“Hillary’s hyperbole has not served her well…”

The US public may be getting exhausted with it; and two it’s getting incredibly destructive. In the case of the Democrats, (the only party still with a stand up fight going). Not sure how much the NI question of recent days are making but it rumbles on. Hearts and Minds discover (over half way through) that she did have meetings at the City Hall, but as Conor O’Clery points out, “this hyperbole has not served her well” Toby Harnden has the PBS link (5 minutes in), where she claims she was ‘instrumental’.

Update: Mamam has a sound grab from Bill’s defence of his beleaguered missus…For me, the crux lies in this part:

“There is no doubt that I played a major role in many of the foreign policy decisions, I represented our government in more than 80 countries. I know that people are nit-picking, and this is a campaign and that’s fair, but compare my experience to Senator Obama’s and I think my experience is much more preparatory for the job that awaits”.

In truth, Hillary’s role was that of a public diplomat. Undoubtedly that was grist to the mill in her entry to the Senate. But, however she spins it, it was not executive experience. I doubt she plans to recant by St Patricks Day, but it may well disappear after Monday!

,

  • Pete Baker

    “But, however she spins it, it was not executive experience.”

    Indeed.

    “Saying that Hillary has Executive Branch experience is like saying Yoko Ono was a Beatle.”

  • wild turkey

    ‘There is no doubt that I played a major role in many of the foreign policy decisions, I represented our government in more than 80 countries.’

    Queen Frigidaire was neither elected or appointed with the advise and consent of the legislative branch to her decision making role. The representative aspect she alludes to is in modern history part and parcel of the role of ‘first’ lady and is generally seen to be superficial and ceremonial.

    If her claims are true this raises a number of fundamental questions which require an answer. Amongst these are:-
    1. Was she acting, especially with respect to policy decisions, in a way potentially contrary to the constitution and perhaps illegally?
    2. Would a Hillary administration in effect be a Billary administration with Bill having a major role in decision with respect to either domestic or foreign policy?

  • Greenflag

    Northern Ireland will not matter come November. The Republicans would rather not face Hillary -they stand a better chance of pulling a Gore on Obama simply through the Electoral College Vote (ECV).

    Each State is assigned an ECV based on population. California gets 55, Texas 37, New York 31, Florida 27, Illinois 21, Ohio 20, Pennsylvania 20 and so on. There are traditionnally safe Republican States -e.g Texas , Alabama , Alaska , Georgia, just as there are safe Democratic States e.g New York, California, Massachussetts, etc . There are approx 12 swing States the most important being Florida, Ohio, Michigan, and Pennsylvania . Whichever party wins a majority of the swing States will get the most ECV’s and thus the Presidency .

    Based on present polls traditional Republican States would have 216 Electoral College votes (ECV’s) Democrats 183 ECV’s . The 12 swing States account for 142 ECV’s .

    If we look at the Democratic primaries as the Presidential Election – Obama would have 247 ECV’s and Clinton 273 ECV’s

    When we subtract the definite Republican ECV States from the above Obama’s ECV’s would be down to 120 and Clinton’s to 202 . The reason why Obama loses out more here is because he won many of his primaries in States which Democrats have little hope of winning in November e.g Georgia, Alabama, Alaska ,etc.

    When we look at the 12 swing States, again based on the Dem Primary results Obama would win 57 ECV’s and Clinton 85 ECVs . This would leave Clinton with 287 potential ECV’s against Obama’s 177.

    On balance the Democratic party would do better to choose Clinton over Obama based on a purely ECV approach . For the above exercise I have assumed Clinton wins the Pennsylvania primary.

    The States of Florida, Ohio, Michigan and Pennsylvania with a total of 85 Electoral College votes between them will be absolutely critical in this election .

    McCain’s men will hope to win in Florida , Ohio and Pennsylvania and that is probably all he will need to to do ‘steal’ the next election . It’s conceivable with Obama as candidate he could do a Gore i.e win the plurality of votes but still lose the Electoral college . With Clinton that looks less likely IMO.

    It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the Democrats by ignoring the primary ‘votes’ of Florida and Michigan will hand over the Presidency to McCain . Despite widespread dissatisfaction with the Bush administration the ECV is the hurdle which the Democrats have to leap . For all Mr Obama’s popularity among the political ‘newbies’ the ECV vote shows that McCain has more to fear from a Clinton candidacy than an Obama one .

  • darth rumsfeld

    Is Pat Buchanan running this year?

  • Ben

    Hillary can claim that she delivered Good Friday if Obama can claim he’s Black Irish. After all, his name is Barack Patrick Obama….

  • Crataegus
  • Do assure me that all those chucking in their two cents’ worth, here and on previous related threads, have read and digested the Media Matters piece.

    It seems to give a more balanced view that has always been represented here.

  • latcheeco

    Crat,
    Are you sure its not Barack Buster O’Bama 🙂
    I’ll get my coat now.

  • Kathy C

    posted by Kathy C

    many seem busy making fun of Hilary’s claims…but what other First Lady spend so much time on the north? What is Laura Bush’s record? And at the time of the Good Friday Agreement and since…where has Obama been? As a Senator…Hilary has kept her door open to those from the North…what has Obama done?

