First Minister contacts Prime Minister

It’s not yet on-line but online here for today [RealPlayer file. Live report 8mins 20 secs in], in his live report from Stormont on BBC NI’s 6.30pm Newsline programme, Mark Devenport reported that the First Minister, the DUP’s Ian Paisley, has contacted the UK’s Prime Minister Gordon Brown to seek an assurance that there would be full support from No. 10 wherever the investigation into the killing of Paul Quinn led. He also quoted “one source” telling him that the killing was “not sanctioned”.. although he emphasised that the investigation was at an early stage. Adds The BBC now reports that contact, and the First Minister’s comments, echoing mostly the statement Fair Deal pointed to in the comments zone below.

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  • joeCanuck

    Ah Pete, but isn’t the fudge already in, as you have suggested in another thread?

    corporately involved

  • Paul

    Why so quiet? Where are the bloggers and twisters when we reach crisis number 61,000,002?

    The Assembly will always sit on a knife edge and sectarian politics will be needed to stir the masses.

    Surely we need to start thinking about a non-sectarian alternative. Are people not really fed up with the triteness of sectarian/national identity politics?

    Surely to goodness there must be 20% of the electorate who want some sort of non-sectarian alternative, or am I delusional.

    It will go on like this until we swap fear/prejudice and myopia for a healthy alternative.

    slan, bout ye and other linguistic yahoo

  • fair_deal

    Pete

    FYI DUP officers statement on Quinn murder
    http://www.dup.org.uk/Articles.asp?Article_ID=2858

  • Rubicon

    Pete – I expect you’d like this thread to discuss the ‘principles’ of “no guns in government” and that’s fair enough. To me – it’d be a waste of breath. The line has been drawn – this is about “sanctioned” murder or not “corporate” murder.

    Indeed! I suppose this peace process was always going to get us here. Far from SF attempts to whitewash and legitimise the past while pointing the fingure of blame elsewhere – what they can’t quite manage to do is keep their dogs on a leash. Instead – they occasionally have to let them out for a bit of blood letting.

    It is these animals that are the so called heros of the Irish freedom struggle. Their actions now are as heroic as they were then. But “then” it was legitimate and now it’s not.

    Hmmm

    Dealers in this sophistry may get their fingers burned. This emperor seems to be wearing little.

    And what of Mr. Murphy’s line that “Republicans weren’t involved” but the public should assist the Gardai and PSNI? What does this mean to witnesses?

    Does it mean, “If you saw a republican – you didn’t!”?

    Yet, the sad facts remain; a young man who dared to challenge the local Mafioso and who drove a truck for living across border areas that Mafioso control and charge for the privilege has been beaten to death.

    Whether “sanctioned” or a “corporate decision” or not it is those that prospered on conducting ‘business’ this way that are in government. Have a go at Paisley et al if you will. God knows their own associations are bad enough to deserve a roasting.

    Those who vote SF however might reflect on this genie now out of the bottle. Whatever social agenda SF speaks to that makes them worth voting for – with it comes gangs of henchmen determined to stay in control of “their” patch for money and power. Is there reason to reflect? I suspect for most there isn’t – Paul Quinn, beaten and then left to die in pain is just “exuberance”, not sanctioned, not corporately identifiable and not done by “republicans”.

    Perhaps the SF beatification of its “volunteers” can be associated with their actions – now and then. They never were more than this.

    Its not the assurances that Paisley may be seeking that cut ice here. It’s clear a corporate decision needs identified to upset the political train he’s joined. While I might find it amusing to see the trust Paisley now gives the “Corporate PIRA” – it remains a side show.

    A young man was brutally murdered by associates of SF. The methods are little changed from the past but now we are told they have no political cover?

    Time will tell. Is Murphy’s statement one that warns against informing or one that encourages it? Do SF supporters accept this action – or reject it?

    Pete – pick on the political protagonists if you want but the rot is in the people that find this type of action acceptable – or fail to have the courage to contradict SF party line.

