Two pieces of blue touch paper

A Fermanagh GAA player and journalist has called for a more substantial push to make the GAA more attractive to Unionists including changing Rule 2. Martin O’Neill and Pat Jennings have expressed support for an All-Ireland football team.

  • barnshee

    Some lovely juxtaposition here

    “plenty of Prods play in Ireland, they don’t seem to have a problem that the majority of their team mates are Catholics, do you? As for exclusive, bullshit! Please show me where anyone would be excluded if they tried to join the GAA? ”

    (I mean GAA bullshit and plenty of prods)

    No protestant worthy of the name would/will join the sectarian organisation OWKA the GAA –look at your rule book.

    “plenty of Prods” –The population of the ROI is approx 4% prod. Unless they all man, woman and child play GAA sports there can be no material protestant participation. ( I think they may have 1 or is it two Prods playing in th3e north)

    Bullshit indeed

  • “No protestant worthy of the name would/will join the sectarian organisation OWKA the GAA”

    Instead they’ll join a million times worse sectarian, anachronistic bunch of dour fuckers called the Orange Order.

  • willowfield

    CLADYCOWBOY

    Yeah, and as i pointed out we’re not in 1968 anymore so the sight of a tricolour shouldn’t cause this allergic reaction.

    It doesn’t cause an allergic reaction: it merely indicates that the GAA is a nationalist organisation and therefore not for unionists.

    Really?

    Yes.

    Would you classify the Scouts as an exclusionary organisation? I ask because as a teenager i joined up and not only had to be ok with the fact there was a Union Jack in our Scout Hall but actually had to unfurl it every week and stand in front of it pledging allegiance to the British monarch.

    We never did that in our scout troop.

    I could have bemoaned being excluded and not undergo this monarchial lipservice (many times more demanding than any GAA spectator would have to endure) but i’d have missed out on all the rest of the fun. Small price to pay for me. Am i just less republican than you are unionist or am i just more respectful of others beliefs whilst in their house?

    If I lived in the Republic, and joined the Scouts, I wouldn’t object to them unfurling the Tricolour.

    DUB

    ok, good. last question: would you accept, in the context of the statement i suggested, that the gaa could pursue one of 2 policies in relation to flags and emblems: fly both flags (ie tricolour and ni flag (you know the one i mean)) or just fly province of ulster flag (you know the one i mean) at matches in 6 or perhaps 9 counties. and likewise could look for an ulster only anthem in ulster (danny boy?) or play 2 anthems. i ask this question because in general i know you will say (at least i think so) yes yes that’s fine, but i want to know specifically could you get over the tricolour being flown by the gaa in northern ireland if always flown together with, for example, the ni flag? or would you insist on primacy of british sovereignty in ni and that therefore, in order to attract unonists, the tricolour would have to be dtiched altogether in northern ireland? i’m asking you this not to look for disagreement but to see how far you might be prepared to go, too.

    There’s no reason to fly the Southern tricolour in NI – unless, say, it was being used to represent a Southern county playing against a Northern county. The solution is to adopt an all-Ireland flag and fly it throughout the island.

    CARTOUCHE

    The GAA does not prevent catholics, protestants, nationalists or unionists from joining. If a protestant unionist wanted to join the GAA they could. That is not exclusion. Unless you can point to the rule that states a protestant, a unionist or a protestant-unionist cannot join the GAA then the GAA is not excluding them.

    You don’t have to have an explicit ban in order to exclude people.

    PRINCE EOGHAN

    The GAA does not exclude anyone, some Unionists perhaps exclude themselves because they cannot look past one of the central ethos ie. to promote a united Ireland.

    It does exclude people: it excludes unionists by virtue of being a nationalist organisation.

    How dare the GAA dare to champion Gaelic culture and Irish nationalism, I mean how dare they!

    No-one is objecting to them promoting “Gaelic culture” or Irish nationalism: the debate is whether the latter is necessary, and whether the latter is more important than reaching out and including all Irish people. You seem to have completely missed the point of the discussion.

