Unloved unionists fear new border with Great Britain…

NOTHING could demonstrate to unionists how little London loves them than this little exchange in the Lords last night involving David Trimble and Lord West (who seemed unaware – despite having served here – that Northern Ireland is part of the UK). There seems to be considerable unionist unease about the eborders scheme, which, from a unionist perspective, will result in an electronic security ring being thrown around Great Britain, while NI is left to take its chances with the Republic. This, the argument goes, will result in people from Northern Ireland being treated like foreigners when travelling to any other part of the United Kingdom. The problem for Westminster is Ireland’s porous border, about which, apparently, nothing can be done – GB fears that illegals enter the Irish Republic easily, cross the border into Northern Ireland without hindrance, which they then use as a jumping point into Great Britain. I’ve copied the exchange below the fold.Northern Ireland: Electronic Border
3.23 pm
Lord Trimble asked Her Majesty’s Government:

What discussions have taken place with the Northern Ireland Executive and the Government of the Republic of Ireland on the impact of the electronic border on the British Isles common travel area.

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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord West of Spithead): My Lords, we continue to work closely with both the Northern Ireland Executive and the Government of the Republic of Ireland on operational policy and legislative issues, including the implementation of the e-borders programme, which is a key part of the Government’s plans for securing our borders.

My Lords, I wonder if the Irish Government have pointed out in their discussions with Her Majesty’s Government that British citizens make up the largest group of foreign nationals in the Irish Republic and that they, together with the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Irish passport holders domiciled in Great Britain, have been accustomed to travelling back and forth between the two states without any formalities ever since the creation of a separatist Irish state. With the e-borders, there will of course be considerable inconvenience to them. Would it not be much better to take the existing informal common travel area and put it on a formal basis analogous to the Schengen agreement that applies elsewhere in Europe? This would solve the problems that arise in practice and relieve the difficulties experienced by the Home Office, which seems to be intellectually challenged by the idea of a land frontier.

My Lords, as was said before, there is a lot of dialogue between ourselves, the Border and Immigration Agency, the UK police, the Garda National Immigration Bureau and the Northern Ireland Executive on these various issues. We carry out a lot of joint operations, and we all believe that the way we are moving forward with two chunks of work—one relates to the Police and Justice Act 2006 and the other to e-borders—are good ways of covering the problems. We know both anecdotally and from taking samples that there are people who either come through the Republic of Ireland, move into Northern Ireland and then come across to the United Kingdom or vice versa. The sample evidence we have suggests that it is a considerable problem, and this way forward will resolve those issues.

Lord Rogan: My Lords, can the Minister assure the House that the same quality of protection against external terrorism will be afforded to citizens of the United Kingdom residing in Northern Ireland as to our fellow citizens who reside in the mainland?

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the quick answer is yes. We are making sure that is exactly what happens.

Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I return to basic Northern Ireland politics after a very statesmanlike Question from my noble friend Lord Trimble. Do Her Majesty’s Government really understand Ireland and Northern Ireland? I think not. They are expelling the people of Northern Ireland—I am one of them; I live there— geographically from the United Kingdom. They are putting an electronic boundary around England, Scotland and Wales, excluding Northern Ireland and packaging it in with the Republic of

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Ireland. Do Her Majesty’s Government really think that that will help political friendship and political progress between these islands given their delicate state? I would love to answer the question. I hope the Minister’s answer is the same as mine.

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I do not agree. The Government do understand Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic and the status of the people there. There is no doubt whatever that, in the interests of the Republic of Ireland, the people in Northern Ireland and the people of the United Kingdom in general, it makes sense to move down this route. On the e-borders area, for example, we have carried out a trial run called Project Semaphore, and in that very small pilot project 1,300 arrests were made for crimes including murder, rape, assault and so on. On a counterterrorist basis, it is better for the safety of all our people. I cannot accept what has just been said about our lack of understanding. There is absolutely no intention, no desire and no wish; it would be contrary to everything we believe in.

Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, will the Minister reply specifically to the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Trimble? Would it not be more optimal to maintain the common travel area rather than hive off Great Britain from our neighbours in both Northern Ireland and the Republic? This is a complex issue. Given the mix of population between the islands, it is absurd to go down the route that the Government appear to be going down.

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, we are maintaining the common travel area, which is recognised by the EU. We are applying a sensible way forward to identify the loophole that existed of people moving in through the Republic of Ireland, into Northern Ireland and then travelling across to the United Kingdom. We know, as I said, from anecdotal and sample evidence that that is a considerable number of people. Similarly, the Crown dependency routes are being maintained. So the common travel area is staying as it is.