  • harry

    would i be too cynical to think, that the cops on both sides of the border will be under huge pressure not to find any provo involvment.

    that this will be a huge let off to Fianna Fail and the DUP. i am sure the DUP could not walk back into power with SF if they waLK on this.

    so my prediction is that cops will not find any republican involvment. this will suit all political sides.

    and of course the “criminals” will be able to continue silencing anybody who are not doing what the leadership want.

  • Rubicon

    Harry – “and of course the “criminals” will be able to continue silencing anybody who are not doing what the leadership want.”

    I suspect this murder may not be “what the leadership want” – but it is what they get from what they have sewn.

    What you won’t get is many informing on “republicans” since SF (without any investigation) can say none were involved. Contradict that and … get a bullet in the head, be beaten to death or just leave – all depends what mood they’re in.

    There’s no need to postulate a multi-state conspiracy to keep a hold on this. SF’s crew are on top of this one – and nobody knows how to keep a croppie down better!

  • hercules

    Powerful stuff Rubicon and difficult to disagree with.

    If it was as you’ve said:

    ‘Yet, the sad facts remain; a young man who dared to challenge the local Mafioso and who drove a truck for living across border areas that Mafioso control and charge for the privilege has been beaten to death.’,

    then there is a case to answer.

  • Rubicon

    Hercules – I fear there will be no case. Mr. Murphy has stated no “republicans” were involved. Past experience suggests that the best efforts of the police will not be able to challenge this. Those who think they might give it a go will need to reflect on the long list of people now 6 feet under – and one yet to be buried.

    Yet – don’t believe there exists a queue of the intimidated – it hasn’t existed in the past, it doesn’t now and there’s no sign of it happening in the future. Next time out the “tut-tut-ers” shaking their heads and sympathising with the family’s loss – will return to the polls and vote the same way again.

    Meanwhile SF issue cover – “no republicans were involved”. Few will fail to get the message.

  • Pete Baker

    Rubicon

    These days I’m just content if the conversation stays broadly on topic.

    But, in line with your own argument on this, I think, the denials by the most senior SF representatives – of any “republican” involvement whatsoever – need to be noted when someone is briefing about whether or not the killing was sanctioned.

    After all, when did “criminals” require sanctioning for such an action?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Rubicon

    “A young man was brutally murdered by associates of SF.”

    It’s far too early to make so bald a statement as this.

    What, for example, constitutes an “associate” of SF?

    It is, for example, widely believed that many of the people in charge of illegal rackets in south Armagh today were active IRA volunteers in the 1980s and early 90s. Many have never resigned (or whatever it is you do) from the IRA, but nor have they taken an active role within the IRA for the better part of a decade and a half. Some have, however, been actively involved in criminality and in acts of violence associated with that criminality – much as you’ll find with organised crime the world over.

    Meanwhile another branch of the old provisional republican axis, Sinn Féin, has spent the same period developing its political strategy, culminating in getting their bums into ministerial Skodas.

    I suppose the issue going forward now is this: what are we to make of the relationship today between the Slab Murphys and the Martin McGuinnesses? (ie former comrades whose paths have in reality long since diverged, but who have not yet found the coursge to admit it yet.)

    How long before SF have their De Valera moment and definitively, ruthlessly turn their backs on these old, timewarped comrades? Not long, I’d say.

    Perhaps the DUP should think of letting SF have a crack at a justice ministry after all?

    I mean, anyone who knows their Irish history (Broy’s Harriers anyone?) will understand that probably only a SFer can clean up the border areas.

    With FF as a wildcard for the future, of course.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Pete

    Eh?

  • Rubicon

    Pete – “sanctioned” means nothing, the DUP know it and can stay on course through this. However, the fact still remains that SF have prejudiced this investigation by their statements. Who could fail to get the message from a body not yet cold?

    Couldn’t SF have kept their trap shut? Sure they could have – but they decided not to. Why?

  • Mr Adams once said that..

