Mary McAleese back in NI

Following Mary McAleese’s intervention linking a visit by the Queen to the RoI to devolution of policing and justice (later confirmed as Dublin government policy) there was universal anger from unionists; her comments being condemned by the DUP, UUP and TUV.

After McAleese’s last set of unacceptable remarks (the infamous “Prods are like Nazis” comments) she had to cancel a visit to Belfast. She has, however, been back in Northern Ireland this week according to her website. She appears to have been to a number of maintained schools, an integrated school and a nursing home.

One wonders how long it will be until she tries visiting a predominantly Protestant school or unionist area or event. She may have decided that keeping a low profile will allow this row to blow over. However, after two extremely unpopular episodes seemingly calculated to annoy unionists; one wonders whether or not she will be welcomed by anyone other than protestors if she tries any further “Unionist engagement.”

  • The Third Policeman

    Ignoring the last two pages of absolute glar in this topic Turgan I doubt you may edit your post to clear up your mistakes. Especially that “Prods are like Nazis” line, considering how its been proven to be untrue.

    Also I suggest closing the damn thing, its starting to run away from itself.

  • PeaceandJustice

    TAFKABO – “Prince. I’m genuinely sorry for the experience of your children, my own daughter suffered some sectarianism herself, simply for traveling on school bus which identified her as coming from the “protestant” community.”

    No children should have to experience such things – regardless of their background. From a news article about Arlene Foster:
    “Foster grew up on a remote Border farm in Rosslea. When she was eight, the IRA tried to kill her police officer father: ‘They shot him in the head as he was closing in the cattle. He came crawling into the house, blood streaming down his face.’

    ‘We couldn’t stay in Rosslea. I’d to move house and school – it was traumatic.’ Nine years later, she was on a school bus. The driver was a part-time UDR man. ‘A bomb exploded under the bus. The girl sitting beside me was badly injured.'”

    Yet we hear very little about victims like that school girl who was badly injured by the evil that is Sinn Fein PIRA. And the discrimination suffered by Protestants in Eire is ignored. Yet Pan-Nationalists keep coming on here telling us they are the most oppressed people ever and no one suffered except them.

    TAFKABO – “I do think that Nationalist have a real problem with recognising that sectarianism is a bigger problem from them [than] they’ve ever been prepared to admit … Unfortunately it seems to me that nationalists are only to eager to define unionism as a whole by the sectarian actions of a few.”

    This is very true.

  • Some of the nationalist posts on this thread have been a disgrace. Infantile, derogatory and abusive. Those concerned should be embarrassed if they go back and read their comments. I’m quite sure they know who they are.

    I’m sure Major Dolittle that in terms of posts which are disgraceful, infantile, derogatory and abusive, that nationalist posters here, the minority it seems, would agree that your own outpourings are by far the benchmark for such posts. Your agenda is obvious, as is the agenda of this thread from the point of view of neanderthal unionism, and it is to further marginalise a contrary point of view to their own on this thread. It seems to me that the object of the exercise re Mary McAleese is similar, to make her unwelcome in her own country. That’s disgraceful – and it’s no wonder that unionist youth is deserting the motherland in search of opportunity, free of this blight, overseas.

  • TAFKABO

    As for TAF’s continuous grievance with Mary McAleese, perhaps he should take it up with her.

    I don’t have any particular grievance with her, I do think she’s slipped up on a few occasions, and shown that she still has some inherent prejudices, but on the whole I think she’s genuine in trying to move beyond them. I’d put her at about the same level as me in this regard.

    He shouldn’t forget however the many statements from leading unionist politicians over the years virtually banning any recognition of Catholics, the likes of Lord Brookeborough saying he wouldn’t employ a Catholic on his estate….

    *sigh*

    I normally try to ignore whataboutery, but I’ll indulge you this time.
    First of all, what on earth does any of that have to to do with me or this thread?
    For my part i think those comments inexcusable and unacceptable, no

    But guess what?

    I’m not that old, and though the Bible talks about the sins of the father being passed sown from generation to generation, I’d like to think that as an atheist I was excused from that nonsense, and that perhaps you’d try to understand that by employing the type of thinking that somehow makes me as a present day unionist responsible or guilty because of what others did in the past, that you’re not too dissimilar from they who practiced such discrimination in the first place.

    one should ever be, or have been treated in that way. that’s all part of the education process.

    Oh absolutely, as i said in my previous comment, unfortunately you seem blind to the fact that you are enforcing a mindset which discriminates between individuals based on their background and ethnicity.

    Is it any wonder that some unionists still harbour feelings of superiority regarding their nationalist fellow citizens of NI???

    Now riddle me this.
    How is it, that as a unionist, and one who is prepared to accept and admit, without resort to rationalisation or whataboutery that discrimination happened in the past, how is it that I have never met in my entire lifetime one unionist who espoused superiority over catholics or their neighbors, and yet all my life I’ve heard people like you telling me that I’m bad for feeling superior to you?

    Let go of your paranoid fantasies, we’ll all get further along if you do.

  • Cahal

    “I think she may even have been entertained recently in a military base in NI. No truth in the rumour that this was to soften up the grunts for a tour to Afghanistan…. ”

    Darth, can you explain what you meant by this?

  • Jo

    “no wonder that unionist youth is deserting the motherland in search of opportunity, free of this blight, overseas.”

    Thats an interesting point, worthy of a thread in its own right. Id like to see some stats.

  • majordolittle

    lighten up Concubhar
    Sure I may have been a bit OTT in some of my posts, it’s obvious I was playing to the gallery.