Lord Elton: My Lords, do the Government not recognise the enormous symbolism of what they are doing with the map? What will be the security losses of including the province of Northern Ireland with the rest of the United Kingdom instead of leaving it out?

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, there has been mention already of the common land border in Ireland. Those of us who have patrolled and walked along it know how permeable it is. That is part of the issue in terms of the ability of people arriving in the Republic of Ireland to get into Northern Ireland. Nothing that is being done makes any declaration about the status of Northern Ireland. It is for the safety of all the people of these islands that we are doing these things. There is a great deal of discussion going on. I think it is a sensible way forward.

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Lord Trimble: My Lords, does the Minister not realise that, when he spoke a moment ago of travelling from Northern Ireland to the United Kingdom, he demonstrated clearly his lack of understanding of the basic concept?

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, it was a slip. I certainly understand it. As I said, I have served in Northern Ireland. It was rather like the slip that people make when they forget that the United Kingdom is in Europe. It is a slip that is made sometimes.

Lord Lyell: My Lords, will the Minister let me have details of how the projected security measures across the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic will be similar or different to the projected border controls within and without the European Community?

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, perhaps I may come back to the noble Lord in writing on those details.

  • Turgon

    RepublicanStones,

    Evidence of ethnic cleansing? Well many Protestants did leave border areas. Some were also killed in episodes which look very like ethnic cleansing. Killing a protestant shop keeper in Roslea looks rather like an example to me. There is also the undoubted perception in the unionist community that that is what the IRA were at. In things such as ethnic cleansing perception is all important.

    You brought in the “Protestant Catholic and Dissenter” bit into it.

    Describing preople as “taking the soup” is pretty 19th century and insulting by the way. Many people’s religion is important to them and to call changing it in such terms is inappropriate.

    “true republicans do cherish all the children of the nation”.

    So we can agree that the IRA were not true republicans but actually a bunch of sectarian murderers can we? Maybe you and I can get along after all. You see I do not have a problem with people self defining as republicans; throughout my childhood and early adulthood, republican in a NI context meant IRA supporter to unionists (myself included). I am happy to accept that many people who self define as republican now are not actually supporters of the IRA campaign. As such I do not mind you being a republican at all. I just have a problem with people saying the IRA were not sectarian murderers. I do actually think you are modifying your position here. That is something I welcome.

    By the way I do not mean to be condescending and do not pretend to have perfect spelling or grammar but your posts would be easier to read if you used capitals at the start of sentences.

  • RepublicanStones

    so turgon would the loyalist pogroms againts nationalist areas, which was the pre-cursor to the provisionals coming about be classsified as ethnic cleasning. i think we know who can cry loudest and longest about ethnic cleasning here in Ireland and it isn’t unionists. oh and the term ‘taking the soup’ is not insulting, just a term used to describe an actual unfortunate occurrence. i have never said the IRA were devoid of sectarianism, i merely wished to highlight how loyalism was nakedly more sectarian, after all i don’t recall the shouts of “Yabba dabba do any ‘prod’ will do” coming from republicans or how about the lovely “I was walking up the Falls With my fucking tommy gun I grabbed a Taig and told him There was fuck all that could stop me. Then I shot him. And I watched that bastard die.” i do not claim republicanism is free from sectarianism, never have, but its self evident that its not as prevalent among republicans as it is among loyalists. and i first mentioned the part about catholics protestants and dissenters, but you tried to link it to my seperate remark about colonizers. which is not valid. i have not modified my position, maybe i have explained it a little better, and i will try and oblige you with capitals when i have more time on my hands. (minding kids)

  • Turgon.
    “Ethnic cleansing” of Border area protestants?
    I worked in the former Yugoslavia (mainly Bosnia and southern Croatia) during the war there.
    that awful term “ethnic cleansing” was coined in that conflict.
    More people died in Vukovar over a week than died in the 30 years of the Northern conflict.
    Find another term………….

  • Alan Anderson

    “So we can agree that the IRA were not true republicans but actually a bunch of sectarian murderers can we?”

    Turgon, are you only realising that now? At what age? You trully live a sheltered life, surely not even the mupets in Larne still paining their kerb stones in the french colours of liberté believe that the majority of any section of the community believe the PIRA are were ever true republicans.
    Sure flipin heck Irish republicanisims forefathers were PROTESTANT.