“should make every thinking person in Northern Ireland reflect..”

When Mick mentioned some University of Ulster figures on the migration of the Protestant population of Londonderry away from the west bank of the Foyle – a decline of 83.4% between 1971 and 1991 – it generated a heated, as in more heat than light, discussion of the reasons why.. although, some time later, Mick also noted the renewed optimism of some churches. So the report in the Belfast Telegraph of an Open Reel Productions documentary – the company responsible for producing Battle of the Bogside and No Go: The Free Derry Story – exploring that migration and the reasons behind it, should be interesting and, hopefully, informative for many. The report states that the documentary, entitled Exodus and due to be screened on 9th January, “will show that less than 500 Protestants now remain on the west bank of Derry, less than 3% of the 18,000 housed there in 1969.” The editorial in the paper also makes an important point about this segregated society.

Of course, population movements in Northern Ireland have not just been one way, as proven by the mono-religious housing estates dotted across the province. Both communities have suffered from violence and intolerance. Both also at times harbour exaggerated perceptions of threat that can – and do – influence social patterns. However, the latest figures from Derry should make every thinking person in Northern Ireland reflect on the nature of the society we are building.

Or, some might say, the nature of the society that has been built..

, , , , , , ,

  • Dewi

    German study – a bit geekish and not a smooth ride but East German disposable income rose from 63% of Western disposable income to 82% from 1991 to 2003 (Table 2)

  • PaddyReilly

    Well Dewi, the reunification of Germany was actually a bit of a disaster, but strangely enough people voted for it. What impressed me when I was in East Germany last month was the degree to which the two entities, or at least the inhabitents thereof, remained separate. Germany is after all a Bundesrepublik, a Federal Republic, so local variations can be catered for. As things stand, houses seem to be twice as expensive in the West as they are in the East, so, to a large extent, the boder remains. The reunification of the national Fussballmannschaft was, however, a great success, and Germany became Weltmeister within a couple of years. Though of course, if you were one of the players that was left out, you would not say this.

    Instead of talking about unification, we should be talking about a unification process. This has already started and is well under way. The most important milestone was when laws preventing people from the 26 counties working in the north were removed. Both countries joining the EU was another important step. Even today, tiny steps, such as giving streets Irish language names, may be regarded as part of the unification process. I should also point out that 6 and 26 counties both function in the English Common Law area, and both have shared peculiarities with regards to Land Law.

    Consequently, Ireland has quite a short way to go, compared with Germany, to move towards unity. Important steps to be tackled are:-

    1) creation of a shared immigration area
    2) accession of NI to Euro area
    3) unification of Health Services.

    The Council of Ireland, which I seem to recall was part of the GFA, is also something that should be worked on.

  • PaddyReilly
    The euro is something that i thought that the Uk govt would us Ni as a test zone.
    The only aprt of the Uk that shares a ladn border with the Euro zone etc.
    However Gb was dead against the Euro since day one.
    If he loses the election to the Tories then Cameron is also agin the Euro.
    If GB wins the election then,of course, he stays.
    Either way it is no go for the Euro.
    Living in Donegal and shopping in Derry the two currencies are a pain!
    Nothing to do with nationalism-just consumer convenience:0)

  • jaffa

    And they rip you off with a 1:1 exchange rate on the M1 toll!

    The new toll at the end of the port tunnel’s better though.

  • Dewi

    “Well Dewi, the reunification of Germany was actually a bit of a disaster”
    Perceptions a killer Paddy – I reckon it’s been as much of a success as it could have been (and is ongoing).

    On house prices London prices (and indeed over there LOL) probably double to treble equivalent where I’m from.

    In E Germany capital per worker as &#xof; W German figure moved from 47% in 1991 to 84% in 2002. Astonishing sucess.

    Agree with Euro 100% – real pain for tourists in Ireland.

    Now as for North and South Korea……..

  • PaddyReilly

    Dewi, the study you quote mentions the decline in the birth rate as a result of reunification. East Germans couldn’t afford to have children any more. The disaster was caused by granting parity to the East and West German mark. Over the least 19 years things have been getting better, but the initial reunification could have been done a lot better.

  • jaffa

    Paddy,

    I think we know the right exchange rate for the euro and the pound so hopefully we’ll avoid that error.

    Any other insurmountable hurdles?

  • Ronald Binge

    According to this thread [url]http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=29937&start=96&sid=7eb3942452b966fc43a558d64b57407c[/url] on politics.ie any enforced migration and indeed any distinct unionist culture doesn’t exist, so it’s in everyones imaginations.

  • PaddyReilly

    Any other insurmountable hurdles?

