Football round-up

Both Scotland and England produced good performances and results but in a lacklustre performance Worthington’s Northern Ireland stumbled against bottom of the group Latvia losing 1-0 (a Baird own goal making the defeat more painful). UPDATE Republic of Ireland end up with a 2-2 draw after an injury-time Slovakian goal and Welsh woes continue with a 0-2 home defeat by Germany.

  • páid

    AN Other,

    “I don’t go to soccer matches to throw abuse at our own players ”

    ermm…neither do I. But if I detect a lack of commitment……

    “[edited by moderator – play the ball not the man]”

    I am a Mancunian United fan, so take your own bitter assumptions and shove ’em.

    “So yes, going to RoI games in recent years has become a depressing chore, having to listen to the “players on the ditch” firing vile abuse at their own.

    Interesting that the same “fans” fall over themselves with their camera phones & their eager handshakes when they meet the very same players they’ve been slating just a few hours earlier…”

    Sorry for your troubles, matey, but I wasn’t there, it wasn’t me, don’t own a camera phone.. go tell it to someone else.

  • Alan Anderson

    Kensei seems we have similar social lives!!! Was also at killers and heard chanting, I felt it was mostly good humored tho and if you have ever been at a rock concert in the south Óle Óle is a regular occurance, and “were not brazil” has to be one of soccers more inteligent chants.

    The debate about Gibbson is irrelevant it will always exist so long as there are 2 FAs on one small Island particularly seen as one didnt formally exist 60 years ago, this situation happens all the time in world soccer, fair enough the IFA need to defend their corner, but dont anyone cod yourself its far from a one off accros the world.

    Its easy to see that the hay day of Irish soccer was the early 80’s till mid 90’s first NI trailblazed then ROI followed ever since both have been at best mediocre, if NIs reason d’etre is to better than ROI its not a very tough task really and its fairly sad also to be honest.

    Its quite apparent to me that soccer promotion does not stop at a border, I know that many in the south not alone follwed NI in 84 but SUPPORTED shouted on. Why is it obvious to everyone other than these idiots that when IRISH socer is good its ALL GOOD when IRISH soccer is bad its all bad.

    The FAI left the IFA because of the biggotry inherent in the organisation, any nationalist would have a death wish to play for OWC, even if he was protestant, like myself.

    I believe Obi Wan Kenobi said it best when addressing the Gungan’s in Episode One- you and the Naboo form a simbiant(whatev that is) circle, whatever happens one will surely hapen the other.

  • Democratic

    “I cant stand Northern Ireland and the majority of Nationalists/ROI fans here in The North feel exactly the same way. Despite the so-called “Sport for All” campaign, Northern Ireland fans absolutely hate The Republic. There is a huge degree of sectarianism among many of their fans. Todays Our Wee Country site is littered with comments from their supporters relating to the many sectarian songs (such as The Sash) which echoed all over Riga on Saturday night.”

    Having so well nailed your colours to the mast in this post macswiney I don’t think there is any further need for any NI supporters to engage you in discussions regarding their team again – you prove yourself incapable of any kind of objectivity or rationality on the subject and as such your opinion on the NI team or their supporters is just about as useful as the proverbial fish’s bicycle.

  • Alan Anderson

    “Democratic” i think its fair enough to have a resonable discussion on how the IFAs or anyone elses “equality” campaign is getting on with a supporter of any national association.

    As a pragmatic protestant i would consider the IFAs programme an abject failure. Dont call oneself Democratic if your not prepared to listen to the people.

  • Democratic

    “As a pragmatic protestant i would consider the IFAs programme an abject failure. Dont call oneself Democratic if your not prepared to listen to the people.

    Posted by Alan Anderson on Sep 10, 2007 @ 03:32

    I didn’t see any discussion going on there in the post I highlighted Alan – merely statements presented as absolutes with no wish for exploration – if you would like to discuss the IFA equality policy – I will do so with you – but tell me Alan – how could I take seriously any discussion with someone who opens the debate with the equivalent of “I can’t stand your team or their bigotted supporters and neither can my mates.” Fine then if that is the attitude – feel free to get on following your own team – but don’t get upset when your admissions to the debate are largely ignored for those people with an open mind. As for my user name – if it bothers you so much then why not consider it ironic and move on.

  • Democratic

    “your opinion on the NI team or their supporters is just about as useful as the proverbial fish’s bicycle”.

    Erm… In other words I am not saying what you would PREFER me to say !

    The Sport For All campaign launched by The IFA has been a complete failure (as proven by the loyalist songs sung by hundreds of so called NI fans in Riga on Friday and Saturday Night).

    You seem to think that it is not “useful” for someone to point out the truth about the sectarian nature of a sizeable number of Northern ireland supporters. In other words you would prefer if we just ignored it and you could live in some idyllic world pretending you follow a team with cross community support…

    I also note that although you criticised me for being honest in saying that I disliked Northern Ireland, you failed to equally condemn Beano who admitted that both he and most NI fans feel exactly the same way about the Republic !

    How come you failed to comment on their “objectivity” and, indeed, does that raise questions about your own objectivity on this subject…

  • Democratic

    Nah Macswiney – I tend to ignore what you say because you have an obvious agenda and a closed mind – as such your mind I would venture was made up a long time ago – a lost cause in debating terms. As for Beano – did he slate the ROI support anywhere in his post or proclaim any failures on their the part of the FAI with flimsy evidence – you know like you just did?

  • Democratic,

    So effectively what you are saying is that there were no sectarian chants in Riga (even though many NI fans on the OWC site today have said that there were!!!) .

    And, even though the Sky Sports News Reporter did a piece on the rioting in Riga, he clearly just made it up as well then, did he…?
    Then, there’s the local press and TV in Latvia who have also ‘invented’ the trouble as well. (turning into a real conspiracy isnt it…??)