  • Merrie

    >> …where has Obama been?…what has Obama done?

    He was no where near the six counties, that’s for sure!

    A couple of links on Barack’s past (and present): The first about his pastor who married him and baptised his two kids; the second about his mum:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3555561.ece

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/14/us/politics/14obama.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp;S

  • latcheeco

    Merrie what’s the point? First he was a wooley liberal now his pastor is too hardcore for you.What did the Pastor say about the U.S. that upset you?

    Kathy C.
    As regards G.erry’s F.eckin A.greement, I didn’t know you were a fan.

    Unlike Hil. he has not claimed the peace process as one his particular miracles (they are all in the future 🙂 It’s like saying I did more in 1980 than you did because your weren’t born till 1981. It’s not a fair comparison. And it wasn’t ’cause she loved the auld sod either it was to buy the Micks, and feck didn’t we go cheap.

  • Ben

    O’Bama got elected in Illinois, which means he’s got a way with Richie Daley Jr. Sure, the kid isn’t who/what is father was, but it still means that our Barack knows how to work Irish politics!

  • The following is adapted from a less-than-well-known blogsite:

    I’ve just done a quickie with the Primary returns to date.

    I listed out the 22 States (obviously including Florida) which the Democrats won in 2000, and must win in 2008 to deliver a total of 287 votes in the Electoral College.

    There’s not much point in summing the “popular” vote, because of the different ways delegates are selected between Primaries and Caucuses. However, if I sum up the “Electoral College” votes for Clinton and Obama in these (for the Democrats) key States, I find:

    Clinton 161;
    Obama 98

    Obviously, that does not include Oregon (20th May) or Pennsylvania (22 April), or take account a re-run in Florida (i.e. Brooklyn-by-the-other-Beach). For what it’s worth, the last poll I saw for Oregon had Clinton up by 8%, and for Pennsylvania Clinton up by 19%: which would take Clinton to 189 of the 270 to win.

    The fat lady ain’t even into rehearsals yet. Meanwhile, I cannot see why the mass ranks of punditry (not excluding our own dear Mick, judging from the slope of his keyboard) have been doing a Gadarene-swinish rush towards O’Bama.

  • latcheeco

    Malcom losing the primary to your opponent in the same party does not necessarily mean losing that state in an election (unless one player gets so nasty that she manages to piss off half her own party including the House leadership).

  • latcheeco on Mar 15, 2008 @ 03:21 PM:

    That was not my argument.

    As for your last observation: unfortunately, the contest is increasingly being depicted in terms of which is more-readily affronted: the black minority or the the white-female majority.

    Of course, if you take an exclusively-Obama line, you can use the race issue to deny the likes of Geraldine Ferraro First Amendment rights.

  • Ben

    Geraldine Ferraro revealed herself to be a politician from another era… sometimes in politics you just can’t speak the truth. On a more current note, Bill Clinton, a man of remarkable talent, proved that potential doesn’t necessarily lead to delivery. Sure, he was light years better than the current (and previous) lot, but a level assessment of the candidate didn’t pan out in terms of his record as President.

    So, for the current part of that…. Many people seem to be tilting toward Obama because he comes without all the baggage that Hillary has. He looks and leads forward without, for instance, a “he said she said” about what happened on an ancient trip to Northern Ireland. Americans seems to be still weary from the wrenching years of Republicans ripping any and every way they could at the Clintons, and from the slash and burn politics of the Cheyney Administration. Obama is untested, but that also means a new page for America. Hillary is a woman, yeah, but one with a lot of political mileage that the Republicans are eager to review and the democrats aren’t. Hillary has many good values, but that’s not the same thing as accomplishments. If her White House years count as accomplishments then Bill Clinton becomes co-President and the wheel revolves backward instead of forward. As an observer, I’d prefer some new rhetoric. Besides, Obama can’t help but be better than what they’ve got now, so I’m prepared to declare him a success already. Yours in opposition to the dynastic Presidency, Ben

  • latcheeco

    Malcolm,
    If the race is being depicted in those terms it wasn’t accidental and Obama does not benefit from it because Blacks are around one in ten of the electorate. Ferraro was using race to wind it up (in the party of civil rights).That is expected from repubs. and thats why Hilery booted her

  • Merrie

    Along with the link already quoted on another thread giving George Mitchell’s opinion (and knowledge) on HIllary’s role:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/10/eveningnews/main3923206.shtml

    Bill Clinton also says that her role was not just a “cheerleader”:

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=world-qqqm=world-qqqa=world-qqqid=57855-qqqx=1.asp

  • Everything I’ve been doing with the figures confirms the substance of Greenflag on Mar 14, @ 12:20 PM above. In other words, in the “winnable” Democratic States, Clinton seems a better candidate than Obama. I was intrigued by Greenflag‘s approach, but the reason for my previous post @ 02:02 PM was because I was staggered when the differential showed.

    What I find perturbing is that too many correspondents and contributors are taking at face value what is coming across from some US sites. For example, I have seen the DailyKos site mentioned here. What I have not seen is that some of its long-term writers have broken with Kos:

    I’ve been posting at DailyKos for nearly 4 years now and started writing diaries in support of Hillary Clinton back in June of last year. Over the past few months I’ve noticed that things have become progressively more abusive toward my candidate and her supporters.

