Dublin too dangerous for UDA leader

Fianna Fail TD Charlie O’Connor amused many at the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body with his tale of a UDA leader confiding that he was somewhat fearful of visiting Dublin due to its high levels of drug dealing, violent crime and murder. Ahem, indeed

  • Nevin

    Gary, you could argue that he probably understands better than most what it’s like to live in such a community. Unless, he’s one of those ‘leaders’ who’s taken up golf!!

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    I recently heard someone on RTE state that the murder rate in Belfast was higher than Dublin – but found that hard to believe. Wonder if there is a reliable source of crime stats on the internet for both/either jurisdictions.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Just another case of consciousness being raised when the subject in question is not in control — his criminality is invisible, at least to himself, just as an electric eel is immune to its own discharges.

    Nevin, you’ll excuse me if my sympathies for the head hood seem a trifle underwhelming. His biggest problem is likely ne’s not getting a rake-off from the local action.

  • pith

    I’m sure it was all very funny for the boys in the harp and portcullis ties but could we have a little more detail? Like to whom did the supposed UDA leader confide this information – was it to Charlie O’Connor himself? What was the situation is which it was confided? Are you sure we are not in the territory of “Paisley is really nice to his catholic constituents” bollix?

  • Elvis parker

    I suspect a UDA Leader would be well placed to know all about the level of drug dealing in Dublin.

  • Turgon

    Of course a UDA leader would be scared of going to Dublin. Why would he not be? He might for a time not be surronded by a cadre of like minded thugs who help him bully everyone around him and hence allow him to be brave.

    The UDA have always been particularly brave in certain circumstances, usually when armed with weapons and confronting dangerous people like old men at Loughlinisland or those in the Rising Sun bar.

    Their bravery in other circumstances has always been a little more suspect.

  • TAFKABO

    His biggest problem is likely ne’s not getting a rake-off from the local action.

    I suppose he could always join the IRA if he wanted that badly enough, eh?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “I suppose he could always join the IRA if he wanted that badly enough, eh? ”

    Nah — likely he couldn’t stand up to honest competition, even in a dishonest trade — why else would the UDA be so eager to belly up to the public trough?

    Besides, last we discussed this matter, the rackets in Dublin were mainly run by honest, ordinary “decent” criminals, with a handful of Loyalist drug dealers. Unless you have some compelling evidence to the contrary, I don’t believe that status quo has changed.

  • Garibaldy

    Dread,

    Where do the INLA and other nationalist terrorists fit into your scheme of crime in Dublin?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Garibaldy: “Where do the INLA and other nationalist terrorists fit into your scheme of crime in Dublin? ”

    The INLA are bit players in that, just like everything else they do.

    Beyond that, PSF (and, by extenstion, PIRA) are usually accused of being anti-drug vigilantes.

    But, as I said, persuasive evidence supporting arguments to the contrary are always welcome.

  • TAFKABO

    Persuasive evidence?

    How about drug dealers saying that they pay tax to the IRA?
    The last time we talked about this I provided a link to that very thing, but you dismissed it, of course.
    So let’s look at it logically.
    You said the IRA are against drugs, and indeed they have made a big show of punishing small time dealers.
    How come this organisation that is able to collate information on the highest in the land has been singularly unable to take out or punish a high ranking dealer…ever?
    How come when they were killing all and sundry, they never once tried to kill the top men in the Irish drugs trade, bringing heroin into Dublin?

    Nope, the word is that they taxed them, and given that they never once went after them, that seems to fit.

  • TAFKABO

    That naughty co-member of SF, election worker for, and personal friend of SF TD Aengus O Snodaigh, Niall Bennett apparently had a list of criminals Chez Binead…
    In a raid on Bennett’s house the police also found a list of criminals, believed to have been drawn up so that the IRA could target figures who refused to pay protection money. The IRA is believed to have shot dead at least five Dublin criminals in the past two years.

