Dublin SF member expelled

A Dublin SF member, who was convicted for his part in a sectarian attack on a pub in Londonderry, has been ‘summarily dismissed‘ from the party.

  • Ahem

    That and Martin doesn’t murder people any more. As Cole Porter put it so much better than I ever could – “What a swell party this is!”

  • Dec

    who was convicted for his part in a sectarian attack on a pub

    Any actual evidence, other than anecdotal, that this was sectarian?

  • Rory

    It was certainly violent, drunken yobboism and would appear to have crude sectarian undertones and should not be tolerated on any account.

    Sinn Fein’s summary dismissal of this fellow was as is right and it is to be hoped that other parties strike a similar policy as undesirables within their ranks so unmask themselves.

  • The Penguin

    “Any actual evidence, other than anecdotal, that this was sectarian?”

    If you mean was anybody off this board present when it took place, probably not. No sectarian forensics found either, I’m led to believe. But the fact that they were shouting sectarian slogans (anecdotal evidence, I know, but compelling nonetheless) tends most people towards the conclusion that it was indeed a sectarian attack.

  • The Penguin

    I didn’t want this lost in the previous post, but just to say well done to Bohemian supporters for collecting a large sum of money towards the cost of the damage.

    By immediately distancing themselves from this rabble, they did themselves and their club proud.

    I must say, it heartened me no end.

  • Dec

    But the fact that they were shouting sectarian slogans (anecdotal evidence, I know, but compelling nonetheless) tends most people towards the conclusion that it was indeed a sectarian attack.

    Penguin

    Glossing over the oxymoronism in your post, I repeat, is there any actual evidence that this attack, certainly thuggish, was sectarian? This doesn’t

  • Francis O’Reilly

    Dec,
    Keep up the good work! You are right, there is no more evidence that this attack was sectarian than there was that the attack on the Rising Sun, Greysteel or The Heights Bar, Loughinisland were sectarian. All were obviously just carried out by thugs and were in no way sectarian whatsoever.

  • Emmet

    Yet again more ‘Republicanism’ from SF members…thank God Fianna Fáil are organising up here to rescue Republicanism from these thugs that blacken its name.

  • kensei

    Right so:

    1. SF member involved in attack, probably sectarian.
    2. SF member summarily dismissed from party.

    Done then. Time to move on, surely?

  • Garibaldy

    Fair play to the Provos for expelling him.

  • The Penguin

    Dec
    Please explain, then, what might in your view have constituted “actual evidence” that it was a sectarian attack.

  • GavBelfast

    Even if its only for the optics, we’ve made progress when, in years gone by, this might have been seen as a badge of honour.

  • Garibaldy

    Are eyewitness reports of people shouting sectarian slogans the anecdotal evidence Dec means?

  • feckinwhisky

    Ha, had that been in the north, the shinners would probably be campaigning to release him and how his trial was like, soooo, unfair!

    Fecking revolutionaries in the north, wannabe D4 type in the south

  • kidso

    Isnt soccer a British sport?

  • Outsider

    What about Marty he was second in command in Londonderrys ira bridgade which carried out plenty of sectarian murders, I await his expulsion with eagerness.

  • Alex S

    Out the front door in by the back……….

  • joeCanuck

    You just can’t satisfy all the people.

    “SF are too slow to act”.

    “SF are acting too quickly”.

  • unionist

    Fair play to SF for acting in this way. Credit where credit is due.

  • Chris Donnelly

    The only course of action available to the party, and I’m glad it was delivered so swiftly.

    This was a disgraceful sectarian, thuggish act. I’m glad the individuals concerned have a few months to ponder their actions beind bars; my only regret is that they got off without having to pay for the damage to the bar as well as serve time behind bars.

    And fair play to the Bohs fans who’ve collected money to pay for the damage.

  • Outsider

    Out the front door in by the back……….

    Alex S

    I fear the same the be honest.

  • Pete Baker

    So you have evidence it was a sectarian attack, Chris? You should pass that on to Dec et al.

    As for, your “only regret is that they got off without having to pay for the damage to the bar as well as serve time behind bars.”

    Well, according to the reports of the court appearance, they did offer to pay for the damage.. as an alternative to the “time behind bars”.