  • roger

    The IFA only seem interested in promoting the unionist culture.

    Why else would they play unionist anthems and fly unionist flags at international games?

    They have also consistently failed to take action against clubs whose premises are used for political events or when clubs commemorate people like uvf/pup leader David Ervine, knowing full well that the opposition supporters may well have suffered at the hands of uvf terrorists.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Willow

    >>It does exclude people: it excludes unionists by virtue of being a nationalist organisation.< < Boring nonsense, anyone including Unionist who wished to join could, full stop. An organisation that is unashamedly pro-Nationalist is not committing any crime. Indeed some Unionist organisations could learn a thing or two about being non-belligerent to others not sharing their outlook. Being pro something is much less distasteful than hating all of the time. >>No-one is objecting to them promoting “Gaelic culture” or Irish nationalism: the debate is whether the latter is necessary, and whether the latter is more important than reaching out and including all Irish people. You seem to have completely missed the point of the discussion.< < First of all I am having my own discussion with you, and saying I am missing the point smacks of utter cheek considering your obsessions. The GAA does not need to reach out and be all things to all people. Kensei used the word 'rape' earlier, I would put it like hassling one party(GAA) to remove all of their clothes. Even though the other party(Unionist hardliners) have no intention of looking upon the newly defrocked. What is the point if the Unionist hardliners have no intentions of consummating the relationship in the first place? What is the bloody point of it? I'd guess that it is because it is a healthy living symbol of Gaelic Irish culture. And it has to go! How fucking dare they eh? Barnshee >>No protestant worthy of the name would/will join the sectarian organisation OWKA the GAA –look at your rule book.< < Do you know many Prods from the Republic? enlighten yourself, and while you are at it wipe away the froth foaming at your mouth, you might frighten the weans. >>“plenty of Prods” –The population of the ROI is approx 4% prod.< < Big wow! does that mean that plenty of them don't play GAA? I myself met a few in Donegal the other summer. No hang ups, no problems. In fact the only reason I found out was because I asked the people I was with if considering the plethora of Prod churches thereabouts if there was a sizeable population. It would not have been mentioned otherwise, civilised people. >>Bullshit indeed<< Yep that just about sums up your hysterical contribution.

  • “Rofl! You are a British Nationalist, else you would believe in World Government.”

    I am not. I believe in the maintenance of a multi-national state (the UK). I believe that nationality (whatever that is) should not be the default prerequisite for ordering a state.

    “Okay, I accept the point about requiring a declaration to pursue certain political beliefs being a prerequisite to joining. I could see how that could offer difficultly”

    Good. Progress.

    “Why can you not accept it as it is? Why is a proudly Irish GAA lessor than some watered down “inclusive” one that removes all its symbols and breaks from its history?”

    I have not suggested that the GAA should water down its “proudly Irish” ethos. On the contrary I have expressed the opinion that the GAA should remain “proudly Irish and Gaelic”. Removing the Irish tricolour from games played in Northern Ireland would not diminish the proudly Irish dimension of the GAA, only the proudly Irish nationalist dimension. Same for the anthem. And I have acknowledged, if the GAA are prepared to alienate unionists in order to maintain a political dimension, then that is a decision for them.

  • willowfield

    PRINCE
    >>It does exclude people: it excludes unionists by virtue of being a nationalist organisation.< < Boring nonsense, anyone including Unionist who wished to join could, full stop.

    Just like anyone, including a nationalist, who wished to work at Shorts in the days when the shop floor was bedecked in Union Flags, could, seeing as there was no “official” rule banning them from employment? Nationalists weren’t excluded from the Shorts workplace in those days, sure they weren’t?

    Wise up. If an organisation is nationalist then it excludes unionists by definition.

    An organisation that is unashamedly pro-Nationalist is not committing any crime.

    No-one said it was. Please try to stay relevant.

    The GAA does not need to reach out and be all things to all people.