    I’ve put up with the abuse and anger because I’ve always believed in what our on-line community has tried to accomplish in this world. No more. DailyKos is not the site it once was thanks to the abusive nature of certain members of our community.

    I’ve decided to go on “strike” and will refrain from posting here as long as the administrators allow the more disruptive members of our community to trash Hillary Clinton and distort her record without any fear of consequence or retribution. I will not be posting at DailyKos effective immediately. I will not help drive up traffic or page-hits as long as my candidate – a good and fine DEMOCRAT – is attacked in such a horrid and sexist manner not only by other diarists, but by several of those posting to the front page.

    Then, again, one can find the same view from Andy Ostroy:

    They want to squash the opposition. They are narrow-minded and intolerant of differing viewpoints. They engage in censorship. They are sanctimonious and holier-than-thou in their political preachings. They frame issues that result in wild accusations of unpatriotism, racism and divisiveness. Their arrogance and sense of entitlement knows no bounds. Republicans, you say? No. We’re talking about Progressive Democrats supporting Sen. Barack Obama in the 2008 presidential election.

    Why do I not need to know which way the UK Press (especially the Murdoch brands) will go? That’s no reason for more enlightened souls to be taken in the same way.

  • Merrie

    Malcolm: I agree. There is a long break between voting at the moment and in that time maybe the US electorate will become more aware of Barack’s background. He is now more forthcoming on his association with Rezko (who is facing corruption charges) and apparently Rezko had much more involvement in Barack’s political campaign(s) than previously admitted.

    With regard to his association with the Minister, here is a comment from the Wall St Journal:
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120545277093135111.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

    A more humourous comment about Barack’s current response to incisive questions is from Slate:
    http://www.slate.com/id/2186324/

    The New York Times has a photo album showing family shots of Barack with his maternal grandparents and others, his wedding, and one with his father.

    So with all this information coming out on Barack’s background – bit by bit and good and bad – by the time Pennsylvania votes the US will understand Barack more and be able to make a more informed judgement of his suitability as a president, whether he is really “messianic” or just another politician; whether he can bring about “change”; and if he can bring about “change” it is of the sort the US wants or needs. Maybe some of those hysterical, fainting supporters will have calmed down too!!

    With regard to Hillary, I gave links on another thread of research which showed how pathological some Hillary haters were. Everyone is used to her being hated by many in the media. Someone noted the intense commitment of her supporters when she won Ohio. These supporters were mostly older women – women who are old enough to know what crap the media can serve up and wise enough to make their own judgement.

    I don’t know how many independents and liberals make up the US population, but blacks are around 12% (there are more Hispanics) and women are around 50% of the population. Let’s say less than half of those support Hillary, but I am pretty sure that her percentage of women is more than the other two groups put together.

  • Crataegus

    Would you vote for someone who belongs to this church for 20 years?

    Is it only Whites who can be racist?

  • Merrie

    Crataegus

    The people of NI can easily recognise Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr Think Rev Ian Kyle Paisley on his pulpit, cursing his political opponents.

    Wright looks pretty white to me…. Maybe that’s the part of his ancestry which makes him so clearly racist :-§

  • Crataegus

    Merrie

    Indeed there are similarities hopefully some are now able to see more clearly how offensive and obnoxious our local variety has been to many fellow citizens.

    On the Obama subject I really do not believe that anyone attending and donating to such a church for 20 years would not be aware of such rantings.

    At the very least you have to question his judgement if not his integrity and it does tend to dent the Mr clean persona that he is astutely crafting.

    If he wins the Democratic nomination I cannot envisage how he can win with this sort of background and possibly being called by Rezko. It is an utter mess. Apparently his popularity has dropped 8 points.

  • latcheeco

    Merrie,
    the guy grew up black in America and is old enough to to remember Jim Crow. I know his job suggests that he should just make up with his persecutors get on with it the way you did but maybe he doesn’t have your strength of character. As for trashing your first minister how disloyal?
    Using Bill Clintons testimony to help you prove Hilery saved Ireland might not be the best tactic given his record on testimony. Maybe Bill wanted a cheerleader :).Your support of Hillery sounds just as passionate as those who support Obama and you live in Ireland. Every test he gets by the next test is the most crucial. Explain to me how if Hilery has managed to screw her own party and campaign up (the greatest test so far of her leadership abilities) she will be a great president when half the country is republican.

  • latcheeco

    Malcolm I’m still not convinced on the college argument but then again I always regarded math as the devil’s sentences 🙂

  • Greenflag

    ‘Malcom losing the primary to your opponent in the same party does not necessarily mean losing that state in an election ‘

    If you look at the State of New York that may be true . Clinton won the primary and if Obama were the Democratic Nominee he would probably win the State . The same would apply in reverse in Illinois if Clinton were the nominee . But when you look at the entire country from an Electoral College vote perspective which come November will be the only one that will count even winning your party’s primary by a wide margin will not prevent a candidate losing the State in November.

    Anyway here are the facts in some more detail .

    Republican States .