    But it’s reassuring to see such a committed socialist attempting to pay his way out of the consequences of a criminal offence..

    Perhaps he thought he was in another jurisdiction..?

  • Briso

    PB:So you have evidence it was a sectarian attack, Chris? You should pass that on to Dec et al.

    They were drinking in a pub before the game and were heard asking where the Fountain was. None of them were wearing any football colours as they are part of the BSC, so-called ‘casuals’. They then headed off in the direction of the Fountain and smashed up the first bar they came across in the area, shouting “Up the ‘RA!” They have been causing trouble for the Bohs for quite a while and I hope this is the beginning of the end for them now.

  • Comrade Stalin

    It’s interesting the sort of people SF attracts to it’s membership.

  • Realist

    I understand that two of the four jailed have now been bailed.

    Anyway, fantastic gesture by the Bohs fans who collected a healthy four figure sum at Friday nights Eircom game versus Galway.

    I understand that some Bohs fans have been invited to The Tavern prior to next Friday nights Eircom game versus Derry City, and will hand over the funds collected to Mr Currie.

  • iluvni

    How many of those ‘expelled’ from Sinn Fein over McCartney’s murder are now back in the party?

  • Dec

    To all

    I asked the question where the evidence was whether this was a sectarian act simply because FD’s original thread used the phrase may have had sectarian undertones as well.

    In the linked reports neither the owner of the bar nor the ubiquitous community worker from the Waterside levelled accusations of a sectarian motive, the latter’s sole contribution being that people had told him it was organized in advance on the internet.

    Now if anyone can point me to an actual report that mentions sectarian slogans being shouted, go ahead and I will stand corrected.

  • George

    Dec,
    from the Irish Times:

    “A Public Prosecution Service solicitor told the court that once inside the Tavern Bar the men shouted “Up the Ra” and smashed three windows, damaged items of furniture and assaulted two women. The incidents were recorded on CCTV.”

    http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/1011/breaking4.htm

  • Wee Willie Mc

    Good to see SF taking a hard line with these thugs and I look forward to the day when the Unionist parties do similar and expel those who are involved with the loyalist paramilitaries and the Orange Order.

  • Let’s see…

    Wankers go to football match in Derry. Wankers decide to smash up pub because it’s frequented by Prods. Wankers get lifted, get three months. One of the wankers is member of Sinn Féin, SF summarily expel them. Bohs fans are disgusted and raise collection to pay for damage. Loyalist pub in The Fountain invites Bohs fans around to presnt the cheque and have a few pints before their next game at the Brandywell.

    Er, what is there to have an argument about here?

  • Gréagóir O’ Frainclín

    Anyone see these guys on the news. They were the usual track suit wearing type of juvenile, skin head, skinny face, peanut for brains, Eminem white trash inspired. The kinda type of little scumbag low-life shits that hang around street corners and shops on housing estates everywhere. I believe one of them cried in court when he was sentenced. What a cry baa, not such a hard man now. These little vandalising fuckers would cause trouble anywhere. Dublin is plagued with them as like all urban centres throughout Ireland and the UK. It is another reason why SF did so badly in the last election in the south because of this low-life element. People aren’t blind.

  • dec

    George

    I still don’t see that (shouting “up the ‘RA”) as hard evidence of a purely sectarian motive(They are clearly arseh*les, btw).

  • Garibaldy

    Dec,

    What would constitute it?

  • joeCanuck

    Dec,
    Isn’t it time to lay this poor mistreated dead horse to rest?

  • Penelope

    Sammy Morse – you are spot on.

    Dec – saying “I still don’t see that (shouting “up the ‘RA”) as hard evidence of a purely sectarian motive” is so ridiculous it’s funny, or rather would be if it weren’t so sad… really now… thanks for the chuckle…

    shouting “up the RA” isn’t sectarian indeed… funny!!

  • andy

    i think dec wanted evidence of them shouting something against prods.
    Thats fair enough from one perspective, but, really if they were going around the bogside shouting “up the uda” etc i think i would be prepared to treat them as sectarian without waiting to hear their views on transubstantian etc.

  • andy

    Sammy morse had it spot on. To a certain extent this is a good news story.