    “You cannot be a criminal and a Republican activist. You cannot be involved in any criminality and involved in republican activism.”

    To such a delusionist, the murder of Paul Quinn cannot have been carried out by republicans.

  • TAFKABO

    Am I the only one worried that we could see all the progress we have made go down the drain because of some tenuous links between some criminals and the present day Sinn Fein which is clearly committed to making this process work?

    How many times do they need to prove themselves?

    We’ve come too far to throw it all away so easily.

  • Rubicon

    Billy – I don’t often disagree with you but on this one I think you’ve got it wrong. To me, SF are providing cover by stating no republican was involved. This statement means anyone who might know otherwise will be challenging the “big guns” – when we can already see what happens to those that challenge the local head honchos.

    The SF bloggers were out yesterday criticising anyone who made any kind of assumption on this case. Fair enough – leave it to the dogs in the streets to know – but – what they didn’t say was that their own MP, Minister and leading SF figure in S. Armagh was equally as prejudicial – but with that statement comes a history of this kind of treatment for those that disagree.

    Murphy has communicated. The message will be understood.

    End of.

  • Pete Baker

    Billy P

    Perhaps not the best example to chose..

    Or perhaps he is..

    Rubicon

    I don’t disagree with your argument, I think. The original post is just noting what has happened/what’s been said.

    As for why they didn’t keep quiet.. possibly the same reason they re-announced the “threat from dissidents” – combined with Ahern’s vague statement – They think the tactics used in the past, and the complicity of others, will see them through.

    They may be right.

    And there’s little to no consideration involved of the actual investigation.

  • Rubicon

    TAF – don’t you think the progress deserves more from SF? Couldn’t their new found trust in the police persuade them not to prejudice the investigation of a brutal murder? Apparently not.

  • joeCanuck

    “SF have prejudiced this investigation by their statements”

    And if they had said nothing Rubicon. What then?

  • Frank Sinistra

    Pete,

    I don’t think it was a reannouncement of a previous threat, according to the report the police visited five councillors on Sunday night to advise them of the threats.

  • Pete Baker

    Frank

    The police always refuse to discuss the personal security of any individual.

    The re-annoucement refers to the point noted here.

    Perhaps it is, again, purely coincidental..

  • Rubicon

    Pete – no doubt the “threat from dissidents” has been a well played card. McAlister speaking on behalf of the family surely makes this a tempting play. However, in this context it just makes the involvement of PIRA “freedom fighters” in the brutal murder of a young man more clearly identifiable.

    Wasn’t the “dissident card” something to do with “we’re more humane then them-uns?”.

    Yeah – right!

    SF are definately more effective – I can’t deny that.

  • TAFKABO

    Rubicon.

    At this stage I don’t see how they could have done any more than they have. As for their statements prejudicing the investigation, please elaborate.

  • Frank Sinistra

    Another factor that should maybe give people pause for thought is some reports mentioned the Garda have asked the PSNI for details on the lorry transporting illegal diesel that was set on fire outside Lisburn.

  • Rubicon

    Joe – I’m not saying that they should have said nothing. What I am criticising is that they denied “republican” involvement in a brutal murder. Why did they do that? How could they know?

    At best, you can say they didn’t know and didn’t believe a “republican” of the SF variety could possibly do such a thing. I think few in South Armagh would recognise such an interpretation.

    BUT – even if this belief had any credence – why not subject it to evidence put forward to a court of law? Why not allow any witness come forward without being tainted as challenging a SF minister?

    SF could have just asked for co-operation with the police. They didn’t.

  • david

    The BBBC are reporting that Mr Quinn was the driver of the fuel smuggling lorry, set on fire last week.

    They also say he was lured to the remote spot on the promise of a job transporting smuggled fuel.

    Certainly seems to have been a fall out among fuel smugglers

  • parci

    Rubicon,
    how do you arrive at the conclusion that this crime is in anyway related to SF MLA’s doing their jobs at Stormont?

    Why the fuck should SF be held responsible, or even put in the frame?

