Far too soon to say..

UTV records some of the events of the first 100 days of the “indigenous” deal.. and the First Minister, the DUP’s Ian Paisley, has taken the opportunity to talk to his flock.. Meanwhile the BBC’s Martina Purdy notes that, in preparation for some later reports, she has already interviewed Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams “who sounded more negative than positive at first”.. ANYhoo… always willing to help, I can point out again that the quoted “someone” was, in fact, Zhou Enlai. Adds One of those later reports I mentioned..

, , ,

  • Yokel

    Paisley is just loving this, the old codger.

    Still I can’t help but think what does he know that we don’t.

  • joeCanuck

    Hasn’t he already told us what he knows? That the Plan B presented to him by Tony was totally unpalatable.

  • Dewi

    “The Democratic Unionist Party is to block any bid to have an Irish Language Act passed in the Northern Ireland Assembly, according to a letter signed by party leader the Rev Ian Paisley.”

    No matter what the content of said Act – strange.

  • Yokel

    JoeCanuck

    That wouldnt have him smiling.

  • joeCanuck

    It would if the present arrangement makes him think that he is N.I.’s political as well as religious saviour.

  • DK

    So – how would you rate the ministers? Here is my spot rating:

    Ian/Martin (FM/DFM): Good – excellent image for NI
    Peter Robinson (Finance): Good – liked the way he was prepared to slap everyone down for getting giddy over spending.
    Conor Murphy (Reg. Devel.): Average – removed water charges, probably
    Alene Foster (Environment): Average – reasonable response to floods
    Nigel Dodds (Enterprise): Average – economy seems good.
    Edwin Poots (Culture): Good – has met challenges
    Michelle Gildernew (Agri.): Good – kept export ban away and averted financial crisis
    Margaret Ritchie (Social Dev.): Good – faced off UDA
    Caitriona Ruane (Education): Poor – nothing on 11+ and facing a strike
    Reg Empey (Employment): Poor – dithering
    MIchael McGimpsey (Health): Average – low profile

  • Rory

    I notice DK that Peter Robinson’s slapdown of overspending did not include the additional £5M he signed off on to provide no-questions-asked ex-gratia payments to any who alleged to have suffered even minimal property damage as a result of recent wet weather conditions.

    In order to assist desperate householders, crippled by the cost of drying out slightly damp mops, he generously arranged for the dosh to be collected at a leisure centre on production of a utility bill and photo ID.

    Cetainly the more than 350 recipients from his East Belfast constituency will have reason to praise the minister’s willingness to temper hardheadedness with bounteous mercy.

  • Insider

    DK

    Fait assessment – although for some reason I have a soft spot for Poots and Gildernew.

  • Yokel

    Joe

    Well he always thought he was the saviour…

    From what I hear there never was a real Plan B created at all but it was a useful stick.

  • New Yorker

    How do you rate the present ministers compared to their previous British counterparts?

  • CTN

    I don’t expect the Irish Language Act to be implemented unless there is another side deal.

    Empty heads McGuinness and Adams obtained no guarantees of for the Irish Language pre and post St Andrews and as usual the doc and co have left them in the halfpenny spot begging for crumbs…

  • Sean

    CTN
    I think you will find that if storomont doesn’t pass it then Whitehall will and then simply impose it on northern Ireland

    The question is which of the wee docs pet projects will the shinners kill in retaliation

    Its called a mutual veto for a reason

  • Turgon

    DK,

    I would seriously down rate McGimpsey. He has put on hold (for yet more consultation) plans to abolish the four health boards and replace them with one (a fairly sensible idea) whilst at the same time continuing with the greatly reduced number of trusts which has essentially resulted in a take over of a number of trusts by others and created the largest health trust in the UK (Belfast).

    On Paisley we are always told Plan B was too awful to imagine. So Paisley sold out most if not all the DUP committments because he was scared of the alternative. That is not the Paisley of the last 30 plus years. Age must truly have wearied him or (more likely) the lust for power excited him (or maybe it is the new hat).

  • Pete Baker

    “if storomont doesn’t pass it then Whitehall will”

    Sean

    It’s a devolved matter.

    Whitehall, or even the Houses of Parliament, can’t legislate on it.

  • Dawkins

    Turgon,

    “That is not the Paisley of the last 30 plus years. Age must truly have wearied him or (more likely) the lust for power excited him (or maybe it is the new hat).”

    I used to believe it was the lust for power. Lately though I keep thinking that he may well be putting his house in order. I won’t go so far as to say he’s finally realized the error of his ways, but that he imagines by being decent for a change he can earn brownie points with his deity — whoever or whatever that may be.