    Sinn Féin have always been very touchy about suggestions that they or the IRA might benefit from “taxing” criminals as that would in effect lower them, albeit by proxy, to the level of the drug-dealing riff-raff in the Loyalist paramilitaries.

    http://www.sluggerotoole.com/archives/2004/12/taxing_time_for.php

  • TAFKABO

    Edmund McCoy, 28, was sitting in a bar at Dunmurry in south Belfast when three gunmen walked in and shot him in the head and stomach on May 29, 2000. McCoy was a Catholic who associated with loyalist drug dealers. Again, the murder was seen as benefiting Catholic drug dealers who paid protection to the IRA.

    http://SpeedyLink.net/6a7

  • Dread Cthulhu

    How about something that doesn’t sound like a gossip sheet, TAF?

    How about something that indicates that PIRA is involved on a corporate level, say, like the IMC reports do for Loyalist organizations?

    Or is the best you can manage the underworld equivalent of Perez Hilton?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    News > 29 Aug 2005

    No evidence of IRA involvement in drug dealing, says head of Garda Drugs Unit Source: Irish Times 29 Aug 2005 p. 5

    Interviewed on RTE Radio 1, the head of the Garda National Drugs Unit has said there is no evidence to suggest that paramilitary figures are involved in drug dealing.

    Det Chief Supt Cormac Gordon said a small number of Irish drug dealers based in Spain and Holland were supplying the Irish market. These dealers were able to source cocaine for around €30,000 per kilo which, when diluted with other substances, would sell on the streets for up to €70,000 per kilo – yielding a 700 per cent profit.

    http://hrbndc.imaxan.ie/directory/news_detail.php?cat_id=&news_id=2239&pointer=60

  • TAFKABO

    Yeah, funny how the same gossip sheet’s were more than sufficient for you to believe the claims about the Loyalists, or am I mistaken in remembering you throwing around the drug dealing claim long before the IMC was even set up?
    Besides which, one of the posts above clearly says that the police believed they were receiving protection money from criminals.
    I guess you hold the IRA to a different set of accountability than the Loyalists, so what does that tell us?
    Can you explain to me why this anti drugs organisation which likes to boast bout being against this evil business has not once used it’s vast resources to go after the top men in the trade, yet has shot bottom level dealers?

  • RepublicanStones

    “For example, with republican organised crime the biggest single organised crime tends to be around excise offences, so if for example we had a significant number of extra excise offences we would expect to see the republican percentage go up. Loyalists, by and large, not exclusively, do more on drugs so if we got a focus on drugs from the referring partners then the loyalist percentage would go up because the different communities groups tend to be involved in different types of activity.”

    “The loyalist organisations have always been much more fragmented and in comparison to the Provisional IRA, for example, there has always been much more criminality for personal gain within the loyalist groups than there was necessarily in the republican groups.”

    “if I am looking at a typical loyalist paramilitary I would probably see much more of the assets derived from crime have been diverted to personal gain, and for some of the republican paramilitaries I would find pro rata probably less of the assets are as visible. Now, the net overall assets may be greater and it is therefore harder to find them, it is a bigger job to find them, but on the loyalist side it is much more fragmented and there are a lot of people out there flaunting their wealth, much more so pro rata than what we have seen in the republican communities.”

    “In the loyalist community, drug dealing is run by the paramilitaries and it is generally run for personal gain by a large number of people.
    So there are a large number of targets there who are all making significant amounts of money.If you go into the republican community, the PIRA, in general, do not do drugs, so you won’t find large numbers, on the same sort of scale, of drug dealers in that community.”

    Alan McQuillan ARA assistant director.

  • TAFKABO

    the PIRA, in general, do not do drugs, so you won’t find large numbers, on the same sort of scale, of drug dealers in that community.”

    Two points.

    Firstly, the IRA don’t just operate in Northern Ireland and Dublin has a thriving drugs trade.
    Secondly, no one said they “do” drugs, rather they tax those who are involved.

    I’ve asked what I consider pertinent questions as to why they’ve never gone after the top people in the drugs trade, preferring instead to shoot the occasional low level dealer.

    Anyone going to address that question?

  • RepublicanStones

    who exactly are the top people in the drugs trade? if you know them, why not give their details to the police? Do you want the IRA to take out south american drug cartels(don’t snigger at the back)or the taliban/afghan warlords who grow poppy farms? Tell me what level of dealer (not so)Speedy Fegan was? after all he imported and had links to the gang responsible for veronica guerin’s death. but then again that was the DAAD.