    Texas
    Alabama
    Alaska
    Arizona
    Arkansas
    Georgia
    Idaho
    Indiana
    Kansas
    Kentucky
    Louisiana
    Missisippi
    Missouri
    Montana
    Nebraska
    North Carolina
    North Dakota
    Oklahoma
    South Carolina
    South Dakota
    Tennessee
    Utah
    Virginia
    West Virginia
    Wyoming

    Total Electoral College votes of the above is 216. In primaries in the above States Obama won 17 States and Clinton 5. In ECV’s Obama won 127 as against Clinton’s 71.

    Democratic States

    California
    New York
    New Jersey
    Conneticut
    Delaware
    DC
    Hawaii
    Illinois
    Maine
    Maryland
    Massachssets
    Rhode Island
    Vermont
    Washington

    Total Electoral College votes of the above is 180. In primaries in the above States Obama won 9States and Clinton 5. In ECV’s Obama won 63 as against Clinton’s 117.

    The Swing States

    Colorado
    Florida
    Iowa
    Michigan
    Minnesota
    Nevada
    New Hampshire
    New Mexico
    Ohio
    Oregon
    Pennsylvania
    Wisconsin

    Total Electoral College votes of the above Swing States is 142. In primaries in the above States Obama won 8 States and Clinton 4. In ECV’s Obama won 57 as against Clinton’s 85.

    IMO Clinton has the edge in all of the big Democratic States and in the big swing States which may go Democrat . Obama is more popular among african american voters naturally enough but they don;t have the numbers across ALL of the States to defeat McCain IMO . The Democrats would do better to pick Clinton as their safest bet to defeat McCain come November . Ideally it would be best to have both candidates on the ticket to maximise turnout . That may not happen despite the wishes of many Democrat voters .

    And if the Democrats don’t seat the Florida or Michigan delegates or have another vote in those States they might as well call John McCain and congratulate him on his Presidential victory .

    It’s still a long time to November of course and anything can happen . We’ve seen how a political career and a a future ‘presidential ‘ hopeful Eliot Spitzer has impaled his career because of an orgy of Spitzerfreude :(!

    If democratic voters think that November’s election will be won based on popularity alone they might want to look very closely at the real numbers -the ones which will count come November ! The Democrats I’m sure would not like to see a rerun of the 2000 election where the more popular Gore lost out to Bush’s ECV majority!

  • Greenflag

    malcolm redfellow’

    ‘Everything I’ve been doing with the figures confirms the substance of Greenflag on Mar 14, @ 12:20 PM above. In other words, in the “winnable” Democratic States, Clinton seems a better candidate than Obama. I was intrigued by Greenflag‘s approach, but the reason for my previous post @ 02:02 PM was because I was staggered when the differential showed”

    For the record Greenflag the intention was to inform not ‘stagger’.:)

    ‘I cannot see why the mass ranks of punditry (not excluding our own dear Mick, judging from the slope of his keyboard) have been doing a Gadarene-swinish rush towards O’Bama.’

    It’s because they believe in HOPE and CHANGE and other nice things 🙂 As a paid up member of skeptics international GF needs something a bit more tangible in which to place his faith . Facts and numbers are always a good place to start:)

  • Greenflag

    ‘Is it only Whites who can be racist? ‘

    No . I’ve seen ‘racism’ in Asia and in Africa . There’s a minority of gobshites everywhere . Just don’t let them get their hands on political power.

    ‘Would you vote for someone who belongs to this church for 20 years?

    Lots of decent people voted for the DUP and the leader did’nt just belong to the Church but owned it ! Lots of decent people vote for Catholic candidates despite the record of the RC Church in trying to cover up it’s many sex paedophile scandals in recent decades.

    Some of what Obama’s ‘gyratin’ pastor says rings true . Much of it was ‘doctored’ rubbish as per usual . The reference to the ‘C’ student in the White House was a definite hit with the crowd !

    This ‘revelation’ will not help Obama IMO. He might want to look for a new pastor .

  • Merrie

    Cratægus:

    >>On the Obama subject I really do not believe that anyone attending and donating to such a church for 20 years would not be aware of such rantings.

    Thoroughly agree. And taking Greenflag’s stats into account, I hope the Democrats wake up in time.

    If you look at the photos of Barack’s family http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2007/02/09/60minutes/photoessay2455502.shtml (sorry, said it was from NY Times earlier )
    you can see that Barack’s colour is around 50/50 from both parents. It seems to me that Barack has decided he is more his dad’s colour than his mum’s (or maybe his US experiences decided that for him). In doing that he has gone to the extreme in religion: attending an all-black church which admires Farrakhan and has a pastor who spouts out anti-white racist rubbish. His religion is not all-inclusive, but Barack insists that is what he wants.

  • Merrie

    >> Is it only Whites who can be racist?

    Well I have noticed with some amusement that many black bus drivers in London will stop right beside black people even if they are further away from the bus stop than whites or Asian (Chinese, Viets, Indians, Pakistanis – or any other colour). The British queue is a big myth.

  • latcheeco @ 04:15 AM:

    Agreed; it’s not a deal-clinching absolute argument; but Greenflag in the previous posting works out in detail what I was implying. So all kudos there.

