Well that didn’t last long..

The apparent goodwill generated [not in the comments zone – Ed] by yesterday’s attendance of the Northern Ireland Sports Minister, Edwin Poots, at Páirc Esler would seem to have evaporated with the reported comments here – the report also claims that he arrived late to the game as part of a protest.

The North’s Sports Minister Edwin Poots is calling for an end to the playing of the Irish national anthem ahead of GAA games in the North. DUP politician Edwin Poots also says he wants to see an end to the naming of sports grounds after Irish patriots.

No actual quotes in that report though.. and there’s nothing on the DUP website.. Is that the official position of the NI Sports Minister? Adds There are some quotes from the minister here. And Sinn Féin’s Barry McElduff thinks the minister should “show greater sensitivity..”And a reminder, given how quickly the previous post encountered commenting related problems, play the ball.. and keep it civil.

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  • Slippy Joe

    Take a break willowfield, have you nothing else to do. Tell u what if u are so interested in Gaelic Games set up your own wee team and play GSTQ pre match, that should keep you happy as you hurl the sliothar between the posts.

  • dub

    willow,

    cut the crap… you know that what you are saying in relation to the uk anthem and northern ireland is pure croppy lie down stuff… this is unbecoming of you. what was that about moving beyond the certainties of unionism and nationalism? And if you really believe in the desirability of an inclusive irish identity, you would not just say that you have no objection to gstq being dropped by ni football team, you would say that would welcome it… Is the trench becoming more attractive to you again?

    more importantly you wilfully misunderstand the “constitutional settlement” in northern ireland.. i refer you again to my post above where i explained british govt. policy to you.. at the time you just said “and?”… implying you accepted that reality.. now you are back pedalling and giving Kensei and the demented Dubliner a lot more ammunition…

    congratulations…

  • Citizen Anderson

    I do not like Green Eggs and Ham.

    I do not them them

    Or your Sam!

    “Is that Hurley loaded?” is q. funny.

    But this Kevin Lynch memorial stuff (whilst I appeciate he played for the club) is a bit of an emotional hurdle.

    It will all need sweeping up in the greater back-slapping of our wider coming together.

    And who knows…maybe one day all those little country Orange halls will be Highland Ceilidh / Burns Supper clubs and our grandchildren will look at us with incredulity when we tell them you’d not have seen a Catholic in them “when I was your age”.

    Willow,

    I’m worried about your suggestion of a “neutral” GAA anthemn. Given the Phil Coulter disaster that afflicts Irish Rugby I’m scared they’ll give the commission to Daniel O’Donnell. I’d rather be forced to learn the Soldier Song. Be careful waht you wish for.

  • willowfield

    McNally

    You really should be aware that when someone refers to ‘fighting for the flag’ they are most likely to be referring to fighting for their ‘country’ or their ‘territory’ and not over the (generally) small piece of cloth that may comprise their national flag.

    Indeed, but I find the description of “fighting for a flag” ludicrous and the choice of description appears, in my mind, to elevate the status of a flag beyond that which is reasonable.

    And, as dub has pointed out, the pieces of cloth themselves have sparked violence in the past, and I do find that ludicrous.

    Greeneggsandham

    After reading through the entire thread above, it seems clear to me that while some Northern Unionists are open minded enough to see the GAA as a positive social and sporting body with its “political” constitution becoming more irrelevant as we draw closer to a 50% +1.

    I don’t think any unionists would take that view. They may take the view that the GAA is a positive social and sporting body, and some (but not many) may even consider its political constitution irrelevant. But if they do, it’s not because “we draw closer to 50%+1”.

    Conversely, it is the possibility of 50%+1 which seems to lead nationalists to consider the constitution irrelevant: we don’t need to change because we’re soon going to “win” and then we don’t have to worry about appeasing unionists.

    It is also clear to see that there are some people like Willowfield and others who will never see it as anything but a hiding place for bogey men and terrorists.

    It is untrue to say that I see it only as a “hiding place for bogey men and terrorists”. I see it as a successful sporting and community organisation and something positive within the nationalist community. That does not mean, however, that I pretend it is not a political organisation, nor that I pretend it does not turn a blind eye to the honouring of terrorists. Indeed, in some quarters, far from being a hiding place for terrorists it seems to be a place where terrorists can openly flaunt themselves.

    The GAA was founded to protect Irish Cultural Identity …

    Yet it chooses only to protect one type of Irish cultural identity.

    and has been a major success and I can understand why that would irk some people, but at its heart it is open to all and dosn’t hide behind any veil of secrecy.

    By its nature (nationalist), it’s not open to all, since unionists are excluded. This is acknowledged by most nationalist posters here.

  • iain

    “GSTQ is the anthem of NI. It is therefore appropriate to play the anthem in NI. That is reality.

    The Soldier’s Song is the anthem of SI. It is therefore appropriate to play the anthem in SI.”

    what law says this. Or is it just your opinion that this is the case? GSTQ is the anthem of the UK. Scotland and Wales don’t play it before their games. they play their own national anthems. Is that appropriate?

  • willowfield

    dub

    cut the crap… you know that what you are saying in relation to the uk anthem and northern ireland is pure croppy lie down stuff… this is unbecoming of you.

    “Croppy lie down” – what is it about this phrase that nationalists keep repeating it as an accusation against unionists? I had never come across it until being accused of telling it to nationalists. Believe me – no-one in unionist circles knows or uses this phrase.

    On the point, I’m afraid I don’t know that what I was saying was “pure croppy lie down stuff”. I stand over it all. Feel free to articulate precisely what you find wrong with it.

    And if you really believe in the desirability of an inclusive irish identity, you would not just say that you have no objection to gstq being dropped by ni football team, you would say that would welcome it…

    ?????

    Er, I did say that I would welcome it.

    more importantly you wilfully misunderstand the “constitutional settlement” in northern ireland..

    I don’t. NI is part of the UK and is recognised as such. As such, its anthem is GSTQ.

    i refer you again to my post above where i explained british govt. policy to you..

    British government policy doesn’t alter NI’s status as part of the UK.

  • dub

    willow,

    i lost the run of myself a little there.. just re read your post… you did say you personally wished for etc… in my emotion i appear to have misread it.. apologies.

    my point about the nature of the settlement in the north stands, an it is precisely because of the nature of that settlement that the ice is melting. It will freeze tight up again if the northern ireland is as british as finchley refrain is widely picked up again within unionism..

    regards,

    dub

  • willowfield

    IAIN

    what law says this.

    In the UK, I’m not sure if it’s a matter of law. In SI, I don’t know either – would be interested to know, though.

    Or is it just your opinion that this is the case?

    No: I’m confident that the SS is the anthem of the South and GSTQ of the North (as part of the UK).

    GSTQ is the anthem of the UK. Scotland and Wales don’t play it before their games. they play their own national anthems. Is that appropriate?

    Are you referring to football anthems? Yes, you are right that Scotland and Wales don’t play GSTQ. NI do, though.

  • Slippy Joe

    “far from being a hiding place for terrorists it seems to be a place where terrorists can openly flaunt themselves.”

    Willow, are you referring to bloody sunday in Croke Park?

  • Greeneggsandham

    Willowfield:
    Conversely, it is the possibility of 50%+1 which seems to lead nationalists to consider the constitution irrelevant: we don’t need to change because we’re soon going to “win” and then we don’t have to worry about appeasing unionists.

    I never said anything about winning but I find it interesting that you would see this as a loss and not the natural democratic wishes of the majority in NI. (That is the game we are playing? No?)
    As for not having to appease Unionists, I have a different slant, I believe that the onus is on Nationalists to make sure that if it does happen (50%+1) Unionists should be accommadted in every reasonable way, (I don’t want a million angry unionists in the country!) We will have to use our charm, and yes, I’m sure some changes will be made to the flag/anthem post unification although I hope they keep the tune and just change the words.

    Wrt the GAA being a political organisation, It does what it says on the tin! No secrets about it!

    As for not welcoming unionists, I think they have excluded themselves to be honest. There are no signs up saying they are not welcome. They all have free choice as to whether to attend sporting events and clubs. They will certainly not be discriminated against because of their religion!

  • iain

    willowfield,
    so there’s no law that says its appropriate to play only GSTQ in the jurisdiction of the UK. Its just your opinion that’s its not.

    Is it appropriate to play, say, the American national anthem when the U.S. president visits the UK?

    Was it appropriate that GSTQ was played at Croke park when members of the English Nation had come to see their National team play?

    If it just opinion that makes it appropriate for a national anthem to be played at a sporting event, then maybe the GAA can ask over the PA system at the next inter-county game for a show of hands if people are in favour of playing ‘A na b’ or not.

    And, incidently, people like Citizen make me think that the A na b shouldn’t be played before GAA games, but then i read your comments and i’m not sure anymore!

  • willowfield

    I never said anything about winning but I find it interesting that you would see this as a loss and not the natural democratic wishes of the majority in NI.