    Ultimately, I think the view of most here is that she (McAleese) isn’t a patch on Mary Robinson.

    So it goes…

  • Charles in Texas

    Good afternoon Jo and Bonnie Prince!

    I have a song in my heart and a spring in my step today so I shant left you pull me down. Ok, Jo can pull me down!

    Prince T, I realize that the RoI Pres is taking her knocks here. I don’t know much about her, and haven’t commented about her. Remember Princie, we decided that Texans shouldn’t rush in where angels fear to tread! 😉

    My main point was that there was no need for the ad hominum.

    BTW Prince, terrible story about how your kids were treated.

  • Either of the two would be as good a head of state as any country in the world could hope for – comparisons are, as they say, odious.

    As far as TAF’s belated conversion to admitting that there was discrimination (ie unionist discrimination against Catholics), I welcome that. I don’t doubt that this process worked in reverse although, given that unionists had the positions of power in NI, they had the position from which to effect most damage as a result of their discrimination. Present day unionists shouldn’t feel that they are to blame for this – but they shouldn’t try to gloss over what happened either. I have no desire to get ‘biblical’ here – but I feel strongly that Mary McAleese native of Belfast should have a right to visit her native city whenever she pleases, not at the whim of unionists or nationalists, irrespective of her current status as Head of State of Ireland.

  • TAFKABO

    Concubhar

    Describing my views as a belated conversion is rather pathetic on your part.
    I’ve held these views for many a year, most of my adult life in fact. Any change in opinion comes from you having to be force fed the simple truth because you automatically assume views and opinions I don’t and never have held. You’re the one on a journey here mo chara, not me.

    As for Mary, of course she is free to visit Belfast whenever she pleases, however the Irish president is not.
    See the difference?

  • RepublicanStones

    Turgon this part…

    ‘After McAleese’s last set of unacceptable remarks (the infamous “Prods are like Nazis” comments) she had to cancel a visit to Belfast’

    is lies, pure and simple, whats more you know its lies. McAleese never even mentioned the word protestant in her comment. What you and many other unionists have done is disgraceful, particularly when its recorded fact that she never said anything of the like. your post is over a day old, and you have allowed this lies among the other inaccuracy to remain….i have no hesitation in comparing you to Goebbels, as you seem to prefer his penchant for untruths and misdirection. A unionist being compared to a Nazi….quick call the papers.

    What is revealing is the lengths some unionists will go to, to portray innocent comments as something else, even to the point of LYING about the original comment. Nobody likes to hear they have skeletons in the closet, esp from an uppity taig.

  • TAFKABO

    RepublicanStones.

    You’re being typically disingenuous. You take umbrage at the fact that protestants weren’t explicitly mentioned, but also want to claim the attacked because of her religion (“uppity taig”).

    Why are you allowed this luxury of interpretation but others are not?

  • TAFKABO

    s/b

    but also want to claim that McAleese was attacked because of her religion (“uppity taig”).

  • RepublicanStones

    majorknowslittle posted this comment…..

    ‘Some of the nationalist posts on this thread have been a disgrace. Infantile, derogatory and abusive. Those concerned should be embarrassed if they go back and read their comments. I’m quite sure they know who they are.’

    After he had posted this…….

    ‘Quiz Master
    Do you mean “renowned”?
    And non elected is fine. Better than the cornergirl WKD, 20 Mayfair (under the counter) Ardoyne milly.’

    and this lie…..

    ‘She deliberately targeted Protestants as guilty.’

    Who orderd the big steaming hot plate of double standards?
    Come dine with us at Hypocrites fine Greek diner !!!

  • Prince Eoghan

    Taf

    >>Not once have I ever made a connection between the thugs who attacked her and the greater number of people in the nationalist community.< < And thankfully nor should you. Though the little bastards who choose to pick on that bus should face the full wrath of society and the law. I've experienced the same as a kid, it is frightening. >>I do think that Nationalist have a real problem with recognising that sectarianism is a bigger problem from them they they’ve ever been prepared to admit, but I don’t think it defines them as a group.< < Perhaps, however we do not see the outworkings of any of these problems though on any kind of scale. So if indeed it is a major problem, it is kept well hidden notwithstanding the kind of incident that your daughter experienced. I have on the few times that I have witnessed sectarianism emanating from Catholics spoke up, bar one when I was sure me and mine would not have got out alive. Me and mine have been victims on numerous occasions covering a wide spectrum of events over the years. Thankfully these are receding in number as time goes on. >>Unfortunately it seems to me that nationalists are only to eager to define unionism as a whole by the sectarian actions of a few.< < C'mon Taf! Let's get real. We see the outworkings of Unionist sectarianism so often that you kind of a build a mental picture, it becomes the norm, it can't be helped to associate Unionism. Even people that might otherwise be allies in England recognise Unionism as such. The minority you speak of seem to own Unionism, why don't the silent majority ever break free and voice their displeasure? Instead we often have reasonable intelligent people voicing a defence, citing Unionist culture, when in reality they are defending triumphalist bullying thugs. I refer you to a comment I made earlier in the thread; ">>people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred, for example, of Catholics<< I’d say that was fair comment. Would Ireland even be in the position it is in if this were not at least partly true?" I am firmly of the opinion that no matter the grievances of the past, a line should be drawn. I do however object to phantom whataboutery by some posters, playing up minor sectarian events from nationalists or Catholics, eg the GAA. Not that these events are not important in themselves, it just seems to serve to give a spurious vindication of sorts to a Unionist mindset struggling to break free from anti-Catholicism. ie, that mob are doing it so we don't need to change, or my favourite coverall lie that 'one side is as bad as the other' It serves only to put aside uncomfortable realities for another day. A zero tolerance is needed so that no-one has to suffer from this kind of shite. Taf, this is not an attack on Unionism per se, it is a call a spade a spade analysis of a sickness that we all need to work towards eradicating. The good news is that here in Scotland things have come a long way, we still have a fair bit to go, but a consensus has developed.