    The other element is the Obama claim that Clinton’s vote will transfer to him (it’s those obedient little white gals, y’know), whereas his vote is somehow unique. That’s fairly evidently a load of froth — of which there is unlimited quantities from all directions.

    There’s a further question hidden in there: where is the Obama vote coming from? The assumptions that it was a previously untapped resource (i.e. the Black vote) seems to be questionable. I’ve come across exit polls that show that, for example, the turn-out of possible Black voters in the California Primary was predominantly for Obama. However, the total turn-out of qualified Black voters increased from just 5% to 6%. I reckon that one factor is the “children’s crusade” which has been around since the Eugene McCarthy run of 1968. We certainly saw it four years ago for Dean. All the evidence seems to be that it’s the long-term dichotomy of support between the old pols and blue-collar unions (mainly Clintonistas), plus of course the feministas, versus the new-guys-on-the-block and white-collar liberals. Against which assumption we now see Obama having to contend, with his dubious Chicago associations.

    Incidentally, that’s another reason why I’m disposed to Clinton. It’s the FDR legacy: the coalition of interest involves both some healthy and socially-interventionist economics (and — heaven knows — the US middle- and working-classes need that now), but also a hard-nosed, even small-c conservatism and calculation in the act of governance. On the whole, as in health, Clinton seems a whit more radical than Obama, and would likely run a tougher, leaner regime..

    At the moment I’m busy, trying to work out whether one of our other machines has a Norwegian Blue for a hard drive, and just a sticky operating system; so forgive me if I don’t dig out chapter-and-verse for the affirmations here.

  • Crataegus

    latcheeco

    What matters is swing voters in swing states. Some say the swing states are as follows I would have my doubts about a few but defer to others who probably know better.

    New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Arkansas, Florida, Virginia, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Ohio, Wisconsin, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon.

    It is dangerous to compare these states with the Primaries as the election will be with the Republicans not other Democrats. In many of these states the Hispanic vote is crucial.

    I think the pastoral leaks have sunk Obama. There is little chance of him now winning an election against McCain short of McCain doing something horrendous. In fact many Democrats who voted for him may now wish they had not.

  • Crataegus

    Wonder why we have had 4, 5, 6 threads on this subject? Why none on the reason for McCain’s nickname song bird or the similarities between Obama’s Ministry and Paisleyism?

    Everyone going for a job interview is going to exaggerate a little you expect it. Obama however is the applicant that systematically misleads and is selective and evasive. Over and over he is ‘bone headed’, can’t recall, disagrees with some of the preaching (what bits exactly not disclosed). What he says and the record just do not tie up on so many issues.

    This is a clever man, he knows exactly what he is doing and be in no doubt he knew he got a ‘bargain’ from Rezko’s wife. Thats not being bone headed. He knew exactly the beliefs of Dr. Wright. He even had him on his team despite (in his version) being aware of the controversial views at the start of his campaign. Did he remove him then NO, he kept quiet. What does he do now? Does he condemn NO he disagrees. He regards him as a dear old uncle, well says it all really.

  • Merrie

    Yes, Cratægus: If it’s criticism, it is always something on Hillary – Heh Pete – though admittedly her appearance(s) on Slugger was because of her association with NI, something none of the other two candidates have.

    Mick Fealty has dismissed her efforts in NI as diplomacy, which, thankfully, is more than Trimble could say. Afaik Bill Clinton’s efforts here were *just* diplomacy too. He didn’t bring the troops in, did he?

    Thoroughly agree with the points you have raised on Barack in post 2.8. He kept Wright on his team until his anti-white American extremism became wide enough knowledge.

    Democrats of America wise up before it is too late.

  • Greenflag

    ‘I think the pastoral leaks have sunk Obama’

    They never harmed Paisley 🙂

    However Obama has taken GF’s advice 🙂

    Barack Obama’s minister, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, was removed from his honorary post on the senator’s Spiritual Advisor Committee. The move comes after broadcast and publication of some of the pastor’s more controversial speeches and sermons. Obama refused to repudiate the Rev. Wright but strongly condemned his remarks.

    Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama on Friday denounced inflammatory remarks from his pastor, who has railed against the United States and accused the country of bringing on the Sept. 11 attacks by spreading terrorism.

    Obama called the statements appearing on television and the Internet “completely unacceptable and inexcusable” in a Fox News interview and said they didn’t reflect the kinds of sermons he had heard from the Rev. Jeremiah Wright while attending services at Chicago’s Trinity United Church of Christ.

    Obama, a member of the church since the early 1990s, said he would have quit Trinity had such statements been “the repeated tenor of the church. … I wouldn’t feel comfortable there.”

    Earlier Friday, Obama responded by posting a blog about his relationship with Wright and Trinity on the Huffington Post. Wright brought Obama to Christianity, officiated at his wedding, baptized his daughters and inspired the title of his book, “The Audacity of Hope.”

    Obama wrote that he’s looked to Wright for spiritual advice, not political guidance, and he’s been pained and angered to learn of some of his pastor’s comments for which he had not been present. Obama told MSNBC that Wright had stepped down from his campaign’s African American Religious Leadership Committee.

    “I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies,” Obama said in his blog posting. “I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it’s on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Reverend Wright that are at issue.”