  • Dewi

    Pete – I know it’s getting boring but for the life of me I can’t see how an ILA can be develved when it could effect UK & NI wide institutions like the DVLA fr’instance. How can Stormont legislate for them ?

  • Dewi

    Develved ? – devolved sorry

  • Pete Baker

    Dewi

    You mean like Welsh, for example..

  • Comrade Stalin

    DK, that’s a very concise and accurate assessment of the talents in our government. The Ian/Martin thing has all been very positive. At the same time though, the executive is very much in a honeymoon. Soon the issue of taxation (water charges and rates) will come up again. We will have to pay our way, and our ministers are going to have some tough decisions to make.

    The Irish Language Act thing is bollocks and needs to die, really quickly. That discussion is distracting us from more serious matters in the real world, such as devolving policing and justice powers quickly.

  • Sean

    Pete B
    I will bow to your superior knowledge of the machinations of devolved government, but having witnessed the machinations of the british government I would be purely surprised if they havent left a back door open to pull the levers of power in the direction they want

    Infact its my GUESS that this is exactly why paisley has issued this statement. He knows he won’t have to back down and when the irish languages act is imposed on northern Ireland and he will be able to stump up to the pulpit and rail away at the governments arbitrary rule of the six counties.

    This would fit nicely into many peoples theory that he has become an Ulster Nationalist as opposed to a unionist

  • Pete Baker

    Sean

    Don’t bother guessing.

    The Sewel Convention is clear. And the previous Secretary of State was clearer..

    “Assuming that restoration happens—as I hope that it will—on 26 March, of course it remains the case that, although Parliament is sovereign, we would not legislate on a devolved matter, except with the Assembly’s acceptance and agreement.”

  • Sean

    Pete
    Sorry but accepting the word of a politician or a government for that matter is at best naieve. Especially the EX-secretary of state.

    I have made my prediction and you have made yours lets let the months play out and see what comes.

    I say at best paisley abstains from voting or using his veto and at worst has a road to damascus conversion. But I will bet 20 pounds this time next year you have a ILA

  • Pete Baker

    Sean

    Your lack of understanding of the Sewel Convention, what it actually means, is clear – not to mention what constrictions are faced by a politician speaking in the House.

    Your prediction of an ILA is irrelevant in those circumstances as it doesn’t rely on the statements quoted but on a potential change in stance by the DUP – ie outside of the machinations of central government.

  • Dewi

    Pete – but how do u get your driving license in gaelic unless it’s a westminster act ?

  • Sean

    Pete
    then accept my wager and be done with it I have already bowed to your superior knowledge on the way government is supposed to work.

    I just dont accept many governments are good at keeping their word nor are they particularily inclined to follow the rules they themselves legislated

  • Pete Baker

    Dewi

    How do you get your driving licence in Welsh?

    Sean

    If you bow to my “superior knowledge on the way government is supposed to work” then you should understand the point I’ve been making in regard to the ILA and any legislation in that area being entirely dependent on a change in attitude from the DUP.

  • Sean

    I do understand your point Pete and I am merely putting my point forward that paisley knows full well there is an ILA coming one way or another so he has positioned himself to play the poor put upon leader of unionism forced by London into begrudgingly accepting an ILA. Should play huge with the hard line voters all the way through to the soft UUP voters. Either that or he will have to back down and eat a lot of crow, Me I kinda hope for this result but I am a bit of a mean prick

    If I am wrong its a free 20 for you, payable in cash or donation to charity your choice. Me if I win give 20 pounds to the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children in your name as the tax receipt will do me no good and any chance to take a penny away from the government, any government, is Okay with me.

    the wager is 20 pounds that by August 16, 2008 there will be in place an ILA

  • Pete Baker

    “paisley knows full well there is an ILA coming one way or another”

    Evidence that you don’t, actually, understand at all, Sean.

  • joeCanuck

    Certainly the more than 350 recipients from his East Belfast constituency will have reason to praise the minister’s willingness to temper hardheadedness with bounteous mercy.

    Do I detect a slight note of cynicism here Rory?

  • dewi

    I have a Welsh driving licence – (Trwydded Yrru) and also did my driving test in Welsh. Can’t see how u can get Gaelic equivalent without UK legislation.

  • Sean

    No Pete I do understand your point I just fundamentally disagree with it

  • Pete Baker

    *shakes head*

  • Rory

    Do I detect a slight note of cynicism here Rory?

    I don’t know, Joe. Do you? You surely know yourself best.