    Alan was right – Your use of the name ‘Democratic’ is about as ironic as they come…

  • Democratic

    Macswiney – your gettin good at constructing those straw men then battering them – keep it up.
    I see little point in debating any of the above incidents to your agenda – you are a propagandist with a closed mind – your initial post told me as much. To anyone else who may be interested I condemn any rioting from NI supporters in Riga whether it was a few dozen arseholes out of 2000 in low level incidents (as most reports suggest)
    or hundreds of NI fans singing sectarian songs echoing all over Riga while wrecking the place as Macswiney suggests. There is no excuse they have embarassed us and re-damaged a reputation that the real fans have been trying very hard to salvage for a long time now with a good deal of success. The offenders should be banned from any supporters clubs and or travelling to any away games – no excuse.

  • Alan Anderson

    Can I make a few suggestions you would have think may have crossed the board room table in the IFA, and we can debate them between us:

    Q1 We live in a highly sectarian, Balkanised state, alot of our IFA symbolisim is seen as agressive towards over 40% of our population?

    Ans1. Lets find a resonable alternative to GSTQ, no other UK team uses it other than England, and nationalists(who were really trying hard to woo, dont get it), an reasonable alternative would push “sport for all”.

    Ans2. Now we have consensus on a shared song with a shared identity, maybe we could enforce lifetime bans on those singing sectarian chants akin to Neo Nazis bared from grounds in central Europe.

    Ans3. Now that there are no sectarian songs we can try to erradicate this UBER Britisher thing or stands and flags make us look like English 2nd division thugs. Lets use the fantastic IFA logo more and phase out anything other than an IFA or similar flag.

    Ans4. Now we have more people comming cos its now SAFE we can work on more cross community and cross border games etc, to encourage more nationalists into the game and perhaps in 20 years time and the sectarianisim is laid to bed we might become the 2nd biggest sport in NI.

    You would think if “sport for all” were serrious atleast one of these things would be addressd but not one iota not an inch to try to make soccer a sport any nationalist in NI can follow safely.

    The IFA was given a remit to promote soccer in NI and failed, and continues to, much like most unionists keep to themselves, turn a golden oportunity into a lame duck.

    Thus to my point. IFAs “sport for all” is a joke, and you know as much as i have my KJ Bible on my desk, not on your life would i ever ever play for NI, I would be taking my life in my hands.

  • Alan Anderson

    Further: this is not the first time the IFA failed to bring soccer to the people, in the early 1900’s the people of Dublin (protestand and catholic) were begging for soccer and by all accounts the initiative was with the IFA to provide them with it, the IFA failed … again, because it was stuck in its sectarian quango. The FAI subsequently was forced to leave to provide quality and open games administration.
    “the IFA bringing soccer to Ireland”=failure
    “the IFA bringing soccer to all NI”=failure

    tell me this when am i going to see the NI be sucsessfull in bringin soccer to the people?

  • derek

    If the events of the last couple days in Latvia show anything, it shows that for many supporters, sectarian singing is still acceptable and popular within the ranks.

    The vast majority of supporters were happy to shout their ‘no surrender’ add-on’s during the playing of God Save The Queen and Unionjack’s seemed to be the order of the day among the supporters.

    Add in the violence from a sizable secion of the travelling support, and you end up with a scenario similar to the English support in the ‘bad old days’.

    The situation is hardly helped by the IFA’s refusal to discard the exclusively unionist emblems at games and its refusal to take on the ‘Protestant bible bashers’ within its organisation who refuse to allow kids to play a game on a Sunday.

  • derek

    ‘sizable section’

  • A N Other

    Páid/”Pawed”

    Thought you might also follow Bayern Munich?

    When you’re resorting to juvenile comebacks along the lines of “I don’t own a camera phone, so there!”, I know I’m wasting my time.

    Much as I’d love to trade petty barbs back & forth, I’ll leave you to your puerile patter for the evening…

  • Doctor Who

    AA

    “not on your life would i ever ever play for NI, I would be taking my life in my hands.”

    Who do you play for, your not really Darron Gibson are you?

    If not don´t you think you are being a tad mellow dramatic.

  • willowfield

    Back last night from Riga.

    The Sport For All campaign launched by The IFA has been a complete failure (as proven by the loyalist songs sung by hundreds of so called NI fans in Riga on Friday and Saturday Night). The Sport For All campaign launched by The IFA has been a complete failure (as proven by the loyalist songs sung by hundreds of so called NI fans in Riga on Friday and Saturday Night).

    Unlike you, I was in Riga on Friday and Saturday nights. I didn’t hear any sectarian songs on Friday; I did hear some on Saturday, but they weren’t sung by “hundreds” – there were pockets of fans singing occasional sectarian songs in the square but failing to get the bulk of people to join in.

    I genuinely don’t believe that “hundreds” of NI fans were singing sectarian songs, but I do acknowledge that there were some groups doing so.

    As for the “500 fans” rioting – that is just a lie. I didn’t witness the “riot” but no-one whom I spoke to who did witness it gave the impression that there was anywhere near that number.

    On the police – yes, at the risk of sounding like a Provisional SF spokesman – they were “heavy-handed”. That doesn’t excuse urinating in the street or throwing beer, although being arrested, dumped into a van and robbed for walking on the grass is, in my view, unacceptable.

    The vast majority of supporters were happy to shout their ‘no surrender’ add-on’s during the playing of God Save The Queen and Unionjack’s [sic] seemed to be the order of the day among the supporters.

    It is a lie to say that the “vast majority of supporters” were happy to shout ‘no surrender’. You’re just exaggerating.

    To:Alan Anderson

    Further: this is not the first time the IFA failed to bring soccer to the people, in the early 1900’s the people of Dublin (protestand and catholic) were begging for soccer and by all accounts the initiative was with the IFA to provide them with it, the IFA failed … again, because it was stuck in its sectarian quango. The FAI subsequently was forced to leave to provide quality and open games administration.

    This is a bizarre statement based on no evidence. Do you care to back it up?

    How does, for example, staging internationals and cup finals in Dublin qualify as “failing to bring “soccer” to the people of Dublin?

