Get tough

Following a murder in West Belfast the BBC reports Sinn Fein will support a tougher policing approach to anti-social behaviour in the area. However where does the line between tough and heavy handed lie?

  • That’s easy, we all know it depends on whether or not the perp is a committed republican.

  • kensei

    If you break the law, you should have an expectation of being caught and you should have an expectation that the same rules will apply consistently everywhere. You shouldn’t have the expectation of being roughly handled (unless you are offering physical resistance), or that you are being punished or targeted when other people are not.

    I’d like to see Broken Window Theory, as described in “The Tipping Point” applied here, and targeted at anti-social behaviour. It would mean cutting down arrest time and paperwork, but I’m sure it would be possible if we held the necessary powers.

  • kensei

    beano

    That’s easy, we all know it depends on whether or not the perp is a committed republican.

    Yes, because loyalists have never complained about police action against them. Orangemen have never complained about police action against them.

    [Play the ball please]

  • Twinbrook

    so will slugger be issuing a apology for bakers hideous remarks?

  • eranu

    “heavy handed”, as everyone knows, is what is said when people cant think of any other bad thing to say about a police action. current fav of republicans but occasionally used by loyalists (i think). its one of those laughable phrases like ‘securocrats’.
    there were a few raids on criminals houses in republican areas on the news, i think it was last year. they went without incident and resulted in the criminals being caught and taken away. when some locals on the street where asked for their reaction you could almost see on their faces how their brains were working. something like –
    “what’ll i say?… i hate the police, must say something bad…umm cant think of anything…..i know! i’ll just say heavy handed. that’ll make them look bad!”
    theres nothing more to the use of this phrase than that.

  • eranu

    or possibley complain about too many landrovers if someones got in there first with the heavy handed line.

  • harry

    what’ll i say?… i hate the police, must say something bad…umm cant think of anything…..i know! i’ll just say heavy handed. that’ll make them look bad!”
    theres nothing more to the use of this phrase than that.

    Posted by eranu on Mar 19, 2008 @ 03:16 PM

    except when the cops are shouting at nationalists in newry that they “all need a bullet” as did last month.

  • harry

    what’ll i say?… i hate the police, must say something bad…umm cant think of anything…..i know! i’ll just say heavy handed. that’ll make them look bad!”
    theres nothing more to the use of this phrase than that.

    Posted by eranu on Mar 19, 2008 @ 03:16 PM

    except when the cops are shouting at nationalists in newry that they “all need a bullet” as they did last month.

  • eranu

    by ‘except’ do you agree with what i said then? its just obvious mud slinging?

  • Ahem

    Ah, the unique and gamey flavour of Republican moral ‘outrage’ cf. “Baker’s hideous remarks”. Bad Peter, naughty Peter – don’t you how horribly, unspeakably, dangerously and unforgivably evil it is to say the wrong thing? Trumps all other known crimes anywhere ever. Peter Baker, get thee behind me! Otherwise, Provettes, pull the other one, it’s got Provo-butchered corpses dangling from it.

  • Ken, you’re essentially right, but if you’re discussing the topic (in some kind of roundabout way) I don’t see what that has to do with anything.
    If you’re focusing on my personal views and/or contribution I think I’m fairly consistent on that front.

    I really don’t see why you’d want anyone imitating a loyalist MOPE anyway. If a loyalist stuck his head in the fire…

    Trying to respond to the OP, I’m glad SF are belatedly seeing the light on this one. All communities deserve a strong police force service and the ability to live their lives in the relative safety that that should produce. It just does seem a tad like they want to have their cake and eat it (or at least have special concessions made for Party members).

  • Perhaps that ’roundabout’ should be replaced with ‘whatabout’.

  • barnshee

    Nope
    The coyboys woops cops have adopted american approach to natives. Arrive in to reservation get stoned,petrol bombed etc etc . Arrest one/two with struggle — 10`s (100`s) of “witnesses” to prove:-

    1 Arrested person nowhere near the event
    2 Was brutally beaten by cowboys

    Nope– cowboys have learned stay out of Reservation-let indians do what they want in Reservation as long as they stay there. (Too bad for any white men left behind in reservation)

  • Alex Swan

    “It would mean cutting down arrest time and paperwork, but I’m sure it would be possible if we held the necessary powers”

    24 hour Courts would be a start, that and an incentive to plead early as opposed pleading not guilty up to the final moment, far to often minor offences are dragged out by greedy lawyers.

  • Twinbrook

    The communities in West Belfast know as well as the PSNI who the scum are!! What they are continually asking is how do the same people run amok and get away with it.

    Either the psni is inadequate and unable to deal with ordinary crime, doesn`t rather care or hampered by a criminal justice system geared towards the criminal rather than the victim….

    Regardless, communities are crying out for these people to be removed from the streets and in cases from evicted from the areas they hound…

    Surely the psni along with resident groups and other bodies such as the Housing Executive should work in unison to stamp out the scourge of criminal thuggery referred to as anti-social behavior..