    Well I would not be the best person to ask, being on the Reunificationist side myself. Get Dubliner to give you a jeremiad. No hurdles are insurmountable, it’s just that you may injure yourself when trying to clear them. My impression of German Reunification is that it was a bit of a casino, with many people (largely Western) ending up significantly richer and many others (largely Eastern) being very much reduced in circumstances.

    On this analogy one would expect a lot of Southern suppliers to end up much better off, and a lot of Northern ones to be bankrupted. Indeed, unless special measures are undertaken, one could see much of Northern job creation moving to the Dublin area, with the North Eastern corner ending up as the Irish Sunderland.

    My solution would be to demand that Armagh be made the capital: Ard Mhacha, Ceann Éireann, as the ancients said. That should be enough to keep a little of the economic activity in Ulster.

  • jaffa

    Paddy,

    Quite right. Sorry. Mistook you for another. Quite like the “jeremaid” word though.

    “My solution would be to demand that Armagh be made the capital: Ard Mhacha, Ceann Éireann, as the ancients said. That should be enough to keep a little of the economic activity in Ulster.”

    No need to move the parliament. Just keep the civil service in Belfast.

    How about nibbling your way through. Start with the North West, Newry-Mourne and Femanagh-Tyrone. We’ll keep North Down and South Belfast until you’re over your indigestion.

    Tell you what, take those scruffy bits for now and outsource some civil servicing to us in the planters’ rump. That’ll even things up a bit and you can cancel the contract if we don’t jump when the time comes.

  • Dewi

    “Dewi, the study you quote mentions the decline in the birth rate as a result of reunification. East Germans couldn’t afford to have children any more. The disaster was caused by granting parity to the East and West German mark”

    Sorry to keep and don’t disagree with your conclusion however:

    1) Parity of Mark was to make the Osties better off initially.
    2)Couldn’t really avoid the closure of a pile of Eastern industry.
    3) Lower birthraye could be explained by mass population movement of younger people westward.

    What’s that brilliant film something Lenin about post reunified East Germanuy called ? Highly recommended.

  • Dewi

    Sorry about spelling. Too many errors to correct.

  • Ahem

    Heartfelt congrats to all the nationalist spacers and spoofers who have deluged this thread. Superb job, well done boys. You’ve managed to talk about everything except the topic of the thread. Almost as impressive a performance, from your point of view, as Martin murdering all them Orange bastards out of Derry. As he has done. As the thread’s about. As you just cannot bring yourselves to talk about. Dear oh dear oh dear.

  • Ahem

    Or to put that another way, “welcome to Slugger: where Norn Iron’s unthinking come not to reflect, any-f*cking-thing but”.

    Seriously, in the long annals of self-delusion on Slugger, the performance of nationalist posters on this thread has been almost heroically pathetic.

  • Ahem

    I mean, ffs, imagine if the situation at hand was the opposite way round! That some well known loyalist gunman – let alone Paisley – had successfully driven the catholics, at the exact same rate, out of somewhere. Jes*s, the nationalist whining filling Slugger could only be heard by dogs with high powered listening equipment, it would be so constant and high pitched.

    And so there we are: by posting three comments on-topic, I’ve single handedly stuck more up than the entire on-topic contribution thus far from Slugger’s nationalist posters. Incredible: fantastic: pitiful: absurd. Do you have to be shameless to be a nationalist poster on Slugger, or does it just help?

  • Turgon

    lib 2016,
    (To Turgon)”You put words in my mouth”

    That lib was in response to me asking about what use you had for our children. here is the quote from you lib
    “for what their children will contribute”.

    So the question stands.

  • kensei

    Ahem

    Have you actual evidence to back up that Derry is somehow unique in the Six Counties? It certainly isn’t the only place that has had large population movement. For example, this is Belfast:

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/2001religionwardsbelfast2.jpg

    Aside from the South, it is very segregated.

    Republicans certainly didn’t have a monopoly on violence during the troubles, at either paramilitary level or low level attacks.

    So have you actually got anything to show, or are you just going to continue ranting?

  • PaddyReilly

    As you just cannot bring yourselves to talk about.

    Indeed, the tactical removal of decent Ulster Protestants from the Cityside to the Waterside may appear to those same people to be the greatest crime against humanity ever, but it has to be pointed out that the 60s and 70s witnessed one of the greatest peace time movements of population of the last Century, and it wasn’t just one way. Another of our contributors, Briso, has pointed out that his family had to go from the Waterside to the Cityside. At least the relocation did not involve any great distance, though I suppose there is some resentment at the loss of immediate access to the Holy Places of the Maiden City.

