“If the IRA were corporately involved in this murder..”

From the Irish Times front page report today, on the investigation into the death of Paul Quinn in County Monaghan

Gardaí believe that a man beaten to death in County Monaghan at the weekend was attacked because he had recently been involved in altercations with a known republican in south Armagh and the son of another republican figure from the area.

And, with former Irish Labour Party Leader, Pat Rabitte, warning of a major political fallout if there was any involvement by the Provisionals, it’s worth looking at a couple of statements in particular. Firstly from DUP’s Jeffrey Donaldson in this BBC report

“If the IRA were corporately involved in this murder, that may mean that the executive is finished in its current form.” [added emphasis]

The other quote to note is in the same report, and comes from the NI Regional Development minister, Sinn Féin’s Conor Murphy.

In contrast to his statement noted yesterday, and repeated in this Irish Times report [subs req], that

“I do not believe that there is any republican involvement in this murder.”

The latest statement from Conor Murphy is

“I am confident that republicans who have been assiduously working on that project – to try and develop a proper and accountable policing service – are not engaged in any other type of activity whatsoever.” [added emphasis]

Meanwhile independent MEP, Jim Allister, has also commented [subs req]

Independent unionist MEP Jim Allister, who resigned from the DUP in March over the decision to share power at Stormont with Sinn Féin, said the Quinn family’s claims about IRA involvement could not be overlooked.

“The suggestion that the IRA killed Paul Quinn requires absolute clarity from the PSNI and the gardaí, with no phoney distinctions being made between ‘organisational acts’ and actions by individual IRA members,” he said.

And from that same report, the SDLP’s Dominic Bradley, MLA, is reported to have linked two other assaults in the area to the Provisional IRA

“The community in Monaghan and south Armagh must work with An Garda Síochána and the PSNI by giving them the information they need to bring these people to justice,” he said.

He believed that the dead man had been threatened by local Provisionals in south Armagh and that the IRA had also been responsible for severe beatings of at least two other individuals in the area.

Adds Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams, on Radio Ulster’s TalkBack today stated

“It will not emerge that the IRA was involved.”

Asked earlier in the interview why he was so certain that no republicans were involved “in any way whatsoever” he replied

“I have talked to one or two people in the area.”

And from the BBC’s Mark Devenport’s blog

Conor Murphy says he’s convinced republicans weren’t involved. But his former colleague Jim McAllister says Conor should have talked to Mr Quinn’s family before sounding so certain.

On the one hand the DUP will argue that they must await the evidence before jumping to conclusions. On the other, those of us who covered the murders perpetrated by IRA fronts like “Direct Action Against Drugs” know how reluctant the authorities can be in declaring clearly that the IRA sanctioned a particular crime when it is not politically expedient to make such a statement.

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  • Just a thought

    I’m surprised that no one has commented on the fact that the Quinn family seem to be represented by leading republican dissident and former SF Assembly member Jim McAllister. It would obviously suit McAllister’s agenda if this was pinned on the IRA, but given the McAllister connection could it be possible this young man was also a dissident and the beating could be related to tensions within those groups?

  • DaithiO

    So why don’t we wait for the inevitable police investigation that Sinn Féin will inevitably ask it’s supporters to co-operate with?

    Meanwhile below this posting there will be hundreds of people who haven’t a clue what happened jumping to the usual conclusions, because it suits their particular political agenda to do so.

    Blah blah ad infinitum…

  • Meanwhile a man is beaten to death, his family accuse the IRA, and wee Jeffrey talks about “corporate” reponsibility as if the Provos held a boardroom meeting to discuss this. Pathetic stuff from Chuckle Brother central but I am sure it will be lapped up by all the usual apoologists for terrorists in government.

  • URQUHART

    Just a thought: “I’m surprised that no one has commented on the fact that the Quinn family seem to be represented by leading republican dissident and former SF Assembly member Jim McAllister. It would obviously suit McAllister’s agenda if this was pinned on the IRA, but given the McAllister connection could it be possible this young man was also a dissident and the beating could be related to tensions within those groups? ”

    Fair point. I think that the main significance of the Jim McAllister involvement is that he knows the SA provo scene very well. If he says that there was provo involvement (I don’t know if he has actually said that) people will take the view that he knows what he’s talking about.

  • I Wonder

    Daithi

    That was prescient of you! 🙂

  • joeCanuck

    This will probably be the first serious test of whether or not all republicans have accepted the primacy of the state, through the PSNI, for law and order.
    Much will depend on the willingness of members of the public giving information needed to bring the brutes responsible for this to justice, whoever they are.
    Given that up to 15 people were involved, it would be very hard to keep all of the identities secret.

