“Black armbands have a history.”

In the Irish Times, Susan McKay points out that tomorrow’s ‘March for Half-Truth’ by Sinn Féin is, in reality, their annual commemoration of “10 republicans who died on hunger strike in 1981, so to take part is to show solidarity with the IRA as well as with the victims of the British forces.” That places it in an area of activity identified previously by Liam Clark. Susan McKay also links in the on-again-off-again-on-again [but don’t tell anyone – Ed] deal over OTRs and she’s critical of the latest appropriation of victims

But what is the campaign for truth? Adams, who says he was never in the IRA, referred to the fact that some of the victims’ groups taking part in the march and rally are calling for “an international-based, independent truth commission”. He adds that this is something that Sinn Féin “will look carefully at”. But why the caution? Perhaps because although Sinn Féin needs to reassure the victims from its own community that it hasn’t left them behind, the truth is, it doesn’t want a truth commission any more than the British government does.

Remember the on-the-runs legislation a few years ago? Sinn Féin signed up for that to get its exiles back, and then had to abandon it when victims’ groups and the SDLP pointed out that this was a law that would make it impossible to pursue the truth about collusion. The party is not going to make that mistake again.

All the signs are that the British and Irish governments both take the shabby view that the new powersharing regime at Stormont is best protected by leaving the past alone for the foreseeable future.

Sinn Féin can safely seem to support calls for a commission, confident it isn’t going to happen.

McKay is not, as far as I can see, opposed to demanded the truth.. as I’ve noted out before..

Anyway, how can it possibly be right to ignore evidence of such corruption, and to refuse to learn the real history of the Troubles? The British will look bad, Sinn Féin has dirty hidden history and so has the DUP. But if our new democratic institutions aren’t strong enough to withstand the truth, they aren’t strong enough.

.. just opposed to demanding half-truth.

Black armbands have a history. Those campaigning to force Britain to tell the truth on its vicious part in the Northern violence need all the support they can get.

This is a just cause, and Sinn Féin’s appropriation of it serves it badly.

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  • Cruimh

    Would Gerry and Martin and all the others not still be bound by that spurious “code of honour” McGuinness used to avoid telling the truth at Saville ? That he was able to hide behind something that should never have been allowed means that there is no future for a truth commission – just lots of propaganda mileage for Gerry and the shinners in calling for the truth of what hapened to those at the top of THEIR hierarchy of victimhood, safe in the knowledge that nothing will actually come about.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Madradin.

    You wish!

    Pete.

    >>Sinn Féin has dirty hidden history and so has the DUP.< >Sinn Féin can safely seem to support calls for a commission, confident it isn’t going to happen.<

  • Shore Road Resident

    Hang on a minute here Prince – you reckon Sinn Fein is campaigning for a truth commission but only half-heartedly because they don’t want to annoy unionists too much in case it provokes their poor wee backward heads into bringing down the great Sinn Fein peace process?

    You really are a total fantasist.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Takes one to know one SRR!

    I honestly can’t think of any reason why Republicans would not push determinedly for one. Unless, as all the propagandists would wish us to believe that the Brits really have got so deep into the leadership as to expose it all. One way or the other bring it on!

  • Sean

    This is a just cause, and Sinn Féin’s appropriation of it serves it badly.

    Pete Baker @ 11:01 AM

    So Pete who else has even taken an interest in this cause?

    Surely the SDLP, who claim blood free hands, should be shouting from the rafters about this! This has a direct affect on the nationalist (and unionist communities if they would only admit it)and with no paramilitary connections this would be a good show piece for them. They could appear to actually care about the nationalist community instead of just being a bunch of appeasers. This is why SF has had such a great success against them, Sinn Fein are willing to stick their brass knecks out in support of the community while the SDLP plays turtle and retreats into their shell. You call it hypocracy I call it guts. SF know this can all come back to bite them on the ass but they are willing to take the chance because they know this issue needs to be dealt with

  • Shore Road Resident

    “honestly can’t think of any reason why Republicans would not push determinedly for one”

    – Then try thinking a little harder.