    That all depends on your viewpoint. Some people think that it does. Others think that it doesn’t. Others think that it doesn’t need to, but that it might be a good thing to do anyway. If one thinks that it does, or that it would be a good thing, then the political baggage needs to go.

    Kensei used the word ‘rape’ earlier, I would put it like hassling one party(GAA) to remove all of their clothes.

    No-one is hassling them. The suggestion under discussion actually came from within the GAA.

    What is the point if the Unionist hardliners have no intentions of consummating the relationship in the first place?

    Well, first, some might think it was “the right thing to do” in its own right, regardless of whether “the Unionist hardliners” wish to take it up. Second, non-hardline unionists might wish to take it up.

    What is the bloody point of it?

    Presumably so that the GAA can become truly representative of all Irish people, and not just of nationalists. And also to lose the stigma in Northern Ireland of being an apartheid sport.

    How fucking dare they eh?

    You seem to be reacting in a rather extreme manner to the rather modest suggestion by someone within the GAA that it should remove its political trappings and seek to promote “Gaelic culture” beyond the “Gaelic” volk.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>ust like anyone, including a nationalist, who wished to work at Shorts in the days when the shop floor was bedecked in Union Flags, could, seeing as there was no “official” rule banning them from employment? Nationalists weren’t excluded from the Shorts workplace in those days, sure they weren’t?< < Willow I refer you to a later response from you; "Please try to stay relevant." Hmmmm great advice I would heed it if I were you. Is a work place with a proud history of sectarianism bedecked with Unionist flags comparable to a sporting association who may only fly the flag at big one off games? You know in your mindset it just might be. >>No-one is hassling them. The suggestion under discussion actually came from within the GAA.< < You should really read back over your own comments. >>And also to lose the stigma in Northern Ireland of being an apartheid sport.< < In you and your fellow travelers minds only, thank God! >>How fucking dare they eh?

    You seem to be reacting in a rather extreme manner to the rather modest suggestion by someone within the GAA that it should remove its political trappings and seek to promote “Gaelic culture” beyond the “Gaelic” volk.<< My response is appropriate, and considering the last line of your response, on the money. Also your wilful and repeated misrepresentation of someone within the GAA is also up to your usual standards. Do you seriously contend that your wishes do not outdo the scrapping of 'rule 2', because you seriously need to read back on your previous points. Mote and plank spring to mind Willow. never have we witnessed such an effort over genuine sectarian hate groups.

  • willowfield

    PRINCE

    Willow I refer you to a later response from you; “Please try to stay relevant.”

    Why do you refer me to that response? The Shorts example is relevant as it deals with the issue of exclusion by means other than a specific rule!

    You should really read back over your own comments.

    I don’t think the GAA would consider itself to be “hassled” because of an anonymous internet discussion on Slugger.

    My response is appropriate, and considering the last line of your response, on the money.

    I don’t see how it is appropriate to react in such an extreme manner to an entirely reasonable suggestion which doesn’t bring into question the GAA’s right to decide for itself on these matters.

    Also your wilful and repeated misrepresentation of someone within the GAA is also up to your usual standards. Do you seriously contend that your wishes do not outdo the scrapping of ‘rule 2’, because you seriously need to read back on your previous points.

    Well, I guess you’re right that Bradley hasn’t explicitly referred to flags, anthems, etc., but they are the logical outworking of the political stuff in rule 2, etc. If the GAA ditches the political stuff, then logically the Southern trappings in NI (and to represent the whole island) have to go.

    Mote and plank spring to mind Willow. never have we witnessed such an effort over genuine sectarian hate groups.

    Such an “effort”?? Effort in respect of what? I’m afraid I don’t understand your comment, which appears to be irrelevant, and looks like an attempt to change the subject. This is a freestanding discussion about the GAA. If you wish to discuss “genuine sectarian hate groups”, I’m content to do so on a relevant thread, but please try to stay on topic.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Willow

    Thanks for the laugh. Do you feel seasick at all? The amount of changes of direction are worthy of a master sailor. Well maybe not as they aren’t tha difficult to spot. Btw does mentioning volk sound reasonable to you?