    This is gangsterism, exactly the same as UDA gangsterism and Drug Turf Wars in Dublin.

    SF have said they are criminals, and urged ppl to go to the PSNI. End of. Why is this even a story?

  • Rubicon

    TAF – my point isn’t what SF could have done more – but what they should have done less.

    Don’t you see the warning issued that will taint this investigation and prevent a dozen or so brutal dogs from ever facing justice?

    Would a murder elsewhere warrant any non-SF politician issuing a denial that anyone of his supporters could possibly be involved be credible or acceptable? Of course not!

    Murphy is no fool. He communicated a message.

  • TAFKABO

    Rubicon.

    No, I don’t see it.

    I think where we can agree is that Murphy is no fool, and only a fool would repeat the mistakes of the McCartney case.
    Sinn Fein paid a high price for their mishandling of that situation, I think they’ve even more to lose now by doing the same again.

  • Rubicon

    Parci – you ask why this should be a story?

    What SF MLAs get up to in Stormont is fine – it’s what their associates get up to in out-houses in Monaghan that raises this issue. SF MLAs can talk about human rights all day – but doing something about it isn’t their game.

    Instead, without any evidence, “republicans weren’t involved” and this statement is issued on behalf of all those who elected SF MLA’s.

    Now – a good republican like yourself will know what it means to those that might know otherwise.

    I’m glad you describe this murder in the terms it deserves. Now – can you please encourage the people to co-operate with the police – without issuing statements that prejudice that co-operation?

    I expect not 🙁

  • PeaceandJustice

    Did the Sinn Fein IRA terrorist group ever formally announce the end of telling lies? The Bogside Butcher has admitted to telling lies about his involvement with the SF IRA death squads. Is it still OK to tell lies as long as it’s for the ‘struggle’? Also, what is SF IRA’s position on fuel smuggling?

  • Rubicon

    TAF – so called “republicans” were involved here. McAlister’s involvement may be politically opportune but it’d have no worth in S. Armagh if it was his associates behind this murder. This is clearly a provo action – with badges or without. It is these people SF want us to honour!

    You refer to McCartney – are his murderers convicted? No! Did SF deny republican involvement? Yes!

    So – sit yourself in the Short Strand or in South Armagh – imagine you’re a witness and then tell me Conor Murphy’s statement encourages you to go to the police.

    Jesus wept!

  • sammaguire

    To avoid confusion with FF The Republican Party in future years should we now start referring to SF associates as Smugglicans rather than Republicans?

  • joeCanuck

    I don’t see it either, Rubicon.
    If they had not denied that republicans were involved (and I sure hope they checked with someone), then there would be people on here screaming “See, they haven’t denied it; that proves without any doubt that the PIRA did it”.

    Sort of “Damned if you do, damned if you don’t”.
    I’m confident that we will see arrests in this sickening case.

    David, I hope you’re not somehow implying that , because this man might have been involved in criminality, that then he got what was coming from other “aggrieved” criminals. Shame on you if you are.

  • Rubicon

    How about this for a statement from Conor Murphy?

    “I do not believe people who supported our struggle could commit or co-operate with the brutal murder of Paul Quinn. Those that did this deed did wrong and committed a heinous act of cruelty on Paul and his family. Whether past supporters of the republican struggle – or not – I can assure all persons with evidence that they have my support in bringing it to the police. The murderers of Paul should have no part in Ireland’s future”.

    Something along the lines of the above would be fine. BUT this is not what was said – or inferred. Instead, Conor tells us, “republicans weren’t involved”.

    That’s right Conor – sure aren’t you the man and god himself!

    Politics is about reading between the lines. Conor could have encouraged co-operation with the police without telling them who wasn’t involved. He decided not to.

    Joe – nobody requires SF to deny criminality within their ranks – unionists have a fair number of criminals themselves. In this case a statement was made that will engender fear. Conor had no evidence on which to base his statement but those who should and should not be reported have been identified.

    Simple then – politics moves on – Conor’s mates still earn an illegal living and we’re all happy.