  • SF are at least attempting to redress the balance, having been the victims of Unionists and British Gov’t propaganda over the last 30/40 years.

    So that is to be welcomed, whether it leads to anything like a truth commission, who can say.
    Let’s hear what Gery Adams has to say tomorrow.

    One thing I do know is there was an inquiry into the death of a soldier at Deepcut barracks.
    He had 2 bullet holes in his head, and it was recorded as suicide, which is impossible.
    So don’t hold your breath on the British Army telling the truth, they’ve never done it before.

    And in a recent example in Iraq, where an officer squaddie murdered an innocent Iraqi in detention; the inquiry after was just a complete white-wash.
    They are masters at covering up their stink.

    I seem to recall the IRA admitting and apologizing for many many incidents.

    For the Unionist hypocrite, he slithers about wearing a mask, inhabiting a dark world based on a “fear-based false dignity” —-and the fact that he’s acted like total arsehole since 1690, is obvious to everyone but himself.

    What more to we need to know? 😉

  • Cruimh

    “He had 2 bullet holes in his head, and it was recorded as suicide, which is impossible.”

    Not necessarily – An automatic weapon will discharge more than one bullet.

  • Sean

    Crumb
    Not necessarily – An automatic weapon will discharge more than one bullet

    True but since the kick back from the intial bullet would have pulled the weapon out of alignment it would have required that he stop and re-aim his weapon hardly a likely scenario

    but tell you what give it a try and tell us how it goes

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ‘I seem to recall the IRA admitting and apologizing for many many incidents.’

    Aw well that’s all right then.

    ‘Sorry missus but on a dark night and with our brave lads tanked up to the eyeballs, your husband’s back looked just like UDR scum so we shot it. 16 times. Here’s some stolen cash in an envelope.’

    Yes indeed a truth commission would help portray all sides in a much better light.

  • Shore Road Resident

    “For the Unionist hypocrite, he slithers about wearing a mask, inhabiting a dark world based on a “fear-based false dignity” —-and the fact that he’s acted like total arsehole since 1690, is obvious to everyone but himself.”

    – This is the sort of mindset that makes it easy to dismiss the murder of Protestants as something that doesn’t really require any further explanation. Good job Republicans aren’t bígóted though!

  • pauljames

    Hey Sean

    A British Army SA80 fires 650 rounds/min ie over 10rounds/sec but then if the facts dont fit lets make up our own “Truth” just like any commission would

  • “We promise to tell the ‘truth’, a bit of the truth, and nothing but a bit of the truth.”

  • Gerry Lvs Castro, you got that round the wrong way, your example atypifies amateur loyalist death squads and their indiscriminate sectarian murders; the IRA were much better trained and professional, but still made mistakes.

    SSR
    I’m not into killing prods, sorry to disappoint you; but would I like to see the evil of sectarianism utterly destroyed, you bet.
    No I don’t think republicans are bigoted.
    But I won’t tolerate falsehoods dressed up as principles.
    We just want to live in peace harmony and friendship with you in a united ireland.
    The maths is not complex!

  • me

    to prince eoghan – just one name: jean mcconville – that’s why gerry doesn’t want a truth commission

  • Cruimh

    “A British Army SA80 fires 650 rounds/min ie over 10rounds/sec but then if the facts dont fit lets make up our own “Truth” just like any commission would ”

    indeed.

  • Cruimh

    “We just want to live in peace harmony and friendship with you in a united ireland.”

    but you live in England !

  • Prince Eoghan

    Cruimh

    Carrying over this Ireland for the Irish nonsense on this thread Madradin. Please apply these same standards to all the right-wing dinosaurs in England that would support your position.

    >>to prince eoghan – just one name: jean mcconville – that’s why gerry doesn’t want a truth commission
    Posted by me on Aug 11, 2007 @ 03:42 PM<

  • Sean the troll

    Pauljames
    So your theory goes that the next 649 bullets go exactly where the 1st one went?