    If unionists lost a referendum it would, by definition and rather obviously, be a loss. Labour won the last general election according to the “natural (whatever that means) democratic wishes” in the UK, but that did not mean that the Conservatives didn’t lose!

    As for not having to appease Unionists, I have a different slant, I believe that the onus is on Nationalists to make sure that if it does happen (50%+1) Unionists should be accommadted in every reasonable way, (I don’t want a million angry unionists in the country!)

    But you’re only willing to do that in the event of a 50%+1 referendum victory, and not before.

    Wrt the GAA being a political organisation, It does what it says on the tin! No secrets about it!

    Tell that to those nationalists who claim otherwise.

    As for not welcoming unionists, I think they have excluded themselves to be honest.

    So the GAA sets itself up as an overtly nationalist organisation, but it is unionists who exclude themselves. Right.

    There are no signs up saying they are not welcome.

    That old chestnut. You don’t need a sign to make someone unwelcome.

  • Greeneggsandham

    Like I said… It will take a generation!

  • pacman

    No Willow – you just need to rule over them for 60 years. It obviously guts you that we still won’t do as we’re told.

  • kensei

    “It is also a “place where there really is All Ireland organisation and Northerners are fully part of and involved in the life of the Nation [sic]”….”

    It isn’t a significant cornerstone of Nationalist culture in the way the GAA is. Different development, different significance. I would be against the Nationalisation of the IRFU as I would the denationalisation of the GAA. They fulfil different roles and have different histories.

    “So it doesn’t follow that all-Ireland organisations need to be nationalist in nature.”

    I do not believe I argued that anywhere. I argued that the GAA is, and due to its history and role within Nationalism, probably should be, and that it is to change, it must make demonstrable difference towards those Nationalist aspirations.

    “A patriot! You’re sounding even more like Patrick Pearse. It’s 2008, man.”

    And patriotism is still vital and relevant and an important binding of nation states. There is a brilliant quote by Lemass about it which I can’t source at the moment, along the lines that patriotism is a feeling of pride towards your country and the desire to add to its achievements.

    “Good. There are those who do, though, including on this thread.”

    There are. They hare trying to illustrate a difference between the way the OO and the GAA that does exist. It simply doesn’t mean the GAA isn’t totally immersed within nationalist culture.

    “I think it would make a difference in time.”

    There is no evidence whatsoever of that. Motivation matters. And their motivation isn’t that it brings them closer to the South, but that it cuts off Northern Nationalists from it.

    If it could be demonstrated that this would make some difference to the willingness of Unionists to consider a UI, I would certainly consider it. But I believe Unionists are generally committed to their Unionism, and stripping Nationalist Ireland of it heart will not accomplish anything like that.

    I want an Ireland that can embrace all. But within that there must be room for some separateness and celebration of the different components that make up the Nation. Irish Gaelic culture is an important part of that. The tricolour and the Soldier’s Song are not sectarian; Irish is not sectarian; the associated culture is not sectarian. No more than any other flag or culture. You reject them not because they are sectarian, but because you see them as threatening to the Constitutional position of NI and the cohesion of it as a separate entity.

    “You seem to value the maintenance of a strict, Pearse-style 19th and 20th century nationalist identity….”

    No, that is your prejudice projected onto me.I am proud of my country; within that, I am proud of the strand that I come from and what it has added to the island, in general. I acknowledge there are other strands, and I quite like there are new arrivals that will add to the achievements. I simply don’t think that we should all be the same. there needs to be strong and important touch stones where people share space and aspirations. there needs equally, to be spaces where they celebrate what makes them different. That will truly result in an Ireland with “a nationality which may embrace Protestant, Catholic, and Dissenter, Milesian and Cromwellian, the Irishman of a hundred generations, and the stranger who is within our gates”.

    I have specific problems with the OO in regardless sectarianism and marching, but if they were dealt with I would have no problem wholeheartedly backing its right to be reflective solely of a strand of Unionist and Protestant culture; nor do I believe it would be improved by becoming “cross community” or “inclusive”.

    “Presumably you calculate that there is no point in diluting the old-style identity because sooner or later 50%+1 will be achieved anyway. That may be a clever calculation.”

    If 50%+1 came and it meant the destruction of Northern Protestants culture, it would mark the complete and utter failure of republicanism.

    “On the other hand, 50%+1 is probably less likely to be achieved….”

    That as may be. but there is a cost, as I outlined, and it is heavy for no demonstrable gain, given past history.

    “So … a shared future is a risk for both nationalism and unionism,…. ”

    We have a Shared Future. None of us are going anywhere. This isn’t a binary choice. There needs to be some Shared spaces, and they need to be strong and preferably organically evolved. Equally, there needs to be some separate spaces and we need to be comfortable with those too – we are not all the same.

    And I don’t see this simply in terms of Unionist / Nationalists. It applies equally to Polish-Irish, Chinese Irish, African-Irish and so on.

  • willowfield

    Iain

    so there’s no law that says its appropriate to play only GSTQ in the jurisdiction of the UK. Its just your opinion that’s its not.

    I don’t know if there’s any such law, but I doubt it: in the UK, convention is as important as the law. I don’t think the law, in any case, is likely to be a useful vehicle for deeming appropriateness.

    I should have thought that it is a rather uncontroversial “opinion” that it is appropriate to play one’s own national anthem (at suitable events) within one’s own country.

    Do you think it is inappropriate to play the UK anthem in the UK?

    Is it appropriate to play, say, the American national anthem when the U.S. president visits the UK?

    Of course. Does the Southern Irish president attend every GAA match in NI?

    Was it appropriate that GSTQ was played at Croke park when members of the English Nation had come to see their National team play?

    Of course, although it would be even more appropriate, in my view, if the England rugby team adopted a specifically English anthem.

    If it just opinion that makes it appropriate for a national anthem to be played at a sporting event, then maybe the GAA can ask over the PA system at the next inter-county game for a show of hands if people are in favour of playing ‘A na b’ or not.

    If the GAA is going to change its policy it will presumably have to do so through the proper channels at national level and not by a show of hands at a match.

    And, incidently, people like Citizen make me think that the A na b shouldn’t be played before GAA games, but then i read your comments and i’m not sure anymore!

    Interesting. And why is that?

  • Slippy Joe

    Do you know what willowfield, you have won me over with your reasonable arguments. Us Nationalists have got away above our station. You have convinced me that much i think we should go back to the days when flying the tri-colour was an illegal offence, likely to cause civil disruption. Who do we think we are? C’mon lads stand for the British National Anthem like your’e told to, and bow for the monarch. Theres a good little bunch of british subjects. We got ahead of ourselves there, forgot how sensitive you suffering wee calves could be, won’t happen again.

  • iain

    Willowfield

    “I should have thought that it is a rather uncontroversial “opinion” that it is appropriate to play one’s own national anthem (at suitable events) within one’s own country.”

    Well quite. i guess most people who attend a GAA match (though not all) would belong to the Irish nation of which A na b is the national anthem. Unless you’re saying they don’t belong in NI, i don’t follow any consistancy in your ‘logic’ (for want of a better word).

    “Of course. Does the Southern Irish president attend every GAA match in NI?”

    does the Queen attend football matches in NI (ever)?

  • Greeneggsandham

    Willowfield:

    But you’re only willing to do that in the event of a 50%+1 referendum victory, and not before.

    Are you willing to re-unite the country before 50%+1??? If so, all of this nasty voting could be done away with.

    If Unionism wants to change the way Ireland works it should get involved and do so. Shouting at us from the sidelines and telling us what to do will not work! Com’on over!

  • willowfield

    iain

    Well quite. i guess most people who attend a GAA match (though not all) would belong to the Irish nation of which A na b is the national anthem. Unless you’re saying they don’t belong in NI, i don’t follow any consistancy in your ‘logic’ (for want of a better word).

    That’s kind of the point, though, isn’t it: only nationalists attend GAA because it is a nationalist-only sport, as indicated by the flags and anthems used in NI. If you want to make the sport inclusive, you need to change those flags and anthems. The message being given out here is that you don’t want the GAA to become inclusive. Fair enough – it’s nationalists’ and the GAA’s call.

    does the Queen attend football matches in NI (ever)?

    Does the President attend all GAA matches in SI?

    SLIPPY JOE

    If you read my posts you’d see that I suggested playing anthems other than GSTQ or else not having any anthems. Deliberately misrepresenting what I say doesn’t do your credibility much good.

  • Slippy Joe

    “GSTQ is the anthem of NI. It is therefore appropriate to play the anthem in NI. That is reality.”

    Theres what you said willowfield, doesn’t appear to be much leverage in that. Ouch, that mustn’t do your creditibility much good.

  • cladycowboy

    WILLOWFIELD

    “(1) use the symbols of whichever the state the match is taking place;”

    Firstly, the vast majority of GAA games do not have AnB played beforehand. It is only procedure with County games and business-end club games.

