Sinn Fein and the Quinn killing…

I was in Westminster, briefly, on Tuesday were there was some feverish speculation amongst lobby journalists about the Paul Quinn killing and including some interesting lines about who actually was there. It may all turn out to be just that, speculation. And for that reason, I’m not about to repeat any of it in the public domain. But, at the very least, there are some questions arising from Sinn Fein’s treatment of the family by getting its revenge in first and tarring the victim with the ‘criminality’ tag, without, it would seem, any proof being offered one way or the other.And there is a pattern in Sinn Fein’s behaviour towards grieving families who ask awkward questions that matches past events. Apart from any moral questions, it looks pretty bad from the outside. We can see the pattern most publicly in the aftermath of the Robert McCartney killing.

On that occasion Alex Maskey came out fairly rapidly and blamed ‘a knife culture’: a line that fitted a fairly vigorous news story in England at the time. As it turned out that, according a statement that eventually made by the IRA after a lengthy news investigation had uncovered a substantial Sinn Fein presence in the bar where the fracas began, three of those involved had serving IRA volunteers at the time.

In the immediate wake of Quinn murder, Gerry Adams referred to accounts emerging from the family and others that Republicans were involved as ‘tittle tattle’. He then suggested this was the result of a dispute between diesel smugglers. His source: a few phone calls to some people in the area.

Whatever Adams’ senior status as President of his party, it is not a statement that can be traded upon with any confidence.

As to the overall situation, there are several levels to this.

One relates to any future individual prosecutions. Apart from John Laird’s use of parliamentary privilege, I’ve not heard anyone mention individuals. Nor should there be, at least not without serious proof, or at the very least a police charge.

A second rests on the issue highlighted in a letter send out to local residents by the Quinn support group: i.e. public safety in the area.

And then there is the political aspect of this. At the time of the McCartney murder I consistently argued that the party’s coldness towards the interests of the dead man’s family was inimicable to the party’s longer term electoral interests. SF activists commenting on Slugger were fairly gung ho and saying that the Westminster elections would not be affected.

In the event the party took Mallon’s old seat that same year with relative ease. But they missed their other targets by an Irish mile. A good rally this March got them another net gain, but the election in the south was, by Chris’s own searingly honest account a complete disaster.

Incidents like this, and more importantly, the party’s vicious public reaction to it are messing with the party’s brand. The association is less with radical politics and increasingly with a callous disregard for the lives of anyone who disagrees with them.

In short it is in danger of becoming the ‘nasty party’, an image that the party’s behaviour, at various levels, in the face of public disasters like this does nothing to allay.

The thing that prevents any of this being serious politically damaging at the moment is that its nationalist opposition in Northern Ireland at the moment is a shambles. The senior parties in the Executive at the moment have a virtual autocracy that even President Chavez might have settled for. Sinn Fein and the DUP will seek to use their majority powers inside the Executive to dig in and settle down as the ‘natural parties of government’ for the long term.

But to make an analogy with ‘another place’, the Tories looked like they could walk on water with British Labour in 80s and 90s and seemed to have dumped the ‘nasty’ tag when they got rid of Thatcher, until Black Wednesday and Tony Blair, between them, finally buried them for a good ten years.

The lesson, I would suggest, is that brand corrosion happens over a long time, but it takes a decent opposition knock over any political project. So long as there is no effective opposition (and there is no sign of one) the party is safe enough in Northern Ireland. But they have already had a recent taste of brand failure in the Republic.

In the meantime, whoever is right or wrong, some of the party’s treatment of the Quinn family in the wake of their son’s killing has been downright nasty. In terms of its brand, this is fairly viscous stuff. And like tar, it sticks.

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  • URQUHART

    Chris Gaskin

    You’re busy tonight.

    But two things…

    1. You don’t speak for the people of South Armagh, so please stop claiming the mantle of Defender for that area

    2. You say: “The usual suspects that have been attacking us on every issue are again trying their best to attack us now.”

    I imagine there are quite a few SF members squirming to be associated with your banalities.

  • Mick

    When this first broke I knew that many would find it hard to accept Sinn Féin’s word that there was no IRA involvement.

    They would find it hard because of Garda McCabe , McCartney etc.

    I would argue that Sinn Féin have learnt from these incidents and that if the IRA was involved (and I don’t for a second believe they were) it would be a lot more damaging for them to deny it now only to have their involvement revealed at a later date.

    What is obvious from all the cases that you mention is that very early on after both died it became clear that there was Republican involvement.

    That has not happened in this case.

  • URQUHART

    Chris

    A better example might be Frank Kerr from your own neck of the woods. He was an innocent Catholic postal worker shot dead when Provos robbed the post office in Newry.

    Conor Murphy was very clear that the IRA were not involved. And then not officially sanctioned. And then… well ok, fair cop.

    If you genuinely believe the line you’re spinning here, I feel for you.

  • andy

    NY
    I am interested in how the IRA intimidate people in a secret ballot? any evidence from a credible source would be good too.

    Chris
    I appreciate that you say the family have offered to meet the family. That is a good sign but you may want to think:

    1) What do SF gain by castigating the Quinn support group? (or indeed heaping such vitriol on members of it to give that impression)

    2) What would they lose by interacting with it?

    I accept that there is no evidence beyond reasonable doubt to prove Provo involvement. However that is not the level of proof needed for the “public” (in which i include nationalist opinion north and south) to believe the Provos were involved.

    Mick makes a good comparison with the McCartney case – in that the post-hoc actions will cause more damage than the original incident.

    Also, I have yet to hear what SF believes actually happened if the provos did not kill Quinn. This isnt your fault particularly, but assuming the IRA were not responsible, they must at least know who was.

  • El Mat

    No threat, just an observation.

    New Yorker/Michael Lambe

    “The evidence stage has passed in the public discussion”

    Really? I don’t think so. There is never an evidence stage.

    You aren’t even from the area, Sinn Féin has a huge vote in this area and none of it is down to voter intimidation.

    “You don’t speak for the people of South Armagh, so please stop claiming the mantle of Defender for that area”

    I never claimed to represent the area, unlike you however I am actually from South Armagh. Conor Murphy does represent South Armagh though so what exactly is your point????

    “I imagine”

    The imagination of stoops has never really interested me

  • Turgon

    The real difference between this murder and those of Garda McCabe and Mr. McCartney is that this time the republican movement have something they are absolutely desperate not to loose; namely the executive.

    SF know that something needs to be done to allow the DUP to stay in government with them. As such there was the initial line of no IRA involvement / no coporate involvement. Then there was the blackening of Mr. Quinn’s name (something Mr. Gaskin does with no little aplomb viz his more may come out post). Then if necessary there is the possibility of throwing Conor Murphy to the wolves if Red Deisel’s interesting suggestion were to be right.