    I’ll expand on the ‘effort’ part, You persinally go to incredible, aye incredible time consuming efforts to take on all and sundry especially over issues surrounding the six counties fitba team and the GAA. Which reminds me, will you still not tell me the name of the team you support?

  • majordolittle

    Fairly obvious which team Prince Eoghan supports, they lost the SPL title at the weekend.

  • cladycowboy

    willowfield

    “We never did that in our scout troop.”

    Oh well that makes it alright then. Nimby. It happened at mine, it happened at others. The Scout group has a monarchial ethos. It is exclusionary by your own definition.

    The Scouts are a sectarian organisation.

    “If I lived in the Republic, and joined the Scouts, I wouldn’t object to them unfurling the Tricolour”

    Oh so it’s only Unionists living in NI that deserve to be spared from ‘exclusionary practices’? Interesting.

    Tell me, would you have stood in front of the Tricolour and sworn allegiance to the Irish Republic?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Major

    We lost it a long time ago. The fact that Rangers have been so bad for so long covered up our inadequacies. The football has been so bad for years now means I take my boys to see Gretna, and the tens of thousands of season ticket holders missing at paradise every home game(can’t even give them away to pals) tells it’s own story.

  • majordolittle

    You may not be able to take them to Gretna for too much longer, but they were clearly out of their depth. Wonder how many home fans will turn up at Parkhead for the 2 old firm games?

    BTW I support Hearts and Leeds, so I’m used to dissapointment.

    Rangers were godawful against Sporting.

    On the thread, I play cricket, and have no experience of GAA. When Ballylinlar GAC used to kick their ball over the fence in to the camp, we never gave it back though.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Gretna are secure until the end of the season.

    Hearts, the cousins of William. And Leeds where they sell most fascist literature. Not a Unionist by any chance Major;)

    >>Rangers were godawful against Sporting.<< Yep but effective, Dundee United have scored 5 against them these past few weeks. Celtic have not scored in four. A shocking indictment against what really is an ordinary but very well organised and motivated team. I played cricket socially and Aussie rules for the school team in Oz and my boys and I will watch it on sky now and then. The new twenty twenty league in India will be exciting.

  • willowfield

    PRINCE

    Thanks for the laugh. Do you feel seasick at all? The amount of changes of direction are worthy of a master sailor.

    I haven’t made any changes: if you think that I have, however, you are at liberty to point them out. I note that you haven’t.

    Btw does mentioning volk sound reasonable to you?

    Yes, it does. I often use it when referring to the two “tribes” in Ireland.

    I’ll expand on the ‘effort’ part, You persinally go to incredible, aye incredible time consuming efforts to take on all and sundry especially over issues surrounding the six counties fitba team and the GAA.

    I make no apology for having the courtesy to reply to those who engage in discussion with me.

    Which reminds me, will you still not tell me the name of the team you support?

    I have never refused to tell you which team I support: you have never asked. Should you ever ask me, I will tell you.

    CLADYCOWBOY

    Oh well that makes it alright then. Nimby. It happened at mine, it happened at others. The Scout group has a monarchial ethos. It is exclusionary by your own definition.

    In the UK, the Scouts recognise the head of state, as I assume they do in all other countries. That seems reasonable to me.

    The Scouts are a sectarian organisation.

    The “Catholic Scouts of Ireland” were sectarian and, as a consequence of merging with the ROI scouts, they sadly maintained a sectarian split in scouting in NI.

    Oh so it’s only Unionists living in NI that deserve to be spared from ‘exclusionary practices’? Interesting.

    This comment makes no sense to me. Sorry.

    Tell me, would you have stood in front of the Tricolour and sworn allegiance to the Irish Republic?

    If I lived in the Republic and it was part of the normal practice of the Scouts then, yes, of course I would.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>you have never asked. Should you ever ask me, I will tell you.<< You absolute fibber. Alright well here is your chance, tell us who you support.