  • George

    Dec,
    Andy has it right, in my view. It’s not just the phrase but also the context and place it was said.

    “Trick or Treat” can also be sectarian in certain circumstances.

  • Dec

    George

    I know what you’re saying but in the context of this attack these people were removed from the bar and then attacked it(as far as I am aware). Also there is no evidence there was any premeditation and that they knew this bar had a Protestant clientele. I seem to recall the Rex Bar being attacked by people shouting up the UDA a few years ago, but sectarianism was not a prime motivating factor there. On the basis of the evidence, I do not equate this attack with a deliberate attack on an Orange Hall in terms of sectarian intent. That’s all. I would agree with sammy here that the main emphasis should be on “wankers” and “football match”.

    JoeCanuck

    Dec,
    Isn’t it time to lay this poor mistreated dead horse to rest?

    No getting lectured on Irish politics and culture by a Candadian is too much of a guilty pleasure.

    Penelope

    shouting “up the RA” isn’t sectarian indeed… funny!!

    I would have thought it was primarily political. But since you and Joe appear to be only able to digest the first sentence of my post, I’ll waste no more time with either of you.

  • “How many of those ‘expelled’ from Sinn Fein over McCartney’s murder are now back in the party?”

    None

  • Ant

    Don’t be so silly, Dec.

  • Dec,

    I know what you’re saying but in the context of this attack these people were removed from the bar and then attacked it(as far as I am aware).

    Of all the pubs in the Derry, they chose this particular one to be “removed” from (if your “sources” are correct and it wasn’t, as is reported elsewhere, a premeditated attack), any thoughts why they would have chosen this particular pub to launch their “primarily political” slogans and a few more harmful missiles through the windows?

    Whatever, great gesture by the Bohs’ fans with the collection.

  • joeCanuck

    Well believe it or not Dec, I am Irish.
    I have no problem with your post, but when you repeat it over and over, it gets a tad boring.
    Here endeth the lecture.

  • Billy

    iluvni

    I’m not a Sinn Fein member, voter or supporter. However, I welcome this expulsion as a move in the right direction.

    It is certainly more than you can say for the OO who, as far as I am aware, have never expelled anyone from their ranks for membership of “loyalist” terrorist organisations. They freely admit that there are convicted “loyalist” terrorists in their ranks and that there is nothing in their rules preventing convicted “loyalist” terrorists from joining.

    Earlier this year, they introduced additional rules to prevent people with convictions for certain types of crimes from being members. Oddly enough, convictions for “loyalist” terror offences or sectarian attacks on Catholics aren’t included. When challenged about this, the “leadership” (as usual) were unable to coherently defend this tacit approval of “loyalist” terrorist violence.

    As I say, I’m not a Sinn Fein supporter. However, I’d say a lot of the people who are attacking them here would be OO members or supporters. Frankly, if I were a Sinn Fein member or supporter, I wouldn’t be prepared to listen to hypocritical criticism from members and/or supporters of a supposedly religious organisation which tacitly supports “loyalist” terrorism.

  • iluvni

    “How many of those ‘expelled’ from Sinn Fein over McCartney’s murder are now back in the party?”

    None

    Posted by Chris Gaskin on Oct 15, 2007 @ 05:22 PM

    What about a key suspect being given a well paid ‘community development’ job after an interview by 2 Sinn Fein members who were in Magennis’ Bar that night. Cast any light on that claim by the McCartney sisters?

  • iluvni

    Billy,
    I’ve nothing to do with the OO whatsoever. Their failure to be crystal clear in forthright repudiation of Loyalist paramilitary thugs appals me.

  • Outsider

    Well I am a huge supporter of the Orange Order an organisation that had over three hundred members murdered by Sinn Fein/ira during the troubles.

    Billy we all know about your anti orange feelings do you need to contantly bore us?

  • Frank Sinistra

    Don’t SF have their own internal rules regarding disciplinary proceedings? He was summarily dismissed? That’s it? No hearing, no appeal, just out on his ear?

    I’m not defending his actions just asking is SF’s internal due process now carried out via a British court. Seems so.

    No devolution of justice but SF accept the primacy of the British judiciary?

  • Outsider

    As I say, I’m not a Sinn Fein supporter. However, I’d say a lot of the people who are attacking them here would be OO members or supporters.