  • joeCanuck

    From the Belfast Telegraph:

    Garda believe the attack had not been officially sanctioned by the former leadership of the Provisional IRA in the south Armagh region.

    But they do believe the killers are all former members of the Provisionals, who had set out to demonstrate that they still wield considerable power in the area.

  • Sean

    David
    Off to your well informed opinion again

    With about everything but the Army Council structure removed is it really any doubt that people who are involved in criminality kill each other

  • rob

    Daithi0,

    You don’t know what happened either but you still commented, a young man was murdered and straight away the republican PR maching come out in force…disgusting…

  • rob

    My God Sean,

    You will defend them no matter what won’t you son??

  • joeCanuck

    From BBC News:
    Mr Murphy said his party had been encouraging people in south Armagh to work with the PSNI.

    “We have made a very clear statement that that is the way forward in dealing with these things.”

    This is not exactly the same as calling on people to give any information they have about this particular heinous act to the PSNI.
    I think the DFM better step up to the plate.

  • rob

    joeCanuck,

    Thats wishfull thinking mate, with people like Sean and Daithi0 around they would probably think it was a good thing that happened to the young man..just another criminal you see.

  • Gréagóir O’ Frainclín

    This brutal murder was just plain thuggery. Peanut brained bully boys at it again.
    McAllister was on Pat Kenny this morning discussing the incident. He said it was revenge for about 2 previous altercations between the victim and a relative of republicans.

  • ?

    Jim McAllister seems to know plenty about this. Why doesn’t he go to the police with any information he has rather than throwing about all this speculation on the media?

    This was a brutal murder – plain and simple – by a gang of thugs and criminals.

  • DaithiO

    rob

    My comments were reserved for the whatabouters here who are quick to point the finger, not because they know anything, they know what the rest of us do, and they’ve learned what little they know from tittle-tattle in papers written by hacks that don’t know either!

    I didn’t comment about the sad death of a young man whose family I sympathise with at this time, and furthermore I won’t comment, this terrible incident is clearly a matter for the police.

    Thankfully the days of internment without trial and kangaroo courts are behind us. Sadly it won’t stop people throwing shit, hoping some of it sticks.

  • sean

    How naive or downright stupid of Gerry Adams on Talk Back to rule out categorically the possibility that the people who did this were Republicans.

    Yet more Shinner arrogance that expects people to take Gerry’s word as gospel… maybe once…, but not anymore.

  • joeCanuck

    But Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams today denied republican involvement and called on anyone with information about the murder to make it available to police on both sides of the Border.

    He said he was deeply shocked and claimed the death was linked to fuel smuggling involving criminals. Mr Adams added: “The criminals responsible for this dreadful killing must be brought to justice. I do not believe that there was any republican involvement in this murder.”

    Thankfully that’s a very clear call to go to the PSNI.

  • Rob

    Daithi0,

    If you weren’t going to comment on this murder why did you try and make out that it would be used for political reasons by ohter commenters, and why did you comment on internment, to be honest I wish it would be brought back, just for people who murdered this young man, what do you think?

  • Cuchulainn

    maybe republicans believe if they go back to violence they will get the 1.2 million pound from Margaret Richie!

  • DaithiO

    Rob, I think the death of this young man is a matter for the police. If it was murder then justice should be done.

    Now, if you want to discuss internment or anything else please feel free to e-mail me.

    You are the one talking about the people who “murdered” that young man, so if you know the facts please either share them with us, or tell the PSNI.

    Fair enough?

  • missfitz

    Joe
    No matter how the BBC covered it, Conor Murphy’s call on the radio this morning was clear and unequivocal. He stated he condemned the murder and called on people to contact the Gardaí or PSNI with information about the crime.

    We wont ever free ourselves from our past if we cannot stop associating brutal crimes with political or paramilitary associations. Treat them for what they are, and take a zero tolerance approach to organised crime and criminals.

    Using this as another political tool to try and destabilise our government may be amusing to some, but devastating to those of us trying to live, work and survive here.

  • Rob

    Daithi0,

    Why did you type ‘murdered’, he was wasn’t he, or did he slip and hurt himself. The fact of the matter is, Republicans killed this young man and you are trying to take the responsibilety away from them by putting staw men up.

  • joeCanuck

    Thank’s for letting me know that Missfitz.
    I think it was irresponsible for the BBC not to have reported that.

  • DaithiO

    missfitz

    WELL SAID !!

  • pbtdiyer

    Just the same old story from our politicians. The Assembly Gravy Train has left the station and no one aboard wants to derail it!
    After all we still await a statement from Papa Doc concerning his letter to the Heritage Lottery Fund about the Causeway Visitors Centre. Why are the other Parties not revelling in his obvious discomfort?