    Not if you’re Paul’s mum – and not if you think this sophistry can’t visit you next. Contradict Conor and see what you get – what else is Paul’s murder to demonstrate?

    SF have this right – they know no one will give evidence against “republicans” – sure – they weren’t involved! Didn’t Conor tell you so?

  • joeCanuck

    I’m not so pessimistic, Rubicon. Let’s see how it unfolds. As I said, I’m confident there will be arrests (for whatever my confidence is worth) and, hopefully, convictions with very long prison sentences (there was a 22 year sentence last week).

  • Billy Pilgrim

    David Vance

    “You cannot be a criminal and a Republican activist. You cannot be involved in any criminality and involved in republican activism.”

    Not that I want to go interpreting Gerry Adams’ statements or anything, but I should have thought the sense of this statement was pretty clear – that those engaged in criminality forfeit their right to be regarded as republicans? And that therefore those who killed Paul Quinn have no right to expect any cover from “republicans”, regardless of their politics or whether they were in the IRA?

    (As opposed to your rather wrong-headed interpretation that he means a crime isn’t a crime if it’s committed by a Republican – though I think Mitchel McLaughlin came perilously close to saying that once, didn’t he?)

    Rubicon

    “To me, SF are providing cover by stating no republican was involved. This statement means anyone who might know otherwise will be challenging the “big guns” – when we can already see what happens to those that challenge the local head honchos.”

    Maybe so, but I suppose it’s hard to know what SF are supposed to do. They had to move quickly to distance themselves, so as to protect the political institutions. However, as you rightly suggest, this might have problematic consequences on the ground. I honestly don’t think this is something SF intend, though I don’t suppose they care all that much about it either. They’re just protecting their own position, without a thought for anyone else’s. Politicians are all the same.

    Which is why I’m thinking that clearly at some point, something will have to give. SF, political class of the provisional movement, seem to be fast reaching the stage where their old comrades are becoming an obstacle to their political progress. Which is why I referred to a De Valera moment.

    Of course, they might be emotionally unenthusiastic about turning their backs on their old comrades – Pete rightly points out Adams’ tribute for the bould’ Slab, which reads like a football chairman’s “vote of confidence” in his manager – but all I can say is: just you wait and see.

    Slab and co. would be wise to read up on Broy’s Harriers and De Valera’s emotionally unwilling but politically emphatic destruction of the IRA, and not assume that SF will remain loyal to them forever.

  • Outsider

    Sounds like Paisley has made up his mind already and is prepared to give the ira the benefit of the doubt. The police investigation will lead to no convictions and Westminster will ensure that the ira does not get the blame for this.

    People will deam the cover up of this death as a necessary evil for the greater good, one has to ask though, how many more necessary evils will the people of NI have to endure?

  • parci

    rubicon/outsider
    I sincerely hope the community will deliver up the murderers, and this death will be a final defining moment; because we can’t have the institutions held to ransom by the likes of a small number of degenerates.

    The whole of community in norn iron need to come together and find a way of shutting down these criminal networks.

    The fact that ex-IRA men may be involved, as well as UDA men involved in similiar crimes is a by-product and legacy of the troubles.
    The centre, ie Stormont needs to be strong and hold its nerve, and adopt zero-tolerance.

    I think sadly, its going to take more time for events like the murder of this kid, to be part of the past.
    one thing norn iron can’t afford, and this is where I agree with you rubicon is another McCartney type situation.

  • tweedledee

    Billy,

    Slab and co. would be wise to read up on Broy’s Harriers and De Valera’s emotionally unwilling but politically emphatic destruction of the IRA, and not assume that SF will remain loyal to them forever.

    Problem for Gerry Adams if he goes down that route is there may be those he goes up against who have the goods on him.

    As the North is still under British jurisdiction, and there is no general amnesty, he’s not in the same position as De Valera was, nor anywhere remotely close to it.

    It’s a problem that the RM were exposed to throughout, not just since the peace process began.