  • Voice

    In all seriousness I do draw a moral distinction between drug dealers who sell the sort of drugs that are decriminalised in Amsterdam and those that sell those that are habitual and fuel £100 a day burglary and prostitution habits like heroin or crack.

    Those Loyalists paramilitaries who do sell drugs almost all fall within the former category. In fact I would even say that if the paramilitaries did not exist the drugs problem in Northern Ireland would be even worse than it is, like Glasgow, Dublin or Birmingham, heroin would have a permanent presence outside it’s aberrant Ballymena heartland and the general burglary and mugging rates would be higher (to fund addiction). Paramilitaries are actually a deterrent to “inward investment” by British or southern Irish “ordinary decent” heroin and crack dealers because they can outgun them if they crossed paths.

    I guess this might not be a popular view but give it some thought.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “Yeah, funny how the same gossip sheet’s were more than sufficient for you to believe the claims about the Loyalists, or am I mistaken in remembering you throwing around the drug dealing claim long before the IMC was even set up? ”

    You’re mis-remembering in your old age, TAF — the IMC predates my participation on Slugger, iirc. The earliest exchange I can consciously recall discussing Loyalists and drugs was someone explaining to me that the UDA had hoods decked out like American inner-city drug dealers, right down to the velour track-suits and over-priced tennies, right around the time Jim Gray, the Brigader of Bling, aka “Doris Day,” was expelled in March of 2005, about a year and quarter after the IMC was formed in January of 2004.

    And I have set and discussed my standard — corporate involvement, as an organization, in the drug trade from something approaching a credible source, such as the Gardai, the PSNI, the IMC, etc. Your sour grapes that, to date, you’ve been unable to meet that threshold notwithstanding.

    As for DAAD, the street-dealer is the easiest fellow to catch. Being as he’s right there on the corner, he’s visible. He has neither the resources or protection of a major figure, making him vulnerable. Politically, a mass of grunions is better than some fat tuna that the masses never see and never heard of. Throw in that the cops are not going to bust a hump over some two-bit dealer whose death they can file under “gang related” with a shrug, it becomes a win-win-win. The masses see a dead dealer, the IRA accrues a reputation and the police remain quiescent. That makes them politically savvy, but lazy for picking low-hanging fruit.

    TAFKABO: “Firstly, the IRA don’t just operate in Northern Ireland and Dublin has a thriving drugs trade.”

    Which, as of no more than two years ago, wasn’t run by the IRA, per the Gardai.

  • The Dubliner

    TAFKABO, don’t mention the question put to Gerry Adams by the Irish Minister for Justice, Michael McDowell, during a TV debate in 2006: “Why did you get $25 million from Farc terrorists to spend on Irish politics when you knew they were deriving that from selling cocaine to America?”

    Adams was busying talking about the number of people who had died from the illegal trade in Dublin, showing that he was fully aware of the connection between profit from drugs and death when the Minister interrupted him to reveal the Gardai intelligence that Mr Adams and his cohorts had profited to the tune of $25 million – which adds up to an awful lot of death.

    Selling terrorist’s expertise on the international market is part of the PSF/PIRA organised crime cartel; and it matters not how many people die either by drug-pushers like Farc using that expertise to murder or how many die as a result of selling $25 million worth of drugs to inflate PSF/PIRA’s annual profits.

  • RepublicanStones

    dubliner may i have the link to those reciepts that mcDowell has which show the 25million sinn fein recieved. im sure he has them otherwise he wouldn’t have made such remarks. as we all know McDowell is, sorry, was not into point scoring and mudslinging. so no doubt he had irrefutable proof and so it is fact that sinn fein got 25million, and there is a court case pending no doubt.

    ahhh, the link is…..?

  • The Dubliner

    RepublicanStones, I’ll take the word of the Irish Minister for Justice over a gang of self-serving degenerates any day. Did any member of the Irish government refute the Minister’s claim? Did Mr Adams sue for libel despite the allegation being made to his face in the Republic on live TV? No.

  • RepublicanStones

    well how come if McDowell was so sure he didn’t pursue Sinn fein in court or the refer the evidence to the CAB? it was laughed off by every mature person who saw it for what was…political mudslinging. and its funny you mention irish minister and self serving degenerates…..i don’t think im the only one who’ll have a giggle at that one.