    Secondly, AnB is played as it’s a GAA policy to promote Irish identity. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the state the game is played in. That is why you’ll have AnB played in London and New York during the Championship games and in a recent GAA festival in Dubai, there is no hat tip to the nation state in which the game takes place.

    This policy seems to work entirely well in these other countries and no-one feels excluded due to this. For it to be a problem in an Ulster town is beyond surreal.

    “They wouldn’t be excluded if they adopted the sensible attitude of recognising that NI is part of the UK and that is its anthem,”

    See above for reason AnB is played. Likewise, if ‘Unionists’ adopt the sensible attitude that AnB is the ‘anthem’ of the GAA then there will be no problem.

    “Indeed it is. Unfortunately, though, it excludes many Irish people by identifying solely with nationalism”

    There isn’t an organisation yet founded that everyone can identify with completely. The GAA however, has fantastic popular appeal.

    “I doubt whether those people to whom you refer are unionists.”

    I’m sorry, i don’t get your point. No-one is excluded by the GAA, it’s open to all. The only exclusion is self-exclusion. Are ‘Unionists’ to be designated as some sort of Racial-Religious grouping and be granted equality legislation?

    “Out of interest, how does it promote Irish dancing? ”

    Not a huge fan myself, although enjoyed Riverdance. I think GAA halls open their doors to Irish Dance classes.

    “You’re contradicting some of the other posters (dub, Kensei) who say that the GAA is not merely a sporting organisation: it is also a political one.”

    I’m not. Some elements of the GAA constitution can be viewed as political and moreso in the past, these were taken more seriously than today. I was making the point that attending a GAA game is not a political act, it’s for the love of the game, all are welcome, leave your politics at home.

    “The GAA is open to all.

    Unless you’re a unionist!”

    Unionists are welcome, Mr Poots himself attended recently. Leave this incredibly heavy weight of unionist political baggage at the door and go see for yourself a Gaelic game.

    Perhaps you were joking? Are atheists, republicans and misogynists excluded from events that play GSTQ on the same basis that unionists are excluded from the minority of GAA games that play AnB?

  • willowfield

    Greeneggsandham

    Are you willing to re-unite the country before 50%+1??? If so, all of this nasty voting could be done away with.

    I don’t know what you mean. You appear to be saying that you’d be content for the GAA to become inclusive after a “united Ireland” but not before. I don’t think it should be dependent on 50%+1.

    If Unionism wants to change the way Ireland works it should get involved and do so. Shouting at us from the sidelines and telling us what to do will not work! Com’on over!

    The onus is on the GAA to make itself inclusive. If it wants to.

  • iain

    inclusive to who?

    Edwin Poots, opposer of all things Gaelic.
    i don’t think so. better off rid.

    Citizen Anderson
    yes, maybe. better to ditch the political trapping if it aids promoting Gaelic culture and games to ‘the other’ Irish nation

    Northern nationalists might want to keep the flag and anthem as it demonstrates belong to the Irish nation. to them i say ‘Mary McAleese’. Ultimately though, the wishes of Irish people in NI have to be considered before any change. Inclusive means including them too after all.

  • willowfield

    Slippy Joe

    “GSTQ is the anthem of NI. It is therefore appropriate to play the anthem in NI. That is reality.”
    Theres what you said willowfield, doesn’t appear to be much leverage in that.

    Yes and I also said the GAA could use a different anthem or no anthems if it didn’t want to use GSTQ. That doesn’t contradict the observation that playing the anthem of NI in NI is appropriate. The other GAA solutions would be equally appropriate. Try thinking a bit more deeply about this.

  • willowfield

    CLADYCOWBOY

    Firstly, the vast majority of GAA games do not have AnB played beforehand. It is only procedure with County games and business-end club games.

    That’s great. Should make any change less problematic.

    Secondly, AnB is played as it’s [sic] a GAA policy to promote Irish identity.

    I don’t see how playing another Irish anthem would be inconsistent with that policy.

    It has nothing whatsoever to do with the state the game is played in.

    But it should be: if they play the Southern anthem in the South, they should play a Northern anthem in the North. Either that, or adopt a different all-Ireland anthem and use it throughout Ireland. Or else knock the anthems on the head altogether (the present policy is a bit OTT).

    That is why you’ll have AnB played in London and New York during the Championship games and in a recent GAA festival in Dubai, there is no hat tip to the nation state in which the game takes place.

    Well, that’s wrong, too. They should play an all-Ireland anthem at those games since the GAA is an all-Ireland organisation and not merely confined to the South.

    This policy seems to work entirely well in these other countries and no-one feels excluded due to this.

    I can’t imagine that too many unionists attend these events.

    “They wouldn’t be excluded if they adopted the sensible attitude of recognising that NI is part of the UK and that is its anthem,”
    See above for reason AnB is played.

    I don’t follow how your above reasoning links into the quoted text.

    Likewise, if ‘Unionists’ adopt the sensible attitude that AnB is the ‘anthem’ of the GAA then there will be no problem.

    But it is the very fact that the GAA has adopted the Southern anthem as its anthem that is the problem!

    There isn’t an organisation yet founded that everyone can identify with completely. The GAA however, has fantastic popular appeal.

    Fantastic popular appeal … among nationalists. Zero appeal among unionists.

    I’m sorry, i don’t get your point. No-one is excluded by the GAA, it’s open to all.

    Unionists are excluded: it’s a nationalist organisation.

    The only exclusion is self-exclusion.

    It is the GAA, not unionists, which has defined and asserted Gaelic games as nationalist!

    Are ‘Unionists’ to be designated as some sort of Racial-Religious grouping and be granted equality legislation?

    Unionists, as well as nationalists, and anyone else of any political opinion, are already covered under the equality provisions of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. But I fail to see what equality legislation has got to do with the matter under discussion.

    Not a huge fan myself, although enjoyed Riverdance. I think GAA halls open their doors to Irish Dance classes.

    Not much promotion going on, then. It’s really just a sporting organisation, isn’t it, (with political baggage)?

    “You’re contradicting some of the other posters (dub, Kensei) who say that the GAA is not merely a sporting organisation: it is also a political one.”
    I’m not.

    So now you’re saying it is political? I wish you’d make your mind up.

    Some elements of the GAA constitution can be viewed as political and moreso in the past, these were taken more seriously than today. I was making the point that attending a GAA game is not a political act, it’s for the love of the game, all are welcome, leave your politics at home.

    That’s how it should be. Unfortunately, though, the GAA doesn’t leave its politics at home: it flaunts them publicly at every match in NI.

    Unionists are welcome, Mr Poots himself attended recently.

    How can unionists be welcome when the organisation is a nationalist one?

    Leave this incredibly heavy weight of unionist political baggage at the door and go see for yourself a Gaelic game.

    It is the GAA that needs to rid itself of political baggage, not unionists! You are blaming the excluded instead of the excluder.

    Perhaps you were joking? Are atheists, republicans and misogynists excluded from events that play GSTQ on the same basis that unionists are excluded from the minority of GAA games that play AnB?

    It is entirely appropriate to play the national anthem at certain events. In NI that means playing the NI anthem. In SI it means the SI anthem.

    It is, conversely, inappropriate to play the Southern anthem in NI and to play the Northern anthem in SI. To do so is a deliberate political act that identifies the organisation concerned with one community only and sends out a message that those of the other community are not welcome.

  • willowfield

    Apologies for the incorrect correction above.

  • Slippy Joe

    So then explain to me what you are saying, are you saying it is inappropriate to play a n b at a gaa match in Northern Ireland. Correct me if im wrong but what you are essentially saying is that its appropriate for one section of the community to play their anthem, but not ok for the other section of the community to play theirs. In your mind is this still a protestant state for a protestant people. You do know that isn’t the reality, just making sure like, because otherwise you don’t make sense to me. There i tried to think deeply about what you have been saying and thats what i came up with, and thats all i can draw from reading your comments.

  • willowfield

    So then explain to me what you are saying, are you saying it is inappropriate to play a n b at a gaa match in Northern Ireland.

    Yes, of course. Unless, perhaps, if it was in honour of a visiting team and a NI anthem was also played.

    Correct me if im wrong but what you are essentially saying is that its appropriate for one section of the community to play their anthem, but not ok for the other section of the community to play theirs.

    No: I’m saying it’s appropriate for the anthem of one country to be played in its own country. One community may regard the anthem of another country as its own, but that does not make it the anthem of the country. By adopting the anthem of the other country as a community badge, they identify that event as an event for one community only.

    In your mind is this still a protestant state for a protestant people.

    Not at all. Why do you ask?

    You do know that isn’t the reality, just making sure like, because otherwise you don’t make sense to me.

    And what is it you don’t understand?