    In a sermon on the Sunday after the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, Wright said

    “We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye. We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards.

    America’s chickens are coming home to roost.(

    Obama told MSNBC that he would not repudiate Wright as a man, describing him as “like an uncle” who says something that he disagrees with and must speak out against. He also said he expects his political opponents will use video of the sermons to attack him as the campaign goes on.

    Questions about Obama’s religious beliefs have dogged him throughout his candidacy. He’s had to fight against false Internet rumors suggesting he’s really a Muslim intent on destroying the United States, and now his pastor’s words uttered nearly seven years ago have become an issue.

    Obama wrote on the Huffington Post that he never heard Wright say any of the statements, but he acknowledged that they have raised legitimate questions about the nature of his relationship with the pastor and the church. He wrote that he joined Wright’s church nearly 20 years ago, familiar with the pastor’s background as a former Marine and respected biblical scholar who lectured at seminaries across the country.

    “Reverend Wright preached the gospel of Jesus, a gospel on which I base my life,” he wrote. “And the sermons I heard him preach always related to our obligation to love God and one another, to work on behalf of the poor and to seek justice at every turn.”

    He said Wright’s controversial statements first came to his attention at the beginning of his presidential campaign last year, and he condemned them. Because of his long and deep ties to the 6,000-member congregation church, Obama said he decided not to leave.

    “With Reverend Wright’s retirement and the ascension of my new pastor, Rev. Otis Moss III, Michelle and I look forward to continuing a relationship with a church that has done so much good,” he wrote.

    GF comment :

    I like the name of Obama’s new pastor .

    Rev Otis Moss III (the turd?) . I always find it suspect when people are called Second/Third/Fourth etc . It smacks of dynastic aristocratic intentions and two can anybody imagine somebody being elected President John McCain the XXIII ? Popeye McCain would very soon become Popey McCain ( Non RCs’ Pope John XX111 )

  • Crataegus

    Greenflag

    He said Wright’s controversial statements first came to his attention at the beginning of his presidential campaign last year, and he condemned them. Because of his long and deep ties to the 6,000-member congregation church, Obama said he decided not to leave.

    This is important even if you believe it and take it at face value. These statements came to Obama’s attention at the beginning of of his presidential campaign so what does he do? He includes him in his team. This just does not add up.

    Just look at his statements on this and many other issues they are always conditional.

    he would have quit Trinity had such statements been “the repeated tenor of the church. … I wouldn’t feel comfortable there.”

    Now what exactly does repeated tenor actually mean? Was it the ethos of the church? Was it the churches general outlook, was it taken as read? This pastor is bound to have held and expressed these views on other occasions. His track record would suggest he was forthright for some time, decades actually.

    “I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it’s on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Reverend Wright that are at issue.

    It may be just his flowery use of English but to me he rejects only the statements at issue but not necessarily the belief or the views behind the statements.

    Merrie

    I don’t think any of them are angels, but Obama may well prove to have standards of cynicism well below that of the average politician.

    What disappoints me is that so much hope is being channelled towards someone who probably does not deserve it. The guy may be straight as a dye, but I doubt it, far to many lose ends and far to many selective memories. In four or eight years time we may have a better measure of the man, right now I don’t see him winning against McCain.

  • Greenflag

    ‘These statements came to Obama’s attention at the beginning of of his presidential campaign so what does he do? He includes him in his team. This just does not add up. ‘

    True enough – not if you are a numbers man anyway 🙂

    ‘Now what exactly does repeated tenor actually mean?’

    Perhaps Pavarotti was a frequent performer at said Church and sang operatic arias in Italian for so many hours on end that the pastor may have commented that the tenor was repeating himself :)?

    ‘His track record would suggest he was forthright for some time, decades actually.’

    I would not be surprised if the diggers/researchers /dirt grubbers are now busy searching for fortright remarks re perhaps the RC Church ?

    ‘ but Obama may well prove to have standards of cynicism well below that of the average politician.’

    Well after last week’s orgy of Spitzerfreude -Democrats might be somewhat forgiving of Obama’s rating on the cynical politician scale ?

    ‘The guy may be straight as a dye, but I doubt it, far to many lose ends and far to many selective memories.’

    Perhaps . But name me a politician anywhere who does not have selective memories and I’ll produce for you an elephant who can communicate with a dolphin in Chinese .

    ‘In four or eight years time we may have a better measure of the man, right now I don’t see him winning against McCain.’

    My thoughts exactly . Not because he can’t get more votes than McCain -he can . But simply because of the Electoral College Vote set up which IMO would favour a Clinton candidacy to an Obama one at this time .

    Who knows what skeletons can or might emerge over the next 6 months with Obama ? If there’s a bare bone left in the Clinton cupboard by now I’d be amazed . What you see with Hillary is what you’ll get .

    Ironically we may yet see the people who need a ‘new deal ‘ in the USA i.e the white working and middle classes , women , and african americans and hispanics – snatch ‘defeat’ from the jaws of victory just at that point in history when either African Americans or Women get a candidate on the Democratic ticket .

    McCain has been extremely lucky to get where he is . If Obama becomes the candidate I suspect that the McCain campaign will have a quiet celebration in advance of course !