  • The Dubliner

    By the way, RepublicanStones, it was also Irish Minister for Justice, Michael McDowell, who told the British CAB about PSF/PIRA’s property portfolio in Manchester, leading to your heroes having £30 million of property assets seized and their pension fund being a tad depleted. But don’t worry, there’s a few hundred more in hidden PSF/PIRA assets where that came from. And we don’t need to mention the £26.3 million top-up from the Northern Bank, do we?

  • RepublicanStones

    Heroes? Sinn fein are no heroes of mine,im a Wolverine man meself. oh and how nicely you completely avoid the last accusation by scurrying to find a factual crime to try and deflect from the bollox political mudslinging you just believe without evidence, without realising that concerns slab murphy, not the whole of Sinn Fein. so its innocent until proven guilty, except for irish republicans. is that your position?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    The Dubliner: “I’ll take the word of the Irish Minister for Justice over a gang of self-serving degenerates any day. Did any member of the Irish government refute the Minister’s claim? Did Mr Adams sue for libel despite the allegation being made to his face in the Republic on live TV? No. ”

    Point of fact: The minister for justice is, pretty much definitionally, a politician, which makes him self-serving, if not a degenerate.

    As for the allegation / question, it is on the same order as “Tell me, do you still beat your wife?” Regardless of its accuracy (or lack thereof), the answerer starts of on the back foot. It is an accusation that Adams was in no position to refute and, rightly, saw little profit going into. Damned good question, tho.

    On a larger canvas, however, a willingness to supply terrorist training is appalling in its own right, clean money or dirty. I am suprised, however, if the provenence of the money was so obviously dirty, why no charges or efforts made to recover the money by either government. Were it the slam-dunk you seem to believe, Dubliner, I would have thought the various and sundry police would have been on it like white on rice. Why the feet of clay, do you suppose?

  • UFB

    “I’ll take the word of the Irish Minister for Justice over a gang of self-serving degenerates any day”

    The maybe Dub you’ll also take the word of former RUC Special Branch chief, Bill Lowry?, who stated in an interview with Daily Ireland that “The Provisional IRA have no involvement with drugs whatsoever” [circa May 4th 2006]

    TAF, regarding your claims the the IRA killed only small time drugs dealers:The IRA allegedly killed Mickey “Moneybags” Mooney, reputed in local press to be “Ulsters first drugs baron”, Brendab “Bap” Campbell, Brendan “Speedy” Fegan, Martin “The General” Cahill and PJ “Psycho” Judge who, if their reputations were true, could hardly be described as minor drugs traffickers?.

  • TAFKABO

    Interesting to see how many times people repeat that the IRA didn’t run the drugs trade in Dublin, interesting because no one is claiming that they did, simply that they extorted money from others who were involved.
    Maybe if people stopped insisting that the IRA didn’t run the trade they might have to address the fact that they tax others who are?

    Dread Cthulhu.
    If I was to provide a quote from a police source saying that the IRA taxed drug Dealers, would you accept it?
    I only ask because I suspect that were I do provide the very thing you say you are looking for, you’d change the goalposts, indeed you’re already doing it by now introducing he rather nebulous concept of corporate involvement

    Another point I’d make is a more general one.

    Why do people talk about the IRA and Loyalists, despite the fact that the Loyalist are more than one organization and there are other Republican organizations?
    Isn’t it more accurate to talk about Loyalists and Republicans, as a whole?

    So tell me this.

    Are Republicans involved in the Drugs trade?

  • UFB

    TAF,

    You claimed yesterday that:

    “How come this organization that is able to collate information on the highest in the land has been singularly unable to take out or punish a high ranking dealer…ever?
    How come when they were killing all and sundry, they never once tried to kill the top men in the Irish drugs trade, bringing heroin into Dublin?
    Nope, the word is that they taxed them, and given that they never once went after them, that seems to fit.”

    Now, if you believe the reputations of both Martin Cahill and PJ Judge not only were they big time drugs dealers but they were among THE top drugs dealers in Dublin. If you further believe that they were killed by the IRA then it kinda negates your two points above doesn’t it?