    Of course alternative strategies have been suggested which SF could have followed but that might have involved sacrificing something even more important than power sharing namely the maintaince of the army council and the personal position of those at its zenith.

    I am unclear whether Mr. Gaskin has taken upon himself the mantle of defender of the indefensible here or whether he was invited to do it. Either way as URQUHART suggests some of his own supporters and fellow travellers are most likely rather embrrassed by his display and thus far seem disinclined to come to his aid.

  • andy

    Urquhart
    Fair enough on those cases. I would just caution that the original story regarding Gareth O’Connnor – that the provos killed him as they owed him money and didnt want to repay them, was exposed as a pack of horseshit when he was revealed to be a tout.

    Also I have a feeling that Chris is right in one respect – in the cases mentioned the truth came out fairly quickly (I guess a cynic could say it was obvious from the start)

    One other aspect is that some are suggesting a conspiracy of cover-up among:
    1)the DUP
    2)The Gardai
    3) The PSNI
    4) The British Government

    All of whom were content to jeopardise the “process” by claiming Provo involvement in the Northern Bank job (and most of whom were accusatory over the “spy ring”), but are now meant to be covering up for the provos. I’m not sure how credible that is.

  • URQUHART

    Chris, actually, you do regularly talk in broad terms about how the people of South Armagh think / feel / react to events. It’s very irritating.

    Although I note with interest that you chose to ignore my point about Conor Murphy’s response to the murder of Frank Kerr. Probably best.

    And how do you know where I’m from? Just curious.

  • dewi

    What’s your theory Chris?

  • “Chris
    I appreciate that you say the family have offered to meet the family.”

    I think you meant Sinn Féin have offered…

    “1) What do SF gain by castigating the Quinn support group?”

    The have not castigated the group, they have castigated certain members of it.

    These same members only interest is to try and damage Sinn Féin for personal and political reasons. They have no interest in justice and they are using this family’s grief for their own ends.

    “2) What would they lose by interacting with it?”

    We will not be giving these individuals any platform. Added to the fact that some of these individuals are very volatile and a public slaging match, which they would cause for the benefit of the media, would serve no one least of all the Quinn family.

    We have offered to meet the Quinn family and will do anything we can in order to help them but we will be having nothing to do with McAllister and Co.

    “I accept that there is no evidence beyond reasonable doubt to prove Provo involvement.”

    There isn’t even evidence to the standard of the balance of probabilities. There is NO evidence of IRA involvement. Innuendo, lies and conjecture don’t count as evidence.

    “This isnt your fault particularly, but assuming the IRA were not responsible, they must at least know who was.”

    Why must we know? Sinn Féin is a political party not a police force.

  • URQUHART

    Apologies Chris, I’ve just noticed your dig at me:

    “I imagine” – The imagination of stoops has never really interested me

    Very droll. The imagination of stoops may not be of interest to you – it’s not particularly of interest to me either. But when you slavishly defend a party that has adopted, wholescale, the analysis of the stoops, such stuff just makes you look silly.

  • Turgon

    I post on this board as an individual, I don’t need anyone to come to my aid.

    URQUHART

    I don’t really care what irritates you.

    Regarding where you are from, you mentioned it in a previous exchange.

  • URQUHART

    Andy, your scepticism that a ‘cover-up’ between all those parties would be possible is fair enough. But I would make one point – when the briefing was going on that the Provos were behind the Northern Bank heist, they seemed pretty sure that it was being co-ordinated by intelligence and political interests on both sides of the border.

    And enough people, including some who are claiming the idea is ludicrous here, were happy enough to buy into a ‘co-ordinated intelligence effort’ theory then.

    Funny how having your arse in back of a ministerial car can change your view of things, isn’t it?

  • Dewi

    My theory would be of no benefit to anyone. Most posters here have no problem with suggesting all kind of outlandish suggestions and theories.

    What would it accomplish?

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Chris,

    there is evidence of IRA involvement – the IRA is the main violent group in the area- those involved behaved in a manner similar to the IRA – there is evidence of bad feeling between the victim and members of the Provos.

    re. Who beleives the Provos.

    Bertie believes that the operation was not centrally sanctioned – he has not stated that individual Provos are not involved. Credible authorities on the subject are the National Newspapers(British and Irish) and the IMC, the Gardai, the PSNI all think there was at least individual Provo involvement.

    re. Quinn’s criminality, as someone who lives near the border you should know that smuggling is a cultural norm.

    Murphy’s attempt to smear Quinn with a ‘crime’ to take the heat of Republicans for suspicion for a really horrendous one is an absolute shocker an a dreadful widgery.

    To Widgery: To blacken someone’s name often a victim, by suggesting his involvment in an non relevant act in order to distract attention from or lessen the impact of a far more serious offence.

    re. Dewi’s request for an alternative theory – it further weakens your case when not able to suggest an alternative explanation- to the quack like a duck then it must be a duck view of most people.

  • “there is evidence of IRA involvement – the IRA is the main violent group in the area- those involved behaved in a manner similar to the IRA – there is evidence of bad feeling between the victim and members of the Provos.”

    That is not evidence, not by a long shot!

    “Bertie believes that the operation was not centrally sanctioned – he has not stated that individual Provos are not involved”

    The Taoiseach told the Dáil that his view was that there was no paramilitary involvement in Paul’s murder and that it was the result of a criminal feud

    “Credible authorities on the subject are the National Newspapers(British and Irish)”

    Suzanne Breen et al???? LOL, give me a break!

    “IMC, the Gardai, the PSNI all think there was at least individual Provo involvement. ”

    When did they say that???

    “as someone who lives near the border you should know that smuggling is a cultural norm”

    I never said it wasn’t but last time I checked conviction of it still left you with a criminal conviction.

    “re. Dewi’s request for an alternative theory – it further weakens your case when not able to suggest an alternative explanation- to the quack like a duck then it must be a duck view of most people.”

    I don’t wish to be accused of blackening the name of the victim therefore I will keep my theories to myself.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    In the imaginary case of the Provos versus the Rest of the World in trying to etablish whether the Provos were responsible for killing someone in a particular area it would be permissible for the rest of the world to call a witness stating that the Provos were the main violent group in an area. It would also be permissable as evidence for witnesses to state if they had seen the victim in violent dispute with known members of said violent gang.

    The IMC report stated that members of the Provos were involved – this will have been provided with information form Gardai and PSNI. Irish government supports this body – Bertie’s statements presumably before this issued.