  • willowfield

    I’m not a fibber. Please stop accusing me of lying without being able to back it up. You still haven’t retracted your allegations on the “speaking truth unto power” thread.

    I support Crusaders. Why are you so keen to know?

  • Prince Eoghan

    On one of the many interminable threads about the 6 counties team I asked if you even watched fitba as all your comment were politically based. You replied and I then asked you what team you supported and you failed to respond. I called you a fibber because there is plausible deniability ie. you never re-checked the thread, how would I know? On the other thread it has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions where you lied. You are trying to get off on some irrelevant technicality. It is not that important to me, though you have a cheek chasing it up, mare front than Sammy Fox in fact.

    Doesn’t matter anyhow, you are a balloon and I’m bored. Find someone else to annoy with your total lack of humour or wit.

  • Realist

    “And Leeds where they sell most fascist literature Not a Unionist by any chance Major”

    Sshhh…you’ll upset kensei. 🙂

  • willowfield

    PRINCE

    On one of the many interminable threads about the 6 counties team I asked if you even watched fitba as all your comment were politically based. You replied and I then asked you what team you supported and you failed to respond. I called you a fibber because there is plausible deniability ie. you never re-checked the thread, how would I know?

    I’m afraid I only recall you asking me if I watched football, and I said “yes”: I don’t recall being asked which team.

    On the other thread it has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions where you lied. You are trying to get off on some irrelevant technicality. It is not that important to me, though you have a cheek chasing it up, mare front than Sammy Fox in fact.

    I didn’t lie and you know I didn’t. You’re playing dumb and pretending not to know to whom I was referring when I used the term “Provos”. It seems that you’re trying to distract from the fact that you made a false claim about the Provos’ electoral support in West Belfast.

  • Prince Eoghan

    True enough realist Kensei must consort with fascists. That’ll have to be held against him sometime.

    Sssssssssssssh. Did anyone hear a ballon burst? *POP*

  • Realist

    “True enough realist Kensei must consort with fascists. That’ll have to be held against him sometime”

    “Find someone else to annoy with your total lack of humour or wit”

    …and you were saying Prince? 😉

  • cladycowboy

    willowfield

    “In the UK, the Scouts recognise the head of state, as I assume they do in all other countries. That seems reasonable to me.”

    Why the need to? Kids learning knots require that?
    Presumably there are no scout groups in Zimbabwe or would this practice continue there also?

    >>”Oh so it’s only Unionists living in NI that deserve to be spared from ‘exclusionary practices’? Interesting.< < "This comment makes no sense to me. Sorry. " Let me try to clarify as it gets to the crux of the matter for you (I think). What i derive from you saying that as a Unionist, if you happened to live in the Republic, you'd have no qualms with Republican symbols. Am I right to deduce then that if the GAA only organised in the Republic then you think this is perfectly acceptable and that Unionists (always being told there are some) living in the Republic would not be excluded from the GAA? >>Tell me, would you have stood in front of the Tricolour and sworn allegiance to the Irish Republic?,,

    “If I lived in the Republic and it was part of the normal practice of the Scouts then, yes, of course I would. ”

    How could you though? You are a Unionist. Surely the Republican ethos embedded in the Scouts would exclude you, as a Unionist?

    I thought we were talking about consciences and political sensibilities and that those were the reasons that the GAA were exclusionary.

    Obviously not.

    You’re talking about conforming to the Constitutional status quo regardless of your beliefs.

    You just want the GAA to acknowledge who controls the six counties. Put manners on them so to speak.

    When in Rome (for want of a better phrase)…

    Is that the depth of your argument? Sad.

  • willowfield

    Cladycowboy

    Why the need to?

    Not sure – isn’t duty a big thing in the Scouts: to God, country, etc.? I guess that’s why.

    Presumably there are no scout groups in Zimbabwe or would this practice continue there also?

    I’d be surprised if there weren’t.