  • Diluted Orange

    Macswiney

    [i]There is a huge degree of sectarianism among many of their fans. Todays Our Wee Country site is littered with comments from their supporters relating to the many sectarian songs (such as The Sash) which echoed all over Riga on Saturday night.[/i]

    And what did the comments on the OWC website say about any sectarian songs being sung? They were roundly condemned. Not one poster on that website had anything but contempt for the bigots that were singing the Sash – and it was hardly hundreds as you insinuate. Unfortunately the voices of a few scumbags will be heard a lot clearer in a crowd of 2,000 away supporters on the streets of Riga than they will do in a crowd of 15,000 at Windsor Park. They also had the comfort of knowing that they could get away with it without being ejected from the ground or being confronted by their fellow ‘fans’.

    Maybe folk like me would take your criticism of the NI football team and its support more seriously if you didn’t have such an obvious agenda when it came to your ridiculously over the top comments. There’s fair comment and then there’s Republican propaganda, your posts fall firmly into the latter category.

    [i]The Sport For All campaign launched by The IFA has been a complete failure (as proven by the loyalist songs sung by hundreds of so called NI fans in Riga on Friday and Saturday Night)[/i]

    A complete failure?! How do you measure this failure and with what other scheme should we compare it to in order to gauge how far we’ve come? If it was a complete failure then UEFA would hardly have voted NI fans as being the best in Europe, would they? No-one says that all the problems in NI’s support have been eradicated but we’re moving in the right direction and there has been a vast improvement in a short number of years.

    I bet you’ve never set foot inside Windsor Park yet you reserve the right to take hear-say and conjecture and present it as a case to prove that we’re all bigots and conclude that nothing has changed. Do you have any first hand experiences to offer when you stick the knife in? Or do you base all your ‘knowledge’ of the IFA team and it’s support from what your pals say about the ‘Orange b@st#rds’ down in the pub?

    I attended quite a few matches during the 90s when there was real hardcore of sectarianism present at the matches. The back of the North stand was festooned in band flags and songs like the ‘Billy Boys’ were sung. The fact is, whether you choose to accept it or not, the support has changed immeasurably. If anyone was to get up to those antics now they would be quickly shouted down or ejected.

    Change has happened but there is still progress to be made. More and more Nationalists are coming to games – hopefully this number will steadily increase as the atmosphere improves even further.

  • derek

    ‘If it was a complete failure then UEFA would hardly have voted NI fans as being the best in Europe, would they’

    it wasn’t awarded by UEFA and the award was for teams with a history of racism or sectarianism who had tried to improve their poor record.

    ‘As for the “500 fans” rioting – that is just a lie. I didn’t witness the “riot” but no-one whom I spoke to who did witness it gave the impression that there was anywhere near that number.’

    According to links from local Latvian press and media linked earlier in the thread, it stated that 500 n.i hooligans went on the rampage smashing restaurants and attacking police vehicles. The news footage shows police vehicles damaged by supporters.

    Seems to have been a good old ‘orangefest’ in Latvia at the weekend.

  • Derek
    *Ahem*
    Some bad news just in for you and MacS I’m afraid:

    Latest report from our Man In The Baltics

    Earlier in the day, the Northern Ireland fans had turned the center of Riga green, setting up camp in the Old Town and downing prodigious quantities of beer while singing their songs, prior to their team’s Euro 2008 qualifying match against Latvia. A few minor scuffles broke out but early reports of “rioting” fans from the night before were greatly exaggerated. Five people were arrested on Friday night – including one Latvian – and a police car was damaged.

    Fears that trouble might escalate after the Northern Ireland team suffered a surprise 1:0 defeat to a Latvian team playng for nothing but pride proved groundless. Police spokeswoman Ieva Reksna told the Baltic News Service that the fans there was no disorder in the city on Saturday night. Three drunk fans were taken to a ‘sobering house’ and another was detained for his own safety as he was incapable of giving police his details and no information could be found about him.

  • derek

    oneill?

    This from the Latvian News Agency quoting the Municipal police spokesperson.

    500 Northern Irish football fans go on the rampage in Old Riga; police arrest six people

    RIGA, Sep 8 (LETA) – Last night at about 1.25 a.m., about 500 fans of the Northern Ireland football team went on the rampage at Livu Square in Riga’s Old Town, after which five Irish citizens and one Latvian were arrested, the Riga Municipal Police’s public relations secretary Inese Timane reported to LETA.

    According to police, the riot broke out late into the night, when the municipal police’s Old Riga patrol unit spotted a mob of football fans rioting at a summer cafe on the Livu Square, throwing chairs around and smashing plates.

    The police officers had not acted immediately but called additional forces – two patrol units – who tried to split the crowd in two.

    “It did not help much, as the Irish citizens started throwing things at police cars, and smashed the front window of one police car with a brick.”

    More police reinforcements had to be sent to the venue to deal with the violent crowd, said Timane.

    http://www.leta.lv/fnews.php?id=C143AADE-9BC5-481A-BB94-4C7E175F946A

  • Derek
    Well, well, well… we now seem to have a difference of opinion there even between Latvian police spokesmen.

    Who to believe eh?

  • derek

    oneill?

    No differences of opinion in the police version
    of events i’m afraid.

    Your link refers to a police spokesperson commenting on Saturday night. The fans went on the rampage on Friday night, rioting, damaging property & attacking the police as confirmed by the Riga Municipal Police’s public relations secretary Inese Timane.

  • derek

    Garcia

    You seem like a very rude & aggressive chap.

    [edited by moderator – play the ball not the man]

  • derek

    anger management !!

  • Macswiney: “There is huge antipathy between Ireland supporters and NI fans”

    There probably will be as long as you continue to erroneously refer to your team as “Ireland”, for one thing.