  • “it would be permissible for the rest of the world to call a witness stating that the Provos were the main violent group in an area”

    Your argument is a non sequitur. It does not in anyway prove that the IRA was involved.

    The Canal Court is the main hotel in Newry; it doesn’t mean that it is the only one.

    Can you not see how flawed your logic is???

    “It would also be permissible as evidence for witnesses to state if they had seen the victim in violent dispute with known members of said violent gang”

    Do we have that in this case? NO, all we have is hearsay which is inadmissible.

    “The IMC report stated that members of the Provos were involved”

    No it did not!!!

    John Grieve said “Despite the fact that we are saying it is a local dispute, we do believe that those who were involved in the attack on him – in his brutal murder – included people who are members or former members or have associations with members or former members of the Provisional IRA,”

    That means that they haven’t got a clue! IRA members OR former members OR have associations with members OR former members.

    I mean Ian Paisley could fit that build as he has associations with former members. If you take the time to read it closely you will see that the IMC never actually say that the IRA was involved.

    All they do is speculate

  • drum

    behold the world-renown South Armagh genius for demolition, as young Gaskin blows up his career. This is what it was for then. From “no republicans involved” to “no IRA involvement.” Defending slaughterers of Catholic postal workers against libel — can you sue if we forget to mention that they shot Frank post-ceasefire? Slithering hints about proving a dead kid’s criminality if his parents press too hard. Was that what it was for, all that gunpowder and sky, so a young Irishman can get lured away from his native townlands and murdered — a lynching would have been more merciful than what he got — and SF can wring its hands about McAllister?

    McAllister must be close to sixty. If the Quinns provided alsations and a metal detector for safety, would SF sit down with them and look them in the eye, Mcallister be damned?

    Do the people signing Paul’s bebo page sound like dissidents, diesel smugglers and anti-Republican hacks to all of you? Because they sound like gutted twenty year olds to me. Except that so many of them are so good looking, they look pretty much like my friends and neighbors. And yours.

  • drum
  • Drum

    Is there a purpose or a point to your post? .

  • The Dubliner

    “behold the world-renown South Armagh genius for demolition, as young Gaskin blows up his career.” – drum

    On the contrary, young Gaskin has matured from into exactly the type of vulgar apologist who will go far in PSF. He is right about the evidence: it doesn’t exist outside a court of law, and the purpose of PSF’s attack campaign is to ensure that it never gets into a court of law. The governments are happy to facilitate that outcome, just as the people of South Armagh are will comply with PIRA’s direction not to cooperate with the justice system. The last thing the governments want is any link to PIRA, the Army Council, the vast profits of tens of millions annually going into the hands of the PIRA from fuel smuggling or the £240 million that is lost every year to the UK taxpayer thanks to that mafia – and, of course, the members of the mafia in Stormont.

    Mick Fealty’s analysis of the ‘brand’ issue is interesting: if the party’s ‘brand’ is tarnished by violence, and no party’s ‘brand’ is more tarnished by violence than PSF, then it should follow that PSF would not have been electable. Yet, it is the top party ‘brand’ among nationalists in NI. The brutal murder of Robert McCartney and the instruction to the local nationalist community not to cooperate with the justice system didn’t stop them, as Mick pointed out, from increasing their vote in NI. It’s more likely that nationalists in NI simply don’t care who PSF murder, or don’t make the connection between ‘caring’ and not voting for them, rather than the lack of an alternative (for no alternative could exist if the voters don’t care what the incumbent does). In the south, folks do care, do make the connection, and properly don’t vote for them. Since PSF and their associates in their mafia know that they can murder and get away with it, that’s what they will continue to do.

  • Ah Dubliner, how you have changed since you went nutty!

    Please tell me when did the PIRA issue a direction to the people of South Armagh telling them not to cooperate with the justice system???

    You are letting that wild imagination of your’s to run away with itself, again!

    You would be better to tilt that tin hat to the left a bit.

  • Mick Fealty

    I’ll sign off with this quote from a homeless guy I knew in Liverpool in the early eighties who’d spent a lot of time inside both mental institutions and prisons: “I’d rather be locked up with a murderer than a liar”.

    Just because he was ‘mad’ doesn’t mean he was stupid.

  • Fíor

    Chris Gaskin;

    Do you remember these statements from the Movement which appeared after years of denial? They are of relevance in the Quinn case. How many years of denial must there be, before an admission of responsibility?

    Full text of Irish Republican Army (IRA) statement on the disappeared,10 December 1998

    Óglaigh na hÉireann investigations into the whereabouts of the bodies of a small number of people killed and buried by the IRA over 20 years ago are continuing.

    We urge anyone with information which may be of assistance in identifying the location of the grave of any of these people to pass this information to ourselves or to the family of the person concerned.

    Any information passed to the IRA concerning these matters will be treated in strictest confidence and without prejudice to the source.

    P O’Neill,
    Irish Republican Publicity Bureau,
    Dublin.

    Or this statement?

    The following statement from the leadership of Óglaigh na hÉireann was released on Friday 24 October 2003

    “Following the recovery and confirmation of the identity of the remains of Jean McConville, we would like to take this opportunity to state our position in relation to those killed and buried by the IRA.

    We are sorry that the suffering of those families has continued for so long. We wish to apologise for the grief caused.

    We believe that the sites identified are the locations where those killed by the IRA are buried.

    The IRA is not responsible in any way for the disappearance of a number of other people who have gone missing over the past 30 years.

    Many complicating factors have both hampered and protracted our investigation, established under the command of one of our most senior Volunteers. These included the lapse in time, changes in leadership and the deaths of both members and former members of Óglaigh na hÉireann who were involved.

    In some instances the topography of the locations underwent major changes.

    Some months ago we undertook a detailed re-examination of all the available information, including revisiting each site. As a result we passed on information regarding two sites, where the bodies of Jean McConville and Columba McVeigh had been buried. We have acted in good faith in regard to this issue and continue to do so.

    Our intention in initiating our investigation has been to rectify this injustice, for which we accept full responsibility.

    During the course of all these searches we have continued to process all information that might assist in any way. So far the remains of four people have been recovered. We will do all that we can to bring closure for the other families.

    If further information comes to light we will assess and process that information.”

    P O’Neill
    Irish Republican Publicity Bureau
    Dublin

    Or this?

    IRA apology

    On October 5 1974 Eugene McQuaid was killed as the result of an explosion, near the border at Newry.

    The leadership of Óglaigh na hÉireann was asked by the McQuaid family to investigate the circumstances surrounding the death of Eugene McQuaid.

    Our investigation has found that:

    • An IRA operation was in place on that day aimed at a British Army patrol that was known to travel that particular stretch of the road regularly.