    It’s not really cynicism it is more a quiet acceptance of social reality. Politicians are corrupt as a matter of their function within social democracy much as lawyers and journalists have a higher calling as professional liars. Now don’t get me wrong, this is not me jumping on a moral high horse – most, if not all men lie – I do it myself from from time to time- but I simply don’t have the skills necessary to be a professional liar as is necessary in these two callings, and pretty helpful for politicians who often these days serve their apprenticeship in law or journalism.

    Any way, not to worry, I have had my daughter understand from that early age when she first asked, “Who can I marry, daddy?” and I replied, “Why, darling, you are a free soul. You may marry anyone you choose, but beware of politicians, lawyers and journalists, for lying is the mainstay of their very liveliehood”.

    With a bit of luck she’ll fall for a handsome Polish plumber.

  • Comrade Stalin

    so he has positioned himself to play the poor put upon leader of unionism forced by London into begrudgingly accepting an ILA.

    It’s insane. Republicans so frickin’ desperate to have their goddam driving licenses in Irish such that they will appeal to the British government (who will obviously extract something in return) in order to get it – right over the heads of the locally elected politicians here in Ireland.

    [received my new British passport the other day. Unionists will not be pleased .. the front page includes a description of it in Gaelic!]

  • DK

    “It’s insane. Republicans so frickin’ desperate to have their goddam driving licenses in Irish such that they will appeal to the British government (who will obviously extract something in return) in order to get it”

    And you know that what the British Gov will get in exchange will be far more meaningful than a few bits of translation that no-one will use. Although it is hard to think of what there is left for Republicans to give up – demands for investigations into collusion maybe?

  • Dewi

    I know I’m getting a little obsessive on this and will stop after this. The point is purely technical. Our Welsh Language Act is a Westminster measure – the reason is simply that it places duties on UK & NI wide institutions like the DVLA fr’instance.

    Despite Pete’s views on it being a devolved matter I can’t see Stormont having powers over such bodies.

    Joseph – Scots Gaelic though ?

  • joeCanuck

    Fair enough Rory.
    It was an unusual response for a Finance Minister to pay up right away and I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
    Hopefully there will be a wee bit of analysis done to see if there were any significant amount of greedy buggers who would preclude such a thing happening in the future.

  • Alan

    Pretty accurate assessment on our politicians performance in Government by DK. Would have to agree that Doc&Marty look super confident and Peter is demonstrating the control needed for a Finance Minister. On the other Minister’s it would seem Poots is prepared to face up to the hard issues and Gildernew has done better than I expected. The rest are just ticking over.

  • Sean

    Comrade Stalin
    It’s insane. Republicans so frickin’ desperate to have their goddam driving licenses in Irish such that they will appeal to the British government (who will obviously extract something in return) in order to get it – right over the heads of the locally elected politicians here in Ireland.

    The deal has already been done and what extracting that happened has already happened. Its called the St. Andrews agreement and your beloved leader has long ago signed off on it

  • CTN

    Sean while you are bowing to Pete I will remind you that I stated a new ILA could be imposed by way of a another “side deal” similar to St Andrews proportions.

    The double veto you mentioned would be incongruous here as this new act would be imposed by Westminister.

    Better negotiators than McGuinness would have obtained this act for certain when the IRA’s arsenal was cashed in rather than leave more battles and uncertainty ahead.

    I imagine stal’s passport has a reference in Scots gaelic as the ILA has not even been brought into the assembly for debate yet by Pootsy.

  • hib

    I’d advise wannabe punters to hold of with the betting c’mons as this site is not authorised for mediumship in that regard.

  • Turgon

    Sean,

    I seem to be agreeing with you on a lot of things recently which is really very worrying.

    I agree with Pete that the ILA can be easily blocked by a DUP veto. Remember, however, whatever happens Westminister is still soverign and no legislation passed in Westminister can tie it from further contradictory changes.

    As such if Westminister imposed such legislation what could the DUP do?

    As CTN suggests a further side deal could be done by the government if it deemed it expedient.

    Also of course if the ILA was deemed a human right then the House of Lords could impose such a thing.

    An ILA via Westminister let alone the House of Lords would have a certain irony for republicans.

    I am not a lawyer and could be wrong but I think the above is correct.

  • Sean

    What gfives you the impresion paisley wants another side deal. He WANTS to play the martyr for votes, this might well be the final card in his deck for destroying the UUP for good

  • CTN

    You are reading the game well Turg.

    Of course a clever provo could wind up unionism about the act- make them look ungenerous in refusing it- then avail of the EU recommendation that Irish, Scots Gaelic Welsh and Cornish are protected within UK jurisdiction, then try and force it through the back door in Westminister.

    A complicated journey perhaps and one that does not guarantee the proposed act resulting in Irish sign posts inter alia but one wonders have Dumb and Dumber thought of this since they didn’t manage to pin the ILA down at Good Friday or St Andrews.