    I was disgusted to read about the reports of trouble in Riga (couldn’t make the trip unfortunately), but there seem to be too many witnesses reporting people getting arrested for singing or walking on the grass, driven round in police vans and then robbed (“fined” about 5 times the official rate, etc) by corrupt police for it to be a coincidence or even one or two fans feeling hard done by. There was one fellow familiar with the Latvian press (don’t know if he’s a NI fan or not) said the paper you quoted is “prone to exaggeration”.

    Like I said I wasn’t there though, so can’t really add much more than that.

    “I cant stand Northern Ireland and the majority of Nationalists/ROI fans here in The North feel exactly the same way.”

    Funny how all the internet warriors who hate NI claim to speak for “the majority of nationalists”. From my experience offline (yes, in the real world) many (at least nominal) nationalists are relatively sympathetic, and fair play to them.

    Derek, try reading…

    “Five people were arrested on Friday night – including one Latvian”

    Re the breakaway of the partitionist FA, they broke away because the IFA changed their minds back from an initial plan to play a cup final replay in Dublin. This was in 1921…. hmmm now what was happening in the Free State at this time?

    “In 1919, 11 RIC men and 4 Dublin Metropolitan Police were killed and another 20 RIC wounded.”

    “Violent attacks by the IRA also steadily increased however. By the spring of 1920, they were attacking isolated RIC stations in rural areas, causing them to be abandoned as the Police retreated to the larger towns.”

    “In July 1920, another quasi-military police body, the Auxiliaries, consisting of 2,214 former British army officers arrived in Ireland.”

    Is it any f**kin wonder they didn’t want to make the trip down?!
    “On 3 May the Dáil was informed 18 men had been killed in the fighting in Kilkenny “

  • derek

    Garcia

    [edited by moderator]

    Beano

    The upsurge in sectarianism in the last few away games must be worrying for you all.

    It sounded & looked like a loyalist rally inside the stadium, although that probably seemed timid, if the eyewitness reports of sectarianism on the streets are true.

  • páid

    AN Other,

    hey I’d watch the insults. The ref will have for you playing the man again, Mr. Genuine Supporter.

    So I’m not Páid, I’m Pawed.

    Tell me, is there an end to your devestating wit?

  • “The upsurge in sectarianism in the last few away games must be worrying for you all.

    It sounded & looked like a loyalist rally inside the stadium, although that probably seemed timid, if the eyewitness reports of sectarianism on the streets are true. “

    I’ve heard a few reports of sectarian songs outside around the bars, mostly by the hangers on who failed to get the rest of the crowd involved. Would be shocked if there was anything inside the ground though (then again, when there are arseholes who deem “Ulster Til I Die” to be sectarian, that’s a different story).

    I was struck by the number of Union Jacks on display in the ground, far more than I’ve seen at a NI match for at least 5 years. Please tell me there was something worse than that to provoke you to label it akin to a “Loyalist Rally” ? I’ll eagerly anticipate looking for your reply when I get to work in the morning.

  • To clarify, I wouldn’t support bringing a Union Jack to a NI match, but I think we have more serious problems to contend with – like an inability to score against a team of part-timers and the woeful standard of refereeing.

  • Doctor Who

    Derek

    “it wasn’t awarded by UEFA and the award was for teams with a history of racism or sectarianism who had tried to improve their poor record. ”

    The award was endorsed by UEFA by the city of Brussells who honour those involved in Sport and Culture for making a difference.

    It was in recognition of the fans not only for their behaviour but also huge generoisty in charitable organisations in other countries.

    When NI fans visit less fortunate places than ours (strange but true), the local childrens homes and hospitals are a little bit better off afterwards.

    This nonsense about an award given to ex racists is a nonsense and people like you only spout it because you are republican green with envy.

    I think you and macswiney should take time away from the keyboard.

  • Billy

    Dr Who

    “The award was endorsed by UEFA by the city of Brussells who honour those involved in Sport and Culture for making a difference”.

    I think the word is improvement not difference and there is no doubt that NI support was in dire need of improvement.

    By the way, in no official way does this award refer to “the best fans in Europe”. The so-called GAWA just made that up and you’re fooling no-one but yourselves.

    Anyway, I have always admitted that NI support has improved since the Neil Lennon incident. I just contend that it is nowhere near as free of sectarianism as you and other GAWA supporters on here try to pretend.

    If you consider the arrests, rioting, sectarian singing, masses of Union Jacks and “No Surrender” chants in Riga, I think I’m on pretty firm ground there.

  • sammaguire

    “There probably will be as long as you continue to erroneously refer to your team as “Ireland”, for one thing.”

    Posted by beano on Sep 11, 2007 @ 12:10 AM

    If you want to nit pick why don’t you call your team North Eastern Ireland rather than erroneously referring to them as Northern Ireland?

  • Derek

    Your link refers to a police spokesperson commenting on Saturday night. The fans went on the rampage on Friday night, rioting, damaging property & attacking the police as confirmed by the Riga Municipal Police’s public relations secretary Inese Timane.

    Read it again, this time a bit more slowly.
    Also check out the dates on the two reports.
    Yours is from the 8th, mine from the 10th.
    Mine is what is commonly known as an “update”.

    But look, if you’re still struggling, I’ve even put the relevant part in bold to help you out.

    Earlier in the day, the Northern Ireland fans had turned the center of Riga green, setting up camp in the Old Town and downing prodigious quantities of beer while singing their songs, prior to their team’s Euro 2008 qualifying match against Latvia.

    A few minor scuffles broke out but early reports of “rioting” fans from the night before were greatly exaggerated. Five people were arrested on Friday night – including one Latvian – and a police car was damaged.

  • If you want to nit pick why don’t you call your team North Eastern Ireland rather than erroneously referring to them as Northern Ireland?

    Call your team “Ireland” if you want.
    Both FIFA and UEFA stick with “Republic of Ireland” and “Northern Ireland.”

    But “North Eastern Ireland” ?
    Good idea for a split-off rugby team perhaps?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Dr Who

    Not wishing to interfere in all this bickering but…

    Why do you find it difficult to admit that your team’s support had a massive problem with sectarianism, still have but received an award for improving behaviour? Surely representing the facts as they are and working towards eradication is a worthwhile goal, I can’t understand the need to deny this.