    I would hope that Obama is cynical enought to accept the VP slot after Pennsylvania !

  • BfB

    Gore lost his home state for cyin’ out loud. Popular my ass. Blacks and women have been escorted to the front of the line in the US for 20 years. And we’ve got a ruined public education system, 25% of young females with std’s, and a barely able to read, dumbed down, irresponsible, generation to show for it. The last thing this country needs is more of this ‘disenfranchised’ snakeoil crap. Throw personal responsibility at these democratic charletons and they melt like the witch in the Wizard of Oz.

  • Crataegus

    Greenflag

    name me a politician anywhere who does not have selective memories and I’ll produce for you an elephant who can communicate with a dolphin in Chinese.

    Ah but most of them are not running the type of campaign that Obama is.

    Who knows what skeletons can or might emerge over the next 6 months with Obama ? If there’s a bare bone left in the Clinton cupboard by now I’d be amazed . What you see with Hillary is what you’ll get .

    I’m with you on that and agree if Obama is nominated they will be popping the corks down Republican way. I agree with you regarding the swing states, Obama would have a hill to climb, but I also believe that he is potentially vulnerable to attack in many ways Clinton is not. They have thrown everything at her already.

    I don’t think it would be cynical for him to accept a vice Presidential slot it would be a shrewd move. Right now he has a number of open flanks. 4 years would give him time to sort out the weaknesses and gain experience. The next 4 years is going to be one economic crisis after another. Let Clinton sort out Iraq and take what economic flack comes her way. If she does well smile when she runs again if not then run. Either way not a bad position to be in.

    If he runs for President he is gambling all on a throw of the dice. The Republicans will attack his loyalty to America, his integrity, his inexperience, his ability to be Commander in Chief his ability on economics. They could destroy his credibility.

    BfB

    Read the bit about sexually transmitted disease, over 50% of young females in some communities. Time for compulsory screening in school I would think. It is utterly appalling.

  • Greenflag

    ‘Gore lost his home state for cryin’ out loud.’

    So will Obama and/or Clinton lose in Tennessee. Tennesse is a Red State (Republican)

    ‘Popular my ass.’

    Gore won the popular vote in 2000. He just lost the Electoral College vote . Obama if the candidate is likely to repeat the Gore experience -imo. Clinton has a better chance of winning enough ECV’s . Which is why the Republicans would rather face Obama despite their protestations to the contrary!

    ‘Blacks and women have been escorted to the front of the line in the US for 20 years. And we’ve got a ruined public education system, 25% of young females with std’s, and a barely able to read, dumbed down, irresponsible, generation to show for it.’

    Could be because the USA has been governed by the geriatric white fart brigade who have turned the dollar into monopoly money, tripled the price of gas , killed 300,000 people in Iraq , lost 4,000 young American lives and are now busily dumping another 2 trillion dollars into the desert hole to round up the total to 5 billion ?

    30,000 bucks for every American household . Ah nothing like fiscal responsibility from the compassionate conservatives eh ?

    ‘The last thing this country needs is more of this ‘disenfranchised’ snakeoil crap.’

    I agree . America needs a new New Deal . Clinton is the nearest to an FDR that I can see . Universal Health Care for a start.

    ‘Throw personal responsibility at these democratic charletons and they melt like the witch in the Wizard of Oz.’

    Having seen personal responsibility exercised in government by the Republican charletons for the past 8 years a majority of Americans have seen their economy , their currency , and their reputation in the world melt away like snow off a ditch .

    New Wall St joke .

    Question :

    ‘Whats the difference between the American and Zimbabwe dollars ?’

    Answer :

    Another Republican Presidency !

  • BfB

    Americans have seen their economy , their currency , and their reputation in the world melt away like snow off a ditch .= Democratic congress.

    I do agree that the US is in a pile of shite. I’m not surprised you blame it on the old white guys. The women and illegal immigrants are doing a bang up job, from education to stealing everything that’s not nailed down. All liberal democrats. And, well, how can I argue Universal Healthcare with a useful idiot (well written, though) like you. Pity, you seem to have some basic intelligence, a bit to much education I think. You pacifist (coward) wankers can sit on the sideline and point your whiney fingers. We’ll punch the bad guy in the face, every time.

  • Greenflag

    ‘I don’t think it would be cynical for him to accept a vice Presidential slot it would be a shrewd move.’

    That’s what I was suggesting 🙂

    ‘Right now he has a number of open flanks. 4 years would give him time to sort out the weaknesses and gain experience.’

    Indeed . He’s been a one term Senator and has’nt been corrupted enough yet !

    ‘ The next 4 years is going to be one economic crisis after another.’

    The next year anyway . America may with a change of administration regain ‘confidence’ when the spendthrifts are gone .

  • Greenflag

    ‘I do agree that the US is in a pile of shite.’

    Full marks for the bleeding obvious as we would say !

    ‘I’m not surprised you blame it on the old white guys.’

    Naw I’m not really . I was just replying to your own baseless shite re immigrants and American women and ‘liberals ‘ in like manner as it were -fire with fire and all that !