    As for a police quote confirming the IRA’s alleged involvement in taxing drug dealers I’ve already supplied a quote from one of the most senior Special Branch officers in the North asserting that this was not the case.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “If I was to provide a quote from a police source saying that the IRA taxed drug Dealers, would you accept it? ”

    That would entirely depend upon its provenance of the quote. I thought that would have been clear by now.

    TAFKABO: “I only ask because I suspect that were I do provide the very thing you say you are looking for, you’d change the goalposts, indeed you’re already doing it by now introducing he rather nebulous concept of corporate involvement ”

    The goal-posts haven’t changed, TAFKABO. But, then, neither has you inability to provide a statement equivalent to the IMC report clearly stating that Loyalist formations support themselves through drug-dealing, whilst the IRA supports itself by other illegal means, mainly tax evasion / smuggling, iirc.

    TAFKABO: “Why do people talk about the IRA and Loyalists, despite the fact that the Loyalist are more than one organization and there are other Republican organizations? ”

    Mainly because the other Republican groupings are fringe players, TAFKABO. The UDA and the UVF, on the other hand, weren’t, well, at least not until after the fraticidal battles over drug turf.

  • TAFKABO

    From UFB

    Now, if you believe the reputations of both Martin Cahill and PJ Judge not only were they big time drugs dealers but they were among THE top drugs dealers in Dublin

    What reputation said that Cahill was the top dealer in Dublin? The reputation I heard was that he was into armed robberies and other similar crimes, not unlike the Provos infact.
    But no, you just make something up on the spur of the moment.

    As for a police quote confirming the IRA’s alleged involvement in taxing drug dealers I’ve already supplied a quote from one of the most senior Special Branch officers in the North asserting that this was not the case.

    Oh really?
    Where is this quote, I think I have missed it.

    From Dread Cthulhu

    Mainly because the other Republican groupings are fringe players, TAFKABO. The UDA and the UVF, on the other hand, weren’t, well, at least not until after the fraticidal battles over drug turf.

    Jesus wept, when did these fratricidal battles take place?
    Now the UVF and UDA are involved in turf wars which have reduced their onetime major player status?
    OK, who has died in these fratricidal battles?
    You think you can watch a few Hong Kong action movies and suddenly know what is happening in Northern Ireland?

    Once again any outlandish claim you make up on the spot is expected to be accepted, as long as it is about one side, but you constantly shift the goalposts in terms of what you’ll accept about the sainted IRA.

  • TAFKABO

    Look at this.

    From:A Study Prepared by the Federal Research Division,
    Library of Congress
    under an Interagency Agreement with the
    United States Government
    December 2002

    Two major West European terrorist groups, the Basque Fatherland and Liberty
    organization (ETA) and the Irish Republican Army (IRA) of Northern Ireland have been
    involved in arms and narcotics trafficking in recent years.

    http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/pdf-files/WestEurope_NEXUS.pdf

    I shall sit back and await the tortured reasoning as to why that investigation and report is invalid.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “Once again any outlandish claim you make up on the spot is expected to be accepted, as long as it is about one side, but you constantly shift the goalposts in terms of what you’ll accept about the sainted IRA. ”

    Hardly — you just keep rising to the bait, TAFKABO. I indulged in a bit of hyperbole, so as to get precisely this response out of you, so that I might illustrate a point. A bit predictable, really.

    I don’t think the IRA are saints, I will gleefully and freely acknowledge them as killers, bombers, tax evaders and hoods, just in case you missed me doing so elsewhere and elsewhen. You must not have been paying attention, just as you “mis-remembered” me referring to Loyalist formations as drug dealers prior to having evidence, in the form of the IMC report… funny thing, all that convenient “misremembering…”

    I simply point out that Loyalists, despite the occasional claims to the contrary, dealt drugs on an organizational (i.e. corporate) level. Now, you like to try and tar the IRA with the same brush, but lack the sources. In fact, but UFB and myself have quoted high level police personnel who have averred the opposite. Both were on the record sources, mine Gardai, his RUC. Your best rebuttals pales in comparison, consisting of allegations and insinuations.