    Complete nonsense the only poster on these board who has ever claimed to be in the OO is Fair-Deal.

  • DK

    If this group of casuals are so well known to be footie hooligans, how come SF didn’t kick the guy out long before he did this deed? Is this PR versus keeping a useful tough man on the books?

  • Penelope

    billy – you’re making assumptions about political affliations here. I cannot speak for others here but I myself neither support IRA/SF nor the OO and resent those who would pigeonhole me. I believe that BOTH elements contribute to sectarian tensions, often in stupid, bone-headed ways such as this incident and how it’s made worse by those apologists who try to twist things around to suit their viewpoint. I’ve seen it happen on both sides and IMHO is what slows down forward progress within NI.

    Dec – speaking of apologists (were your ears burning?)if some yobs went into a catholic area shouting “U!D!A!” whilst tearing up a pub I’d say the same to them as I’m about to say to you… shouting such slogans whilst doing such actions isn’t *political*, it is yobbish, sectarian fueled behaviour. You can try to split hairs as to how *purely secatrian* their motives were but but am glad you’re not going to *waste* any more time on me trying to do so… I don’t think I could stand the further amsuement of such twists and turns in logic. Cheers!!!

  • Billy

    Outsider

    “Billy we all know about your anti orange feelings do you need to contantly bore us?’

    Coming from someone whose one-sided (and frequently non-sensical) ramblings are a constant source of boredom to many of us that’s a laugh.

    I notice that you’re unable to deal with the valid points about the hypocritical attitude of the OO towards “loyalist” terrorism.

    I would say that I’m more fair minded than you although that would hardly be difficult.

    What you are really objecting to is the fact that, while acknowledging the wrong doing on the Republican side, I also point out the wrongdoing of “loyalists” and their associated denial/hypocrisy.

    I’m afraid the days of “croppy lie down” and Protestant Supremacy are gone – a great disappointment for you I’m sure!

    If Mick wants to ban me for a valid reason, that’s fine.

    You have no power here. I will continue to express my opinion and, if you don’t like it, you can f**k off.

  • The Dubliner

    “I’m not defending his actions just asking is SF’s internal due process now carried out via a British court. Seems so. No devolution of justice but SF accept the primacy of the British judiciary?” – Frank Sinistra

    Was that the sound of the proverbial penny dropping? 😉

  • Cromwell

    No Billy, why don’t you & your one trick pony f*ck off, this thread is about Bohemians & SF members, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the OO, your post was just pathetic whataboutery.

    On saying that I’d just like to congratulate The Bohs & especially their supporters response & condemnation of these toe-rags.

  • Portadown Football Director

    Pity the UUP could not have learned from this stance.

  • darth rumsfeld

    These balloons aren’t just bigots, they’re ignorant of their own club’s history.

    Bohs’ ground is in the area where the Dublin Protestant working class traditionally lived, and most supported the club. There were links with Linfield pre-split, which carried on at various levels for a considerable time afterwards.

  • barnshee

    “I wouldn’t be prepared to listen to hypocritical criticism from members and/or supporters of a supposedly religious organisation which tacitly supports “loyalist” terrorism. ”

    Absolutely terrible– dangerous animals when attacked respond in kind –I mean how dare they.
    Why don`t they parade about in uniforms and get shot in back– how dare they adopt the tactics of the RA– its not bloody fair thats what.

  • Billy

    Cromwell

    “No Billy, why don’t you & your one trick pony f*ck off”

    The one-trick pony line is wearing a little thin but I guess that’s a comment on your clearly limited vocabulary and even more limited intelligence.

    What a hypocrite you are! I never see you comment on any sectarian attacks by “loyalist” terrorists but you (along with P&J and Outsider)frequently comment on such threads to bring up Republican violence – kings of whataboutery indeed!

    I think you’ll find that I always condemn ALL violence from ALL sides – that’s the difference.

    Thanks for the laugh, your hypocrisy in accusing me of whatboutery is hilarious.

    As with Outsider, what you really don’t like is an “uppity taig” who dares to mention “loyalist” terrorism and point out the hypocrisy of the OO and many Unionist politicians (Peter Robinson’s stance today on the UDA anyone?.