  • “President McAleese said the anti-semitism that existed for decades had been built upon by the Nazis.

    “They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred, for example, of Catholics, in the same way that people give to their children an outrageous and irrational hatred of those who are of different colour and all of those things,” she said.” … BBC

    Eoghan, perhaps it was the silence about her own ‘tribe’ that speaks volumes as well as the linkage of Protestants to Nazis. You could put it down as loose talk, a slip of the tongue but a nasty one.

  • UFB

    “McAleese was given her position at the Institute of Professional Legal Studies because Queens needed to appoint a Roman Catholic at that time to assuage their image. Whether she deserved it is a matter of conjecture”

    I’d be interested to see your evidence to verify that allegation Major. Either way if you’re suggesting that she got the post on account of her religion it still doesn’t detract from the fact that she had to be suitably qualified for the job. That doesn’t say much for your “ill educated” remark does it?

    “A non-practising lawyer heading up the faculty that gives practical training was a bizarre appointment. Her rival for the post- an obscure lecturer called..er David Trimble… had at least been a barrister for a time before his transfer to academia”

    Not true Darthy. President McAleese was called to The Bar in 1973 and didn’t take up her appointment with IPLS until 1987. You do the maths!

    “No children should have to experience such things – regardless of their background”

    Good man P&J;, for once I’m in absolute agreement with what you say.

    No doubt you’ll have no problems then in joining me in condemning the disgraceful Holy Cross “protest” and all those involved in it?

  • PeaceandJustice

    Concubhar O Liatháin – “As far as TAF’s belated conversion to admitting that there was discrimination (ie unionist discrimination against Catholics), I welcome that. I don’t doubt that this process worked in reverse although, given that unionists had the positions of power in NI, they had the position from which to effect most damage as a result of their discrimination.”

    Of course you conveniently forget about the discrimination against Protestants in the RoI – in the territory Mrs McAleese represents.

    Irish Independent May 09 2005:

    Protestants in south claim discrimination

    A SIGNIFICANT number of Protestants living in southern border counties believe they are discriminated against because of their religious identity, a new report has revealed.

    Some 23pc of respondents to a survey said they had suffered mainly verbal abuse that had occurred primarily in their work and within educational establishments.

    The survey, carried out as part of a report called ‘Border Protestant Perspectives’, funded by the EU programme for peace and reconciliation, looked at the perceptions of Protestants in the counties of Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, Cavan, Monaghan and Louth.

  • EWI

    Following Mary McAleese’s intervention linking a visit by the Queen to the RoI to devolution of policing and justice (later confirmed as Dublin government policy) there was universal anger from unionists

    Can someone please enlighten me as to wtf a visit by a British Queen to what the Orange residents of Norn Iron continue to refer to as a foreign state is any of thyeir fracking business? Or is ‘Turgon’, like some of his fellow countrymen, simply intent on inventing offence?

  • EWI

    And the discrimination suffered by Protestants in Eire is ignored.

    Perhaps our little Orange friend here can point to some of that “discrimination”, as no-one else seems to have noticed it here, including Protestant members of the Dáil.

  • PeaceandJustice

    UFB – “No doubt you’ll have no problems then in joining me in condemning the disgraceful Holy Cross ‘protest’ and all those involved in it?”

    Of course. As I said, no children should have to experience such things. But the silence of Pan-Nationalists regarding incidents affecting Protestant children is disappointing if not surprising. In my post above, I mention how Sinn Fein PIRA put a bomb under a school bus seriously injuring a Protestant child. In the same constituency Sinn Fein PIRA also murdered Protestant George Saunderson in a school in Derrylin. What about the effect on those children?

    No apology from these thugs even though they are now in positions of power. And as Nevin says about McAleese “perhaps it was the silence about her own ‘tribe’ that speaks volumes as well as the linkage of Protestants to Nazis.”

  • TAFKABO

    “our little orange friend here”

    Ask yourself what this tone and terminology is saying?

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>Some 23pc of respondents to a survey said they had suffered mainly verbal abuse that had occurred primarily in their work and within educational establishments.< < This actually says quite a lot for peace and harmony between Catholics and Prods in the Republic. Contrast the treatment travellers, people of colour, disabled, gay etc..... you get the picture. Well done that man! >>“our little orange friend here”<< ie P&J;for prods. Well Taf if we were going for colour association, I'd think orange too, though not in the friendly cuddly Dutch type of cuddly. More the intransigent belligerent orange, who throws in nonsense statistics and idiotic claims. How long before we get the old genocide and ethnic cleansing nonsense? Can't we get past this shite? Nevin You have illustrated in the past your questionable feelings for the Nationalist electorate. We are never going to agree on that one, nor I suspect are we about the depth of the problem of sectarianism amongst Nationalists. Me, I would stamp on it from a great height.

  • PeaceandJustice

    To EWI – In the civil service in Donegal only one per cent are Protestant – even though they make up 11% of the population. Also, in the RoI, less than 20 out 12,500 members of An Garda Síochána are Protestant – the highest-ranking one being a sergeant. Although they don’t seem to keep very good records on the matter – handy that.