    It would be a good opportunity for them to purge some of that recently more highlighted imbecility…

  • CTN

    Sean- What makes you think that I think Paisley would want another side deal?

    Side deals between the provies and Brown don’t have to include another party.

    Another side deal is necessary for an ILA to be implemented as the DUP will block this one through the assembly.

    As for Paisley’s martyr pitch- he doesn’t look like much of a martyr to me in fact he looks likes he’s won the lotto and just can’t stop smiling everywere he goes!

  • Turgon

    CTN,

    I wonder if Adams and McGuiness have already got an outline side deal re ILA. By conceeding it at St. Andrew’s they may have gained someting else or avoided something they did not want.

    Then they can have a nice campaign re ILA when they have exhausted collusion for a while just as they have temporarily given up on unionist engagement. (remember all those republican leaders and indeed posters here a few months ago telling us how important unionist engagement was).

    When they fail to get an ILA from Paisley they can denounce him a bit proving that they have not gone soft and finally get their ILA from Westminister or House of Lords.

    The person / group who could loose in this is Paisley / DUP who would look as if they could not prevent ILA. Though of course having it imposed would look nothing like as bad as accepting it spontaneously.

  • CTN

    Turg- these guys are totally incompetent but in order to strengthen their weakening standing within republicanism it is possible that the brits may impose an Irish Language act of sorts to make them more palatable to their hungry grass roots.

  • Briso

    Posted by CTN on Aug 16, 2007 @ 12:43 PM
    Better negotiators than McGuinness would have obtained this act for certain when the IRA’s arsenal was cashed in rather than leave more battles and uncertainty ahead.

    I suspect Marty Mc G couldn’t give a shit about the ILA.

  • Sean

    Ctn
    Yeah paisley is grinning like a cheshire cat…. while hes busy groveling to marty about not vetoing his press releases

  • CTN

    Wow! what a difference a vetoed press release makes when you have the IRA disarmed, disbanded and humiliated, the new British Army 3?th Infantry’s Irish Brigade, First Ministers office- where you can veto everything including the meaningless cross border bodies, SF grovelling on the PSNI boards looking for crumbs of change- but above all British rule guaranteed for generations in good old Stormont complete with Union Jacks aflying over super provie marty’s office and statue of Carson as implacable as Micelle Gildernew’s determination to use the term “Northern Ireland” ad nausem in spite of its repugnance to her colleagues Ruane and Murphy.

    What a shambles the provos truly are….

  • Dawkins

    I didn’t know Michelle Gildernew was a provo. I really must keep up to speed.

  • Sean

    Yep CTN

    meanwhile the RUC is where? The home guard? How about the Drumcree? what about the IRA openly marching down the centre of Belfast?

    Maybe paisley will be the grand marshall of the gay parade next year, I mean he’s already funding it? or perhaps the 11+ will be re-instated! Not!!!! How about relying on the republic for the new roads you desperately need ?

    lol youre going down a blind alley CTN one side has no advantage over the other

  • CTN

    Thats an umbrella slang term for SF & PIRA Dawk- I’m sure everyone knows she isn’t a military provo- especially if she’s constantly parroting the term “Northern Ireland” like something from the Spion Kop in Windsor park…

  • CTN

    1 RUC- rearmed and renamed PSNI- 70% of recruits who left before passing out were catholics claiming same bigoted force.
    2 Their former photographer forced out and awarded damages because he married a catholic and was branded a traitor and his wife called a “whore”.
    3. PSNI Recently claimed they will not co-operate in Shoot to kill investigations.
    4. MI5 headquarters moved to Co. Down, MI5 will be accountable to no-one.
    5. IRA disbanded and disarmed, if they ever march during the timeframe of this status quo it will only be as a toothless bunch of marchers who’s leadership administer british rule.
    6. Drumcree victory due to nationalist residents of Garvaghy road not the provisional movement.
    7. British military cut backs have seen dozens of regiments disbanded throughout the UK including the Black Watch in Scotland- the RIR home battalions are still intact and the Infantry have created an new Irish brigade based in the north.

    As unionists enjoy british rule in Stormont, british police and military on the streets and republicans are reduced to administering british rule with an disarmed and disbanded army, unionism has a clear advantage.

    Sorry to hurt you with the facts Sean but under the bungling McGuinness/Adams autocracy your dreams are as good as its ever gonna get….

  • hib

    The next thing the provies will be claiming to have converted Paisley to homosexuality.

    Big deal the south paid for a couple of cross border roads- this kinda thing happens all over the world between neighbouring states.