  • The Dubliner

    ” SF, political class of the provisional movement, seem to be fast reaching the stage where their old comrades are becoming an obstacle to their political progress.”

    That’s nonsense. PSF/PIRA is a vast conglomerate of businesses and rackets involved in organised crime. Crime is central to the enterprise, not an accidental by-product of it. And it isn’t simply the Chief of Staff of the IRA, Thomas Murphy, who is profiting from the empire: it’s dozens of the top godfathers. Ed Moloney said that the IRA came to control so many businesses in Derry that it stopped its bombing campaign in that city because it would be blowing up its own investments. Angelique Chrisafis pointed out in The Guardian that the “Derry business source said the IRA also controlled firms which it had not bought outright. It lent money to businesses and controlled slot machines in pubs in a similar way to loyalist paramilitaries.” Now which PIRA member in that city would be in control of that local wealth? Would it be your Deputy First Minister? Likewise, who would be the local mafia in control of the Belfast investments and rackets, such as lucrative bank robberies – 25 million from the Northern Bank, for example? Would that be the Bearded One and his associates? Who would bank the 25 million from selling terrorist expertise on the international market to foreign buyers? It isn’t just one person, is it? It was the Irish Justice Minister, Michael McDowell, who tipped off the British about Thomas Murphy’s property portfolio in Manchester, leading the CAB seizing 30 million worth of property belonging to the organised crime syndicate known as PSF/PIRA. Not that Mr Murphy will miss 30 million, as he makes an estimated 10-30 million a year from organised crime. He is the boss of your Deputy First Minister. He enjoys the same protection from prosecution as your Deputy First Minister, as well as other members of the organised crime cartel. So, it’s a case of PSF being inextricably linked to organised crime. Indeed, they are organised crime in Ireland and in Northern Ireland. The political side gives the organised crime side the immunity from prosecution. The governments are allowing them to operate their vast criminal empire – all those lavish millions in interest, property speculation, investments in legitimate businesses, etc – just as long as they behalf like politicians on the public stage and not like they actually are: a fabulously wealthy mafia.

  • Sean

    Dub
    You know some where out there, there is a conspiracy missing its nut

  • Good Grief

    Sean

    I think you’ll find that inside Ireland most people would be mildly curious as to how SF became one of the richest parties in the North.

    If you believe that none of this has been (at the very least, in the past) supported by criminal enterprise then you are not in touch with reality.

    Throw away comments like the above merely highlight your imbalanced, ill informed views of what you and your geographically challenged friends understand to be the realities of political life in the north. If you truly believe there has historically been a division between the funding of Sinn Fein and PIRA then your analysis and understanding is limited to backroom stories you’ve overheard in a bar after one two many whiskeys.

    Seriously, open your eyes.

  • Sean

    Good grief
    I never said they werent cross financed or even partially financed through crime but to read dubs submision apparently SF own and control virtually all free enterprise in nIreland and thats just a little far fetched

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Dubliner

    In fairnness, most of your facts are accurate, but your conclusions are hysterical. You’re falling for the old trick the British government used during the Troubles of talking up the ‘Ra, making them out to be supernatural devils – thereby terrifying people into accepting all sorts of draconian laws and human rights abuses.

    Well, you’re either falling for that particular trick, or you’re trying to pull it yourself.

    Either way, all one has to do is spend one day in the north to realise that the morbid picture you paint simply does not tally with real life.

    Which isn’t to suggest that there isn’t serious organised crime in Ireland, of course.

    Good Grief

    There’s no question that SF and the IRA have a longstanding record of cross-membership, of cross-fertilisation of ideas and initiatives etc. Indeed up until perhaps the mid 90s, there was no meaningful point at which one organisation ended and the other began. They were like two sides of a sheet of paper. And certainly organised crime was a central component in fundraising for the IRA’s campaign – ethical concerns were irrelevant as republicans would say that: a) there was a war on; and that b) Britain (indeed any country) has a long record of funding its countless wars using methods infinitely less moral and ethical than smuggling a bit of diesel, robbing a few banks or running a few pubs/hotels behind a squeaky clean front man.

