lord Laird took up the challenge.

    The tories who were invited over to DC more or less admitted tht home-schooling in Britain was the only safe way to go.

    We need a police involvement in policing,

    we don’t need NCIS. Special Branch, CEOP, MI5, or MI6 stuffing our schools with the sexually deviant cast-off filth the London govt. is trying to find a billet for.

    G.

  • Reader

    Ms Wiz: Today just 3% of schoolchildren on the Shankill pass the exam.
    You find that wee fact useful? Do you accept that a great deal of harm has already been done in the Shankill, somehow, by the age of 11?
    And by removing selection, you could conceal that problem, but how would removing selection fix it?
    Those children have already had 7 years of comprehensive education. Fix *that* before proposing another 5 or 7 years of the same as a cure.

  • Gregory

    ‘In 1998 the percentage of RUC officers from a Catholic background was 8.3%; in February 2008 this figure for the PSNI was 23.7%’

    SF are not a Catholic party, what have they done for us recently?

    From a Catholic point of view we’re far more interested in who the PSNI arrest that who they employ. Nobody is going to starve waiting for a PSNI pay-packet.

    The PSNI are politicized, we’d like to end that. It is embarrassing for Catholicism that the Northern Bishops can have a free pass.

    G.