    Consequently, some contributors have obviously got bored with this discussion on its second airing, and wandered off topic, treating it as if it were an open thread. You are free to ignore us: if you have anything new to say on the said topic I invite you to do so. But I suggest that you too are wandering off topic, into the usual rant of how bad the other side are.

  • Ahem

    Amazing, a thread about how the prods have been driven out of derry (as inconvertibly demonstrated in the stats contained at the top of the thread), and the best a nationalist poster like kensei can do is, er, attack me. Truly risible.

    Keep on keeping on not talking about the subject of this thread for as long as you like kensei. It’s always good to have the measure of the folk who lurk here.

    . . . a decline of 83.4% between 1971 and 1991 . . .

    Seriously son, blinkers off, brain on, off you go – talk about that. I’m going to have my dinner, and when I get back I expect to have cogent arguments from nationalist posters on the topic of the thread, otherwise it’s demerits all round.

  • Ahem

    Laughable effort Paddy (and not just for the crapulent whataboutery, nor even for the blatantly bad faith accusations of sectarianism) – or do you want to quote at length the inordinate number of posts from nationalists on this thread, discussing this thread’s topics? You’ll, on the invisible evidence thus far, be a long time looking for them.

  • kensei

    “Amazing, a thread about how the prods have been driven out of derry (as inconvertibly demonstrated in the stats contained at the top of the thread), and the best a nationalist poster like kensei can do is, er, attack me. Truly risible.”

    A complete Straw Man. Everyone accepts that this is a Bad Thing. Everyone accepts violence was certainly a factor. However, population movements creating have been by no means unique here.

    You might be happy to rant for 5 pages on how bad MMG and the boys are for causing all this, but some of us actually want to understand the factors that caused it and how it fits into the wider pattern.

    “Keep on keeping on not talking about the subject of this thread for as long as you like kensei. It’s always good to have the measure of the folk who lurk here.”

    ” . . . a decline of 83.4% between 1971 and 1991 . . .

    Seriously son, blinkers off, brain on, off you go – talk about that. I’m going to have my dinner, and when I get back I expect to have cogent arguments from nationalist posters on the topic of the thread, otherwise it’s demerits all round. ”

    The figures say nothing about causation. What percentage of the decline happened at Bloody Sunday or the Hunger Strikes? Is there anywhere else in the Six that can demonstrate similar figures? Was there an usually high level of violence, either murders or low level attacks int he area? To what extent do these movements become self reinforcing?

    All good questions, and until you have some attempt at answers to them perhaps best not to shout everyone else down.

    So again: whatcha got? Try not to go off again on one, son.

  • kensei

    Some relevant stats here:

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/segregat/temple/areaplan.htm

    The major drop on the Cityside seems to be between 1971 and 1981. There is a large number of “Other” for that year though I guess that’d be down to the Republican boycott because of the Hunger Strikes.
    Shame there is no interim figures.

  • andy

    Ahem
    I dont think the stats do prove they have been driven out – just that they moved?

    I asked this question earlier on (thanks Briso for the response) – why has there been no similar moves of catholics from areas like the waterside? Was there a much lower level of sectarian attacks on catholics than vice-versa?

  • kensei

    Oh, and some interviews with people living in the Fountain, circa 1995:

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/segregat/temple/hem1.htm

  • lib2016

    Every attempt to discuss the possibility of positive discrimination in order to manage the more outrageous inequalities in our society, even most attempts at measuring those inequalities leads to abuse from the unionist posters on this board and elsewhere.

    Now that we have definite proof that something destroyed the Waterside community can we at least agree on the need to find out what actually happened there and elsewhere.

    Why did the sustained murder campaign in N.Belfast and E. Antrim during the Nineties have the effects that it had, and why were those effects so counter intuitive?

    Why did the Waterside collapse so completely when one would have thought that it could have been relatively easily defended. Most impotantly perhaps, just how organised were the sectarian attackers.

    Was it the IRA and their large scale bombing campaign which did the damage or did a less organised breakdown of communication between the communities lead to the Watersiders feeling that they had no future?

    Turgon.

    Still haven’t heard the line about ‘the laughter of out children’?

  • Turgon

    lib 2016,
    I do not wish to play the man; (as you have done so frequently to me here) but do not worry I have a ready supply of quotes from your musings at my disposal every time you try to pretend you are not that which you are.

  • lib2016

    Turgon,

    I have honestly tried to make peace in every way I know how. No matter how much you detest me or my views is this really the best you can come up with?

    You do realise how sorry for you I feel? Please seek help.