    • Eugene McQuaid was killed when an explosive device, intended for that patrol, was detonated prematurely.

    • Eugene McQuaid was not a member of the IRA. He was not involved in the IRA operation.

    • At the time the IRA did not acknowledge its involvement in the incident.

    The IRA leadership offers its sincere apologies to the McQuaid family for the death of Eugene and for the heartache and trauma that our actions have caused.

    P.O’Neill,
    Irish Republican Publicity Bureau,
    Dublin. 12 April 2006

    Or finally this, again not admitted by Óglaigh at the time?

    IRA offers apology
    The following is the text of a statement supplied to An Phoblacht this week from Óglaigh na hÉireann:

    On 3 September 1971 Angela Gallagher, who was 17-months-old, was killed after she was struck by a ricochet when the IRA fired shots at a British army patrol in the Iveagh Drive /Iveagh Street area of Belfast.
    The IRA leadership offers its sincere apologies to the family of Angela Gallagher for the pain and heartache that they have suffered as a result of our action

    Maraíodh Angela Gallagher, leanbh 17mí, nuair a scaoileadh í ag ricochet ar an 3ú Meán Fómhar 1971 nuair a lámhaigh Óglaigh na hÉireann ar scuad de chuid Arm na Breataine sa cheantar Cabhsa Iveagh – Sraid Iveagh de Bhéal Feirste.
    Tá ceannaireacht Óglaigh na hÉireann ag tairscint leithscéalta ón chroí do chlann Angela Gallagher as an bhuairt agus an bhriseadh chroí atá fulaingthe acú mar thoradh gnímh s’againne.

    Chris, once, like you, I had unbinding faith too, but various events and decisions by the leadership forced me to think for myself.

  • I am thinking for myself Fíor, I am aware of all those statements.

    They don’t change a thing in relation to this case though.

  • dewi

    Chris – you refuse to speculate because of effect on grieving family morale. Stating that is a bit more devious, implying bad character through a nod and a wink.

  • Fíor

    Well, Chris, all I’ll say is be a bit more willing to accept all possibilities, and don’t let yourself be influenced by those, who on one hand, attack the Movt at every opportunity, or those who on the other hand are prepared to deny the Movt’s wrongdoings. Its happened before, it could well happen again

  • Not at all dewi, You asked me to speculate and I refused to do so. I was then pressed to explain why I wasn’t prepared to speculate so I told them.

    That’s all

  • New Yorker

    Chris Gaskin

    Still trying to prove there is no elephant in the room. Nobody believes it. Like I said, you need to start practicing the lines there is no voter intimidation and we have a mandate. You could need them quicker than you think.

    I’m sure it will not occur to anybody that if I don’t get out and vote SF, I might have a few boys at the door, they’re not the violent type. And, SF would never violate the secret ballot, sure they never steal or spy.

    The Quinn murder reinforces the intimidation. And people wonder how they maintain their vote. Look at the different results in the ROI where there was relatively little intimidation and a secure secret ballot.

    Glad to see one of your councilors finally did the right thing. The MP will not be welcomed until he withdraws his criminality charges according to quinnsupport.com.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Chris,

    Regarding evidence of IRA involvment.

    “Your argument is a non sequitur. It does not in anyway prove that the IRA was involved”

    I did not contend that there was proof – only that there is evidence.

    Regarding credible witnesses of an altercation between Quinn and memebers of the Provos – “Mr Quinn’s family issued a short statement saying he had recently been involved in altercations with individual members of the Provisional IRA”

    Those who witnessed said attack above could offer it in court to show a link between Quinn and Provos.

    Are you, or Sinn Fein denying that such altercations took place? If so – I wonder how that sits with the Quinn family?

  • sean synic

    I remember talking to Pat Doherty a couple of years ago, and the concern he expressed then was about what might happen each time an individual stepped out of line. Would SF take the blame for it?

    The answer, it seems, is no. Indeed, there has been a great deal of understanding extended in various tight situations. SF’s word has been allowed to stand in where otherwise there could have been trouble if the unionist camp been minded to play rough. Even with some nasty unanswered questions floating awkwardly around, the corporate defence line has been accepted and even re-articulated by the DUP.

    The difference or irony now being that where once Unionists would squeal and howl and bring down the whole process anytime that the Provos so much as sneezed, and SF’s public were quite happy to look away and pretend the Provos were angels and the Unionists demons, we now have the likes of Paisley happily cavorting with McGuinness down 5th avenue with nary a word about murder in barn sheds threatening any executive – but the people have had enough.

    What good trading the people for the executive if the people stop voting them in?

    Or is that just (another) sign of how much SF takes their vote for granted?

    Sure who would they vote for, anyway, if not SF

  • Jo

    Much though it disgusts me that Jim Allister mentions today Paul Quinn’s murder as a reason why “traditional Unionists” should rally to his flag, I cannot lose sight of the reason why he is able to use (and I say the word “use” advisedly) this tragedy.

    That reason is that this murder of a young man happened.

    All the circumstances and details which have emerged – however the minutiae are quibbled by SF – point to an organised and deliberate attack, the fall-out from which has been subject to tried and trusted strategic damage limitation. Except of course, on this occasion, the precipitating even happened in the Republican heartland of south Armagh. A place apart, in many ways.

    Those aspiring legal eagles who claim special insight into the area by virtue of the fact that they live there (something which apparently discounts any other perspective as intrinsically flawed) should perhaps take cognisance of the legal principle of the “Clapham Omnibus” or in this case, the Cullyhanna Bus.

    What people reasonably believe about what happened here is known now and will be known in the future. Perhaps months or years from now, there will be a P O’Neill missive on what “really” happened.

    Until then, what we have is belief – and propaganda. And yes, lies.

    SF have been cut slack by their erstwhile sworn enemies. It could be called with some little irony, “provisional trust”. What they do with that trust remains to be seen. But name calling and low level smearing isn’t a terribly good omen.

  • Mick Hall

    Chris,

    I understand why you are posting in the manner that you are but I’m puzzled as to what your actually saying. Are you saying that because the young man has a criminal record he got what he deserved, surly not.

    If that is what you are implying then you should take into account that one in three men under 30 in the UK have a criminal record yet the overwhelming majority go on to lead a productive and decent life. It is as if such behavior has become a right of passage for many men, which probably tells us more about the society we live in than the individuals themselves.

    If anyone seriously believes that a 20 year old lad is going to behave like a saint then they are his mum, but this does not mean his mates should be given a beating in order to make them set the lad up. nor does it mean the lad himself should be put in the ground now does it.

    Do you unreservedly condemn those who beat young Quinn to death? Sorry to put you in this position but I’m a little worried were you are heading with this.