    ‘and illegal immigrants are doing a bang up job’

    Just as well somebody is having kids otherwise the old white farts 25 years from won’t have anybody to pay the taxes to pay for the cat food they’ll be eating or the medicare they’ll no longer be able to afford . An honest debate about immigration would reveal that in this regard Americans have (just like Europeans ) brought it upon themselves ) by deciding that gardening and nannying kids and menial work can best be done by people who speak with hispanic accents . Well in previous centuries it was an irish or eastern or southern european accent that qualified one for those jobs.

    ‘ You pacifist (coward) wankers can sit on the sideline and point your whiney fingers.’

    Well the French and Germans and even the Brits tried to tell you 5 years ago but hey the man on the white horse had to have his war to finish Daddy’s botched job ?

    ‘We’ll punch the bad guy in the face, every time.’

    So I see . Except from here it looks very much like you are punching the bad guy’s fist with your face . And the face ain’t looking pretty any more . When the USA chooses to ignore or bypass the Geneva Convention on warfare and uses water boarding as a routine interrogation technique and the President of Iran gets a warm public open air reception in Iraq while the American President and now Republican candidate have to sneak in unannounced then it’s past obvious to all bar the most blind that the Emperor is minus his clothes and his minions have lost their wits . They did’nt like Admiral Fallon telling the truth about Iran and we all remember how they did’nt want to listen to Colen Powell on Iraq either !

    I heard Bill Gates complaining the other day in interview that America needed more immigrants with science , computer , engineering , and mathematical skills . Not one of the gobshites who interviewed Gates asked what I would have thought would have been the right question !

    ‘With 300 million people why would the USA not be able to produce these people from it’s own educational system ?

  • Greenflag

    If he (Obama) runs for President he is gambling all on a throw of the dice. The Republicans will attack his loyalty to America, his integrity, his inexperience, his ability to be Commander in Chief his ability on economics. ”

    True !

    ‘They could destroy his credibility.’

    No question . Thye’ve done such a bang up job destroying their own credibility they should find doing a similar job on Obama child’s play 🙁

    Ah compassionate conservatism ? Don’t you just love the way it used to sound until all the bodies startd mounting up and the gas price went through the roof and the dollar down the tubes and the millions of households facing foreclosure .

    Question :

    ‘What will be the difference between the GW Bush Presidency and a McCain presidency ‘

    Answer : Apart from another 100,000 dead Iraqis and more American dead and higher gas prices I can’t think of any !

  • Kathy C

    posted by Kathy C

    getting back to Hilary—John Hume who won the Nobel peace prize for his work in northern Ireland says about Hilary Clinton,

    “She played a psoitive role for over a decade in helping to pring peace to NI…she visted NI, met with very many people and gave very desisive support to the peace process….” he went on to say she made countless phone calls…personally talked to people and did what she could to help move the process forward.

    I did a yahoo search and found that she went to Ireland north and south several times….she did far more than Blair’s wife…. and as Senator…she has kept her office opened to the Irish and to finding a way forward

  • Crataegus

    Kathy C

    I have absolutely no doubt that she went out of her way to try to help here. She took an interest and helped in whatever way she could. I also have no doubt that she is genuinely interested in peace generally and in ensuring all receive proper health care.

    She never claimed to solve the problems here, no one can solve such problems until the local fools realise their conflict is pointless. What she helped to do was create the right background and perception of progress, confidence and promises of a brighter outward looking tomorrow.

    I for one am glad she did take the time and showed interest and cannot fathom why some begrudge her some credit.

  • Thanks, Kathy C @ 10:36 PM:

    You are right to pull the thread back to where it should be.

    About my first ever “political” moment was my father listening to the BBC news of the 1948 Presidential Election. From that immature age I can only recall his response whether it was something “good” or “bad”. I trust, at this distance, that I’m right in remembering he recognised one of the great American Presidents.

    The trouble is that we are merely hopin’ an’ wishin’ that the great American electorate at last get it right.

    They’ve not not got it right in a l-o-n-g while.

    The real problem (and credential) is that — this time (and for the first time time) — it’s about eco-socio-politico-economics.

  • Greenflag

    Kathy C,

    ‘She never claimed to solve the problems here’

    True

    ‘ no one can solve such problems until the local fools realise their conflict is pointless’

    Even more true.

    ‘I for one am glad she did take the time and showed interest and cannot fathom why some begrudge her some credit.’

    There are regrettably quite a few of the political fraternity in NI who seem to be genetically endowed with the talent to bite the hand that feeds them 🙁

    We should all be grateful for Hillary’s efforts for there is not a doubt in my mind that without the combined efforts of the Clinton’s, Tony Blair, Senator George Mitchell, , Albert Reynolds and Bert Ahern that NI would be where it was in the early 90’s or even worse.

    malcolm redfellow ,

    ‘The trouble is that we are merely hopin’ an’ wishin’ that the great American electorate at last get it right.’

    Some of us atheists may even be prayin 🙂

    The real problem (and credential) is that—this time (and for the first time time)—it’s about eco-socio-politico-economics.

    You might think that now and I would hope that would happen but November is a long way away and anything can happen . In the light of Pastor Wrights public ’emergence’ I remain even more convinced that only Clinton can win in November for the Democrats .That said I’d like to see Obama on the ticket.