  • sean

    Gerry’s “very clear call” for Republicans to go to the PSNI convinces nobody…

    It’s simply cynical political opportunism for the ever elusive Gerry to be seen to be saying the “right thing”…. Lets face it though, what does he know? He’s hardly “on-the-ground” is he?

  • joeCanuck

    convinces nobody

    I take what he says at face value, Sean.
    And, no, I am not a member of SF.

  • Rob

    Missfitz,

    If this murder was carried out by members of the PIRA then its a serious issue, no allegations of trying to undo the peace process will take attention away from this. When Robert McCartney was murdered we heard the same things.

  • Why do so many struggle to understand that IRA terrorists will kill? After all, there is a bloody trail left across the decades proving their lack of respect for human life. The reality which so many shy away from is that the IRA has killed in the past, it continued to kill even as Adams proclaimed “the guns are silent” and it will kepp killing since that is what it does.

    The decision for the DUP is whether they have sufficient morality to abandon power-sharing with the IRA. I believe they will not do this as they have their snouts will and truly plunged into the trough at Stormont. For Donaldson to talk of IRA “corporate” responsibility is truly surreal and evidence just how corrupting this process is. Touch it and you can’t let go.

  • Harry

    So this is the stable situation into which Fianna Fáil would have us believe they are about to step?
    I think not.

  • URQUHART

    DaithiO: “Thankfully the days of… kangaroo courts are behind us.”

    You’d have thought so, but then have you not been following the fall out from Thrusday’s Executive meeting?

    SF top brass may now be wishing they hadn’t opposed Margaret Ritchie the way they did.

    This poor family will be coming under intolerable pressure from all quarters – here’s hoping they are given some space for their grief.

  • Briso

    Posted by Harry on Oct 22, 2007 @ 01:41 PM
    So this is the stable situation into which Fianna Fáil would have us believe they are about to step?
    I think not.

    I believe this happened in Monaghan? FF are already in it, whether they like it or not.

  • The Dubliner

    It’s best to pretend that PSF/PIRA weren’t responsible for this murder. If folks don’t pretend, then they accept that it is okay for a murder gang run your state – and Thomas Murphy is the boss of the Army Council, along with being one of the UK’s richest godfathers in organised crime, and the Army Council is the direct boss of your Deputy First Minister. As Ms Fitz de facto pointed out, these scumbags will revert to violent form if you use a rolled up newspaper to smack their snouts away the state’s pig trough. So stay on your bended knees, keep voting for them, keep the trough filled up, and they’ll only kill a few of you at a time whenever you threaten their vast financial interests. Appeasement is the new black.

  • Sean

    My God Sean,

    You will defend them no matter what won’t you son??

    Posted by rob on Oct 22, 2007 @ 12:02 PM

    Defend them from what? The right not to be convicted on heresay and personal opinion? Yes absolutely its what justice is really all about you know or should we return to the good old days when the accusation was enough to ensure conviction?

  • Dubliner,

    Well said.

  • Cromwell

    “Defend them from what? The right not to be convicted on heresay and personal opinion? Yes absolutely its what justice is really all about you know or should we return to the good old days when the accusation was enough to ensure conviction?”

    Nice to see you’re calling for justice Sean, beats a meathook, cattle-prod, or even an iron bar in South Armagh any day of the week doesnt it……….oh hold on!

  • rob

    Bloody hell!!!

    Was I the only one laughing at Seans comments, I think Cromwell has summed it up nicely.

  • Sean

    Oh so just because it happened in South Armagh it has to be ordered from the highest echelons of Storomont. So the riots in Carickfergus… that order come out of the office of the first minister?

    You people are sad to say the least and its us who should be laughing

  • fourwinds

    Sean – “You people are sad to say the least and it’s us who should be laughing”

    Who? Canadians???

  • Mick Hall

    “For Donaldson to talk of IRA “corporate” responsibility is truly surreal and evidence just how corrupting this process is. Touch it and you can’t let go.”

    David is absolutely correct here and whilst he may not agree with me, republican’s are infected as well as unionists. It is as if the norths politicos are all on group speak, normally reasonable rational human beings start blathering like imbeciles about ‘corporate responsibility’ as if what occurred was not a group of hoods wielding iron bars but some sort of industrial accident.

  • Cromwell

    Oh so just because it happened in South Armagh it has to be ordered from the highest echelons of Storomont. So the riots in Carickfergus… that order come out of the office of the first minister?