  • “Are you saying that because the young man has a criminal record he got what he deserved, surly not.”

    Of course not, I also never said he had a criminal record.

    “Do you unreservedly condemn those who beat young Quinn to death?”

    Of course Mick, I have made that clear from the start.

  • Mick Hall

    Thanks Chris, that is good enough for me.

  • Gum

    Just seen this post now Mick. So you’re not going to talk about feverish speculation in the public domain. Just going to heavily imply skullduggery and a leave strongly partisan piece there instead?

    Its your blog and I know you can post what you like, but Slugger’s status as the best place for actual news and accurate accounts of facts (at least in the blog if not in the comments) is undermined by a post like this.

  • mnob

    So let me get this right – its ok for SF to sit in government with the DUP and have tea with the UK prime minister, US president et al but they wont pass the time of day with a republican.

    What a curious world we live in.

  • mnob

    ““Do you unreservedly condemn those who beat young Quinn to death?”

    Of course Mick, I have made that clear from the start. ”

    So why mention any of the other stuff ?

  • Jo

    Of course not, I also never said he had a criminal record.

    Posted by Chris Gaskin on Dec 07, 2007 @ 12:23 PM

    ______________________________________________

    That is simply not true.

    See below:
    _______________________________________________

    Is Balrog going to denounce those who have branded Paul Quinn a criminal, or does the site have more regard for others?

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/iri…7997- qqqx=1.asp
    Jo | 11.15.07 – 4:16 pm | #

    ——————————————————————————–

    Why would Balrog denounce something that is true? Paul WAS involved in fuel smuggling.
    Chris Gaskin | Homepage | 11.15.07 – 4:27 pm | #

  • RepublicanStones

    Jo there is a big difference between being involved in something and having been convicted of it. you only have a criminal record if you have been convicted. you seem unaware of how you have contradicted yourself in your own post.

  • mnob

    He is ant-Sinn Féin, he has no interest in Republicanism anymore.

    What do you mean by the “the other stuff”?

  • Jo, that link doesn’t work

  • Jo

    More examples of the quibbling I mentioned.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Chris, do Sinn Fein or your good self for that matter ackowledge there was a recent fracas between Quinn and member(s) of the Provos? If not how do think this might effect relations between SF and Quinn support group. Perhaps we should ask them?

    Can I say that you are performing a very useful public role here – you are keeping this issue/blog alive and reinforcing the view that the SF have dealt with issue very, very badly. (Poor old Conor – you can tell from his chops he doesent believe a word of it).

    On a personsal level given the stickiness of your wicket your playing a stormer.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Not the point, Chris…

    Chris on Balrog: “Why would Balrog denounce something that is true? Paul WAS involved in fuel smuggling. ”

    Chris on Slugger: “Of course not, I also never said he had a criminal record. ”

    Now, granting that you’re doing an excellent job of splitting hairs, you are still implying (and clumsily, I might add) that Quinn got what was coming to him. You have unequivocably stated he was involved in fuel smuggling, a criminal activity. You have remained notably silent on Quinn’s altercations with PIRA members. I wonder why that is? Hmmmm… a fella exchanges harsh words with PIRA members and comes down with a bad case of the dead… reminds me of a fella in a bar, not that long ago.

    As for your comment about “PIRA having learned from past events,” so long as you have revered figures with funny pirate nick-names and on-going
    criminal enterprises, you’re going to continue to have these “incidents,” since criminal enterprises neither protect themselves nor insure easily.
    The best bet would be to tell all the paramilitaries — both sides, all branches, splinters and roots — to get stuffed. Give them until 1/1/08 to wind down and wrap up their criminal enterprises and then let PSNI do their job. The longer we have to listen to mealy-mouthed word games like this, the longer it’s going to be SSDD. Better to lance the boil of paracriminal activity and let the pus and scum drain out.

  • Gum

    Sammy, surely nobody disputes that Quinn’s killers were in the IRA. The real issue here (from a political point of view as opposed to the criminal issue of how we put them all behind bars) is whether they are IRA men still or whether they are now using links forged during the troubles to line their pockets through crime.

    If the IRA havent disbanded (apart from the limited command structure that all parties agredd should stay in place to make sure rank and file members didnt fall into criminality or start their own ‘war’), then this is a problem. But SF, its voters and the peaceprocess should not have to suffer because of rogue former IRA members.

  • “Chris, do Sinn Fein or your good self for that matter ackowledge there was a recent fracas between Quinn and member(s) of the Provos?”

    I can’t speak for Sinn Féin however I don’t acknowledge that there was a “recent fracas between Quinn and member(s) of the Provos”

    “If not how do think this might effect relations between SF and Quinn support group. Perhaps we should ask them?”

    There is no relationship between Sinn Féin and the Quinn Support Group on account of the Chairman of that group and some of the members.

  • “you are still implying (and clumsily, I might add) that Quinn got what was coming to him”

    NO I AM NOT!!!!!!

    “You have unequivocably stated he was involved in fuel smuggling”

    He was, a fact even acknowledged by McAllister and McNamee.

    “As for your comment about “PIRA having learned from past events,”

    I never made that comment, please show me where I made it??

    “Sammy, surely nobody disputes that Quinn’s killers were in the IRA”

    Many do actually because we have yet to see any evidence for such.

  • Gum

    Chris – the issue here is how other parties and commentators are using this murder as a way to attack SF. Mick’s disgusting post above allows ugly and vicious rumours to circulate to an even greater extent. All groups have bad elements, and you’re kidding yourself if you think that a small number of IRA men along the border havent used old skills to make money through crime in the vacuum created since demilitarization started. They are NOT republicans, dishonour an honourable cause and should be shunned rather than defended. SF should say simply say this: its not a slight on republicans as these thugs have already given up their rights to describe themselves as such.

  • Gum-

    It’s interesting how you describe Mick’s post as “disgusting” when you basically admit that the provisional movement is defending the people involved in the killing (when it should be shunning them, as you say), yet don’t seem too bothered by the morality (or lack thereof) of that stance.

    There’s certainly something disgusting going on, but it ain’t Mick’s post.

  • Jo

    No-one is using this issue to atatck SF except those extremists with a sectarian, anti-power sharing agenda. The DUP are still in government, aren’t they?

    The rest of us have a scepticism to which we are fully entitled but we also have a humanity and compassion – both features which are not remarkably in evidence in the SF response to this murder.

  • Gum

    Oh really El Mat? Thanks for clearing that up. What IS disgusting is that some use discussion of this murder for their own ends. I include you in this too. You dont get as positively orgasmic as the UUs do when a republican is murdered by ‘one of their own’, but your love of bashing SF comes through so strongly.