    Still no executive power in the north/south council and the provies under the butchers apron like a bunch of puppets.

  • Dawkins

    Hib,

    “The next thing the provies will be claiming to have converted Paisley to homosexuality.”

    So who sez he isn’t already homosexual?

    “Still no executive power in the north/south council…”

    At the moment I’m more concerned about the non-scrapping of automatic 50% remission, even for paedophiles and other dangerous criminals.

    I seem to recall a certain David Hanson promising to sign this into law during his gig. Has anyone ever reminded him of this? And wtf is it taking so long now? What has priority, an Irish Language Act? Jeeze.

  • DK

    Sean/Hib/CTN

    I think perhaps the point is that both unionists and nationalists are happy with the present situation. If it changes so that one side starts bossing the other about then you might have a case, but if the best you can do is rant on at exact percentages of catholics in the PSNI and the low profile of the British/IRA armies then I think you need a new cause. What about the one of developing a peaceful and prosperous Northern Ireland. You can call it the bastradised 6 counties if you like, but lets make it a nice place to live in as a priority, then worry about the increasingly irrelevant border.

  • CTN

    Yeah DK and it’ll be a wee bit nicer of we lay of the swear words and ranting accusations.

    I would have thought a lack of respect for people with alternative viewpoints didn’t help things either….

  • hib

    Dawkins- We’re all concerned about crims and pervs but this thread pertains to the legislation around the ILA and its likelyhood of implementation- provie exaggerations/delusions re north/south executive power call into play their overall analytical flaws and how that effects the status of this embryonic ILA and its potential implementation or non-implementation.

    Watch it with the potentially defamatory remarks re Paisley by the by- mine are clearly entirely sarcastic, humorous, ironic and hypothetical- yours however are on dangerous ground.

  • joeCanuck

    “You can understand perfectly, if you give your mind to it”.
    Lord Kelvin

  • Dawkins

    Hib,

    Silly me, I thought this thread pertained to the first 100 days of the assembly. I refer you to these lines from the linked UTV page:

    There have also been a number of successes for the executive – most notably significant job announcements by the Bank of Ireland and Aer Lingus and the securing of an exemption for Northern Ireland`s beef and dairy industry from the ban on UK food exports following the foot and mouth outbreak.

    However, the executive is also facing a number of crucial decisions in the autumn on the future of water charges, domestic rates, a proposed stadium and conflict transformation centre on the site of the former Maze Prison, academic selection for post-primary schools and the shape of local government.

    See what I mean? If 50% remission was discussed, UTV doesn’t mention it, the abovementioned crucial issues apparently taking precedence.

    My remark re Paisley wasn’t defamatory, it being a question. BTW one doesn’t defame a peep by identifying him as homosexual. There’s also the scientifically proven fact that every one of us is homosexual to a greater or lesser extent.

  • hib

    Without being pedantic the ILA debate is a key issue within the 100 day context and the one to which sean, CTN and I were referring, not the linked utv site- which you admit yourself does not contain your referred discussion.

    It certainly is defamatory to label someone a homosexual and a reasonable person would not consider it fair to single out one person for libel in this regard

    Using a “scientific” theory to dilute your view- that everyone else is a just a little similar to the victim of your remark as a comparator is a most unsafe defence and could be argued to be oxymoronic.

    Your remark contained just a little too much innuendo to be considered fair comment IMHO…

  • Dawkins

    Sorry, Hib, but I must disagree on both counts. Homosexual is no longer illegal in the UK — it’s certainly to our shame that it ever was. So to brand someone homosexual is not libel.

    Re the ILA as being the sole topic of this thread, if you look at the first page it seems the 100 days were the topic, with one poster even drawing up an order of merit of MLAs.

    Also Comrade Stalin offered this on 15 August:

    The Irish Language Act thing is bollocks and needs to die, really quickly. That discussion is distracting us from more serious matters in the real world, such as devolving policing and justice powers quickly.

    The Irish Language Act thing is bollocks and needs to die, really quickly. That discussion is distracting us from more serious matters in the real world, such as devolving policing and justice powers quickly.

    To which I say, hear hear.

    And you may wish to do a little research before you post something like this:

    Using a “scientific” theory to dilute your view- that everyone else is a just a little similar to the victim of your remark as a comparator is a most unsafe defence and could be argued to be oxymoronic.

  • Dawkins

    Apologies for the double quote, and “homosexual” in line one should read “homosexuality”. It’s a busy day for me :0)

  • hib

    Your problem is I am responding from Dublin were the offended party can bring an action.

    Your on the Internet Dawk- not the Belfast High Street- you can be sued by a victim in the relevant jurisdiction it need not be UK.