    Perhaps Mrs McAleese should concern herself with these matters instead of interfering in another state.

  • Of course there was anti Protestant discrimination in the south – that doesn’t make the anti Catholic discrimination, the institutionalised discrimination in the north, right does it?

    We can swap atrocities all night – young Patrick Rooney was killed in his bed by the B Specials as they supported with machine guns the pogroms of 1969….

    But the real testament as to the failure of the ‘Protestant Parliament for a Protestant People’ came in 1972 when it was prorogued by the British.

  • Prince Eoghan

    I should point out that I was not saying that it is ok to abuse anyone in the work place, but I reckon much of this passes for banter. And probably Prods here in Scotland would have a higher percentage than 23%. I suppose it’s all in the context.

  • UFB

    A few things P&J;, firstly, well done in condemning the Holy Cross disgrace, I have to admit you surprised me on that one.

    Now, regarding your

    “But the silence of Pan-Nationalists regarding incidents affecting Protestant children is disappointing if not surprising”

    I’d like you to first define “Pan Nationalists”, [I’ve an idea of what you mean but for clarity’s sake I’d like a definition]. I’d also like you to provide examples of this as, if I’m correct in who you define as “ Pan Nationalists” I’m pretty sure that that’snot the case.

    “In my post above, I mention how Sinn Fein PIRA put a bomb under a school bus seriously injuring a Protestant child”

    That’s simply not true:

    “Foster might also have recalled how, as a schoolgirl, she had to get off the school bus after a bomb was discovered under it”

    No one was injured according to this report:

    http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/News_letter/arts2008/apr3_hard_swallow_HET__LClarke.php

    However, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever condemning such acts which, [truthfully or otherwise], traumatise children.

    Unlike, it would seem, some Unionist politicians

    “In September 2001, as the school resumed after the summer holidays, the violence exploded, and a pipe bomb was thrown into the crowd. Hutchinson said he was ashamed and appalled. But the Paisleyite MP Nigel Dodds argued that loyalists felt unheeded and “didn’t care any more”. Unionists opposed a resolution from the Northern Ireland Assembly supporting the Holy Cross pupils’ right to an education”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/dec/01/northernireland.faithschools

  • “You have illustrated in the past your questionable feelings for the Nationalist electorate.”

    How so, Eoghan? Shared sovereignty gives equality to the two political aspirations.

    Some commentators attempt to limit sectarianism to the religious kind but I don’t see the need to take such a narrow view. Also, my targets have been fairly wide ranging and certainly not limited to malevolent expressions of Nationalism.

    I don’t think sectarianism can be stamped out but it needs to be curbed and I do think you can build structures and organisations that allow it to wither.

  • PeaceandJustice

    To UFB – the Fermanagh school bus bomb definitely did happen. And a child was seriously injured. One of the many sectarian acts carried out by Sinn Fein PIRA in that border county:
    http://www.factni.co.uk/thehannahfamily.htm
    “It also follows another major ‘error’ by the IRA last month when a schoolgirl was seriously injured in a bomb explosion on a bus in Lisnaskea, Fermanagh.” (I would suggest that when someone puts a bomb under a school bus, the word ‘error’ doesn’t come into it).

    The Sinn Fein PIRA murder machine didn’t care if Protestant children were caught up in the violence. On the same day as the Enniskillen bombing, Sinn Fein PIRA also placed a bomb near the Remembrance service in Tullyhommon but it failed to explode.

    There was a very limited security force presence at that parade. Those taking part were overwhelmingly young people – around 200 members of the local boys’ and girls’ brigades.

    Mrs McAleese must have a bad memory when it comes to hate crimes carried out by Sinn Fein PIRA.

    As regards Holy Cross, some Unionist politicians may have explained the background to the dispute and the role of Sinn Fein PIRA agitators, but no children should have to experience such things.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘You’re being typically disingenuous. You take umbrage at the fact that protestants weren’t explicitly mentioned, but also want to claim the attacked because of her religion (“uppity taig”).

    Why are you allowed this luxury of interpretation but others are not?’

    TAF there is a big difference between believeing what the reasons behind certain peoples reactions are and saying someone said something which they clearly did not. you must have missed the part where i said ‘the lengths some unionists will go to’…..
    notice the ‘some’? undoubtedly some unionists do take issue with Mrs McAleese’s religion, particularly the orange kind i’d venture. And so no doubt used her innocent comments to try and damage her. Sad and pathetic. to interpret McAleese’s comment (which is easy to find) as her saying all protestants in the north are nazi’s’
    says a lot more about the individual twisting such an innocent comment to fit a nefarious agenda. as i said before, nobody likes to hear hear about their own skeletons. I forgive you for the childish ‘typically disingenous’ remark.

  • TAFKABO

    undoubtedly some unionists do take issue with Mrs McAleese’s religion,

    Sorry, I reject this idea totally, insofar as it suggests there exists a section of Unionism obsessed with religion. Unionist are no more obsessed with religion than nationalists are, that is to say you’ll find some people in every large group with certain traits if you look hard enough.
    You make the above statement with an air of authority which suggests you think it’s a truism that unionists are bound to be anti catholic, and as a unionist I find that offensive.
    It’s like saying black people like to eat water melon then trying to weasel out of it by claiming you didn’t mean all black people.
    And as for claiming her remarks were ‘innocent’?

    Innocent of what exactly?