    If I was unclear in what I said earlier: I think SF should shut up discussing the young man’s own history and simply condemn those that killed him as brutal and incredibly cowardly thugs.

  • Gum-

    Ah, so it’s me in the wrong now. Hmmm.

    By the way, I agree when you say “I think SF should shut up discussing the young man’s own history and simply condemn those that killed him as brutal and incredibly cowardly thugs.”

    It’s the fact that they haven’t done this that has spawned the whole discussion. I’m not to blame for that. The Quinn Support Group is not to blame for that. The killers of Paul Quinn and the members of Sinn Féin who have acted like idiots since then have only themselves to blame if uncomfortable discussions are held on Slugger or elsewhere.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Chris Gaskin: “NO I AM NOT!!!!!! ”

    Then why the repeated stress that the man was a fuel smuggler? The obviouss implication is that, as an active criminal, the “wages of sin” being death, he simply paid the price so common to his chosen vocation. If you are not actively seeking to diminish the culpability of the killers, what point is there to bring it up?

    Now, for the points you seem unwilling (or unable) to address…

    You have remained notably silent on Quinn’s altercations with PIRA members. I wonder why that is? Hmmmm… a fella exchanges harsh words with PIRA members and comes down with a bad case of the dead… reminds me of a fella in a bar, not that long ago.

    As for your comment about “PIRA having learned from past events,” so long as you have revered figures with funny pirate nick-names and on-going
    criminal enterprises, you’re going to continue to have these “incidents,” since criminal enterprises neither protect themselves nor insure easily. Ergo, they must be actively defended.

    The best bet would be to tell all the paramilitaries—both sides, all branches, splinters and roots—to get stuffed. Give them until 1/1/08 to wind down and wrap up their criminal enterprises and then let PSNI do their job. The longer we have to listen to mealy-mouthed word games like this, the longer it’s going to be SSDD. Better to lance the boil of paracriminal activity and let the pus and scum drain out.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Gum: “I think SF should shut up discussing the young man’s own history and simply condemn those that killed him as brutal and incredibly cowardly thugs. ”

    That only works if PIRA either has no involvement or their involvement is such that it does not trace back to any notable individuals.

    The volume and frequency of their discussion of Quinn’s background would suggest that these circumstances are unlikely.

    Gum: “You dont get as positively orgasmic as the UUs do when a republican is murdered by ‘one of their own’, but your love of bashing SF comes through so strongly. ”

    The Unionist side of the equation kept a firewall between their paramilitary (and, thus, their para-criminal) organizations and their politics, which affords them the opportunity to gloat at SF’s discomfit.

    As El Matador rightly points out, the fault lies with the killers and the SF hacks and flacks who seem to have a collection of tin ears.

  • Gum

    Dread – why give them any more time? How about the 7/12/07 as the end to criminality?!

    El Mat – I’m not afraid of ‘uncomfortable’ discussions. What I hate is the likes of Mick telling us he heard scandalous and shocking rumours of who was there, and then adopting the holier than thou tone and says he wont repeat them. Nicely done, no? We’re all left with the image of Gerry Adams holding one of the bars.

    Come on, you dont think that sloppy and irresponsible? If you dont, try imaging Mick treating the DUP the same way. Yeah, neither do I!!

  • Gum-

    “We’re all left with the image of Gerry Adams holding one of the bars.”

    Come on now, don’t be silly. No one has suggested that the orders came down from Gerry- this was a local thing. Gerry isn’t in the driving seat down in south Armagh.

    As for your point about the DUP- they haven’t a recent history of provaricating or indeed misleading people over their associates’ involvement in killings like that of Robert McCartney or Frank Kerr or Garda McCabe. Nor have they a track record of dealing with people in this way, unlike the provisional movement. Sinn Féin and the IRA have history in the art of smoke and daggers when it comes to inconvenient murders.

  • Smoke and mirrors even!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Gum: “Dread – why give them any more time? How about the 7/12/07 as the end to criminality?! ”

    Four reasons, actually…

    1) A bit of symbolism — new year, new leaf, etc.

    2) There is always some idiot who doesn’t get the memo. By granting a few extra weeks, hopefully the stupid and the oblivious get a little more time to catch the clue.

    3) It is the X-mas season and even extortionists and hoods need some extra dosh for presents

    4) It going to take just as much time for the police to wrap their heads around the notion of the law not being trumped by political issues as the hoods will. It best not to rush them.

  • Gum

    Seriously Dread? I dont think any of those reasons are worth anything. The writing has been on the wall for long enough. Criminality must be over.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Gum: “I dont think any of those reasons are worth anything. The writing has been on the wall for long enough. Criminality must be over. ”

    I don’t disagree, although some would appear to disagree.

    I figure one last polite exchange, expressed in small words and large block letter — perhaps in crayon on butcher’s paper — telling them time is up, isn’t going to hurt anyone, except perhaps the hoods, spides, smugglers, pushers and the others of that ilk. (If this doesn’t make it clear that this was a “modest proposal,” nothing will.)

    But that is, arguably, a different issue than the one central to this discussion — my fault, so mea culpa.

    At central issue is, as a minimum, SF’s amazing ability, if nothing else, than to look and act guilty as hand-made, home-made sin. I can argue about Donaldson and The Northern Bank robbery, insofar as there are other candidates for guilt with readily apparent motives. I can even fold my head around the notion of some of the past murders, such as McCartney having a large aspect of misplaced loyalties on the part of some SF / PIRA personnel after a drunken encounter gone wrong.

    The Quinn murder hits me differently. It could be the premeditation — gloves and boilersuits. It could be the lack of another readily identifiable suspects with a natural motive. It could simply be SF’s ham-handed effort to get out ahead of the story, with frequent repetition of the young man’s history. There is something in this scenario that stinks and perhaps what makes me the most suspicious is the inability of some to acknowledge the smell.

  • drum

    6/12/07

    QUINNS INVITE SINN FÉIN COUNCILLORS TO MEETING

    The Quinn family have invited four Sinn Féin councillors from the Slieve Gullion ward to attend a campaign meeting in Crossmaglen Community Centre on Thursday 13th December.

    Briege and Stephen Quinn said:

    “All public representatives have been invited to the meeting. We have noted the condemnation of Paul’s murder in a recent statement on behalf of the Sinn Féin councillors and their offer of assistance in the campaign to bring his killers to justice. To the best of our knowledge, none of these councillors has made or repeated any allegation of criminality against Paul. They could assist us by attending the meeting organised by our Support Group as representatives of the area where we live and Paul lived.