    Also your misquote re the “sole topic of the thread”- I stated it was a “key issue within the 100 day context”.

    You now stand corrected on both counts.

  • Dawkins

    Hib,

    “Your problem is I am responding from Dublin were the offended party can bring an action.”

    Er, not exactly. Although it may seem like only yesterday to some, it’s actually all of 14 years since homosexual activity ceased to be illegal in the Republic.

    “Your on the Internet Dawk- not the Belfast High Street- you can be sued by a victim in the relevant jurisdiction it need not be UK.”

    Zounds! So Paisley’s taken up residence down south now has he? The crafty old bugger gentleman. Next you know he’ll be taking his seat in the Seanad.

    Or do you mean something else entirely?

    But to clarify all this slander and libel stuff. A homosexual is not a criminal therefore to dub someone gay is not a libellous offence. One can as well call someone “a clown” for example.

    Paisley infamously called one of the popes the Antichrist. That’s OK too. To be the Antichrist is not to be a criminal, so no slander took place. Apart from that, because the Antichrist is a mythical being, it would be just as actionable to call Paisley an abominable snowman.

    “Also your misquote re the “sole topic of the thread”- I stated it was a “key issue within the 100 day context”.”

    Yikes! That’s three serious errors in my one post. I really must be working too hard. Will you ever forgive me for typing “sole” instead of “key”?

    I do hope that’s not a heinous crime in the Republic, is it? :0)

  • hib

    Dawk- in the republic it is a civil offence to maliciously claim someone is a homosexual although the act of homosexuality is no longer a criminal offence

    This is the jurisdiction were I have and Doctor Paisley could witness the publication of the potentially defamatory innuendo and as such this is the jurisdiction were any alleged tortfuser could be sued like in David Trimble’s case re “The Committee” were he successfully actioned retailers outside the UK.

    I don’t wish to overstate this issue and am not trying to be a smart alec for kicks but it is good to know were the lines are even if you are not acting maliciously…

  • Prince Eoghan

    In Scots and English law of delict it is no longer defamatory to allege that someone is homosexual in itself. There was a civil case involving the alleged homosexuality of Robbie Williams that he won. His team took the line that the newspaper was calling him a liar and thus he was selling himself as a fraud to his mostly female fans. There was a famous case where Liber Archie won a civil case alleging that he was a homosexual, as it was a criminal offence in those days.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4502834.stm

    I’d reckon Irish law would find Scots/English law persausive in these matters.

  • hib

    Well spotted Prince- however here in the 26 it is still a civil offence of “strict liability” (re Rylands and Fletcher) to even mistakenly publish a wrongful insinuation that someone is a homosexual.

    Doctor Paisley would suffer serious consequences if after years of denouncing homosexual conduct to the Free Presbyterian flock his character was allegedly harmed through a wreckless innuendo of such a nature.

    The Robbie Williams case could be persuasive in this regard but our friend Liber Archie’s I fear would be too wide.

    I have no problem with people of a homosexual nature and have already stated I do not wish to overstate this issue as it is not the subject of the thread.

    However is is good to exercise a degree of caution when speculating on the possible sexual behavior of politicians and clergy when on the internet…

  • Dawkins

    Much food for thought here. Maybe someone can initiate a thread to discuss possible libellous remarks on Slugger? It seems a little unfair to hijack this one.

    Hib,

    “Dawk- in the republic it is a civil offence to maliciously claim someone is a homosexual although the act of homosexuality is no longer a criminal offence.”

    I’ll take your word for it. Nonetheless an amusing thought occurs to me. It’s unlikely but possible that the judge or magistrate is gay. And what if there’s a jury with Senator David Norris as chairman, with several other gay men as jurors. What do you think the outcome would be?

    Re Trimble’s suit, he was being associated with murderers, not really in the same league as your “Doctor” Paisley. In fact Ian might be on shaky ground as a plaintiff with dodgy credentials. Just a thought.

    Prince Eoghan,

    Your comparison with Robbie Williams is interesting too. I guess it was easy for him to show that his livelihood was threatened, although for the life of me I can’t imagine how a chap can prove he isn’t gay.

    As you point out, Liver Ache was fingered for what was then an illegal act, much like poor Oscar Wilde.

  • hib

    Dawk- I will not get into purile speculation that judges or jurys in libel cases could be dominated by a sexuality which is circa 10% of the population.

    In Trimble’s case the comparator here is a tortfeasor’s vulnerability to an action outside UK jurisdiction whence making transnational or international publications and not the case’s subject matter…

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    Didn’t Jason Donovan successfully sue The Face magazine for alleging he was gay?