  • kensei

    “GSTQ is the anthem of NI. It is therefore appropriate to play the anthem in NI. That is reality”

    The state is not the people in it.
    The state is not the people in it.
    The state is not the people in it.
    The state is not the people in it.
    The state is not the people in it.
    The state is not the people in it.
    The state is not the people in it.
    The state is not the people in it.
    The state is not the people in it.
    The state is not the people in it.

    How many times does this need said before you get it, willow? GSTQ may the anthem of the legal entity, but for Nationalists it is not ttheir anthem and never will be.

    We consent to respect the rule of law and the democratic process while 50%+1 say the state remains in the UK. That doesn’t mean we have to identify ourselves with the state. It does not mean we have to consider the anthem ours and have it played at GAA matches. You might like it otherwise, but that’s the reality.

  • willowfield

    The state is not the people in it.

    Surely the state is the primary instrument by which the people organise their society.

    In any case, what is the relevance of the statement?

    How many times does this need said before you get it, willow? GSTQ may the anthem of the legal entity, but for Nationalists it is not ttheir anthem and never will be.

    That’s great for them, but – as you concede – GSTQ remains NI’s anthem and it is therefore appropriate to play it at certain events in NI.

    That doesn’t mean we have to identify ourselves with the state.

    Tolerating the outworkings of the state’s status isn’t the same as identifying with it.

    It does not mean we have to consider the anthem ours and have it played at GAA matches.

    I never said it did.

    I still think, though, that it would be a positive thing to play it, regardless of whether you think it’s yours. More realistically, as I’ve repeated ad nauseum – play a NI anthem other than GSTQ or play a neutral all-Ireland anthem, or play no anthems. There are 4 options for you – only 1 of them involves playing GSTQ of which you apparently have such an visceral dislike.

  • pacman

    Poor willow. He has never really recovered from the trauma of us getting the vote and being empowered.

    It was so much easier when we knew our place.

  • willowfield

    If you’re incapable of participating in the discussion, just stay out, but kindly desist from constructing straw men.

    You’re welcome to join in with any valid points you may have.

  • slippy joe

    it seems to me that you are very intolerant to the values of one section of the community, the playing of the anthem before certain games is something which always has been done in the GAA. If unionists are offended then that is the perogative. If we are to live in an equal society then maybe it would be an idea to tolerate both traditions rather than stripping ours down, which lets not forget has happened before in this state (amongst other things) and then look what happened.

  • pacman

    So are you willow. When you raise a valid one and quit your monotone this “discussion” might actually become interesting.

  • slippy joe

    it seems to me that you are very intolerant to the values of one section of the community, the playing of the anthem before certain games is something which always has been done in the GAA. If unionists are offended then that is THEIR perogative. If we are to live in an equal society then maybe it would be an idea to tolerate both traditions rather than stripping ours down, which lets not forget has happened before in this state (amongst other things) and then look what happened.

    apologies for typo

  • janeymac

    Willowfield

    “It is entirely appropriate to play the national anthem at certain events. In NI that means playing the NI anthem. In SI it means the SI anthem.”

    It will never be appropriate to play the anthem and flag of NI at a GAA game while they remain GSTQ and the Union Flag. AnaB is the GAA’s anthem. As a very democratic 32 county organisation a fair bit of work would have to be done to change that!

    Think again if you want to fly the emblems of the British State that did its best to destroy Irish culture which the GAA was specifically founded to protect & promote. Did you not notice the controversy about the English game in Croke Park? Multiply that by every GAA ground in the entire Island.

    Simpler maybe to think of a new flag & anthem for NI.

    Fair play to Poots for going to the game in the first place even if he avoided the anthem (By the way playing AnaB was not entirely inappropriate in this instance as Donegal territorially in the Republic!)

    Where does the changing of names from ‘patriots’etc. stop. Would unionists want to change Croke Park because it is called after a Roman Catholic Bishop, or would they feel uncomfortable sitting in the Hogan stand because it is named after someone who was shot by the British Army in that very stadium?

    As an aside, if an Irish Gov. Minister did what Poots did if invited to attend a NI Football match the Unionists would be screaming blue murder!

  • cladycowboy

    WILLOWFIELD

    “But it should be: if they play the Southern anthem in the South, they should play a Northern anthem in the North. Either that, or adopt a different all-Ireland anthem and use it throughout Ireland. Or else knock the anthems on the head altogether (the present policy is a bit OTT).”

    Who made you King of the World? AnB is played before big GAA games everywhere on the planet, it has diddly-squat to do with NI. Are you replulsed by the idea that AnB is played in NI at all? It’s played in London . It’s not exclusionary. Perhaps a little ‘British tolerance’ can be afforded it in little Finchley also?

    “Well, that’s wrong, too. They should play an all-Ireland anthem at those games since the GAA is an all-Ireland organisation and not merely confined to the South.”

    AnB is all Ireland. It has big appeal in both Jurisdictions.

    “This policy seems to work entirely well in these other countries and no-one feels excluded due to this.

    I can’t imagine that too many unionists attend these events.”

    Sometimes when you ask yourself the question ‘is it just me?’, you have to be prepared for the possibility that the answer is yes.

    “Unionists are excluded: it’s a nationalist organisation.”

    Correct. The GAA could be described as a Nationalist organisation, like the governing body for American football could be described as such.

    However, Gaelic games in themselves cannot be described as ‘nationalist’, the idea is ludicrous. Hence, why don’t a few of these ‘unionists’ who are desperate to play/watch the games but can’t at the minute in case they catch a bad dose of nationalism at a game set up their own teams, own governing body and simply ignore the GAA?

    If it’s successful they’ll have more scope to approach the GAA with ideas of reform than standing and shouting from the sidelines (not literally of course, nationalism alert).

    “That’s how it should be. Unfortunately, though, the GAA doesn’t leave its politics at home: it flaunts them publicly at every match in NI.”

    The GAA promotes Irish games and identity. The playing of AnB is no more a political act in Casement park than it is in London, Riyadh or Sydney. You’re the only one seeing politics in the anthem playing.

    “How can unionists be welcome when the organisation is a nationalist one?”

    Er, because they are invited to join and participate. Why must there be mutual exclusion? Is a unionist neighbour not welcome in his nationalist neighbour’s house ever? If the nationalist makes good bread, it seems churlish to stand and say you’ll not try some unless he takes the picture of JFK from the wall.

    Mr Poots is a few years late attending after the British Sports minister Tony Banks did, seems incredible a member of HMG can attend but a unionist can’t.

  • willowfield

    slippy joe

    it seems to me that you are very intolerant to the values of one section of the community, the playing of the anthem before certain games is something which always has been done in the GAA.

    I am not intolerant of the values of one section of the community and neither do I deny that the anthem has always been played before certain games.

    If unionists are offended then that is THEIR perogative.

    Equally it is the GAA’s prerogative to exclude unionists (to use your language) by adopting certain flags and anthems as political statements; or to seek to include them by changing them.

    If we are to live in an equal society then maybe it would be an idea to tolerate both traditions rather than stripping ours down, which lets not forget has happened before in this state (amongst other things) and then look what happened.

    I have no intention of “stripping yours down”. I merely suggest that it might be good if the GAA became inclusive. But if the GAA wishes to remain exclusive that is its call.

  • kensei

    “Surely the state is the primary instrument by which the people organise their society.”

    Yes. However, this organisation only holds by slim majority, and a huge minority don’t like it. They respect democracy as the only instrument for change, and the need fort he rule of law, but that’s it. No love for the state itself. Oh, and based on illegitimate foundations to boot.

    “In any case, what is the relevance of the statement?”

    You claim that GSTQ is the anthem of Northern Ireland. Which is true as far as it goes. It is not however, the anthem of a large minority of the people within the state. It does not follow that legal status automatically means that an anthem therefore deserves loyalty and should be respected. It does not mean they should be standing for it as “their” anthem to make you feel better.

    “That’s great for them, but – as you concede – GSTQ remains NI’s anthem and it is therefore appropriate to play it at certain events in NI.”

    Not given the make up of our society. Assuming there was a neutral anthem, then yes in certain situations, though I doubt either side would really give two figs about it. But not at GAA matches. They play the anthem of the Irish Republic regardless of where in the world an intercounty match is played. There is absolutely no reason that the Six Counties should be treated any differently.

    “Tolerating the outworkings of the state’s status isn’t the same as identifying with it.”

    I tolerate the state’s out workings and the need for the democratic process. I have no desire for the current Constitutional position which I believe to be a disaster and have no loyalty to – I’d end it this second if given the option – to be rubbed in my face, triumphalst-stylee. I respect the democratic process as the only way to change things. I care not one jot for the state, it’s symbols or its institutions, nor do I intend to pretend to in order to make you happy.

    “I still think, though, that it would be a positive thing to play it, regardless of whether you think it’s yours.”

    Of course you do. You are a Unionist and labour under the impression that a state where 95% of people think it deserves their loyalty is equivalent to one where the number is probably under 60% and the other 40% view it as alien and imposed.