    “We would like to draw two points to their attention. At the public meeting in Cullyhanna we repeated the appeal we had made at the funeral for no retaliation at any kind. We very specifically said: ‘Please don’t break windows or intimidate people because you are hurting them but you are also hurting us too. We have been hurt enough. Please let the PSNI and the Garda do the work. We want justice for Paul through the courts and no other way.’

    “Secondly, we and our Support Group have wanted from the beginning to take all politics out of this murder investigation and to have people of all political opinions and none support our campaign. We and the Support Group have stated very clearly that there is nothing known about Paul’s murder which should have any impact whatever on the power-sharing Executive and Sinn Féin’s continued participation in it.

    “We expect public representatives from north and south to attend: invitations have been issued to TDs and councillors from the border counties.”

    http://www.quinnsupport.com/news.htm

  • Mick Fealty

    Gum,

    “Mick’s disgusting post above allows ugly and vicious rumours to circulate to an even greater extent.”

    The blog post is quite long and fairly detailed. Which part of it is ‘disgusting’ in your view? Certainly some of the details in it discuss some pretty distasteful aspects of the post peace process era, but I struggle to see what there is within the post itself that could earn that description.

    As to rumours, I have specifically argued that these should play no part in the discussion. Indeed I have had to pull one or two. But if you are suggesting that this issue in all its messy complexity should not be discussed at all, then I respectfully disagree.

    I would agree with one aspect though. Someone from inside the Republican movement should stand up and for once call a spade a spade. The very least that could be done is to declare that what we have here is a dirty peace which perhaps inevitably follows any dirty war.

    Instead we get this absurd blaming the victim line that wears all the thinner for its repeated use.

  • Mick

    Have you any evidence that the Republican movement was involved in this murder?

    For that would be the only basis upon which you could make that last comment, though perhaps lies and innuendo suffice with you so far as Republicans are concerned.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Chris, there is evidence – you choose to ignore it – there is no proof – that will probably have to wait until SF decide the political/electoral pressure is too great to keep up their current widgery position – Quinn was to blame for his own death.

  • Mick Fealty

    You don’t have to buy into the idea that the IRA was directly involved in this or any other attack to take that stance Chris.

    But the truth here is that all paramilitary groups from the IRA to the UDA have been involved in punishment beatings for the whole period of the peace process. It is how they held in check all manner of anti social behaviour, as well as dealing with political dissent. You only have to listen to the complaints from locals that they don’t do it any more to know that it is what they did.

    Now that it is finally and definitively off limits, the party could do with being a little more robust with those who continue to use those method. But sticking the verbal boot directly into the victim’s family sends another message entirely.

    For my money that is a strategy that is only ever likely to keep the movement ever moving backwards.

    The question is rather why can they not bring themselves to do it?

  • Wrong Mick, for your statement below would need Republican involvement in order for it to be carried out.

    Trying to suggest otherwise is disingenuous in the extreme.

    “Someone from inside the Republican movement should stand up and for once call a spade a spade. The very least that could be done is to declare that what we have here is a dirty peace which perhaps inevitably follows any dirty war.”
    …………………………………….

    “Sticking the verbal boot directly into the victims family sends another message entirely.”

    That hasn’t happened in this case, are you suggesting that it has occurred???

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Chris Gaskin: “For that would be the only basis upon which you could make that last comment, though perhaps lies and innuendo suffice with you so far as Republicans are concerned. ”

    Funnily enough, did not SF not use lies and innuendo (not unlike your repetition that Quinn was a fuel smuggler… gee, what conclusion is a body supposed to draw from that, I wonder…) to seek to hide PIRA’s complicity with past murders?

    If a body cries wolf one too many times, the folks stop believining their cries. Proclaim you innocence loudly (and falsely) one too many times, split a few too many hairs, and folks will likewise stop believing.

    If you live by the innuendo, you may die by the innuendo.

    Mick Fealty: “The question is rather why can they not bring themselves to do it? ”

    Who wants to be the one who kills the goose what lays the golden eggs?

  • Mick Hall

    Mick

    Your no 14 post is spot on, but to be fair to SF there line will be if they do this and openly admit this is a dirty peace, there enemies will immediately cry back, there we told you they admit themselves they are up to their necks in criminality.

    Look how the Tories behaved when Gordon Brown said there had been criminality in the Abraham’s case, the Tories started flinging his honesty back in his face, i e even the PM admitted a crime has been committed.

    But you are correct there needs to be some honesty here, perhaps someone like Jim Gibney who is known as a man who tests the water on Adams behalf should write something on this.

    What enrages and disappoints many people over and again is as you say this knee-jerk reaction from SF which has little reality with actual events. The trouble with the whole rotten process is that each of the party’s enjoy it greatly when one of the other parties gets into difficulties. Which makes a nonsense of coalition government. Because if what you say should occur it should be coming from both SF and the DUP jointly.

    Now if the chuckle brothers were to say we are where we are but we have a long way to go before we see the back of paramilitary criminality etc, instead of going around pretending to be best buddies whilst plotting against each other the process might move forward, although i will not be holding my breath.

  • joeCanuck

    Chris,
    This has been a tour de force and you must be exhausted.
    But perception is reality for many if not most people. Your post in answer to Mick Hall a while back made your personal opinion very clear and is to be admired.
    Yet I think many people obviously feel that you are defending the indefensible.
    Time for a well earned rest.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Chris Gaskin: “That hasn’t happened in this case, are you suggesting that it has occurred??? ”

    First of all, your distinction is noted and found to be amusing, in a darkly humorous fashion. I can almost hear the poor SF flack-hack wheezing “But we didn’t do it *THIS* time…” The fact that you felt the need to make the distinction is telling.

    Second, what would you call stressing that Quinn was a fuel smuggler, if not having a go at the victim and his family? What useful purpose does it serve, other than to diminish the apparent severity of the crime, by tarring Quinn as a criminal and partly culpable in his death?

    Mick Hall: “but to be fair to SF there line will be if they do this and openly admit this is a dirty peace, there enemies will immediately cry back, there we told you they admit themselves they are up to their necks in criminality. ”

    Sorta like Republicans have reacted to collusion reports in recent memory, Mick?

    The major difference that I can see is that, in the case of Republican criminality, no one is really all that in denial — sure, the hacks and flacks stumble through the right words of denial, but the man on the street has the eyes to see and ears to hear the truth. It lacks the level of self-delusion that Unionists had over the issue of collusion.

    The other problem is that if this boil is not lanced, it will continue until the stink gets so great that such an admission is unavoidable, ala Gordon in the Abraham matter. As they say, you can pay now or pay later — but paying later will likely to be more expensive. If the SF spinners weren’t so left-footed, it would be better to pay now and go forward than let this mess fester until something erupts that can’t be spun.