    The trouble began to arise when the war ended, and you had guys who had never done anything other than smuggle diesel or whatever, and who found themselves in a tricky dilemma.

    (If you look at it on a human level, it’s such a mismatch – you’re in your forties or fifties, you have no qualifications. You perhaps own a wee bit of land with a few sheep or cattle, but barely enough to pay the bills. From your own perspective, you’ve been fighting a war for decades and have probably made great sacrifices, but now the politicians have taken control of the movement and you’re not sure where it’s all going. Your faith in your comrades has been shaken, so you decide that in future, you will look to yourself first and foremost. A red reminder comes in the door. Beef/lamb prices are low.
    Meanwhile you have one particular area of expertise by which you have made millions for the movement over the years. What do you do?)

    My point is that we are reaching a time when SF’s use for their old comrades is at an end. Dubliner talks about the millions that the IRA’s criminal empire generates – it’s chickenfeed next to the budgets that SF ministers in the executive are administering. (And spending, in places like south Armagh and east Tyrone.)

    SF won’t allow their old comrades to jeopardise the future of the executive. Soon enough I think they’ll see the need to put clear blue water between themselves and “the boys” – after all, we can’t continue with the mad situation where every time there’s a crime committed in south Armagh, it’s a political crisis.

    SF will have to cut ties – there’s no way they’ll risk losing their access to hundreds of millions in the executive budget, just because they served with oul’ Slab (or whomever) in the 80s.

  • andy

    Agree with Parci here. Sinn Fein could not have reacted any toher way. Rubicon no offence but you are talking rubbish – anything other than an unequivoval denial of republican involvement would have been viewed as weasel words – equivocating – tacit involvement etc. Imagine him putting out a statement that you wrote out and then being asked follow up questions…

    TAF is right – so far, SF seem to be learning the lessons from McCartney. Unequivocally telling people to go the police is all they can do.

    Dubiner
    I thought the £30m figure was revealed to be an exageration. The other thing is how come there werent more CAB prosecutions when McDowell was in office given the alleged scale of the PIRA global criminal empire. I know it takes time but he did have that – as well as massive motivation.

    Outsider
    Remember this happended in the SOuth. As FF are often in competition with SF for votes, wouldnt they have a bit of motivation to uncover provo involvement is there one some.

    Billy P
    I think you’re right – the case is likely to hinge on when someone is a member of the ‘ra. If they effectively havent been members since the first or second ceasefire how much can they be considered “members of the republican movement”

  • Outsider

    Billy Pilgrim

    Not that I want to go interpreting Gerry Adams’ statements or anything, but I should have thought the sense of this statement was pretty clear – that those engaged in criminality forfeit their right to be regarded as republicans? And that therefore those who killed Paul Quinn have no right to expect any cover from “republicans”, regardless of their politics or whether they were in the IRA?

    I am really confused by this statement, are those who commited the Rememberance Sunday attrocity etc Republicans or Criminals. By your translation Gerry Adams must not consider anyone involved in the ira a true Republican.

  • A reformed Garcia

    My sympathies first and foremost to the Quinn family.

    I think though that the SF condemnations are to be welcomed – go to the PSNI if you know anything etc…. (still find it amazing to hear provo reps saying that!) 🙂 I think, perhaps, their words & support for the police will actually help the DUP position in sharing power, rather than this sickening event itself risking the collapse of the assembly. Even if pira members were involved, its a world away from officially sanctioned.

    Just my take though, quite probably wrong.

    Garcia.

  • Outsider

    A reformed Garcia

    Sinn Fein are never going to openly condone this murder and their support for the police is pretty lackluster, many Sinn Fein members know who carried out this murder but like most murders in NI there will be no convictions.

  • Reformed Garcia

    Outsider

    Cant disagree with you. Their lackluster support is at least support though?

    Garcia.