    You people are sad to say the least and its us who should be laughing

    No Sean, as usual we’re laughing at you, it did’nt happen in South Armagh, it happened in County Monaghan.
    Maybe you should acquaint yourself with the facts before you launch into one of your usual ill advised propaganda missions.(from canada!!!)

  • Sean

    ahh but it was you who mentioned South Armagh crumby

  • veritas

    I hope that the family get justice and the killers get life.If it is subsequently proven that the provos did it ,it will be denied by everyone in the republican movement as securocrats trying to destabilise the process,or that it was individuals acting without sanction,just like the Robert McCartney case.The chuckle brothers will think of something to stop the whole house of cards from collapsing.Knowing roblnsons infatuation with minutiae they will try to spin it out a la cti

  • I wonder…

    I simply don’t see why a representative government elected by the most overwhelming majority of ordinary, non-violent people should in any sense be jeopardised by the thuggery of a few has-beens – outside the jurisdiction of the NI Courts and the PSNI.

    Those are the people who, like most here, have a genuine horror of this situation and this is something which SF can and have addressed through the utterly unequivocal plea for those who know about this heinous act to go to the Gardai or PSNI.

    Those with a faux horror it must be remembered have a different agenda – which is the espousal of hatred and the detestation of a power-sharing government because and only because they don’t want a Fenian about the place. They don’t give a flying f*ck about the Quinn family.

  • Those republicans that bludgeoned Paul Quinn to death are the people that “don’t give a flying f*ck about the Quinn family” – just like they didn’t give the same about thousands of others, equally brutally murdered over the years.

    I wonder why Sinn Fein has found itself unable to provide the police with information on the identity of those who planned the La Mon atrocity, or perhaps those who authorised the Claudy bombings? I wonder why there are still some fools about the place who fail to comprehend that sharing power with terrorists remains a very foolish immoral and ultimately futile accommodation.

  • UFB

    Before I start this post let be put my feelings on this murder in the most unambiguous language possible.

    This was an appalling act of cowardly thuggish criminality and anyone with any knowledge of those responsible should immediately make that knowledge known to the appropriate police services in order that ,hopefully, the peretrators face the full rigors of the law.

    Is that clear enough for all?, good because no doubt I’m going to be accused of an excuser, denier etc in the wake of this hypothesis.

    The family have said that the IRA were responsible and the usual suspects have come on to vent their spleen, this leaves me with two questions.

    1 The usual suspects have stated that because the family have said that the IRA were involved then it must be. I’ll accept that for arguments sake but the opposite corollary would then suggest that if the family didn’t suggest it then there would have been no IRA involvement. If that’s the case then why do the usual suspects insist that the IRA murdered Dennis Donaldson in the absence of absolutely no evidence to suggest that it did?.

    2. IF the IRA were involved in this murder would it be sufficient to explain away the doubts by suggesting that the murder “wasn’t institutionalised” or that IRA members were involved but that it was “only afewbad apples”?

    Just wondering, sauce for the goose and all that.

    I hope that the murderers of this young lad go to prision for a very long time.

  • Paul

    Nothing about these comments is original or particularly enthusing. The reality is simple. Sectarian/national identity politics are disingeneous. You have to fall into an Orange/Green line.

    We will all be in here 4 a long time to come if we don’t build a non-sectarian alternative. It is coceptually that simple

  • Comrade Stalin

    Dubliner:

    If folks don’t pretend, then they accept that it is okay for a murder gang run your state

    A murder gang ran the Irish state. Another murder gang opposed that state, and what’s more, their political descendents still run the current iteration of it.

    ~75% of the votes in Northern Ireland go to people who either have a paramilitary wing, or who maintain a working relationship with paramilitary-linked individuals. As Paisley said to the police officers at Drumcree, “don’t come running to me when they burn you out of your houses”.

    Is it a democracy when ~75% of the votes are discarded on the basis that the candidates aren’t sufficiently democratic ?

  • Comrade Stalin

    UFB,

    I think the only way out of this is for the IRA to hand the individuals concerned over to the police. Let’s face it, there’s more chance of the Paisley becoming a Free Presbyterian. If this crowd aren’t obeying the order to stand down, then they’re not going to come in quickly or quietly.

    It’s interesting that David Vance has chosen the moment to show up. I’ve watched all the threads about UDA funding, and he wasn’t seen on any of them. I guess venting against the UDA isn’t so important.

  • UFB

    I’ve seen the “Few bad apples” scenario expounded on David Vances blog before. Do you think that he or his readership would accept it in this case CS?.

  • Comrade Stalin,

    Maybe that’s because I have been busy urging Margaret Ritchie to with-hold funding from the UDA and then congratulating her when she did it? There are plenty of ATW threads on that topic and maybe you need to become a little better acquainted with what I say before wittering in glorious ignorance.