    Now, is it entirely possible that the IRA were licensing drug dealers? Entirely, sir. All you need now is a high police official willing to go on the record.

    Now, as for the fraticidal feuds — was I tweaking your nose? Yup. Was I exaggerating? Yes, a special effect for effect. Is there an element of truth to the allegation? Yup.

    The Loyalist groupings have feuded over drug turf, among other things, and have, as a matter of fact, killed far more Loyalist paramilitaries than the Republican paramilitaries — the UDA, for instance, has killed 29 Loyalist paramilitaries (22 internally, 7 others) against 2 Republican paramilitaries, for a near 15 to 1 ratio. The UVF were marginally more effective (41 were loyalist paramilitaries (including 29 members of the UVF itself) against 8 SF civilian political activists and 12 were republican paramilitaries, or about 5 to 1 on paramilitaries, 2 to 1 if we’re generous and count civilian activists along with the paramilitaries), but still seemed to prefer killing their fellow-travellers than armed-force Republicans.

    So, on the numbers, they were fraticidal, were involved in the drug trade and they feuded, both internally and externally. The rest was poetic license and send-up.

    Hell, if I wanted to be incendiary, I’d discuss the UDA’s until recent ties to Combat 18 and Doris’ trips to Thailand…

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Actually, TAF, all I would have is a couple of caveats — the document identifies the groups and then uses “IRA” almost interchangeably, although, to be fair, seeing as all the splinters personnel came from the same pool of people, it would be a bit difficult to sort out exactly which organization — root, branch or splinter — is in the business, given the covert nature of the drug trade. Another is… I dunno… semantic in nature… i’m not sure using coke as currency in a black market is “dealing,” strictly speaking, that doesn’t change that they are, in fact, in the drug business.

    But, given they are only caveats (and minor ones at that, given the cheek and jowl relations to Gerry of at least one of the Columbian trio) all I can do it tip my hat and tip my king.

  • The Dubliner

    “Point of fact: The minister for justice is, pretty much definitionally, a politician, which makes him self-serving, if not a degenerate.” – Dread Cthulhu

    Point of fallacy, actually; which proves nothing other than you have a very low opinion of politicians. Michael McDowell gave up a very lucrative career as a barrister to serve his country – and his country owes him a debt of gratitude for the contribution he made and for his sacrifice. He has now returned to his lucrative career as a barrister, having lost his seat at the last election. So it is clearly a nonsense to claim that he was self-serving when the opposite was the case.

    For your edification, here are the pathological attributes of a self-serving degenerate:

    [i]Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviours as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
    Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
    Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
    Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
    Reckless disregard for safety of self or others
    Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain steady work or honor financial obligations
    Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another
    [/i]

    If that sounds familiar to you it is because it is a list pathological attributes that define a sociopath.

    “As for the allegation / question, it is on the same order as “Tell me, do you still beat your wife?” Regardless of its accuracy (or lack thereof), the answerer starts of on the back foot. It is an accusation that Adams was in no position to refute and, rightly, saw little profit going into. Damned good question, tho.” – Dread Cthulhu

    No, it isn’t. I suggest you properly acquaint yourself with plurium interrogationum. It is a statement of Gardai intelligence that the minister was aware of. There is trick in it and no limit is attached to the replies. Adams did refute it. Of course, he also denied that he is/was in PIRA, so he is known as a liar.

    “On a larger canvas, however, a willingness to supply terrorist training is appalling in its own right, clean money or dirty. I am suprised, however, if the provenence of the money was so obviously dirty, why no charges or efforts made to recover the money by either government. Were it the slam-dunk you seem to believe, Dubliner, I would have thought the various and sundry police would have been on it like white on rice. Why the feet of clay, do you suppose?” – Dread Cthulhu

    You fail to understand the difference between intelligence and evidence. You also fail to understand the bargain between PSF and the governments: keep your nose clean on the political stage and we won’t go after your hidden assets. Any divergence from that is a shot across the bows. That is why the minister only informed the British CAB about one batch of PSF assets: the property portfolio in Manchester. It is also why the minister also said that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness were members of PSF/PIRA’s Army Council when they made the decision to call off their ceasefire and bomb Canary Wharf, yet neither was ever charged with membership or charged with conspiracy to commit murder.