    I’ll give her more credit that assuming her stupid, she knows only too well the power of language in a place like Northern Ireland, I can’t accept she didn’t know how her remarks would be interpreted, or that years later people would we saying she was right to make a comparison between Unionist and the Nazis.
    Oh, but you say, she didn’t make a comparison with the Nazis.
    Yeah, funny how you say that to the Unionists who take offence, but are content to let the nationalists in this thread who saw that comparison and praised her for making it, you somehow let them go without correcting them.

    And you wonder why I used the term disingenuous ?

  • Billy

    “PeaceandJustice”

    “Yet Pan-Nationalists keep coming on here telling us they are the most oppressed people ever and no one suffered except them”

    Unlike you, of course. You constantly come on here ranting about Sinn Fein, the IRA and Catholics in general. You constantly list (as demonstrated above) tales of IRA violence and the victims.

    Oddly enough, you extremely rarely, if ever, condemn “loyalist” terrorism and you are totally insincere about it anyway. You never never give any graphic details of “loyalist” terrorist attacks on Catholic, women and children. This assumes of course that you accept that they ever happened.

    Anyone would think that you were trying to create the impression that all violence was IRA and that no innocent Catholics (assuming you don’t consider those terms to be mutually exclusive) were murdered by sectarian “loyalist” terrorists.

    Your attitude is almost identical to George Seawright.

    He may have been a bigot and a hypocrite but, to give him his due, he had the guts to say what he thought and didn’t insult anyone’s intelligence.

    In that respect, you differ from him. Same attitude but no guts.

  • Gréagóir O’ Frainclín

    PeaceandJustice suffers exceedingly from the ‘MOPEry’ complex, and yet he is all to willing to point the finger and accuse Irish Nationalists/Catholics of suffering from the same. (Well at least the Irish Nationalist can rant on about 800 years of it, if ye wanna be like that).

    But Peace&Justice;is always going on with the ‘whataboutry’ factor, and yet accuses Irish Nationalists of always doing the same.

    Peace&Justice;…perhaps the Most Oppressed Person Ever!

    Regarding President McAleese’s Nazi comments it was in the heat of unsettling events at the time that she had issued such comments. We had had the Drumcree debacle, Holy Cross and the Harryville Catholic Church protests by Unionist/Orange mobs which painted the Unionists in an intolerable and uncomprimising light. Remember too, that McAleese grew up in Ulster and witnessed first hand, discrimination by the ruling Orange Unionists.

    What’s that bit from the Glorious Revolution about ‘Civil and religious liberties for all’…etc.
    The antic mentioned above by a so called law abiding Christian folk were not very Christian now were they?

  • UFB

    “Mrs McAleese must have a bad memory when it comes to hate crimes carried out by Sinn Fein PIRA”

    Why? What makes you say that?

    “As regards Holy Cross, some Unionist politicians may have explained the background to the dispute and the role of Sinn Fein PIRA agitators, but no children should have to experience such things”

    Did you not read the link supplied?

    “But the Paisleyite MP Nigel Dodds argued that loyalists felt unheeded and “didn’t care any more”.

    “Unionists opposed a resolution from the Northern Ireland Assembly supporting the Holy Cross pupils’ right to an education”

    As regards “Sinn Fein PIRA agitators” you obviously didn’t read this account from a Glenbryn resident:

    “But according to one loyalist woman who says she saw it all, “it’s lies, they didn’t drive at the ladder”. Gail Blundell is from Glenbryn, the loyalist estate in which the school is situated. She says that parents began arriving at around 2pm to collect children from Holy Cross. The car drove on, she says, and the UDA lads threw the ladder at the back window of the car. It screeched to a halt, the men got out, and instantly there was fighting; “All hell let loose.”

  • Prince Eoghan

    Nevin

    >>“You have illustrated in the past your questionable feelings for the Nationalist electorate.”

    How so, Eoghan?< < How soon you forget, you claimed that Nationalists would have elected one of the Shankhill butchers if they were Nationalists. >>I don’t think sectarianism can be stamped out but it needs to be curbed and I do think you can build structures and organisations that allow it to wither.< < Well I would advocate your approach also, however strong messages reinforced from community, sporting heroes and government should run in conjunction with stiff sentences/fines for those who offend. P&J4Prods;>>As regards Holy Cross, some Unionist politicians may have explained the background to the dispute and the role of Sinn Fein PIRA agitators, but no children should have to experience such things.<< You are no spin doktor pal. As effective as Unionists claiming they were victims whilst screaming at 6 year old girls they were hoors and sluts and throwing bags of piss over them.

  • PeaceandJustice

    To Billy – As usual you try to make your posts personally offensive. You really don’t like me mentioning Sinn Fein PIRA crimes. I guess you would like all Unionists to keep quiet and let you rewrite history. I also mentioned Holy Cross – but don’t let that get in the way of your rants. Although you don’t want to listen, I’ll repeat again: I don’t support or have never supported terrorism.

    UFB – “Why? What makes you say that?” ref “Mrs McAleese must have a bad memory when it comes to hate crimes carried out by Sinn Fein PIRA”

    She comes out with statements like: “They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred, for example, of Catholics”. Yet there is no balance in her statements. No mention of Protestant children injured or murdered by Sinn Fein PIRA hate gangs. No mention of Protestant children having their headmaster murdered in their school by Sinn Fein PIRA hate gangs.

    In fact, the same is true for a lot of Pan-Nationalist posters on here. They just can’t bring themselves to condemn Sinn Fein PIRA or to discuss their hate crimes. Instead any perceived injustice against them must be talked about endlessly. The Most Oppressed People Ever. And if you don’t agree with that – they reserve the right to murder you.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘It’s like saying black people like to eat water melon then trying to weasel out of it by claiming you didn’t mean all black people.’