    I chose to comment on Slugger whenever I want, on whatever I want. I have commented on the Clash thread for example, but previously ignored other musical threads. Do you see ulterior motives in that as well?

    Some of us have consistently argued that power-sharinf with the IRA is doomed to fail, as well as being morally wrong. I can see from some of the comments on Slugger that when it comes to IRA murder, rose-coloured spectacles inform the vision of more than a few. I’ll leave you to fester as you all pretend that it wasn’t really the IRA behind this – just like it wasn’t the IRA behind the 39 MURDERS between 1994 and 2005. But hey – don’t worry, you can watch me talk about it on Hearts and Minds this Thursday, I’m sure Mick will give it a buildup as usual.

  • The Dubliner

    “A murder gang ran the Irish state. Another murder gang opposed that state, and what’s more, their political descendents still run the current iteration of it.” – Comrade Stalin

    The difference being that one was a legitimate army that fought a war of independence which had a moral basis, a mandate, a reasonable prospect of success and no alternative means of securing is aims, and the other was a squalid sectarian murder gang which fought for political power and private gain within the United Kingdom, having no prospect of securing independence for Northern Ireland, had alternative political means but went for the violent option as a first resort, and had no moral basis for the attempt, since the only outcome to its murder campaign would have been a sectarian civil war between Catholics and protestants in Northern Ireland and an outright refusal by the southern state to intervene, leading to the UN intervening in the ethnic slaughter and building a Berlin-style wall along the murder.

  • The Dubliner

    Correction: …leading to the UN intervening in the ethnic slaughter and building a Berlin-style wall along the [b]border[/b].

  • Alex S

    “If the IRA were corporately involved in this murder, that may mean that the executive is finished in its current form.” [added emphasis]

    Jeffrey Donaldson

    Do the provos pay corporation tax, is there vat on fudge, questions questions?

  • Outsider

    Time for Sinn Fein/ira and the DUP to be removed from the Assembley, there can be no place in government for terrorists or their supporters/apologists.

  • Harry Flashman

    *As Paisley said to the police officers at Drumcree, “don’t come running to me when they burn you out of your houses”.*

    CS if you are going to allege that the First Minister was in some way complicit in violent attacks on policemen it would help if you could at least get some basic facts right first (not a strong point with you in the past I’ve noticed).

    The comment you attribute to Paisley does not date from Drumcree but in fact from 1986 a mere decade earlier and in the context of the situation to which he was responding it can no way be seen to be a threat.

    Following the signing of the Anglo-Irish Agreement there were many loyalist arson attacks on policemen’s homes. Several of these officers approached Paisley privately and asked him whether he could act quietly behind the scenes to stop these attacks, Paisley readily agreed and did what he could to help put an end to the petrol bombings of police homes.

    However some months later the British government acting on the undemocratic orders of a foreign government suspended the Stormont Assembly to which Paisley had been elected, to protest this undemocratic decision Paisley and his collegues decided to continue sitting in the Assembly Hall. The RUC were called and several officers dragged Paisley by the arms and legs and ejected him bodily from the Chamber to which he had been democratically elected. The officers were seen to be laughing as they did so.

    In response to this outrageous affront to the dignity of himself as a democratically elected party leader he reminded the policemen of his behind the scenes help at their request and pointed out, not unnaturally, that such unofficial assistance would not be forthcoming in the future.

    Had I been as humiliated by policemen I don’t think I’d be doing them quiet favours either, however it would hardly be a threat if I pointed this out now would it?

  • darth rumsfeld

    as one who was there in 1986 I can confirm Harry’s version is accurate

  • andy

    yes cops who do their duty deserve no protection from arson. Especially not from people loyal to the state….

    Anyway as I’m sure my kulak-hating friend will further testify that was hardly Paisley’s first dalliance with violence and the threats thereof.

    Also how is it known Paisley had intervened to stop the initial round of arson, if it was all kept private? (this is a genuine question btw, I realise it is possible)

  • Ahem

    I see we’re back to the ould wordless deleting of my posts. What larks! I wonder if the bould Fealty evens knows that his little helpers are up to this helpful e-community policing? After all, *my goodness*, imagine the sinful awfulness of pointing out that the Provos aren’t and never were an army, but were in fact exactly the sort of cowards who’d, 15 to 1, gang up on someone and beat them to death. Thank goodness smears like that aren’t allow to stand.