  • picador

    Fair Deal,

    Are you referring to the murder of FRANK MCGREEVY?

  • Twinbrook

    “Bad Peter, naughty Peter – don’t you how horribly, unspeakably, dangerously and unforgivably evil it is to say the wrong thing”

    Ahem, not to repeat the point, but baker initially tried to justify an attack on an innocent man because of his political beliefs…

    Maybe you`ve fogotton that this man died!

    Keep throwing the muck in the hope of deflecting from bakers remark….

    How would you feel if it were your relative???

    by the way how many alter-egos has baker!

  • Shite at links

    “That’s easy, we all know it depends on whether or not the perp is a committed republican”

    Sure it does Beano, just ask Nigel Doods, Robert Saulters, Harold Gracey or Dawson Bailie:

    “However, Nigel Dodds feels no constraints over saying: “there are aspects of the police raid that concern me”. He thinks the tactics were “aggressive” and will be raising his concerns in writing with the chief constable”

    http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2006/mar9_equivocating_MP__NEmerson.php

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/823511.stm

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4243684.stm

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20050913/ai_n15365533

  • T.Ruth

    It is time for the courts and the law to get heavy handed-it is hard in a classroom situation for example to enforce quiet but relatively easier to enforce silence. We need a zero tolerance attitude to all crime from all sources spelling out the limits clearly with sentences reflecting the severity of the crime. One chance at rehabilitation for less serious offences. A requirement to fully restore including financially where that is possible. Where restoration is not possible then serious retribution and serious sentences for those who commit serious offences with no remission.No cosy cells.No easy time.
    T.Ruth

  • Reader

    Twinbrook: Regardless, communities are crying out for these people to be removed from the streets and in cases from evicted from the areas they hound
    Who do you want removed from your area, and will you testify against them in court?

  • Shite at links, you’re clearly shite at reading as well because I’ve already accepted that loyalists/OO etc can play the same game (although I do think they learned it from the Sinners).

    Have you ever heard the saying about two wrongs and a right?

  • wild turkey

    ‘Regardless, communities are crying out for these people to be removed from the streets and in cases from evicted from the areas they hound ‘

    Twinbrook, and when they are evicted (for now lets ignore the HOW) just WHERE do ‘these people’ get transported to? Another district, another neighbourhood; just as long as they are shitting in someone elses nest?

    ‘Have you ever heard the saying about two wrongs and a right?’

    Beano, on this issue it appears two wrongs may very well make a reich.

  • Comrade Stalin

    The communities in West Belfast know as well as the PSNI who the scum are!! What they are continually asking is how do the same people run amok and get away with it.

    A question the Quinn family and the McCartney family no doubt ask as well. Part of this problem is a lack of enthusiasm on the part of the PSNI; the other part is that the community in West Belfast is still not co-operating fully with the police.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Twinbrook: “Ahem, not to repeat the point, but baker initially tried to justify an attack on an innocent man because of his political beliefs…”

    For which you have (unreasonably, imnsho) been hounding him across multiple threads.

    Twinbrook: “Maybe you`ve fogotton (sic) that this man died!”

    And all your outrage and harangues aren’t going to change that, now are they?

    Comrade Stalin: “Part of this problem is a lack of enthusiasm on the part of the PSNI; the other part is that the community in West Belfast is still not co-operating fully with the police.”

    And that is just the relatively concrete aspects of the problem… Mayhap I’m a cynic, but I do suspect that there is a political dimension to the problem that is not immediately apparent.

    Sadly, I think that the political dimension would likely evaporate should policing and justice be local issues over which local politicians were responsible, rather than faceless bureaucrats.

  • McGinster

    Dread,

    What do you think the ‘not immediately apparent’ political dimension is?

    Do you suspect the police are being deprived of adequate resources to pressure the DUP into accepting devolved P&J;?

    That actually sounds feasible by my reckoning.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    McGinster: “What do you think the ‘not immediately apparent’ political dimension is?”

    I think that there is a continuation of some old thinking — that the police are “going along” so that the parties can “get along.” Correspondingly, some of the hoods are still playing their old games by the old rules, as if nothing has happened.

    One of these two conditions need to change…

    McGinster: “Do you suspect the police are being deprived of adequate resources to pressure the DUP into accepting devolved P&J;?

    That actually sounds feasible by my reckoning. ”

    Mayhap… but starving the PSNI for resources so that DUP will take delivery of a demoralized and damaged police force is not sound thinking… although that hasn’t stopped gov’ts before.

  • Gregory

    What we don’t need is more meetings, rallies, vigils, the solution is to ignore SF and

    take whatever the PSNI can put up and coax them to do more without involving SF. I refuse to allow people to act as if West Belfast is a one party little state, even if is.

  • Gregory

    The PSNI respond, last time I was tackling people with knives and screwdrivers they sent a helicopter with a search light and also monitored the situation from a distance.

    It is every person for himself in West Belfast, the trick is not to die. The odds eventually go against a person, that happens, you get a funeral, Gerry appears, talks shite, and on to the next one.