    Well, it’s been a long time since 1968. It may be a disappointment to you but Catholics aren’t second class citizens any more.

    I shall continue to condemn ALL violence and critise hypocrisy/denial from “loyalists” and Republicans.

    If that’s upsets your little world where everything is the “taigs” fault and the “loyalists” are totally blameless, tough shit.

    You have NO authority here. You can either accept the right of others to comment (even Catholics I’m afraid) or you can f**k off to another site that may cater for your prejudiced and unrealistic view of the world.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Frank Sinistra: “I’m not defending his actions just asking is SF’s internal due process now carried out via a British court. Seems so. No devolution of justice but SF accept the primacy of the British judiciary?” ”

    The Dubliner: “Was that the sound of the proverbial penny dropping? 😉 ”

    Nope… sounded like a delicate size 14-E working boot… More of a definate “thud,” as opposed to the clinking of a coin.

  • Cromwell

    Well done Billy,

    In all your posts on this thread about a sectarian attack by Bohemians fans on a bar in Londonderry, one of whom was a Sinn Fein member, you’ve managed to mention Sinn Fein only once & that was only to deny you were either a member or a voter, you’ve mentioned the perpetrators exactly not once & somehow in your bigot frenzy not even mentioned Bohemians or football.
    All you’ve done is accuse others of whataboutery simply because you were guilty as charged, you’ve played the downtrodden taig card on every occasion, in fact you are unintentionally hiarious at every turn, & I must say I always love your endearing wee habit of prefacing every comment by telling us you are not sectarian & condemn bigotry from all sides & then launching into the most long winded, bigoted & sectarian rants.
    You have no power here either, I couldnt care less what religion you are, but It peeves me that you constantly bombard us with it.
    You really are a card SillyBilly.

  • Billy

    Cromwell

    I stated clearly in my first post that I think this expulsion was a step in the right direction by Sinn Fein. Not that I am a supporter or fan.

    I don’t think that there is any place in any party for people who indulge in such activities.

    FYI, my opinion of Sinn Fein has gone down especially with their disgraceful behaviour in the Assembly yesterday.

    I think you’ll find that my attitide is totally consistent on such matters in all my posts here over the years. I challenge you to produce anything that I have ever posted that indicates any level of support for Republican violence.

    What I pointed out (and I wasn’t the first) was that some of the people who came on this thread to criticise Sinn Fein are hypocrites (like Outsider) who stauchly defend the OO and NEVER address the issue of it’s clearly proven links to “loyalist” terrorists and it’s refusal to expel them or even prevent them from joining.

    Personally, I’d say it’s rather hypocritical to criticise an organisation for expelling someone while defending another one that openly admits to having “loyalist” sectarian murderers in it’s ranks and taking no action about it. Would you agree or am I being “silly”?

    I respect people who (like me) are totally opposed to ALL violence i.e. David Vance or Turgon although I would probably disagree with them on most other things.

    I don’t respect people who are hypocrites – who have plenty of condemnation for Republican violence but none for “loyalist” violence or vice versa.

    Far from being a “downtrodden taig”, I assert my rights. You seem to think that people like you, P&J and Outsider etc should be able to come on here and criticse Republican violence while ignoring “loyalist” violence without anyone challenging your hypocrisy.

    Then when people like me come along and point out your hypocrisy along with FACTS that disprove your “it all the taig’s fault” mentality, you are reduced to pathetic name calling and accusing people of sectarian rants.

    This site isn’t designed for people who only want to post and/or hear one-sided prejudice that completely ignores any facts that don’t suit their view of the world.

    I shall continue to speak out against ALL violence and criticise the hypocrisy of people with changeable attitides to violence.

    If you don’t like it, there are a number of “loyalist” sites that have no interest in the truth ( so would probably suit you and your friends) that I could recommend.

  • Cromwell

    Billy,

    I cant be bothered with this, my points stand, you’ve tried to turn a thread on an SF member being expelled on account of his behaviour before a football match into one of your typically boring diatribes against the OO, you are indulging in whataboutery.
    & by the way, if you can find any examples of my so-called hypocrisy please feel free to put up or shut up.
    In the meantime your pony needs feed, its performing its trick somwhere tonight.