  • Dawkins

    Hib,

    Dawk- I will not get into purile speculation that judges or jurys in libel cases could be dominated by a sexuality which is circa 10% of the population.

    Not speculation at all but a hypothetical situation. What if the judge is gay? Do you know the sexuality of every Irish judge? And you’ve no basis whatsoever in asserting that gays represent 10% of the population. Never heard of closeted gays? There may be many, many more than you or I think.

    I’m afraid I didn’t understand your second paragraph. A translation would be appreciated.

  • Sean

    Hib
    Have they ever decided legally where such a trial would take place?

    Regardless where it was viewed by said paisley(puts a whole new meaning to that last name) the publishing jurisdiction would surely be the what ever jurisdiction the poster was in when he published the potentially defamatory remarks

    Due to the international aspect of the internet it would incomprehensible that it was the jurisdiction of what ever country you were in when you read such remarks. What would stop some one from going to what ever country had the best laws and then becoming offended in a friendlier jurisdiction

    The only other possible option would be the jurisdiction of whatever country the blog server exists in. This is why I believe most blog servers are located in the US withy its more liberal freedom of speach statutes and its tougher slander and libel laws

  • hib

    Dawk- the sexuality of any given judge should not effect his or her sense of jurisprudence e.g. if a gay porn star is rumored to be straight it would have similar financial repercussions ie Robbie Williams except in reverse- your slur on the gay community’s ability to separate their sense of justice from their sexuality in a case like this is partisan and outrageous.

    The gay community are clearly a very small sexual minority internationally and the active gay community smaller again, the same scientific theorists that you have quoted put it at circa 10%.

    The second paragraph is easily discernible.

    Sean- Of course the offended party can take their action in the most plaintiff user friendly jurisdiction the alleged defamation is published.

    I agree the US is the safest place to make a potentially defamatory publication, with its right to public knowledge culture- however if the publication is made in another jurisdiction the alleged offended party could take an action from there.

    In relation to your question have they ever decided where the location of an international defamation case should be settled- the answer is simple- the jurisdictions were the tortfeasors were found liable- don’t believe me check google.

  • CTN

    Sean- what do you mean “said paisley(puts a whole new meaning to that last name)”

  • hib

    Dunno bout you blogaddicts, but I’m headin out for the night satisfied my critics have been well advised in regard to their liability re this thread, which for the life of me I will never re-visit again.

    I don’t think I’ve ever been as bored since my student days…..

  • Dawkins

    What a shame now that Hib won’t be visiting here again. I’ll miss him.

    “I don’t think I’ve ever been as bored since my student days…..” he writes.

    I can well understand his boredom. I mean to say, the author of the following deathless, pithy, sub-Hemingway prose can only be used to the literary fast lane:

    “In Trimble’s case the comparator here is a tortfeasor’s vulnerability to an action outside UK jurisdiction whence making transnational or international publications and not the case’s subject matter…”

    Eat your heart out, Ali Smith.

  • Sean

    Hib
    I disagree libel and slander are non transfearable and re only applicable in the jurisdictiom of the Publisher ie ME

    If any one wants to sue me for libel or slander it is incumbent on them to attend my jurisdiction and attempt their best. but as paisley lacks any reputation in Canada he would be hard pressed to sue me for any amount. But as like a challenge and am more than used to being sued tell him I said ” I think he doth protest too much”

    Perhaps you are correct and paisle can sue as per his location but let him try, I await the results

    PS paisley = homosexual designer pattern

  • CTN

    Sean I doubt Paisley would take you or that comment seriously.

    However he does have a reputation in Canada – you might want to turn out to protest at the annual 12th March in Toronto- I believe it is quite large…

    Dawk- looks like hib has you caught on a point of tort law no matter how verbose- ball and not man an all that….

  • Sean

    CTN
    As I have stated before Toronto is neither the Centre of Canada nor the centre of the Universe despite their claims to both titles

    And yes I seem to remember he does have a reputation in Canada But isn’t it for blocking the investigation of paedofiles in his church in Canada? I seem to recall there was a bit of a kerfufle about that!

    And as I am nonreligious and Toronto is a thousand miles away(literally not metaphorically) I think I will pass on the opportunity to watch a bunch of fat blokes with boler hats taking a walk

  • Dawkins

    Sean,

    Hib’s gone. He can’t hear you now … possibly.

    That’s very interesting about paisley the pattern. Didn’t know that. It opens up all sorts of possibilities to style journos, doesn’t it?

    “Paisley is the new gay choice.”

    Oddly enough, though, when I googled “paisley pattern” it turned up this article from Time magazine dated 29 July 1966. I found it fascinating reading. It’s pre-Troubles and features Paisley as an emerging politician. Some even believed he’d run for Parliament — gosh. There were even shouts of “Paisley for Prime Minister.”