  • steve

    Paul Quinn was a fuel smuggler so maybe the police should be looking more deeply into his associates and background. Surely thats where the likely suspects exist.

    By the way how come I have heard inuendo about run ins with PIRA but never any facts? Except for the fact that Paul Quinn attacked a old man with out warning having lain in wait fo his victim

  • Mick Fealty

    Chris,

    It may be my fault, but I am not following your logic. I am arguing the movement takes a robust public position on this. That does not incorporate admitting republican involvement, if there was no such involvement. It does involve a clear and unambiguous line on the issue of punishment beatings in general, and this one in particular.

    For that to be in the least bit credible the movement needs to admit it was involved in such activities in the past, but that it is not okay now. It’s not a line even the toughest Republicans I’ve met wants to contemplate taking on up front. A spokesman with Army Council authority might circumvent any serious political damage to the party. But I don’t see an entirely fresh start without it. I may be being too short sighted on that, but that’s how it looks in the here and now.

    In the end it is for the party to judge. I’ve simply argued above that such callous behaviour in the face of the family’s distress is causing your party severe damage in the long run. Did the party put the verbal boot into the grieving family? It may be a matter of judgement, but I would say yes:

    “In the immediate wake of Quinn murder, Gerry Adams referred to accounts emerging from the family and others that Republicans were involved as ‘tittle tattle’. He then suggested this was the result of a dispute between diesel smugglers. His source: a few phone calls to some people in the area.”

    Ultimately such statements just help corrode the quality of the brand.

  • Mick Fealty

    steve, you can name the dead without fear of litigation.

  • drum

    Treanor tells the truth about the bad blood between him and Paul, Steve, why wouldn’t you? Not sure he’ll appreciate you calling him an “old man.”

    27/11/07

    QUINN SUPPORT GROUP CONDEMNS WINDOW BREAKING

    The Quinn Support Group has condemned the breaking of a hall window at the Treanor family home in Cullyhanna.

    “Everyone in this community needs to keep focused on the real issue, which is the brutal murder of a young lad by a dozen masked men wearing surgical gloves. The family called for no retaliation when the murder happened and repeated the call at the funeral, and as far as we are concerned the ban extends to window-breaking or other acts of petty vandalism.

    “We reiterate our call for no public finger-pointing. All information should be fed into the Garda and police investigation only. The people who killed Paul and those who are now providing cover for them want to divide this community and turn neighbour against neighbour. Cullyhanna must stand strong and united.

    “We commend Vincent Treanor for his honesty in admitting that he had what he delicately terms ‘words’ with Paul’s sister and a consequent altercation with Paul shortly before the murder. This is a considerable advance on his statement of 16th November. Its significance for the investigation, if any, is solely a matter for the police. Vincent Treanor and anyone else who feels intimidated in the wake of the murder will be welcome at our public meeting in Cullyhanna Community Centre tomorrow (Wednesday) night, as will all others who have suffered intimidation or attack in South Armagh.”

    As for the facts, what is in the public domain has been reported up and down the country.

  • steve

    But Mick is the truth not the ultimate unfailing defense against litigation?

    We already know one such “altercation” to be a complete false hood so maybe the truth is not coming out because its just not true?

  • Mick Fealty

    steve, your faith in British justice is touching.

  • Mick Fealty is going for broke to win this argument no matter what, and he seems to be winning on points after the bell for the final round should have long sounded.

    His point, from start to finish, has been that SF/PIRA had engaged in such murders and denials in the past aka tarnishing the brand name – what loyalists, with British connivance, have made into an avocation for them ever since the St. Patrick’s Day raid – before the GFA was agreed to, and they seem to have engaged in it once again despite their denials in Quinn’s case,as the family and its supporters immediately pointed the finger at them without any evidence.

    Despite SF/PIRA denials, they have been dismissed out of hand because of what any additional claim they may have made on the spir of the moment to justify themselves – what almost anyone would do under the circumstances – and then their loyalist supporters have gone on a spree to name all the supporting incidents which, it seems, support their claims.

    And for anyone, especially Chris Gaskins, to keep this vigilantism under some kind of control, he only suffers indignities like he somehow condones the brutal murder, etc.

    In sum, this is the verbal equivalent of what happened in violence to Robert MacCartney after the knife-wielding Brendan Devine started sticking everyone in sight.

    The final score: Fealty and his team, 15; SF and assorted scum: 0.

  • drum

    Steve, you are forgetting the expulsion order. Paul Quinn told his father about the expulsion order and was wary and afraid because of it. That is why his attackers went to the trouble of forcing lads he knew well to get him out to the shed at Tullycoora.

    Unless, Steve, you are suggesting to us Paul Quinn made up the reports of the expulsion order to his own father in order that the ra would be framed in the event he was ever beaten to death?

  • sad and sickened by chris gaskin

    It has been both sad and sickening to read the posts by chris gaskin all he has done is to convince me even more that they havnt gone away you know.It doesnt matter if young Quinn attended black masses the part time ex full time what ever ira thugs had no right to do what they done.If by any chance they didnt do it sure ol slab can serve them up to the psni compliments of his dear leader Gerry farkem all lyin btards.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Ultimately, it comes down to, following the revelations in theaftermath of the McCartney killing (and other similar events in recent memory), why those of us who, in the past, been willing to give PIRA the benefit of the doubt when these event bubble up, like a rat turd in a bucket of milk, why we should continue to do so.

    Chris would have us believe that it is unfair that we should not believe PIRA because “they weren’t involved, honest, they really mean it this time, they said so!!”

    In light of all the other times that they said they weren’t involved and meant it that time, I have to ask why should we drink the kool-aid this time? What makes this time any different?

    Fool me once, shame on you.

    Fool me twice, shame on me.

  • Jo

    Methinks the SF retreat into blog silence and/or drunken abuse is somewhat telling.

    Astonishing that, in recent times, republican blogs have cited the perceived religious affiliation of posters as a reason why their views should be *irrelevant*.

    I think SF in s. Armagh are in chaos because the love of killing by certain people can’t be restained. And I say this as someone who dosn’t vote for them but actually supports them in government.

    And yet I’m abused.

    Is someone off message here?

  • sceolaing

    this Gaskin is a gas man!!! I wonder is he in S.F at all? I am surprised that S F would have such an amadan speaking publicly for them but,then, it’s ‘bring on the yuppies’ time for them. Poor Chris, so afraid of Mcallister. Old McAllister seems to have terrified S.F. so much that they cannot enter the same room as him!! Does he know too much?? Does he understand too well the way they have turned everything they used to believe in upside down and now they cannot face them? Maybe he knows who the big time smugglers in the IRA and S.F. are including the industrial alcohol brigade!!