    “More realistically, as I’ve repeated ad nauseum – play a NI anthem other than GSTQ or play a neutral all-Ireland anthem, or play no anthems. There are 4 options for you – only 1 of them involves playing GSTQ of which you apparently have such an visceral dislike. ”

    I see no reason why the North should be treated any differently from the rest of the island simply because the Government changes. I’m a Nationalist, so I would say that.

    But in any case, the policy is the same regardless: anywhere in the world an inter-county game is played, the flag and anthem of the Irish Republic should be played. Why should NI be different?

  • The Dubliner

    “Irish nationalism has a monopoly on Irishness – quite an obnoxious attitude.” – Willow

    This is the core issue: self-determination. Irish nationalism is the default value of the Irish nation state. It is the reason why the nation state exists, not just Ireland for the Irish, but England for the English, France for the French, etc. Ergo, Spanish nationalism has a monopoly on ‘Spanishness’ that is not subject to the discretion of a minority of Spain’s citizens who identify themselves as Portuguese.

    Article 1 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights states: “All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.” In short, those who identify themselves as a “peoples” have a claim to self-determination that can only be realised by the expedient of a nation state wherein they “freely pursue” their own destiny.

    As I explained to you before, Willow: Two concepts appear here, the plural “peoples” and the collective right of “peoples” to determine their own destinies. So, we how need to settle of a definition of “peoples” and on the method by which “peoples” can determine their own destinies in accordance with Article 1. The UN’s Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples and the International Court of Justice makes it clear that self-determination is the absolute right of peoples of colonized territories, defining “peoples” as the population, or people, of a fixed territorial entity.

    “Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.”

    The other commonly accepted definition of “peoples” in international jurisprudence was proposed by the UN’s Special Rapporteur Martínez Cobo:

    “Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing in those territories, or parts of them. They form at present non-dominant sectors of society and are determined to preserve, develop and transmit to future generations their ancestral territories, and their ethnic identity, as the basis of their continued existence as peoples, in accordance with their own cultural patterns, social institutions and legal systems.”

    So, we can now apply these definitions and proceed to say the people of Ireland have a right to self-determination, which means that they and not any other “peoples” or British colonial power will “freely determine” their own destiny. As it stands, the demands of those who identify themselves as British in the north for a second nation state suppresses the right of those who identify themselves as Irish to self-determination, i.e. to “freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”

    They cannot, for example, express their culture by putting the road signs in Irish language as is their wish and as is their inalienable right. This is immoral and a clear violation of the principle of self-determination. However, they have acceded to the arrangement due to political expediency of recognising that unionists were prepared to engage in sectarian civil war rather than accede to democratic will of the majority, to international principles, or to international law.

    A “nation state” is the entity by which people can freely determine their own destinies in accordance with Article 1. If you claim to be British, then you will find that your nation state already exists; and, ergo, there is no case to be made under international law for the creation or retention of a second nation state. If you do not claim to be British but some other expedient and ad hoc ethnic group, then you will find that your claim self-determination is rendered void by the indigenous people having a prior claim to the territory.

    You can, of course, be British in Ireland just as you can be Irish in Great Britain. The Irish in Great Britain do not make demands of the British to compromise British sovereignty or self-determination by having an Irish head of state to replace their monarch. The British in Ireland should learn the same etiquette.

  • The Dubliner

    Continued

    By all means, let us build this “shared future” but only if it respects the principle of self-determination. If by “shared” you actually mean that you have an equal claim to self-determination which can be used to cancel out the claim of the Irish to self-determination, then you are badly mistaken. As is stands, Article 2 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights already places an obligation of those who have acheived self-determination to respect those people whose claim lies elsewhere:

    “Each State Party to the present Covenant undertakes to respect and to ensure to all individuals within its territory and subject to its jurisdiction the rights recognized in the present Covenant, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.”

    Therefore, you are already entitled to a shared future. Which, of course, raises the question of what it is over and above that which you are entitled to. If you think the southern Irish will ever agree that you have a veto over their right to self-determination, then you have confused them with their northern counterparts and there ‘particular circumstances.’

  • The Dubliner

    Typo: “Therefore, you are already entitled to a shared future. Which, of course, raises the question of what it is [i]you want[/i] over and above that which you are [i]already[/i] entitled to.”

  • Slippy Joe

    Willowfield, this is the last point im going to make, retort if u wish but i’m getting bored, and i’m starting to worry about you because you have been on this all day.

    “Equally it is the GAA’s prerogative to exclude unionists (to use your language) by adopting certain flags and anthems as political statements; or to seek to include them by changing them.”

    It isn’t the GAAs prerogative to exclude unionists, its the GAAs prerogative to promote Gealic Games and Irish culture on a 32 county basis. That unionists prefer to pledge allegiance to Britain is not the GAAs problem. Nor is the GAA exclusive, now how did this thread start again, could someone remind me, oh thats it, it was about a DUP member attending a GAA match where he was seen sitting with the GAA president. If Edwins any good i’m sure he could line out for whatever his nearest local club is.

  • willowfield

    Janeymac

    It will never be appropriate to play the anthem and flag of NI at a GAA game while they remain GSTQ and the Union Flag.

    Then play a different NI anthem and a different NI flag.

    AnaB is the GAA’s anthem. As a very democratic 32 county organisation a fair bit of work would have to be done to change that!

    Then do the work.

    Think again if you want to fly the emblems of the British State that did its best to destroy Irish culture which the GAA was specifically founded to protect & promote.

    I’ve said umpteen times on this thread that GSTQ and the Union Flag do not need to be used to include unionists. Your point therefore is largely irrelevant.

    Did you not notice the controversy about the English game in Croke Park?

    No, actually. Apart from a few GAA old-stagers from the sticks making some rather sad comments in the media, the event seemed to pass off wonderfully well. But – as I’ve said ad nauseum [sigh] – I would be more than happy for the GAA to use an all-Ireland flag and anthem, adopt NI flag and anthem other than GSTQ/Union Flag, or use no flags and anthems.

    Simpler maybe to think of a new flag & anthem for NI.

    As I’ve suggested.

    Where does the changing of names from ‘patriots’etc. stop. Would unionists want to change Croke Park because it is called after a Roman Catholic Bishop, or would they feel uncomfortable sitting in the Hogan stand because it is named after someone who was shot by the British Army in that very stadium?

    It would have been great if the GAA could have been like other organisations and just adopted normal names rather than insisting on political names. I think it would be unrealistic to change all the names of all the clubs and stadia associated only with nationalism, but a few symbolic changes would go down well. Equally, it would be good to name any future competitions, etc., in honour of figures from the other tradition and to cease calling such future competitions, etc., after nationalists. Those clubs and counties in NI might like to think about the appeal of some of the names of clubs and grounds located in areas which might otherwise be open to the local unionist population.

    As an aside, if an Irish [sic] Gov. Minister did what Poots did if invited to attend a NI Football match the Unionists would be screaming blue murder!

    If a Southern minister snubbed the anthem at a NI match, it would be equally as offensive as a Northern minister snubbing the anthem at a ROI match: that is the equivalent, not the GAA situation. The GAA equivalent would be a unionist sports club in Donegal, say, playing GSTQ at all its matches and the Southern minister arriving late in order to miss it. That would be totally understandable.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>So are you willow. When you raise a valid one and quit your monotone this “discussion” might actually become interesting.<< When? A contributor on another blog who had been engaged with the Willow for yonks, in a moment of frustration remarked that he would rather chew his fingers off than engage with him again. The nickname technovampire soon followed. Anyone with the patience to follow with the above might understand how the guy felt. Pedantic quantity over quality.

  • willowfield

    CLADYCOWBOY

    “But it should be: if they play the Southern anthem in the South, they should play a Northern anthem in the North. Either that, or adopt a different all-Ireland anthem and use it throughout Ireland. Or else knock the anthems on the head altogether (the present policy is a bit OTT).”
    AnB is played before big GAA games everywhere on the planet, it has diddly-squat to do with NI.

    If the GAA represents the whole of Ireland, then it has everything to do with NI. As I said, the GAA is not exclusive to the South.

    Are you replulsed by the idea that AnB is played in NI at all?

    I’m not “repulsed”, no. But I think it should only be played in appropriate settings on appropriate occasions.

    AnB is all Ireland.

    It’s not: it’s the anthem of Southern Ireland.

    It has big appeal in both Jurisdictions.

    Not amongst unionists in NI. Quite the opposite.

    Sometimes when you ask yourself the question ‘is it just me?’, you have to be prepared for the possibility that the answer is yes.

    Are you claiming that significant numbers of unionists attend GAA events in other countries? Have you any evidence?

    “Unionists are excluded: it’s a nationalist organisation.”
    Correct.

    So you agree with me.

    However, Gaelic games in themselves cannot be described as ‘nationalist’, the idea is ludicrous.