    How prescient it all was! With Mick’s indulgence for the use of his bandwidth I’ll share it here.

    Paisley’s Pattern

    For almost a year, Northern Ireland has been rocked by stabbings, shootings, bombings and riots that have left scores injured and three dead. Behind the trouble is a growing tension between Northern Ireland’s 1,250,000 Protestants loyal to the Queen and the country’s 500,000 Roman Catholics, who want closer ties with the Catholic-dominated Republic of Ireland. Last week Prime Minister Terence O’Neill’s government took its first legal action against the man who has stirred up much of the recent trouble. He is big, garrulous Rev. Ian Paisley, 40, leader of Northern Ireland’s Free Presbyterian Church.

    Religious antagonisms have long been strong in Ireland, especially since 1690, when Britain’s “Glorious Revolution” secured Protestant ascendancy to Ulster. To try to ease the old hatreds, Protestant O’Neill broke all precedent last year by inviting the Republic of Ireland’s Catholic Premier Sean Lemass to Belfast. It was then that Paisley, fearing a sellout to the Catholics, began stumping Ulster’s six counties, attacking everyone from the Pope (“old red socks”) to the Archbishop of Canterbury (“another traitor”). “O’Neill might as well try to stop Niagara Falls with a teaspoon.” Paisley stormed, “as try to stop our Protestant cause.” When Queen Elizabeth arrived in Belfast this month to dedicate a bridge, embittered Catholics promised retaliation; and sure enough, a twelve-pound chunk of concrete came crashing down on her car from a fourth-floor window on her parade route, luckily only denting the hood.

    Blaming his fellow Protestants for most of the violence, O’Neill outlawed an anti-Catholic band of hotheads called the Ulster Volunteer Force. Then the government ordered Paisley and six of his cohorts to stand trial on charges of unlawful assembly and inciting a riot last month in Belfast. Last week Paisley and five of his six companions were found guilty, ordered to pay a £30 ($84) fine and to promise to keep the peace for two years. When Paisley refused, he was ordered imprisoned for three months.

    “The latter-day Rome,” Paisley sneered to his followers before marching off to the jail, “once again dips her hands in the blood of saints, and is drunk with the blood of saints.” The saint would return, Paisley promised, and even run for Parliament. Within hours, fresh signs blossomed on buildings and sidewalks: “Paisley for Prime Minister.” And by week’s end, angry mobs of Protestants had taken to the streets, smashing windows, overturning cars, and battling police.

  • Dawkins

    CTN,

    “Dawk[ins]- looks like hib has you caught on a point of tort law no matter how verbose- ball and not man an all that….”

    I freely admit my ignorance of law, no sweat. However I do hope your “ball not man” charge isn’t aimed at me. I seem to recall that it was Hib who made the personal attacks. Take another look at the thread.

  • CTN

    Sean- I for one never claimed Toronto was the center of anywhere but I’m glad we both agree Paisley has a rep in Canada.

    Have you heard anymore about this supposed “informer” the DUP are going to allegedly “expose”?

    Dawk- Read hib’s blogs- a bit narky alright, but I think you crossed the line a little.

  • Dawkins

    CTN,

    “Dawk[ins]- Read hib’s blogs- a bit narky alright, but I think you crossed the line a little.”

    Explain please.

    And while you’re about it perhaps you can explain his statement I quoted above. Makes little sense to me even when I translate it into English. I think it’s the “whence” that throws me.

  • CTN

    You got personal re his style of writing after he left.

    I am not here to clarify other people’s blogs- it made sense to me- so go figure it out yourself….

  • Dewi

    Excellent Paisley article – thanks Dawkins.

    Pre troubles eh ?

    “Northern Ireland has been rocked by stabbings, shootings, bombings and riots that have left scores injured and three dead”

    And are the demographics right ? 1,250,000 Protestnts ?

  • Dawkins

    CTN,

    With respect, there’s your difficulty. I “attacked” Hib’s style of writing not Hib himself, therefore it wasn’t ad hominem, or man not ball.

    Example, I’m very fond of Roddy Doyle but I think his writing sucks.

  • Dawkins

    Dewi,

    I wondered too about the demographics.

  • CTN

    Dawk you got personal in an non-fond manner after he left- IMHO

  • CTN

    I too am bored with this thread which and am about to tuck into a nice Sunday roast chicken- toodle pip!

  • Dawkins

    CT,

    Again, I dealt with Hib’s prose not with Hib.

    Enjoy your lunch. Appen I’m having roast chicken too :0)