    Groan….

    Im beginning to think you haven’t even see her original comment TAF

    ‘Oh, but you say, she didn’t make a comparison with the Nazis.’

    again do you read the posts? She compared the ‘irrational hatred’ of others.
    You like others seem to be unable to tell the diff between comparison and equivalence.

    ‘but are content to let the nationalists in this thread who saw that comparison and praised her for making it, you somehow let them go without correcting them.’

    those who pointed out the factual reality in her comment need no correction. Are you saying people didn’t teach an irrational hatred of others in the north????????????

    still….. i won’t wait on your apology.

  • Eoghan, some nationalists voted for members of the PRM Army Council and they directed activities that IMO were on a par with those of the Shankill Butchers.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>activities that IMO were on a par with those of the Shankill Butchers.<< *shakes heid* Increase the dose Nevin. Whilst some of these activities were indeed shameful, they bore little in the way of comparison to the butchers bar the end result. You had your chance to speak up about this subject previously and chose not to, notwithstanding the eventual outrageous claim that Nationalists would have elected the shankill butchers.

  • UFB

    “She comes out with statements like: “They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred, for example, of Catholics”. Yet there is no balance in her statements. No mention of Protestant children injured or murdered by Sinn Fein PIRA hate gangs. No mention of Protestant children having their headmaster murdered in their school by Sinn Fein PIRA hate gangs”

    She spoke about religious hatred and the only two groups specifically mentioned were Jews and Catholics why should she mention any of the incidents you allege above any more than she should mention incidents like children being murdered at McGurks bar or Dublin/Monagahan?

    “In fact, the same is true for a lot of Pan-Nationalist posters on here. They just can’t bring themselves to condemn Sinn Fein PIRA or to discuss their hate crimes. Instead any perceived injustice against them must be talked about endlessly”

    I’m going to make an assumption here P&J;and suggest that you would consider me a “Pan Nationalist”, [I can’t be definitive on that assumption as you still haven’t provided an explanation as to what you consider a “Pan Nationalist”].
    Go back to my 10.43 and tell me which part of:
    “However, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever condemning such acts which, [truthfully or otherwise], traumatise children”
    You don’t understand?

    While we’re on my 10.43 the link that you supplied to the alleged bus bomb /schoolgirl injury doesn’t work in the absence of any other proof the link provided by me states that no one was injured – contrary to your claims.

  • TAFKABO

    Republicanstones.

    Here’s the funny thing, for all your defence of of the President’s comments in that interview, she is the one who, when apologising, said that her critics were correct.

    She said she was “personally absolutely devastated” by the furore, that her critics had been “absolutely right” and acknowledged she had been clumsy and had hurt people.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4217545.stm

    So, do I go with you, or do I trust my own judgement, and te fact that Macaleese herself says i am right in my judgement?

    You’re right about one thing though, you’d be wasting your time waiting for an apology.

  • Eoghan, barbarity in West Belfast, South Armagh or anywhere else is still barbarity. I don’t vote for the political accomplices; I leave that to the ‘moral’ electorate.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Nevin

    We will leave ‘on a par’ aside as an honestly held opinion as I do not believe that it is able to be substantiated. I know you are fond of the Paisley’s(who isn’t?) but who do you vote for now, or have you voted for in the past? You see it will enable me to see if you can justify @11.26., and not just being nosey. Thanks!

  • UFB

    Touch of the DVitis Nevin?

    http://atangledweb.squarespace.com/httpatangledwebsquarespace/the-law-and-the-lawless.html#comments

    “Eoghan, barbarity in West Belfast, South Armagh or anywhere else is still barbarity”

    I’m going to presume that your end qualifier is an abhorrence of barbarity however why did you only choose areas with a high Nationalist / Republican electorate as examples of this barbarity?

  • RepublicanStones

    TAF heres the funny thing, she agreed that the remarks were clumsy, and said she should have gone on to balance the statement, but also she said she was not equating protestants with nazi’s, which is what certain unionists have claimed. now heres another funny thing, if you go with her why are you complaining about it still? is an apology from her (unwarranted in my opinion) not enough to your sensitive soul, or is there something else which irks you ??????????? hmmmmmmm!

  • Eoghan, I wonder if my name gets mentioned in the Paisley households, following their fall from grace!!

    I voted down the list for Paisley and Hume in the distant past but that was before I had taken a closer interest in politics and political history. They both played significant roles in destabilising society here and this unleashed the mobs so they got dropped from my list. I vote across the UUP-SDLP spectrum but I have to say that I’m not spoilt for choice 🙁

  • UFB, Eoghan was talking about the Shankill Butchers and they were ‘operating’ in West Belfast.

  • TAFKABO

    Republicanstones.

    I thought her apology was gracious and courageous, but that’s not the point being made here.
    O also said in previous , but she does let her inherent predjudices get the better of herself on occasion. on this thread that I think she has good intentions

    or is there something else which irks you?

    How many times on this thread alone have we had you and others claim or allude to some secret workings of the thought processes of Unionists?
    Everything that irks me will be posted here in black and white, anything else is a product of your overdeveloped sense of paranoia and victimhood, that’s your problem, not mine.

  • UFB

    But not South Armagh?

    Their main killing ground was the maze of streets around the Millfield – Clifton St area of North Belfast.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>I don’t vote for the political accomplices; I leave that to the ‘moral’ electorate.< < >>I vote across the UUP-SDLP< < Well playing devils advocate, with wallpaper and what not stories of the past, and the recent PUP alliance, and the Unionist repugnance for the SDLP ushering in a now dominant SF. Fooled once eh! >>I’m not spoilt for choice<< I'm amazed that given the current climate there is not a more forward thinking, more Liberal party emerging to appeal to Unionists......... Ah I see you have responded to DC's comments on the 'bible belt thread.