  • The Dubliner

    Incidently, the link TAF provided to a report for the ‘US Library of Congress – Federal Research Division West European Nexus’ makes interesting reading in regard to how PSF/PIRA’s organised crime empire extends into drug and arms trading and selling technical expertise to anyone who will pay for it:

    IRA Activities Links between the IRA and the terrorist narcotics group Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (Spanish initialism FARC) have been suspected for some time. However, a major element of that connection was established in August 2001, when Colombian authorities arrested three IRA explosives experts under suspicious circumstances in Bogota. British intelligence reports have estimated that in recent years the FARC has paid IRA operatives about US $2
    million for training in arms, explosives, and techniques of urban warfare, using offshore bank accounts; since 1998, between five and fifteen such experts are believed to have moved back and forth between Colombia and Europe. In April 2002, General Fernando Tapas, chief of the Colombian Joint Chiefs of Staff, testified to the House International Relations Committee that in Colombia seven IRA members had trained Colombian, Cuban, Iranian, and perhaps Basque
    fighters in the use of arms and intelligence for terrorist purposes. The IRA and FARC also may have cooperated in supplying arms to insurgents in Nicaragua in 2000.

    Because the IRA strongly discourages individual initiative, all such operatives assumedly have the official approval of the organization. Padraig Wilson, a close associate of Gerry Adams, president of the IRA’s political organization, Sinn Fein, is known to have made covert contacts with FARC in Colombia in the past two years. As of October 2002, the three men who were arrested remained in a Colombian prison with no trial date set.

    Such deals offer the IRA two advantages. At a time when the organization is nominally disarming, profits from the Colombian training provide currency with which to tap into the rich assortment of arms available from world traffickers. FARC money may have helped pay for a shipment of 20 highly efficient Russian AN-94 assault rifles that Russian intelligence reported going to the IRA (presumably from corrupt agents in the Russian arms industry or the Russian
    military) in 2001, at about the same time that the three IRA experts were in Colombia. The IRA also is believed to have purchased arms in Latin America recently.16 Colombia offers the IRA an inconspicuous area for developing its own weapons and tactics at a time when the IRA nominally is observing a cease-fire in its home territory. On the other side of the deal, the FARC gains training in terrorist and guerrilla techniques from what is widely considered one of the most effective terrorist organizations in the world. The cost is easily affordable, considering that estimates of the FARC’s annual narcotics income reach as high as US$1 billion.

    Although the links between the IRA and the FARC have not usually constituted direct exchanges of narcotics for weapons, transactions between the two groups have involved both those commodities. The chief income base of the FARC is narcotics sales, and recent IRA payments in narcotics to Croatian arms traffickers (see The Balkan Link) demonstrate that the IRA likely has received narcotics from FARC. The clandestine military training provided to the FARC by the IRA is a form of trafficking that enhances the value of arms acquired elsewhere, and the IRA also may have supplied weapons to the FARC as well: In early 2002, the FARC began using mortars very similar to those designed by weapons expert James Monaghan, one of the three captured IRA agents. According to Colombian authorities, those weapons are a significant upgrade of the FARC’s terrorist capability.

    Thus the evidence strongly suggests that the IRA is at the center of a complex linkage of narcotics and arms trading that includes criminal groups in Europe and narco-terrorists in Latin America. According to this scenario, the flow of narcotics is mainly from Latin America into Europe, with the IRA using narcotics as currency rather than trafficking actively itself. The more complex flow of arms and arms enhancement services moves from European sources such as Croatian smugglers to the IRA, but it also moves from the IRA to Latin America and vice-versa: the IRA’s arms are enhanced by access to FARC testing areas, as the FARC’s arms are enhanced by IRA training and arms shipments. The IRA assistance may have been an attempt to upgrade the FARC’s capabilities following intensification of United States counter-narcotics assistance that began in 2000.

  • RepublicanStones

    wow great reading all right, i don’t think ive seen so many mays, possibly’s, is believed, could have, is thought to, in one p[iece of writing in my life. if this is what is termed definitive evidence then obviously the foopaa the same intelligence services committed with the imaginary WMD’s wasn’t a once off. im sure there are charges going through congress as we speak and gerry and the boys will be standing tall before the man a la george galloway, and we know who was made a fool of then.