  • Cromwell

    Sean/Moosey,

    “ahh but it was you who mentioned South Armagh crumby”

    Yeah Sean/Moosey, re-read my post, I mentioned South Armagh in the context of IRA torturing & “justice”, I never mentioned Paul Quinns murder, if thats the best you can do after your ridiculously silly, & frankly embarrassing posts on this matter, just continue making a complete mug out of yourself!
    You probably see yourself as some sort of poster boy for Sinn Fein in Canada, I bet even they see you as a numpty, or better still a patsy!

  • Harry Flashman

    *yes cops who do their duty deserve no protection from arson. Especially not from people loyal to the state….*

    Where in my post did I say that?

    It is not Paisley’s job to protect policemen from arson that happens to be the job of their colleagues but if they’re going to ask him for private favours then the least they can do is not then to publicly humiliate the man in a building to which he had been democratically mandated to attend.

  • Garibaldy

    Harry,

    But the British government had a mandate to close the assembly. So surely Paisley was being anti-democratic?

  • Why don’t we all take a big deep breath folks. None of us knows who murdered Paul Quinn and why.

    If it was sanctioned by the IRA, the Executive will collapse. Simple as that.

    If it was carried out by members of the IRA flying solo, Republicans will need to carry out a vigorous house-cleaning exercise, or the Executive will collapse. Simple as that.

    If Republicans fail to co-operate fully with the police investigation into the murder, the Executive will collapse. Simple as that.

    If, on the other hand, the IRA weren’t in any way involved, or if they help secure the conviction of some of their erstwhile comrades, then we should all learn to stop assuming that any crime that happens in a republican area has something to do with the IRA.

    Step back, get on with your jobs, let the PSNI, Guards and IMC get on with their jobs.

  • andy

    Harry
    sorry i thought of that after posting. You don’t. It was a comment criticising Paisley not you.
    However, I would be surprised if you had extended the same extenuating spirit to similar actions from the nationalist side. OF course that is your perogative.

    Sammy
    You are of course talking sense. If these punters were genuinely ex-IRA, not just still in and acting in an unauthorised manner, what do you think the implications would be?

  • If these punters were genuinely ex-IRA, not just still in and acting in an unauthorised manner, what do you think the implications would be?

    If that is the case – which we don’t know at this state – it would be the real test of the Republican Movement’s commitment to law and order; other people, including their coalition partners, will judge them on the leadership they give in helping to secure convictions for some of their erstwhile colleagues.

    So far, SF politicians are passing any reasonable test; I don’t actually think this is a crisis yet, but it has the potential to become one in a matter of hours.

  • Sean

    You probably see yourself as some sort of poster boy for Sinn Fein in Canada, I bet even they see you as a numpty, or better still a patsy!

    Posted by Cromwell on Oct 23, 2007 @ 10:36 AM

    Actually none of those, I hold many beliefs that are completely opposite to SF’s and have been told many times I am a bad republican till they remember I am Canadian and not a republican at all.

    I just appreciate their point of view in relation to Ireland well except for that whole full blown socialism stuff. Moderate socialism involving caring for people in need and national health care is okay but that all for one and one for all crap never really works out.

  • Cromwell

    Sean,

    I just appreciate their point of view in relation to Ireland well except for that whole full blown socialism stuff. Moderate socialism involving caring for people in need and national health care is okay but that all for one and one for all crap never really works out.

    So you appreciate their point of view except when you disagree with it, which is quite often, possibly then you should be a bit more circumspect when it comes to cheerleading their actions.

  • Sammy,

    You are profoundly wrong.

    The people of Cullyhanna appear to know who may have carried out the brutal murder of Paul Quinn. The family believes it was the IRA, the same IRA whose publicity department sit in Government. This is the fundamental problem with putting terrorists in Government, they just can’t help doing what comes naturally and for you to suggest that if it was a gaggle of south Armagh IRA hoods were responsible, it’s not about “house-cleaning” it is about removing the IRA from government, something peace processors shy away from since that it the raison d’etre of the whole damned process.

  • The people of Cullyhanna appear to know who may have carried out the brutal murder of Paul Quinn.

    So people from Cullyhanna often share their political thoughts with you, do they David?

  • I wonder…

    David Vance

    You live in the same village as did Robin Jackson, the notorious sectarian killer.

    Why did you not report his activities to the RUC?

  • tweedledee

    Sammy,

    So people from Cullyhanna often share their political thoughts with you, do they David?

    Be fair. He said “appear” and “may”.

  • POL

    David Vance.

    Show us the evidence David.Obviously with you around theres no need for a justice system, Guilty before charged is obviously better for you than innocent until proven guilty.Bring back internment but only for dem pesky taigs eh!