    When events like Latvia occur(however contradictory) they should not be brushed under the carpet, but seen as an indication of how tough a quest the job is going to be. As long as people are pushing in the right direction to rid themselves as a group of fans of their ant-Catholic ethos they should be encouraged, and not wound up.

    Considering the level of prevarication by some N.I. fans here it is difficult to condemn the wind-up merchants on their own.

    Garcia

    Lol [edited by moderator – play the ball not the man]

  • fair_deal

    Red card to Garcia and Derek for repeated breaches of the man not ball rule. Two week ban.

  • sam

    prince

    you Sum up Garcia pretty well

    fd

    a bit harsh on Derk, in my opinion. Made some valid points with links to back them up.The other lad seems to have simply been abusive.

    Stewards enquiry anyone ?

  • “Why do you find it difficult to admit that your team’s support had a massive problem with sectarianism, still have”

    I will admit we have a massive problem and that we still have a problem. I will not accept that it is still a massive problem, except in the eyes of those who wish it to be.

  • Let’s try that again:

    I will admit we had a massive problem and that we still have a problem. I will not accept that it is still a massive problem, except in the eyes of those who wish it to be.

  • fair_deal

    Sam

    Both were warned, both breached again. All the posts by Derek that are within the rules remain on the thread. A moderator’s decision is final.

  • sam

    fd

    So is Prince’s response not deemed ‘man playing’?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Beano

    In one way you complement my point by admitting albeit slightly reluctantly that you had a problem. You then go on to hint that fault may lie in others for wishing/exposing it thus.

    My advice would be to take away the thunder of critics by fully accepting criticism even when slightly over-egged, small price to pay for past behaviour. Also play up inclusive initiatives, lobby IFA to actively punish sectarian chants/behaviour by having police/steward spotters ect… I have praised Linfield here in the recent past for having visible structures in place to help confront their past. You guys can do it too!

  • Alan Anderson

    The symbolisim is too much for me i will stand for GSTQ but it sure as hell aint my anthem, a song about English supremacy!! Not another region of the UK subscribes to it why must NI? Its that stupid brainless plastic UBER BRITICHERNESS that I cant stand and yes i have been in Windsor as I have been in most major Irish stadia and even tho I am protestant i felt just as uncomfortable as when sitting near PSV eindhoven ultras sporting swastica tatoos, and PSV are my favourite club.

  • Alan Anderson

    Neither is it melodramatic to say “not on my life would i play for NI” , I believe a VERY proud Protestant and Ulsterman Eddie Irvine shared his desire for a UI in his biography also using the uniting flag of green white and orange on his car was under a death threat until he changed it.

    So no not on my life would i play for NI, it wouldnt matter that im a prodie, it just matters that im not a plastic bwitish unionist lackey.

    Makes me sick the IFA need to get serious with this.

  • Democratic

    “So no not on my life would i play for NI, it wouldnt matter that im a prodie, it just matters that im not a plastic bwitish unionist lackey.

    Makes me sick the IFA need to get serious with this.”
    Was quite interested in your postings Alan until you came up with that last gem – think from now on I’ll file you along with yer Macswiney guy for ignoring. BTW – How many times are you going to tell people you’re a Prod – it doesn’t had any more weight to anything you say – In fact I’m starting to get suspicious I must admit.

  • Dec

    Re the breakaway of the partitionist FA, they broke away because the IFA changed their minds back from an initial plan to play a cup final replay in Dublin. This was in 1921…. hmmm now what was happening in the Free State at this time?

    “In 1919, 11 RIC men and 4 Dublin Metropolitan Police were killed and another 20 RIC wounded.”

    “Violent attacks by the IRA also steadily increased however. By the spring of 1920, they were attacking isolated RIC stations in rural areas, causing them to be abandoned as the Police retreated to the larger towns.”

    “In July 1920, another quasi-military police body, the Auxiliaries, consisting of 2,214 former British army officers arrived in Ireland.”

    Is it any f**kin wonder they didn’t want to make the trip down?!
    “On 3 May the Dáil was informed 18 men had been killed in the fighting in Kilkenny ”

    Beano

    Nice rant, except on the dates you mention there was no Free State, we were all one happy Ireland. They cahnge of venue for the Cup final was the final straw for the southern members, and not the Ground zero style event, you suggest. Also during the dates you mention, Belfast was awash with loyalist pogroms and sectarian murders so the North was hardly the Utopia some might think.

  • John East Belfast

    I was in Riga square on Saturday night and reports of rampage etc are complete rubbish.

    What I did see was the worst policing of a gathering of any description and about 20 hooligans (and I am not prone to excuse any such people) who had been provoked and reacted in the way they know best.

    Any partial observer would know that Irish fans – north & south – when they go on such trips are on their best behaviour and the only harm they do is to their own livers.

    What had happened was Beer tents and cafes had been erected all around the square which the owners were doing a great trade.

    Beside the tents was a lawn with some nice purple flowers. It was nigh impossible to put 2000 + NI fans into that square and for someone not to stray onto the grass.
    When they did they were immediately lept upon by heavily armed “robo cop” type police and escorted off to a van and driven away.
    I had no reason to disbelieve that what happened then was they were ‘fined’.

    This kind of thing went on for quite a while but most people just ignored it was happening because nobody wanted arrested.

    I was told that a PSNI Officer and a London Police Officer approached the Latvian Police and showed them their warrant card and asked them to ease off on their tactics but were effectively told to keep out of it.

    Then at about 1.00 am the police started asking everyone to go home – there then followed a bit of light banter along the lines of “we are not going home” singing.

    Of course it didnt seem to cross the police minds that the best way to break up the gathering was to ask the Beer tent owners to shut up shop – they were still busy pulling pints.
    A couple of NI fans approached the police and pointed this tactic out to them – they were either misunderstood or ignored.