  • UFB

    Sorry, the above should read ‘hunting ground’

  • “I think she has good intentions”

    TAF, why on earth is she endorsing organisations like the Finaghy Crossroads Group, a seemingly cross-paramilitary collective?

  • RepublicanStones

    TAF just because your paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not after you.
    and i was merely asking a question.
    I wouldn’t take at face value the actions of everyone TAF, you might think that a problem, i think it a way of advoiding problems.

  • UFB, thanks for the correction, I should have said operating from. I don’t know the precise boundaries in Belfast and would have guessed that Millfield was in West Belfast.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>Eoghan, I wonder if my name gets mentioned in the Paisley households, following their fall from grace!!<< Lol! I wonder if you are held in the same high esteem in that household, as the fella that UFB has associated you with, is held by the 'moral guardians' here on slugger, as opposed to the electorate. I doubt it!

  • Ian

    “Isn’t Jackie McDonald a Protestant Major?”

    ‘Should there be a comma there’

    “Attacking the presentation rather than the substance of a comment is a sure sign of losing an argument.”

    For the record I want to defend this particular piece of pedantry. Without the comma, and to this casual reader who initially didn’t notice that one of the contributors uses the pseudonym ‘Major'[Doolittle], the statement appears to give credence to the notion that the UDA is a professional army of some sorts, with Major McDonald at the helm. So the comma was critical to the structure of the statement and its absence was very disorienting to the debate!

  • How fooled, Eoghan? I was very disappointed that the UUP and the SDLP have dallied with the PUP and SF respectively – but I wanted to give the centre ground some support.

    The 50%+1 thingy and governments appeasement of the bully boys IMO means few votes for liberal candidates in either ‘tribe’.

  • Prince Eoghan

    I meant fooled by your early support of Paisley, which would be at odds with your newer beliefs once you took a closer interest, ach you know what I mean.

    BTW I am no great fan of SF, but they seem to have been polarised(I accept by some of their own actions) despite wishing to appeal to liberals and working classes across the divide.

  • TAFKABO

    TAF, why on earth is she endorsing organisations like the Finaghy Crossroads Group, a seemingly cross-paramilitary collective?

    Maybe for similar reasons as we all voted to let killers out of jail?
    People can make difficult choices for good reasons, even if we don’t agree with them.

  • Eoghan, I don’t think my down the list ‘support’ for Paisley and Hume counted for much; our/my cross-community activities were more important and more rewarding.

  • TAF, I voted for a lot more than early release. I don’t think I can be blamed for the later appeasement actions of the governments. Nimbyism can hardly be presented as a ‘good’ reason.

  • Sure It’s Himself

    ‘The Duke of Edinburgh is not a racist.
    He may be a bit of a bumbler (aka Boris Johnson)’

    Since Boris Johnson a) routinely uses a pejorative racist term (‘piccaninny’) to describe black Africans, bemoans the fact that white people aren’t in charge of Africa anymore, portrays Africans as people who think that an airplane is a ‘big white bird,’ calls Nelson Mandela a ‘tyrant,’ has admitted to distributing the racist poem that caused Tory councillor Eleanor Bland to be deselected, described the introduction of on-the-job diversity training into the Met following the MacPherson report as ‘worse than the worst excesses of Ceaucescu’s Romania’ and adopts a curious faux-pidgin speech pattern when he’s writing about Africa, it’s much more likely that he is in fact a racist than, as you say, “a bumbler.”

    This is not to express an opinion on whether or not Phil is a racist, just to say that the argument “like Boris Johnson, he’s not a racist” is fundamentally flawed.

  • majordolittle

    What nonsense. A few ill judged remarks do not make someone a racist. Personally, I would like to see Boris as secretary of state for NI.
    He is a brilliant politician.

  • Sure It’s Himself

    “What nonsense. A few ill judged remarks do not make someone a racist. Personally, I would like to see Boris as secretary of state for NI.
    He is a brilliant politician.”

    We are not talking about a few ill-judged remarks, here, we are talking about an entire journalistic and political career.

    That said, in the context of this thread, I’m delighted to see you have such a forgiving attitude to “a few ill-judged remarks.” Does that mean that you’ve changed your stance on President McAleese?

    Or do they only count as “a few ill-judged remarks” if they’re said by people with whom you ideologically identify?

  • majordolittle

    I think Boris Johnson is a decent bloke. from a decent background. we need more like him.

    McAleese never will be in the same league, in terms of ability, or keeping her bigoted trap shut. we need less of her ilk.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘from a decent background’

    meaning not catholic/nationalist/republican/irish (delete as app)

    ‘McAleese never will be in the same league’

    quite right as a President she is quite a few above him and will always remain so.

  • Steve

    Minor Knows Little

    You havent been upto Ballymena sampling the fare of your pals in the uda have you?

  • majordolittle

    I have no knowledge of Boris’ religious convictions, if any. Not relevant.
    If he becomes Mayor of London, as i sincerely hope he does, he will have a lot more power and influence than the shellsuit in Dublin Castle.

    I believe him to be the best politician on the mainland, apart from David Cameron.

    I have no pals in the UDA or any other terrorist organisation.