  • Sean

    Cromwell you want me to condemn them for an action no one has proven they carried out…….just because you want it to be that way! Catch yourself on I don’t let anyone do my thinking for me least of all you! Which is why I dont let Sinn Fein do it either

    Show me some proof other than wishfull thinking of the prodiban sock puppets and we will talk

  • Jo,

    Try and stay on topic. You have no idea where I live and I have no interest in what you think.

    Sammy Morse,

    I refer you to Victoria O’Hara and Clare Neilly’s articles in the local press, for some reason the family think the Provos done it but then I guess they are biased, right?

    Never mind, I hear Willie Frazer has come to their rescue.

  • Turgon

    There is much talk here about evidence of whether or not the IRA were involved in this murder. We need to be careful what we mean when we talk about evidence and how this evidence is construed.

    I am not a lawyer but I am aware that the criminal standard of proof is beyond reasonable doubt. That is clearly the correct standard of proof required before anyone is convicted of a crime. Indeed should those alledged to be guilty of this murder ever stand trial that would, entirely appropriately, be the standard required to convict them. The reality is, however, that there are historical precedents for it being extremely difficult to achieve convictions of terrorists due to problems such as witness intimidation etc.

    The standard of evidence by which we judge whether or not the IRA was involved in this killing may, however, be different. To decide that an organisation is behind such a murder may not require such a standard of proof. Since the IRA are meant to have gone away and no longer be a threat to society then it is rerasonable for a standard of proof such as balance of probabilities to be used. Some might even suggest that in view of the history of terrorist criminality in South Armagh and neighbouring areas of RoI it is up to the Republican movement to quite convincingly demonstrate that the IRA was not involved. It is biazzare to say the least to have a party in government with inextricable links to people who may have been involved in this murder not to mention many others.

    In view of the allegations and the history of South Armagh’s troubled past the fact that it is reported that the residents of Cullyhanna are blaming the IRA is evidence. It is not yet conclusive but I would submit that it is enough to make people extremely suspicious that the IRA were involved.

    As Rubicon has previously suggested on another thread Conor Murphy’s extremely rapid denial of republican involvement may be a way of telling people what not to see and so may actually be a device to prevent local people contacting the police with further evidence of IRA involvement.

    I would, however, not be at all surprised if the police come under considerable pressure to not find IRA involvement or at least to not comment on it. The sight of Jeffrey Donaldson et al. potentially preparing the ground for saying this episode is not relevant to DUP involvement with SF in government is quite incredible; and as others have said, shows how some will adopt positions utterly antipathetic to those they so recently adopted in order to keep themselves in government.

  • I wonder…

    DV,

    If you’re going to allege that the people of Cullyhanna – to a man or woman – may know about who killed this young man, you must expect an question about whether you knew about the murderous activities of a man who lived in the village which you provide as your address in your contributions to the News Letter.

    Its reasonable to assume – by the standard that you’re applying to the people of south Armagh – that you, in your turn, knew about Jackson’s activity and therefore, why won’t you answer my question?

  • Jo,

    Because it is;

    a/ Inane.
    b/ Irrelevant.

    I don’t comment here often and when I read the drivel you pour out on these threads, I remember why. On the other hand, many others here make serious points so perhaps it is unfair to Slugger by the dross you posit on it.

  • I wonder…

    You’ve refused to answer twice.

    I’ll be charitable and conclude, be it ever so unlikely, that you don’t know about Mr Jackson’s activity. In that case you’re like the people of Cullyhanna, who, contrary to the sectarian assumption you make, are equally unknowing of who was responsible for the Quinn murder.

    I’ll leave it to others to make whatever deductions they want from your refusal to respond to the consequences of the things you say.

  • Sean

    In view of the allegations and the history of South Armagh’s troubled past the fact that it is reported that the residents of Cullyhanna are blaming the IRA is evidence. It is not yet conclusive but I would submit that it is enough to make people extremely suspicious that the IRA were involved

    I have not seen where any residents of Culluhanna say the IRA were involved could you provide a link turgon

  • andy

    Turgon
    Isnt what you’re saying a bit close to the idea that the republican movement have to prove a negative? which i dont think is realistic

    I am sure the family views of PIRA involvement are honestly held, and some other asoects of the case point to their involvement. Not conclusive proof though I would have thought.

  • Comrade Stalin

    David Vance, I merely observed that the issue obviously didn’t get you excited enough to come over here and troll on Slugger, in the way that you are regarding this issue.

    But hey – don’t worry, you can watch me talk about it on Hearts and Minds this Thursday, I’m sure Mick will give it a buildup as usual.

    Still taking money from the BBC despite your criticisms of that organization. I’m glad to see your principles are intact.