    The police then decided they were going to force everyone off the square by driving their vehicle into the throng and doing snatch arrests on people who’s only crime that I could see was they were the most vigorous singers.

    Most people at this stage started to retreat as thet realised it was getting ugly. The riot police on the edge of the square began pulling on balaclavas and crash helmets.

    As more arrests occurred for singing loudly a couple of idiots throught plastic pint glasses into the air – the kind of thing that happens in the standing area of rock concerts.

    The police did more snatches – I like most others by this time had retreated well out of the way and left when I heard what I was later told was the smashing window of a police van.

    Totally unacceptable behaviour by the minority few but I cant think of 2000 football fans anywhere where some among their midst would not have reacted that way to incredibly stupid policing.

    Thankfully on the Saturday night the police had eased off a bit but I did see a guy being arrested – i dont know what he did but he was pleading to be allowed to see the match as we were only about 50 yards from the stadium by then.
    Some of his friends half heartedly spoke up for him but they retreated when they realised they were going to be lifted too.

    In the ground the Robo cops all filed in and lined themselves up between the NI fans – I really dont know what they were expecting but thankfully 15 minutes into the match they all left and went behind the fence and took their helmets and balaclavas off and watched the match.

    The burly stewards were all dressed in Black suits and shirts and I can only say were local bouncers.

    One thing I think really eased the situation and ‘shocked’ the Latvians was the respect the NI fans paid to the Latvian National Anthem – total silence and the looks on the Lativian police and stewards was priceless.

    Latvian police were very inexperienced for this kind of thing and also I suppose it is going to be several years befoer they can throw off the Soviet style police influence.

    However it would be totally unfair and unjustified to vilify the GAWA for the events of Riga on Saturday night.

  • Alan Anderson

    Democratic- I would question any “Christian” in their beliefs if they thought that ignoring sectarianisim wasnt sick, you can get suspicious of that all you want.

    Please comment on my initial points rather than the asside, which is personal feeling to all levels of sectarianisim on all sides. (trust me i know what both are like)

    And it is the fact that if people dont subscribe to an unsubscibable unionisim-loyalisim they are left in the cold in the IFA, correct me if im wrong?

  • Democratic

    “Democratic- I would question any “Christian” in their beliefs if they thought that ignoring sectarianisim wasnt sick, you can get suspicious of that all you want.”

    Constructing straw men pal – just like yer other guy. Anyway a tip for the future – I have never EVER heard a Protestant refer to themselves as a “Proddie” – sure I have heard Catholics/Nationalists doing so (normally Southerners) but that is an another story eh?

  • Alan Anderson

    I was being ironic by my use of that word, do you take everything so seriously? Using terrace talk of if you will. If i cause you to stumble by the use of a abreviation my apologies.

    I take sectarianisim of all colour seriously and just because you disagree that I should doesnt me you should attempt to slur me, I suspect your reading my posts emotiona1y, hence your over emotional ilogical replies. You attached yourself to my hatrid of sectarianisim and suspect a weekness of mine, but IMHO in Ulster the only weekness is the sectarianisim so ingrained in our society.

    Mind you, the automatic connecting of unionisim to protestantisim does deserve to be derided so in that case i stand by my use of “plastic bwitish unionist lackey” and will not apologise for that, some of us can think by ourselves.

    I been in windsor have aquaintances go there regularly, we all know the IFA dragging their heals on alot of issues, are you incapable of entering this debate? Or are you going to be held up with bye issuse?

    Lets get down to brass tax my democratic friend

  • p mc

    As supporters, we need to face up to the continued sectarianism from ‘some’ within our support. I don’t think its good enough to try and play it down or hide the facts from everyone. Many on OWC have been open in telling it as they witnessed it last weekend. Let’s be open about our own problems.

    “These sectarian problems have been emerging over the last few away trips. A group of us were abused by quite a few members of one NISC because we were wearing Green to the match. We just shook our heads and laughed at them and they duly started singing Billy’s Boys”

    “There were definitely some “fans” who were there for trouble. They were sectarian, drunk beyond all reason, violent and aggressive. Some of them got exactly what they deserved from the police”

    “There is a Large proportion of hoods supporting us and singing sectarian songs”

    “Quite simply there were far too many d1ckheads in Riga at the weekend. I’ve never seen so many hoods at a match before who were there to cause trouble”

    “I saw a large minority of our supporters acting like cocks, goading, provoking, swearing loudly, letching, singing ‘UVF’ etc, in fighting. Johnny Adair wannabees swaggering about in Rangers tops….all F*king embarrassing”

    “there was a lot of unsavoury behaviour from club members as well”

    “half the norn iron fans are cabbages no f**k al about football and couldnt drink soup, all they go for is to get drunk and let the whole show down. i have been going away for the last 6 years an i have never meet as many golfballs in my life, golfball is the best word to describe them. cause all you feel like doing is hittin them”

    Then we have idiots on our own forum threatening Latvians here in Norn Iron.

    “couldnt agree more,maybe we should start treating the latvians the same in this country,i work with a lithuanian and he detests them”

    We really need to confront these bigots and make sure they are not welcome.

  • Alan Anderson

    Bingo p mc theres a problem and the IFA seem content to bury their head in the sand which is embarrasing.