  • The Dubliner

    So, you reckon PSF gave free training and technical expertise such as how to make mortar rockets to drug pushers Farc who make up to $1 billion profit a year from selling drugs simply because they love drug pushers too much to spoil the platonic relationship by asking said drug pushers for a handsome cut of their $1 billion in annual profits? You’re a tad on slow side, ain’t ya kid? 😉

  • Mayoman

    Just the IRA learning a little trick from the Brits, who, if you remember, got A WHOLE NATION, hooked on opium and used this as weapon to extort TEA! 🙂

  • RepublicanStones

    ssshhh mayoman were not supposed to say that. i mean nobody knows about coalition troops allowing afghan warlords to trade in heroin today in return for their help against the taliban.that doesn’t suit the western neo-con good guy image. so we’ll just brush that under the carpet shall we?

    oh and londoner, your a tad on the childish side with your pathetic attempts to patronize.

  • TAFKABO

    Hardly—you just keep rising to the bait, TAFKABO. I indulged in a bit of hyperbole, so as to get precisely this response out of you, so that I might illustrate a point. A bit predictable, really.

    Sure…

    The classic passive aggressive’s response I was just joking, sheesh, you don’t know how to take a joke

    I don’t think the IRA are saints, I will gleefully and freely acknowledge them as killers, bombers, tax evaders and hoods, just in case you missed me doing so elsewhere and elsewhen.

    Oh I’ve seen you add the obiligtory condemnation on many occasion, then immediately add provisos and caveats yadda yadda yadda. You’re a sneaking regarder Dread, face up to it.

    I simply point out that Loyalists, despite the occasional claims to the contrary, dealt drugs on an organizational (i.e. corporate) level.

    No, that’s not what you were pointing out at all, you were poitning out that Loyalists deal drugs whilst republicans don’t, the narrative has morphed and the goalposts have shifted, but that was your original point.

    Now, you like to try and tar the IRA with the same brush, but lack the sources. In fact, but UFB and myself have quoted high level police personnel who have averred the opposite. Both were on the record sources, mine Gardai, his RUC. Your best rebuttals pales in comparison, consisting of allegations and insinuations.

    Uh, lack the sources?
    A US congressional investigation and hearing is less of a source than John Alderdice in the IMC?
    Need I remind you that on this very thread you said that all you wanted was something more than a
    gossip sheet?
    Well I provided something more.

    Now, is it entirely possible that the IRA were licensing drug dealers? Entirely, sir. All you need now is a high police official willing to go on the record.

    Heh, you’re coming along nicely. We’ll have you admitting the truth before long, hell, stranger things have happened.

    Now, as for the fraticidal feuds—was I tweaking your nose? Yup. Was I exaggerating? Yes, a special effect for effect. Is there an element of truth to the allegation? Yup.

    See my earlier point about passive aggressive’s being caught out in a falsehood…

    The Loyalist groupings have feuded over drug turf, among other things,

    Could we have a source for that claim?

    and have, as a matter of fact, killed far more Loyalist paramilitaries than the Republican paramilitaries—the UDA, for instance, has killed 29 Loyalist paramilitaries (22 internally, 7 others) against 2 Republican paramilitaries, for a near 15 to 1 ratio. The UVF were marginally more effective (41 were loyalist paramilitaries (including 29 members of the UVF itself) against 8 SF civilian political activists and 12 were republican paramilitaries, or about 5 to 1 on paramilitaries, 2 to 1 if we’re generous and count civilian activists along with the paramilitaries), but still seemed to prefer killing their fellow-travellers than armed-force Republicans.

    This is all just faff, irrelevant to the point at hand, these killing were not over drugs feuds, and slying implying anything to the contrary is disingenuous at best.

    Oh no, maybe you’re playing merry prankster again and just trying to get a rise out of me?
    Why not just type “I know a post that’ll get on your nerves” a few hundred times, that seems to the level you’ve set for yourself.

    So, on the numbers, they were fraticidal, were involved in the drug trade and they feuded, both internally and externally. The rest was poetic license and send-up.

    It’s the way you tell em…