  • PaddyReilly

    It is a general principle of revenge that it is more often visited on a proximate and easy target, than a remote and guilty one. For this reason remote Catholic churches in County Antrim with tiny, Alliance voting congregations are more subject to arson attacks than actual centres of guerilla activity on the Falls Road.

    Equally, Orange Halls in County Cavan with no history of mounting contentious marches and spotless records of good neighbourliness receive the negative feedback generated by sister lodges in Portadown or East Belfast.

    At the same time I, who have very little in common with George Bush and have never endorsed his foreign policy, make a point of never settling or lingering in downtown Mogadishu, Fallujah or Tikrit after his men have been active there.

    In the last thread on this topic we established that the Protestant inhabitants of Londonderry, acting on this very same sensible principle, evacuated en masse a few days after Bloody Sunday, beating a tactical retreat to an area where they felt safer. It is wisest not to put oneself in the position of a soft target for a revenge attack, however innocent one is of the act for which revenge is being taken.

    Nevertheless, a contributor called ‘Ahem’ has elected himself webmaster of this thread, which he informs us is about ‘Martin murdering all them Orange bastards out of Derry. As he has done. As the thread’s about.’

    I myself find that charges of murder are unlikely to stick when the victim turns out to be still alive, and indeed in perfect good health

  • Dewi

    “At the same time I, who have very little in common with George Bush and have never endorsed his foreign policy, make a point of never settling or lingering in downtown Mogadishu, Fallujah or Tikrit after his men have been active there”

    LOL LOL absolute LOL

    Seriously Ahem – apologies we did digress – I keep on thinking about Foyle college – wouldn’t a commitment to stay on the right side of the river be a message to the Unionist community ?

  • Dewi

    P.S. I can play the dirge like opening chords to the Cold House Video perfectly now.

  • Turgon

    lib 2016,
    “Please seek help.”

    I am heartily fed up with this psycho babble. Rest assured I have no mental illness. I do, however, have abiding contempt for your views and those of cheerleaders and apologists from both sides of the community. I am also fed up with your repeated insults to me, your playing the man and these ludicrous comments about mental illness. Unlike you I know quite a bit about mental illness and have a number of relatives who have had mental health problems. Whilst I care little about you describing me as mentally ill I wish you would not try to use suggestions of mental illness to try to slur analyses and questioning of your views which you find uncomfortable (you are very good at slurs).

    If you suggested that my comments were due to me having cancer people would be appalled at your insensitivity towards those with cancer.

    Now I unless you want to tell me where your medical degree is from and why your pyscho babble about me is correct can I suggest you stop slurring people with mental illnesses.

  • Turgon
    feel free to express your contempt for the views of all on here-but dont play the man.
    Some of your ideas are worth serious consideration imho-ad hominem attacks dont do them justice.
    Ps happy New Year

  • Dewi-on Foyle college oving:
    have they stated WHY they are movong?
    Is it an Aer lingus to Belfast job?
    A smart move devoid of poltics?
    There is now a substantial bank of land available at the barracks now available.
    Just a thought.

  • Turgon

    Phil Mac Giolla Bhain,
    I would regard these as playing the man and they did not come from me:

    “Don’t worry about it. Just keep listening to the voices and relaying what they tell you and we’ll all be OK.”

    “You do realise how sorry for you I feel? Please seek help.”

    Over on the other thread so far this year we have had:

    “Perhaps I should be more tolerant of those who cling grimly to their hate”

    “…a sign of recovery. Please talk to somebody, for your own sake.”

    Slurring the mentally ill or calling into question the sanity of those who disagree with you is hardly appropriate debate. It is not me who has done that.

  • Dewi

    My only point about Foyle college was why it did not seek to stay. Noboby has driven it out ?

  • Turgon

    Dewi,
    I can claim no specific knowledge of the position of Foyle’s position but I will relay what I have heard.

    I have heard that they are concerned about ongoing low level problems for the pupils.

    Also they have apparently lost a significant number of children to Limavady Grammar.

    Now clearly there is also the practical issue that if the majority of their potential pupils (accepting the significant Roman Catholic percentage) live almost exclusively on the City side; that may help explain the situation. It is of course a vicious circle. If most of the children leave the school moves, further accelerating the decline in the Protestant community. not that it has that far left to fall.

  • lib2016

    Turgon,

    You have been openly stalking me for some time. That’s all the evidence I need as to your state of mind but I do appreciate Slugger so I’ll voluntarily remove myself from this board before it turns into a complete circus.

    You may like to know that for some time I have been undergoing intensive treatment for cancer.

    For me this has been a fairly lighthearted diversion from the discomforts of real life. For you it has obviously struck a deeper chord. Please try not to take yourself or your feelings so seriously – sooner or later you will have to confront the fact that we are all just passing shadows and the world will go on perfectly well without us.