    Which makes it such a pity that they are governed by a nationalist organisation.

    Hence, why don’t a few of these ‘unionists’ who are desperate to play/watch the games but can’t at the minute in case they catch a bad dose of nationalism at a game set up their own teams, own governing body and simply ignore the GAA?

    I’m unaware of any unionists desperate to play or watch the games. That’s the whole point. And the reason such people don’t exist is because they have been excluded from them. The world of Gaelic sports is a closed one.

    The playing of AnB is no more a political act in Casement park than it is in London, Riyadh or Sydney.

    Well, it is a political act in London, Riyadh and Sydney, since the GAA is using the Southern anthem as though it were the anthem of all Ireland.

    Er, because they are invited to join and participate.

    By whom? In what way? Refusing to recognise NI and being overtly nationalist is not much of an invitation!

    Why must there be mutual exclusion?

    Precisely. I’m arguing for inclusion.

  • RG Cuan

    Pedantic quantity over quality.

    Thig leat sin a rá arís/You can say that again.

  • pacman

    I know the feeling Prince Eoghan – I have done this to death on IFA v FAI threads and have come to the conclusion that listening to an incessantly dripping tap would be far more interesting. At least the tap can be switched off.

  • willowfield

    KENSEI

    Yes. However, this organisation only holds by slim majority, and a huge minority don’t like it. They respect democracy as the only instrument for change, and the need fort he rule of law, but that’s it. No love for the state itself.

    Wonderful. That doesn’t alter the anthem, though – you’ll need a majority yourself (even just a slim one) for that.

    It does not follow that legal status automatically means that an anthem therefore deserves loyalty and should be respected. It does not mean they should be standing for it as “their” anthem to make you feel better.

    No-one’s interested in “loyalty”, but respect is a reasonable expectation. Common courtesy and good manners would lead one to tolerate the anthem as the logical outworking of the status of the state which has been acknowledged and recognised. In the event of a “united Ireland”, I would respect the resulting anthem.

    Not given the make up of our society. Assuming there was a neutral anthem, then yes in certain situations, though I doubt either side would really give two figs about it.

    A “neutral” NI-only anthem would be appropriate, too. But that does not make GSTQ inappropriate.

    But not at GAA matches. They play the anthem of the Irish Republic regardless of where in the world an intercounty match is played. There is absolutely no reason that the Six Counties should be treated any differently.

    I don’t think NI should be treated any differently. There should be an all-Ireland anthem played everywhere in the world.

    I tolerate the state’s out workings and the need for the democratic process.

    Except you don’t tolerate the anthem. Why pick on the anthem while tolerating the other outworkings?

    I see no reason why the North should be treated any differently from the rest of the island simply because the Government changes.

    I’m not arguing for it to be treated differently. Either play the national anthem of the particular jurisdiction (applying in BOTH jurisdictions and, indeed, throughout the world) OR play an all-Ireland anthem (applying everywhere) OR play no anthems (applying everywhere).

    But in any case, the policy is the same regardless: anywhere in the world an inter-county game is played, the flag and anthem of the Irish Republic should be played. Why should NI be different?

    It shouldn’t be different. I’m not arguing that!

  • slippy joe

    Im off home, willowfield, i nailed you with my last point, take a break, have a kit kat

  • iain

    Slippy,
    not on a Sunday!

    The Dubliner.
    Are you a lawyer? I didn’t understand enough to know if i agree or disagree. easier to just state at the beginning if you a noble gael (or one of the other lot) so that i don’t have to think before agreeing (disagreeing)

    Willow,
    hard luck mate, they’re all agin you!! still, i actually agree with you that the GAA should consider not playing A na b, for a range of reasons including not obliging the culture minister to have to wait in the car park for 10mins (probably having a crafty fag) while and musical formalities are taken care of.

  • good grief

    They wouldn’t be excluded if they adopted the sensible attitude of recognising that NI is part of the UK – Willowfield (a few pages ago!!)

    This wouldn’t be sensible, it would be in fact non-sensical for an organisation (the GAA) which overtly aspires to the creation 32 county ireland. I fail to see the problem with understanding and recognising that aspiration. Whether one shares this aspiration or not is irrelevant. Afford the GAA and it’s supporters to the space to express themselves as they wish…especially on their own property ! Doing so would indicate a degree of political maturity within Unionism.

    No amount of semantics and re-hashing of the same old arguments around political geography will change the reality that a percentage of the population country you live in do not recognise it’s exist. The majority of those people currently do however pay taxes and follow the laws of this land. In my view they should be afforded the right to sing whichever national anthem they wish, speak whatever language they wish and hold whichever passport/citizenship they wish as they are legally allowed by the countries involved.

  • willowfield

    The Dubliner

    This is the core issue: self-determination. Irish nationalism is the default value of the Irish nation state.

    But the “Irish nation state” does not equate with Ireland: that is the point.

    It is the reason why the nation state exists, not just Ireland for the Irish, but England for the English, France for the French, etc. Ergo, Spanish nationalism has a monopoly on ‘Spanishness’ that is not subject to the discretion of a minority of Spain’s citizens who identify themselves as Portuguese.

    Except in each of England, France and Spain there is only one English, French and Spanish people. In Ireland, there are two: one which claims a monopoly on Irishness and seeks to separate it from Britishness; and the other which proclaims Britishness as well.

    Article 1 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights states: “All peoples have the right of self-determination.

    Indeed: and note the first word: “all”. So Irish unionists have the right, too. Not just Irish nationalists.

    In short, those who identify themselves as a “peoples” have a claim to self-determination that can only be realised by the expedient of a nation state wherein they “freely pursue” their own destiny.

    And Ulster unionists/Irish unionists/Protestants/whatever identify themselves as a people just as Irish nationalists/Catholics do.

    The UN’s Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples and the International Court of Justice makes it clear that self-determination is the absolute right of peoples of colonized territories, defining “peoples” as the population, or people, of a fixed territorial entity.

    Yeah, but as I told you before, your problem with quoting that declaration is that it doesn’t apply to Northern Ireland. It only applies to “colonial counties and peoples”. I think we also established that Martínez Cobo’s definition related to the International Work Group for Indigenous Affairs and is not relevant to Ireland.

    As it stands, the demands of those who identify themselves as British in the north for a second nation state suppresses the right of those who identify themselves as Irish to self-determination

    Yet your solution would simply be to reverse the situation, only resulting in more people being “suppressed” than is currently the case!

    If you claim to be British, then you will find that your nation state already exists

    And I already live in it.

    SLIPPY JOE

    It isn’t the GAAs prerogative to exclude unionists, its the GAAs prerogative to promote Gealic Games and Irish culture on a 32 county basis.

    But in the way they choose to do the latter they also do the former. They should do the latter in an inclusive, not an exclusive way.

    That unionists prefer to pledge allegiance to Britain is not the GAAs problem.

    It is if the GAA wants to be inclusive. As I said, if it is happy to be exclusive, that is its choice and – yes – unionists “pledging allegiance” (as you quaintly put it) to the UK is not their proble.

  • cladycowboy

    WILLOWFIELD

    Have to go now to play soccer in Batterea park. It’s lovely, always have a wry smile when i recall the fact that more was spent on it’s beautification than on famine relief during our famine.

    Don’t think we’ve much to continue with. It seems your logic is leading to similar conclusions along thelines that the British Red Cross should drop it’s cross as it excludes the millions of Muslims, Hindus etc in Britain. Very strange this new world, AnB welcome everywhere except for Ulster and a politically correct unionist.

  • kensei

    “Wonderful. That doesn’t alter the anthem, though – you’ll need a majority yourself (even just a slim one) for that.”

    Does alter it isn’t my anthem, and I’m not British.

    “No-one’s interested in “loyalty”, but respect is a reasonable expectation. Common courtesy and good manners would lead one to tolerate the anthem as the logical outworking of the status of the state which has been acknowledged and recognised. In the event of a “united Ireland”, I would respect the resulting anthem.”

    I am afraid you are interested in loyalty. I am republican in the widest sense and have no interest in the anthem. Change it to lop of their heads and I’ll consider it.

    As for the position in a UI, that is entirely up to you. if you consider yourself British in the new state I wouldn’t demand it, and don’t believe the state should.

    “A “neutral” NI-only anthem would be appropriate, too. But that does not make GSTQ inappropriate.”

    the existence of it doesn’t make GSTQ inappropriate. the fact that GSTQ is a British anthem makes it inappropriate.

    “I don’t think NI should be treated any differently. There should be an all-Ireland anthem played everywhere in the world.”

    Why?

    “Except you don’t tolerate the anthem. Why pick on the anthem while tolerating the other outworkings?”

    I don’t pick on the anthem. I ignore to the best of my ability, the flag, the sporting teams and the institutions. My policy is the minimum respect required for those things.