    Harry Flashman,

    The point still stands, that the DUP are the same as Sinn Fein. The comment in question clearly sends out the message that Paisley won’t intervene if someone’s life is in danger. Not only is this granting sympathy to terrorism, it’s a failure to support the rule of law. Both of these in today’s terms would warrant a removal from power, and call into question the DUP’s support for the rule of law.

    It’s illuminating that Paisley was able to stop attacks. Does that mean that he talked to terrorists ? Were there situations where Paisley did not intervene to use that influence to stop other attacks ? This seems to open a whole can of worms.

    It is not Paisley’s job to protect policemen from arson that happens to be the job of their colleagues

    Does that apply to Gerry Adams ?

    Turgon:

    I am not a lawyer but I am aware that the criminal standard of proof is beyond reasonable doubt.

    I’d love to see the IRA bringing a libel/slander case.

    I wonder,

    Don’t count on getting a straight answer from David Vance. He is a troll.

  • Turgon

    Sean,
    I can only report what has been said in the press, the Belfast telegraph contains multiple refrences to it:-http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/

    Andy,
    I have been careful not to demand that the republican movement prove a negative. In this case, however, rapid and obvious cooperation with the police by SF members and politicians would probably prove the negative quite easily if indeed the answer is negative.

  • Comrade Stalin,

    Is this the standard of debate here? The trolls on Slugger are legion, hiding behind pathetic assumed names and they do nothing to broaden debate. However that is Mick’s issue, not mine. I will comment here as and when I see fit, and if Mr Slugger has an issue with this, he knows my email address. For some reason, he doesn’t seem to have your hang-ups with my presence!

  • andy

    Turgon
    Yes I appreciate you had phrased yourself carefully. I wasnt having a pop just wanted you to explore the idea – which you have now done. IMHO they are doing what you say by calling on people to co-operate. I would doubt (but would not be sure) they have info which is not available to mi5 / whatever they call special branch nowadays/ military intelligence

  • Turgon

    Andy,
    Whatever SF leaders or others know, their assistance of the enquiry in a very public fashion would be more useful than blanket statements such as Conor Murphy’s; if indeed they do want to help the police enquiry.

    If leading SF members very publicly went to the police and stated (clearly in private) whom they suspected and what they had been told etc., this would send a clear message that SF genuninely wanted people to go to the police. That would relieve some of the suspicion which Rubicon has pointed out that Murphy’s comments are actually an attempt to prevent rather than procure help for the police.

  • Sean

    Apparently the Gardai know exactly who they were and they are calling them former IRA so what exactly do you want? the Police know the names and do you really believe if the names came from Adams that would lead to convictions? Maybe in the old Diplock courts but then their standard of proof was non-existant.

    Plus how exactly do they compel someone to testify?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    If indeed the Provies were involved in this, as looks to be the case, that’s it as far as I’m concerned regarding SF running the government of my land. I supported the DUP going into government with SF and sharing power with them, but if they can’t control their motley crew of drug dealing, alcoholic, pimping parasites in the RA, then they have no place in the government of any civilised country, regardless of what that means for the “peace process”…

  • 0b101010

    “I supported the DUP going into government with SF and sharing power with them, but if they can’t control their motley crew of drug dealing, alcoholic, pimping parasites in the RA, then they have no place in the government of any civilised country, regardless of what that means for the “peace process”…”

    Don’t be daft. With both the political cover and any threat of physical retaliation removed, the remnants of the army council can no more control the hyenas out in the wild than the UPRG could ever control the similar drug-dealing, murdering thugs they claim to ‘advise’.

    Murders are murders, murderers are murderers and crime should always have been handled for what it was, instead of the political and nationalistic cover all sides were more than willing to hide behind.

    If MLAs ordered someone murdered, feel free to charge them and lock them up forever — that’s the way real grown-up countries are meant to work — but quit threatening to take your political ball home crying to Mommy Westminster every time a republican or loyalist happens to do something horrific.

  • andy

    Turgon
    I appreciate you are trying to find a positive way forward but I respectfully disagree. I think going to the pSNI would be viewed as a publicity stunt by some and a atacit admission of involvmeent by others.

  • I Wonder

    “Don’t count on getting a straight answer from David Vance.”

    I never have.

  • barnshee

    1 The murder gang uses “acquaintances” to entice the deceased to his death.

    2 These acquaintances were also beaten –presumably to make them co-operate?

    3 These acquiantances know who the perpatrators are?

    Why are the perpetrators still walking about?
    Who is pressuring who to protect them?
    If the victims are to frightened to identify the perps -what does that say about South Armagh?
    what does that say about N I?