    This is not an attempt to lay some kind of guilt trip on you – during the Christmas closedown I started using some other boards which are less er- fraught with emotion. I prefer to stay out of fights just for the moment, nothing more, nothing less.

    Have a Happy New Year and thanks also to all the other people who have put up with my waffling over the last few years. It’s been a pleasure.

  • lib2016 best wishes to you.
    I wish you health 7 recovery in 2008

  • The Dubliner

    lib2016, I hope you reconsider. I agree with you that some folks take message boards far too seriously for the good of their own mental health, but they are, thankfully, the minority. You shouldn’t let anyone bully you into censoring your viewpoints, even though I can understand why you wouldn’t want the hassle of e-thugs waving e-clubs at you at this time in your life.

    Anyway, I hope you make a full recovery, and wish you well.

  • Battler

    Dewi,
    RE Foyle College – the problems relate to the school being split over 2 campuses on opposite sides of the Northland Road. The road has got an awful lot busier in the last decade or so and made life very difficult and a little dangerous for staff and students moving between the two. Added to this issue has been the catchment population of the school largely leaving the Cityside and the soaring value of the school’s land/cost of buying new land on the Cityside. IIRC they have looking to move for a few years now. The Headmaster and Governors have stressed repeatedly that sectarian politics have no bearing on the decision and have expressed a bit of frustration at both nationalist (‘you can’t leave, it makes us look bad’) and unionist (‘the ethnic cleansing goes on’) politicians looking to make capital out of whole process.
    Apologies for straying on topic there, doubtless normal service will soon be resumed…

  • Turgon

    Well this lands me in a dilemma does not it.

    lib you are well aware of my views regarding you and the reasons for them. You are the leading exponent on here of a particular republican narrative which I despise.

    You are also a human being.

    I do not seek your friendship, I do not seek a meeting of minds, I will not “engage” with you.

    However, even before your last comments I was getting a little fed up with the whole thing. On the topic of it having become a circus I would agree.

    You have my word that I will not answer anything you post unless it is directed at me personally.

    I hope and pray for your health.

  • Battler
    Thanks for the info-as I suspected the reasons behind the college move was more prosaic than political.

  • Dewi

    “I suspected the reasons behind the college move was more prosaic than political. ”

    Which is the absolute point about the population movement IMHO

  • Agreed Dewi-I know that from my own personal history.
    I moved my young family out of Glasgow for Donegal in the late 1990s.
    Yes Irish people have historically suffered discrimination in Scotland.
    It is still a fairly chilly house.
    however it was mainly a positive move.
    Donegal meant living in clean air,mortgage free.
    Could it also be the case-in the main-with the “exodus” of Londonderry’s defenders?

  • Turgon

    phil macgiollabhain,

    Air quality seems pretty acceptable in Londonderry with NO2 being the major problem as it is in all urban areas. Also of course average house prices are lower in the Londonderry / Strabane area.

    Even if by chance Protestants are leaving the city side because of pollution and house prices. These things only affect Protestants do they; how amazing?

    Of course alternatively you could be thrashing around trying to explain something in any manner at all other than admitting that there is a serious problem here.

  • Dewi

    Turgon –

    1) Average house price in Mid-Ulster £293k. There is something wrong in the fundamentals somewhere.

    2) Fair Deal I think posted a paper a few months back on how people of the same tribe / colur / religion were hapier living close to each other. Suspect that that is the biggest issue in Derry.

    3) My boring repeated point about the school was that if a stand is needed then that’s the kind of institution that needs to do it. Your points about why it’s moving are perfectly valid of course – but accepts the segregation process.

  • Turgon-I have not need to “thrash around” rather than accept that Londonderry’s defenders felt more comfortable about defending Derry’s walls from the Waterside after Bloody Sunday.
    It was probably easier to be a loyal defender of the Guildhall when the taigs knew their place.
    My minor point is that such broadbrushstrokes often miss the personal stroies of people who wnat to move for, well, personal reasons.
    Many people I know who would describe themselves as “Glasgow Irish” moved back to Donegal in the 1990s.
    Although they were leaving a place that discriminated against them it was mainly a positive move to be “back” in Donegal.

  • Dewi-given the origins of the Statelet (set up on a sectarian headcount, B-Specials etc) isnt it a no-brainer that people would move into areas where they felt safe?
    I am sure I read a study that there were now less mixed areas than there were at anytime since partition.
    It isnt what you expect in a normal society, but who said the Six Counties were normal?

    Not me officer;0)