    “I’m not arguing for it to be treated differently. Either play the national anthem of the particular jurisdiction (applying in BOTH jurisdictions and, indeed, throughout the world) OR play an all-Ireland anthem (applying everywhere) OR play no anthems (applying everywhere).”

    Why? It’s an Irish Nationalist organisation, it reflects Irish Nationalism. The only requirement the anthem should reflect the state it’s in is in your head. The anthem reflects the political aspirations of the body, which are constant everywhere in the world.

    PE

    “A contributor on another blog who had been engaged with the Willow for yonks, in a moment of frustration remarked that he would rather chew his fingers off than engage with him again. The nickname technovampire soon followed. Anyone with the patience to follow with the above might understand how the guy felt. Pedantic quantity over quality.”

    As a fellow victim I laughed my balls off that.
    Arguing with a complete brick wall occasionally is good for sharpening your arguments though.

  • willowfield

    GOOD GRIEF

    This wouldn’t be sensible, it would be in fact non-sensical for an organisation (the GAA) which overtly aspires to the creation 32 county ireland.

    1. There’s no need for them to have such an aspiration and if they want to include unionists they should ditch the aspiration.

    2. If they wish to create a “32 county Ireland” they won’t get very far if they don’t recognise that NI is part of the UK! How can they change something they don’t recognise?

    I fail to see the problem with understanding and recognising that aspiration.

    I do both understand and recognise it. I think, however, that it should end. Unless the GAA is content to be a nationalist-only organisation. It appears that it is.

    Whether one shares this aspiration or not is irrelevant. Afford the GAA and it’s [sic] supporters to the space to express themselves as they wish…especially on their own property ! Doing so would indicate a degree of political maturity within Unionism.

    They can do what they like (within reason). But if they want to be inclusive they need to ditch the political baggage. It seems they don’t want to be inclusive.

    No amount of semantics and re-hashing of the same old arguments around political geography will change the reality that a percentage of the population country you live in do not recognise it’s [sic] exist.

    Funny how so many voted for the GFA, then, and subsequently for parties that support the GFA and recognise NI’s existence.

    The majority of those people currently do however pay taxes and follow the laws of this land. In my view they should be afforded the right to sing whichever national anthem they wish, speak whatever language they wish and hold whichever passport/citizenship they wish as they are legally allowed by the countries involved.

    They already have those rights! And regardless of those rights, it still remains the case that if the GAA wants to be inclusive it needs to ditch its political baggage.

  • willowfield

    Kensei

    Does alter it isn’t my anthem, and I’m not British.

    That’s great, but it’s no reason not to tolerate it.

    I am afraid you are interested in loyalty.

    I’m not. All I’m suggesting is that it is a reasonable expectation for people to tolerate the anthem of the state.

    the existence of it doesn’t make GSTQ inappropriate. the fact that GSTQ is a British anthem makes it inappropriate.

    Why? There are hundreds of thousands of British people in Ireland, and specifically NI.

    But – in any case – as I have said ad nauseum, there are many options for inclusion that don’t involve GSTQ. You seem to ignore these other options – does this mean you are happy with them?

    Why?

    Because the GAA is supposedly an all-Ireland organisation: it doesn’t just represent the South.

    I don’t pick on the anthem. I ignore to the best of my ability, the flag, the sporting teams and the institutions. My policy is the minimum respect required for those things.

    Congratulations. Your choice.

    Why? It’s an Irish Nationalist organisation, it reflects Irish Nationalism.

    I’m arguing that it should cease to be a nationalist organisation!

  • iain

    Willowfield

    ‘i’m arguing that it should cease to be a nationalist organisation!’

    agree with you on that one

    Also, the GAA is an all-ireland organisation (its played in every county in Ireland). The Irish nation is spread over every county of Ireland, (though maybe not every Irish person is part of that nation). Afterall, Mary McAleese was born and bred in West Belfast i believe. Now if it was just up to the GAA branches in the Republic i think it might be possible to get a motion passed to drop ‘A na b’ at games. But i can’t see the branches in Northern Ireland agreeing to that (at the moment) as the GAA was the part of Irishness that they could have during times when it was difficult to express their Irish identity. That emotional attachment is powerful. so the GAA has a choice between what it should do and what it has to do. i can’t see any change in the immediate future. In time, as more people from a loyalist/unionist background start playing (i think this will happen as the violence of previous decades recedes), then changes in the GAA will probably occur, but from the inside. Edwin Poots being upset isn’t gong to change anything. lets be honest, it might even prevent change.

  • The Raven

    Someone further up the argument said: “Why don’t you go to a game and see how you get on?”

    As a Protestant lapsed attender of GAA matches, I second that.

    But just as a general thing, work with me on this imaginary scenario. It’ll be hard for some of you, but have a go anyway.

    Let’s imagine a game played between a team from, say, Dungiven, and a team from Kerry. I have no idea what the outcome would be, but let’s just imagine it happening.

    Then with a fair pinch of imaginative salt, let’s put it on in the middle of Bangor. Let’s imagine the GAA did a whole flurry of marketing to get the local Protestant population to come and see it. A “try it and see” game, if you will.

    The players come out onto the field and line up. There is an appreciative round of applause laced with an air of curiosity.

    And no music whatsoever is played. Indeed, there is a look of incredulity on the faces of some of the players, as there is also…no flag.

    My question is this: will the game be any more good or bad for the lack of an anthem….?

    By the way, someone further up the page had the temerity to write this drivel:

    “Does you yourself really believe that if the GAA dumped the tricolor and Amhrán na bhFiann et. all. that unionists would take an interest in GAA, I personally doubt it.”

    Don’t dare taint us all with the same brush. And don’t come out with rubbish like that, until it has actually been tried and tested over a period of time.

    This is one of those moments where it makes me ill to see people using phrases like “shared space” and “shared future”. Obviously the mere notion of it to some, is anathema.

  • The Dubliner

    “But the “Irish nation state” does not equate with Ireland: that is the point.”

    The “peoples” define the territory under article 1 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and under the UN’s Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples.

    “Except in each of England, France and Spain there is only one English, French and Spanish people. In Ireland, there are two: one which claims a monopoly on Irishness and seeks to separate it from Britishness; and the other which proclaims Britishness as well.”

    Pardon? There are no Irish, Indians, Africans, Chinese, etc, in England? The problem is, Willow, that your claim to self-determination is not predicated on being Irish (an indigenous “peoples” who have a prior claim to the territory); it is predicated on being British (the colonising nation). Your claim to self-determination is already granted: an entity called Great Britain exists. So your actual claim is for a second nation state – a home away from home, so to speak. All of the “peoples” within England, Irish, Indians, Africans, Chinese, etc, also have claims to self-determination that exist outside of the territory of England. That is why, unlike our confused unionist tribe, they do not make claims for self-determination within the territory of their host nation.

    “Indeed: and note the first word: “all”. So Irish unionists have the right, too. Not just Irish nationalists.”

    All means “peoples” who are indigenous to a particular territory wherever those peoples and territory is located, not all people within a particular territory. To grant every person or group within a territory a separate right to self-determination isn’t technically feasible, dear Willow, due to competing claims serving to cancel each other out: one claim, one sovereign nation state. Ergo, “Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing in those territories, or parts of them.”

    “And Ulster unionists/Irish unionists/Protestants/whatever identify themselves as a people just as Irish nationalists/Catholics do.”

    Which people, Willow? If you’re Irish or British, you already have a nation state. Are you some distinct ethnic group that is other? Please make your case as to what you are and why your claim entitles you to usurp the prior claim of the indigenous group to the territory.

    “Yeah, but as I told you before, your problem with quoting that declaration is that it doesn’t apply to Northern Ireland. It only applies to “colonial counties and peoples”. I think we also established that Martínez Cobo’s definition related to the International Work Group for Indigenous Affairs and is not relevant to Ireland.”

    You are incorrect in one sense and correct in another. It nullifies the right of NI to exist, granting the right to self-determination to the indigenous people. Which, of course, is why nationalists claimed that NI is not legitimate. The past tense is not irrelevant, since northern nationalists changed their minds about that, conceding that their claim to self-determination wasn’t to be considered a right as the Easter Proclamation and as Article 1 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights defined it, but should now be considered to be a discretionary privilege of those who originally denied them the right to self-determination, i.e. the British/Unionists. I’m not sure what the legal status is of those who give up their right to self-determination, but I suspect that they are entitled to do that since it is a collective right (“peoples”) and not an individual right so it is unlikely to be challenged by an individual who objects to the majority voiding his or her right to “freely pursue” his own her own destiny within a nation state.

    “Yet your solution would simply be to reverse the situation, only resulting in more people being “suppressed” than is currently the case!”

    My solution is to retain self-determination for the Republic of Ireland. I completely reject the redefining of self-determination as “the non-indigenous minority have a right to veto the self-determination of the indigenous majority, censoring all aspects of its cultural and political expression that is contrary to their political and cultural views.”