  • RepublicanStones

    what shellsuit in Dublin Castle?

    shows the extent of your knowledge majorknowslittle

    Áras an Uachtaráin is not Dublin Castle

  • majordolittle

    Wherever….
    As long as there is a mini-mart nearby where she can get her Buckfast and Lambert and Butler.

    Aras an thingy no doubt also has a Primark nearby.

  • RepublicanStones

    majorknowsfuckallindeed

    ‘McAleese never will be in the same league, in terms of ability’

    this about a man who has never held a ministerial post, and is only an MP for about 6-7 years. who is an unrepentant bigot/racist/liar, and who is only publicly well known because of his foot-in-mouth syndrome…sure major, a great man no doubt !

    many thanks minordonothing for actaully revealing alot about yourself through your unadulterated approval of this pot bellied bigot !

  • majordolittle

    A pathetic ad hominem attack on one of the greatest political minds of our generation. Jealous of his intellect RS? resorting to cheap unsubstantiated assaults on his character.

    I think most readers will be disgusted or saddened at your malicious bletherings.

  • RepublicanStones

    Boris Johnson and intellect……theres a thought !

  • foreign correspondent

    ´´A pathetic ad hominem attack on one of the greatest political minds of our generation´´.
    Is this a windup? Coming from the person who has been consistently dragging this thread into the gutter with cheap, classist and almost unbelievably unfunny jibes againt Mary McAleese:
    ´Buckfast´, ´shellsuit´ etc. If any is making pathetic ad hominem attacks it is you.

  • foreign correspondent

    ´´A pathetic ad hominem attack on one of the greatest political minds of our generation´´.
    Is this a windup? Coming from the person who has been consistently dragging this thread into the gutter with cheap, classist and almost unbelievably unfunny jibes againt Mary McAleese:
    ´Buckfast´, ´shellsuit´ etc. If anyone is making pathetic ad hominem attacks it is you.

  • majordolittle

    Foreign Correspondent

    I accept some of my remarks were a bit “classist” on reflection. However, classism is not necessarily a bad thing. Are you from the lower orders yourself? I do consider myself upper middle, and this may colour my judgement at times.
    However, look at the difference between that commie prole Livingstone, and his decent minded challenger for London Mayor, a man of impeccable character and disposition. Who would you rather have in charge?

  • Steve

    I do not know much about Boris Johnson but isnt he just a vacant blondes smile in a vacant blonde head? Intelect? Surely you jest

  • Paul

    “They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred, for example, of Catholics, in the same way that people give to their children an outrageous and irrational hatred of those who are of different colour and all of those things,”

    I couldn’t put it better myself.

    Stoneyford, Donegall Road, Harryville etc

  • TAFKABO

    a man of impeccable character and disposition.

    You think nothing of having an affair then and betraying the person who you married, and who is raising your children?

    If he is willing to put the stability of his children’s home on the line, just to get his leg over, what makes you think he would treat the electorate with more respect?
    Impeccable character my arse.

  • majordolittle

    TAFKABO
    is there any proof in this allegation?

    He was educated at Eton and Balliol College, Oxford. President of the Oxford Union

    He has been shadow minister for higher education, editor of The Spectator. Other achievements too numberous to mention.

    His private life is not remotely relevant even if he did indulge in a spot of “playing away”.
    Hopefully he will get the mayorship. Ideally I would like to see him as secretary of state for NI. The electorate here would probably be astonished to get such a star player at Stormont Castle.

  • TAFKABO

    If his private life is of no relevance, then why are you playing up the (false) claim that he is of impeccable character?
    His marital infidelity is a matter of public record, as is his soliciting of someone to beat up a journalist.

    What makes people like you craven lickspittles of anyone with a plummy accent and the correct school tie?

  • majordolittle

    TAFKABO
    That’s a bit mean. He’s only human, a few minor indiscretions.
    In my view he has probably the greatest vision and political outlook of anyone alive. The only people who come close are David Cameron, Ariel Sharon (yes i know only technically alive) and Tim Collins, who has the potential to be PM if only he would enter politics.
    I believe Tim Collins to be the greatest living Ulsterman. What an inspiration to all young people in Northern Ireland, of all political hues.

  • Dr Strangelove

    majordolittle:

    “I believe Tim Collins to be the greatest living Ulsterman”

    That is quite a claim majory baby.. great than…

    Alex Higgins
    Denis Taylor
    Big Ian
    Slab Murphy
    or even… Gina Adair ?

  • Dr Strangelove

    majordolittle:

    “I believe Tim Collins to be the greatest living Ulsterman”

    That is quite a claim majory baby.. greater than…

    Alex Higgins
    Denis Taylor
    Big Ian
    Slab Murphy
    or even… Gina Adair ?

  • Dr Strangelove

    … oops …

  • majordolittle

    Yes, Dr Strangelove
    Even greater than Bob McCartney, who comes 2nd.

  • Dr Strangelove

    Mayory Wajory.. As a judge of character I do not think I have ever come across anyone so insightful…

  • majordolittle

    Thank you
    Many of the posts here have been distasteful and antagonistic. And in poor taste.
    It’s good to know that many in Northern Ireland, the great majority I think, are of the same mindset as myself.
    I should say though that I found Bob to be a tiny bit arrogant at times.
    And some from the nationalist community may have thought him slightly overbearing. Someone like Tim Collins is probably regarded as a hero by both communities in NI.

  • majordolittle

    I should add, Dr Strangelove
    Greatest living Ulsterwoman…

    Mary Peters or Christine Bleakley.
    Zoe Salmon running close 2nd with Rose Neill.

    What do you think?

  • PBR Streetgang

    1. Christine, a national treasure.
    2. Arlene Foster