  • Democratic

    Alan – again in that post you construct yourself a couple of straw men then proceed to batter them – all the best with that – I’ll not stop you while in flow. However what does interest me is my team – again like Macswiney it is completely transparent that you have an agenda – do we really have a major sectarian incident on our hands here? – minor hooliganism certainly from a minority of supporters – a lesser number again singing the sash (wrong again I agree and would certainly have made uncomfortable listening for any NI Catholics there which is unforgiveable in my opinion from whose participated) – and 5 arseholes lifted (1 of whom was Latvian)- the scale of these incidents (which are commonplace at many away premiership club matches on any given Saturday) are having the detractors quite literally salivating at the mouth with a chance to put the boot in. Yes – we have problems and I have stated my view on Saturdays offenders – I do not need to do so again. As for certain Nationalists trying so hard to create a solid link with rabid anti-Catholic hatred amongst the IFA and the NI supporters with Saturdays dickheadery –
    well to be honest there are ulterior motives at work there. However Alan if I thought you had for one minute an open mind on the subject then I would be happy to discuss IFA failings in their Football for All campaign – which is a work in progress remember (and one that has seen the real fans recognised by UEFA for their willingness to confront old attitudes) However the immensely insulting British Lickspittle comment pretty much gives a showing to your true motives on this thread. as for you being ironic with the “Proddy” thing – sure you were….. as for your suggestions about what should have went in the IFA boardroom – you can look up any amount of older NI team threads to see the views of many of the resident NI supporters here (including nmy own)on those points (flags, anthems, stewarding etc) – you may be surprised at what you find – quite frankly though I don’t think your interest goes much further than propaganda value so I don’t think I’ll waste my time with you too much.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>I have never EVER heard a Protestant refer to themselves as a “Proddie” <

  • Alan Anderson

    I dont have enough interest in soccer (other than PSV) to trawl through many fora? Were my comments about the obvious questions in the IFA not pretty on the ball if not why not? What questions would you be asking if you sat in that boardroom?

    Im not saying anything other than the OG on saturday was a “major” incident, im trying to discuss with you how the IFA can apply sport for all?

  • Democratic

    Fair enough Prince – If yer man says he is from Scotland I will withdraw my comment.

  • Alan Anderson

    “However Alan if I thought you had for one minute an open mind”

    Thats why its a forum and not your job to make a personal evaluation on a person you never met, simply to make a coment on the discussion matter, or not make one atall.

    Tis but a simple concept.

  • Alan Anderson

    Most ulster-scots have scotish links dont we?

    Now play the man not the ball democratic, you have been subject turning for sometime now im not prepared to let it go.

    How do you implement “sport for all” or do you stick with “the sport for 58%” model?

  • Democratic

    Ok Alan – many of your comments about the theoretical IFA boardroom meetings were perfectly relevant questions (at this point I was finding the line of discussion quite interesting)- these issues have been discussed so many times and yes it is past time that the IFA dealt with some of them head on – the “never on a Sunday” rule must go in the 21st century – I believe the motion was very only narrowly defeated recently. The stewarding issue for rooting out morons is also a very fair suggestion (although in practice this may get complicated/dangerous for the security staff – however I digress)
    Flags and anthems are a more complicated issue for obvious reasons – it is difficult for the majority of NI fans who do hold allegience to GSTQ and their own flag to particpate in discussions about scrapping them as if the were either wrong or sectarian – they are not. However I am personally sympathetic to the plight of those fans alienated by them (for want of a better word) and I personally would lend my support to an agreed neutral flag and anthem – especially if it attracted more Nationalists to watch/support NI – I will not however condemn those supporters (not withstanding the no surrender clowns)as bigots or whatever else for wanting to hear their national anthem while watching their country play (as our Southern counterparts I am sure would agree)- perhaps a Rugby type accomodation could be reached – but then again do you think any of this would overide the Nationalist political principles and objections to the NI team – I remain unconvinced -however that does not detract from those issues that need action now such as the crackdown on those eejits from Saturday – unfortunately it seems that our relative recent success has brought back some of the old guard. (I wonder did they get a refund on their England shirts) I hadn’t previously read some of the comments listed by P MC and admit that they made for uncomfortable reading….

  • Alan Anderson

    So then after all that by and large we agree!! Funny this little island its like were preset to argue!!

    Many nationalists will still not subscribe to IFA after the point which they implement the above agreed points but much like the PSNI after time it will become acceptable to follow IFA.

    I would advocate a FAI-IFA amagamation, where the IFA took all of ulster and possibly connacht, and formed on provincial basis, more or less in the same vein as the IRFU. But thats not the discussion, improving soccers profile is in NI, and we agree on the main points, which is by itself positive.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Democratic

    Very well put conciliatory sentiments.

    >>it is difficult for the majority of NI fans who do hold allegience to GSTQ and their own flag to particpate in discussions about scrapping them as if the were either wrong or sectarian – they are not.<

  • Doctor Who

    Billy, Prince Eoghan

    “I think the word is improvement not difference and there is no doubt that NI support was in dire need of improvement”

    The particular award was not associated in any way about improvement in suppporters attitudes. It was UEFA endorsed, but that´s not to say that NI fans have not generally improved over the last 7 years.

    You both go on to mention that I deny that NI have ever had any problem with the actions of their support. Please can you point to where I have said this, this is just not true.

    Why do wish to make something outta nowt, over this minor incident in Riga. Yes five arrests including one Latvian. I heard no sectarian singing in the ground and neither did you guys. There was plenty of Union flags, Ulster flags and indeed St. Patricks crosses. Why where you not offended by the many Ulster Flags on display at the recent Ireland v Italy rugby match at Ravenhill? There was even Union Flags there too.

    Prince

    You make a good point about flags and regalia in Scotland. If you had ever been to Landsdowne road at an ROI game you would have come across an equal amount of Celtic tops etc. Maybe the ROI fans need to take a good look at their identidy. There was also of course the idiot stood outside Croke Park with the banner “Say Know To Foreign Sports”, while sporting the hooped top of Glasgow Celtic.

    The point here is there are many varying ways to express your Ulster identidy. Personally I would like to see an end to the playing of GSTQ, and I think the last time it will be played at an NI match will be the last match in this campaign against Spain. Flags I see less of a problem with as Windsor is awash with Green and White anyway, again personally I would never carry a Union Flag to a game as it is not solely representing Northern Ireland, besides I don´t need a flag of any sort to endorse my Nationality.