    Am I right to deduce then that if the GAA only organised in the Republic then you think this is perfectly acceptable and that Unionists (always being told there are some) living in the Republic would not be excluded from the GAA?

    Yes, because using an ROI organisation using ROI symbols is perfectly normal and reasonable and would not be taking a political position.

    How could you though? You are a Unionist. Surely the Republican ethos embedded in the Scouts would exclude you, as a Unionist?

    Being a unionist doesn’t mean that you don’t respect the right of the ROI to remain as an independent state or a republic!

    I thought we were talking about consciences and political sensibilities and that those were the reasons that the GAA were exclusionary.

    The GAA is “exclusionary” because it is a nationalist organisation.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘The GAA is “exclusionary” because it is a nationalist organisation’

    it is actually a nationalist cultural/sporting organistation which excludes no-one. people who choose not to participate are excluding themselves.

  • majordolittle

    RepublicanStones
    It excludes no-one?
    So why can’t Ballykinlar GAC not have a match against 2 Rifles, stationed yards away in Ballykinlar Camp, on the excellent facilities there. Indeed why can’t the 5000 strong garrison here join the league in regimental status.
    The GAA players could even learn to play rugby, football and cricket. Proper sports where you actually have to learn skills and fitness, rather than a tacky version of Sunday league pub soccer.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘Proper sports where you actually have to learn skills and fitness, rather than a tacky version of Sunday league pub soccer.’

    thanks for illustarting your mentality toward the most popular sports in Ireland. Obviously you have never even watched a game of hurling or football otherwise you would not have made a complete gobshite outta yourself with that ridiculous comment. good man.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘Proper sports where you actually have to learn skills and fitness, rather than a tacky version of Sunday league pub soccer.’

    thanks for illustating your mentality toward the most popular sports in Ireland. Obviously you have never even watched a game of hurling or football otherwise you would not have made a complete gobshite outta yourself with that ridiculous comment. good man.

  • RepublicanStones

    apologies for the double post

    illustrating*

  • cladycowboy

    willowfield

    “Yes, because using an ROI organisation using ROI symbols is perfectly normal and reasonable and would not be taking a political position.”

    It doesn’t exclude Unionists then.
    You’ll have to re-define the ‘excluded’ group to mean Unionists who currently live in NI and consider their objection to the flying of a tricolour more immoveable than their desire to partake in the GAA.

    I didn’t suggest the GAA would have dropped it’s Republican ethos btw even if it organised only in the Republic.

    Why didn’t you find my earlier suggestion that the GAA could remain largely as it is but not display Republicanism in NI acceptable? You said it would need to drop all references to nationalism beforehand.

    “Being a unionist doesn’t mean that you don’t respect the right of the ROI to remain as an independent state or a republic! ”

    What’s all the fuss about then?

    “The GAA is “exclusionary” because it is a nationalist organisation.”

    Excluding who exactly? Not Southern Unionists according to you. You seem to be suggesting it excludes people not due to their political beliefs but a cocktail of these beliefs and geography.

  • willowfield

    It doesn’t exclude Unionists then.

    It wouldn’t exclude unionists in the circumstances described. Unfortunately, those circumstances do not pertain now.

    I didn’t suggest the GAA would have dropped it’s [sic] Republican ethos btw even if it organised only in the Republic.

    Well, how would the republican ethos manifest itself in your hypothetical ROI-only GAA?

    Why didn’t you find my earlier suggestion that the GAA could remain largely as it is but not display Republicanism in NI acceptable? You said it would need to drop all references to nationalism beforehand.

    You’ll have to explain what you’re referring to. Which posts?

    What’s all the fuss about then?

    The GAA’s nationalist ethos and practices.

    Excluding who [sic] exactly?

    Unionists.

    Not Southern Unionists according to you.

    I didn’t know there were any Southern unionists.

    You seem to be suggesting it excludes people not due to their political beliefs but a cocktail of these beliefs and geography.

    It excludes unionists by virtue of being a nationalist organisation.