    Oh, and Willow, ignore the mockery from others: you’re a first-rate debater. 😉

  • RepublicanStones

    willow i remember another thread where you said change wasn’t preferable, maintenance of the status quo was however, so its as you were for the GAA. im irish, Anb is my anthem, the tricolour my flag, and that fact combined with the reality that irish nationalism has a level of worldwide support unionism can only dream of, warms me cockles, warms them real good. i think i’ll have a smile :)….ear to ear baby !

  • Irish In Sydney

    ‘combined with the reality that irish nationalism has a level of worldwide support unionism can only dream of, warms me cockles, warms them real good. i think i’ll have a smile :)….ear to ear baby !’

    What is it about certain members of the nationalist community that they are so insecure, so needy that they are so desperate for acceptance from the outside world.

    Your particular brand of Irish nationalism, as evidenced on youtube, with its miserable obsession with violence, murder, sectarianism and the pathetic glorification of the big boys with the big guns has, thankfully, a level of worldwide abhorrence and is despised by the vast, vast majority of people in the 26 counties that you wish to unite with yet continually reject your particular brand of republicanism.

    Now that really does warm the cockles of this Irishman.

  • Lenny

    Raven said

    “Let’s imagine a game played between a team from, say, Dungiven, and a team from Kerry. I have no idea what the outcome would be, but let’s just imagine it happening.
    Then with a fair pinch of imaginative salt, let’s put it on in the middle of Bangor. Let’s imagine the GAA did a whole flurry of marketing to get the local Protestant population to come and see it. A “try it and see” game, if you will.
    The players come out onto the field and line up. There is an appreciative round of applause laced with an air of curiosity.
    And no music whatsoever is played. Indeed, there is a look of incredulity on the faces of some of the players, as there is also…no flag.
    My question is this: will the game be any more good or bad for the lack of an anthem….? “

    That scenario you paint sounds wonderful. As a member of the GAA and a nationalist, I naturally have no problem with AnaB being played before matches in any part of Ireland. Willowfields intolerance towards the Irish flag and anthem would reinforce and entrench my views. However, coming from a protestant, your post was like a breath of fresh air and in the circumstance you imagine, I certainly would be prepared to reconsider.

  • RepublicanStones

    who is needy, who is insecure….not i dear boy, not i. irish nationalism welcomes support from all corners of the world, but it does not desperately seek it, as it has no need to. Independence and self-determination are ideals treasured by most sane people. Irish in

    Sydney……how long have you been going out with Sydney

    ear to ear !

  • kensei

    “I’m not. All I’m suggesting is that it is a reasonable expectation for people to tolerate the anthem of the state.”

    Why? I don’t think it should exist, and was based on illegitimate foundations. The actual anthem celebrates an idea which is repulsive to me.

    “Why? There are hundreds of thousands of British people in Ireland, and specifically NI.”

    And? There are now a lot of Poles. Should we play the Polish anthem?

    “But – in any case – as I have said ad nauseum, there are many options for inclusion that don’t involve GSTQ. You seem to ignore these other options – does this mean you are happy with them?”

    I think I put my position out clearly earlier.

    “Because the GAA is supposedly an all-Ireland organisation: it doesn’t just represent the South.”

    It represents the Irish Nation. The “All-Ireland” extends to include immigrant communities in London and New York.

    “I’m arguing that it should cease to be a nationalist organisation!”

    With no compelling reason, just Unionism doesn’t like the existence of a Nationalist organisation.

  • FraserValley

    Why are anthems needed at sporting events at all. Why not just dump the practice at all sporting and social events?

  • Irish In Sydney

    Republican Stones
    ‘ear to ear’

    Presumably you are referring to the world-renowned Irish republican method of dealing with fellow irishmen who fail to toe the party-line…

  • flaminglip

    “Irish In Sydney”

    Haha, where did you come from! Well, supposedly “Sydney”.

  • RepublicanStones

    Presumably you are referring to the world-renowned Irish republican method of dealing with fellow irishmen who fail to toe the party-line… -irish in sydney

    ????? i have no idea what your whittering on about, you obviously never read the entire post you chose to criticise me about in the first place. i suggest you do, and refrain from making a fool out of yourself !

  • Dewi

    “In my view they should be afforded the right …to speak whatever language they wish…”
    “They already have those rights!”

    Except in Court of course.

  • Occasional Observer

    I see the voice of reasonable argument up the page a bit is resoundingly ignored 😉

  • Irish In Sydney

    flaminglip

    I didn’t come from Sydney, that’s just where I am right now.

    Republican Stones
    I read your post alright, and I’ve seen your videos. When a fan-boy such as yerself, with their masturbatory adulation of the PIRA, uses phrases such as ‘ear to ear baby’, one never knows whether you are referring to the length of your smile or the length of the incision your poster-boys have made on the throats of various Irishmen through the years.

    Its laughable for you to talk about the ideals of Irish nationalism when your YouTube homepage with its frankly embarassing collection of home-videos and comments from a motley assortment of whackos, extremists, plastic paddies and loyalists besmirches these very ideals.

  • RepublicanStones

    irish in Sydney, you seem to not have seen my vids, ithey are a mix of comedy and factual, and yes 2 out of 10 of them contain images of the IRA. and i engage and debate with all sorts on youtube, just because i don’t like or agree with someone does not mean i will blank him, which is what you seem to suggest is the thing to do. and for your immature attempt to try and put a dubious inference on my term for a big smile is quite frankly ‘masturbatory’. tell me what ideals im ‘besmirching’ by talking to loyalists????

    away and drown yourself in vicotria bitter you little child !

    P.S thanks for no doubt increasing the hits on my page 😉

  • lib2016

    RepublicanStones,

    You’re not going to get off that aisy – we demand a link!

  • Dewi
  • lib2016

    RepublicanStones

    Strong stuff and rather too ready to glorify violence for my taste. Against that you are prepared to engage and debate with the people you regard as your enemy so there is hope.

    I’m beginning to think that yet another cultural difference is emerging on these boards.

    It’s my impression and I may well be wrong that there is a readiness to come to grips with the harsh reality of what the Troubles were about among certain republicans where unionists still see the security forces through rose tinted glasses.

    At least some physical force republicans already regret the damage done during the fighting.

    Unionists still seem to feel that the mere fact that so many of the forces on their side were uniformed regulars in some way excuses the excesses those forces were guilty off.

  • Irish In Sydney

    ‘they are a mix of comedy and factual, and yes 2 out of 10 of them contain images of the IRA’

    2 too many. As for the comedy – calling Prods colonists and refering to their smell, wow what satire. I’m surprised Leno and Letterman haven’t beaten a path to your door to write their scripts while the strike is on. Calling it comedy is a pathetic cop-out – at least have the balls to admit your hatred/bigotry for what it is.

    Its funny that yesterday ‘RepublicanStones up the Shankill’ with its ‘I Smell The Colonists’ as the opening credits was freely available to view on youtube and now today when you try the webpage it comes back with ‘This is a private video. If you have been sent this video, please make sure you accept the sender’s friend request.’ – instead only the sequel is available and no mention of Colonisers or their smell. Why did you take it down Republican Stones?

  • RepublicanStones

    irish in sydney….view away, as i said i welcome all the hits. all my vids are there to see. the only vids i ever took down are those containing myself or my voice as many loyalists have attempted to reuse these videos….i get the feeling its more a case of ulster-scot in sydney !

  • lib2016

    “ulster-scot in sydney”

    Oh my God, let’s not bring back transportation – what harm has the soon-to-be republic of Australia ever done us?

  • abucs

    Despite what is said sometimes, the GAA is an Irish ‘Republican’ body IMHO. (Irish Republican in that its ethos favours an island wide Irish Republic – any other country and that would sound like a tautology).

    I have no qualms with it staying that way.

    Equally, i have no qualms with non Irish ‘Republicans’ who want to be involved with the group seeking to change its trappings. They make fair and reasonable points from their perspective.

    I would however be against civil law forcing the body to change its trappings.

    I think perhaps because Mr Poots has made these statements, given his position, he has attracted opposition from people who wish to dissuade any thoughts he might personally have about changing things.

  • pfhl

    Antrim might stop being keek if we could attract Prods, though 😛

    Posted by kensei on Jan 18, 2008 @ 11:17 AM

    lol, if only!

  • MisterMuncher

    Let’s make this simple, shall we?

    At any GAA game, the choice of Anthem or Anthems should be made by the respective boards of the teams playing. Consideration should be given to simply using County Anthems in most cases. It’s worth noting, at this juncture, that the prevalance of anthems, tricolours etc at GAA games is being vastly overstated, and tneither would make an appearance at a good 90% of games.

    That way, the Anthem would be a democratic representation of each teams support and makeup, certainly much better than the broad brush “GSTQ up here, A na bhF down there” approach, no?

    I can’t see why anyone would object to that, now…