    I would like to see a new flag for NI which was acceptable to all sides. A St. Patricks cross on a green background with the red hand in the middle would be my choice. This of course would be unacceptable to Nationalists as anything that remotely offers legitamacy to Northern Ireland is offensive to them. Even though they proactively administer government in NI under the supervision of the British constitution

    If you read the comments on OWC you will see that the true NI fans are truly embarrassed by the very small amount and tiny minded phillistines that still hang on and give people like mcswiney a reason to live.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Hiya Doc

    It is clear that there is plenty of room for manoeuvre on this subject, sometimes it just needs calm unemotional dialogue.

    >>You both go on to mention that I deny that NI have ever had any problem with the actions of their support. Please can you point to where I have said this, this is just not true.<

  • Dissenter

    Prince Eoghan

    Your pal who wears an England top, refuses to wear a Scotland top because it ‘detracts from his Britishness’ yet is happy to wear the shirts of Linfield & N. Ireland, is one seriously confused and messed-up individual…as we say in Norn Iron, he really needs to take a big wise-up tablet!

    …of course lets not forget that those wearing emerald green N. Ireland tops have had hassle in the past from brain-dead kick-the-pope-ers who think they’re “fenian-lukkin” shirts…

    Such f***-wits really deserve our pity so rather than waste our time worrying about them, lets just get on with supporting our fellow-countrymen whether they play for N. Ireland or the Republic…

  • Garcia

    My sincere apologies for my behaviour last night. I have always enjoyed slugger for the debate but I got wound up by some of the personal insults and really shouldnt have. Very embarrassed to say the least and will take my leave now.

    Sorry again Mick et al.

  • páid

    Democratic,

    I share your suspicions.

  • tom

    if Garcia is banned how can he post ??

  • willowfield

    PRINCE EOGHAN

    Funny you should mention Ireland games and Celtic tops, I was in Dublin supporting Scotland with a few pals who would happily cheer both teams. We had to calm down a fellow tartan army member who was berating someone wearing a Celtic top, his crime was wearing team colours at a national game. Of course the guy wearing the Celtic top turned out to be a bemused Ireland fan

    They wear Celtic tops at rugby internationals, too?

    ALAN ANDERSON

    I see Alan Anderson failed, when challenged, to offer any evidence for his bizarre statement earlier in the thread.

    He claimed that “in the early 1900’s the people of Dublin (protestand [sic] and catholic) were begging for soccer and by all accounts the initiative was with the IFA to provide them with it, the IFA failed … again, because it was stuck in its sectarian quango. The FAI subsequently was forced to leave to provide quality and open games administration”. Yet we know that the IFA staged internationals and cup finals in Dublin and admitted to membership in 1892 the Leinster FA which was responsible for organising and promoting football in Dublin.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>They wear Celtic tops at rugby internationals, too?< >he really needs to take a big wise-up tablet!<

  • Pounder

    I think it’s very unfortunate that with the success of Northern Ireland the glory hounds and their sectarian knuckle dragging has returned. As pointed out in a previous thread the IFA have actually taken great measures to attempt to kick out sectarianism. In perticular the procedures Linfield have introduced which really impressed me.

    I don’t think it’s fair to tar all Norn Iron fans with the same brush. Many of them have been there through thick and thin. And trust me the thin was very bad. But I do urge the real Northern Ireland fans to do what ever they can to make these Johnny Come Latelys feck off back to whence they came.

  • Cromwell

    I’m just back from Riga, our crowd had a guy from Cork( Norn Irons his second team) & another called Sean( Norn Irons his one & only) from a nationalist background & they both had an amazing time & werent offended by anyone, & I bet some of you on here really hate that, but anyhow…..

    “Football fans in; some of them get blocked & act like dickheads shocker!”

    Usual suspects above in;”fill Slugger full of made up hypocritical sh*te for no other reason than they hate Northern Ireland shocker!”

    I had a great time, hope all of you nay-sayers had a terrible one living in your narrow little minds.

  • poodler

    I’ve a good feeling that we’re gonna beat Iceland and the Czechs will bounce the Republic 3-0 Momma told me there’d be days like this!

  • A N Other

    Wales just hopped the Slavaks 5-2 at home.

    Kinda puts our performance last Saturday night into even greater perspective!

    …Given we’re 1-0 down already!

  • Doctor Who

    Well looks like I won´t be wearing the lederhosen next June.

    Desperately unlucky, but you have to take the chances.

    Worthington got the tactics a bit wrong particularly with bizarre substituions. Two points from these games would not have been a disaster, but two needless own goals have scuppered that.

  • A N Other

    We’re also pretty much out.

    Great line from Eamonn Dunphy, “Would let him (Stan) drive the train to Cork, Bill?? Would ya?!?”

    Sums it up really.

  • kensei

    I don’t actually blame Stan. It was a terribly frustrating display, and simply boils down just a lack of a quality in key areas. When we went to ten men it didn’t seem to make much difference: the Czechs always looked like they had a spare man in defense anyway. There was a lethargy or something about the team that was a bit annoying. We definitely lack a Roy Keane or even a Matt Holland that can talk control of the game in the midfield, and last ball in the final third was woeful. We had two absolutely golden chances that a team set on qualification would have buried too – Kevin Doyle’s at the end of the first and Cech’s spill.

    For all that it wasn’t a terrible performance: the Czechs had the better of it but weren’t that hot, really, and we had a harsh sending off. 0-0 or 1-1 and you’d have thought it a fair result. Still that would have been no use and the problem was the pressure we put on ourselves by screwing up early on. We need to focus on winning the remaining matches and praying for a decent draw in the WC qualifiers now.

  • páid

    WTF has driving the train to Cork got to do with it?

    Dublincentric Dunphy said Stan couldn’t just go from being player to manager. Brady looked shifty, Giles said “I did” and what about erm…Keano?

    Dunphy was asked for a prediction before the game. He bottled it.

    He played internationals years ago, never played in the Premiership, but reinvents himself every 2 years as an expert with a spell of controversy.

    A dictionary definition of a gobshite.

  • Cromwell

    Dunhpy just hates Stan cos he’s a prod!!!!;¬)