    Plus automatic weapons if the did discharge more than once would in theory discharge more than twice so where are the rest of the bullets

  • Cruimh

    “Please apply these same standards to all the right-wing dinosaurs in England that would support your position.”

    None of them are posting here using words like “we ” and “us” ….

    Still laughing at your

    ” I’m sure the RM were aware of talks between the leadership and the British from the beginning, even if the British public and prods in Ireland weren’t. “

  • Cruimh

    “So your theory goes that the next 649 bullets go exactly where the 1st one went? ”

    Straw men – it was claimed to be impossible for a suicide to have been shot twice in the head. It IS possible.

  • Sean the troll

    its possible god exists just not real likely

  • exactly prince.. staring wostfully into the North Atlantic in Coleraine, contemplating the setting sun on the British Empire is hardly close to the Action, more of a place to stick an old Edwardian Plant that doesn’t understand why the sun doesn’t shine anymore 😉
    Good rugby game by your boys today.
    well done!

  • Prince Eoghan

    Aye Parc, We (Scotland(happy Madradin))) managed to overcome an a bit of an experimental Irish team.

    Madradin

    >>Still laughing at your<

  • Cruimh

    “Multiple gunshot suicides engender controversy because of the popular misconception that it is impossible for an individual to inflict more than one gunshot upon herself or himself. Because of this many are associated with conspiracy theories, which hold that those individuals actually were the victims of a homicide.[1] Forensic medicine has discovered, however, that suicides by firearm involving multiple gunshots, although uncommon, are by no means rare; as many as eight percent (nearly one in every twelve) of suicides by firearm involve multiple gunshots.[2] Suicides involving as many as six self-inflicted gunshots have been documented in the literature.[3]”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide

  • Sean the troll

    Yes crumb but why do I have a feeling they used this very case to arrive at their staistical analsys

    Kind of flawed arguement there

  • Prince I think the farthest cruimh searches for truth is scratching his head to find out whether his pipe has fallen down on the Left or Right of his PC desk.
    and sweet Justice is when his legendary soups last him 3 days without going off 😉

    still a confidence booster much needed for Scotland.

  • Cruimh

    “suicide is sometimes possible even if there are. multiple gunshot wounds to the head.”

    A finite element model investigation of gunshot injury
    Authors: Raul, Jean-Sébastien1; Deck, Caroline; Meyer, Franck; Geraut, Annie; Willinger, Rémy; Ludes, Bertrand

    Source: International Journal of Legal Medicine, Volume 121, Number 2, March 2007 , pp. 143-146(4)

    I’ll take their word ahead of the ramblings of parcifal

  • Prince Eoghan

    4 deaths in a short period of time will rightly come under suspicion in any event. However Parcifal’s original comment was aimed at the truth telling ability of the British army in general.

    Let’s test that ability in banner!

  • seeing as we’re doing hyperlinks, the cruelty at DeepCut barracks is well documented:

    http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=8660

    and there remains much controversy over the deaths of the 4 young recruits:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3743131.stm

  • Cruimh

    “However Parcifal’s original comment was aimed at the truth telling ability of the British army in general. ”

    he made a very definite claim which I have shown to be untrue.

    “He had 2 bullet holes in his head, and it was recorded as suicide, which is impossible.

  • willowfield

    SF are at least attempting to redress the balance, having been the victims of Unionists and British Gov’t propaganda over the last 30/40 years.

    So the PIRA didn’t engage in a 30-year terror campaign, murdering 1,700 people? It was all “propaganda”?

  • Dewi

    Let’s cool down a bit. How the fuck did you lose to scotland ?

  • willow, no you miss my point which is that the Brit/Unionist propaganda machine has characterized republicans as the baddies for 30 odd years, the overwhelming evidence is now to the contrary,
    see so the false moral high ground is slipping away forever. see prince’s link
    http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=12688
    You can’t recover it.
    Hands up son !

    ok cruimh you get your pedant award, bravo
    Would you like to tackle the culture of bullying, the real stuff behind these sad deaths, and what that says about the supposed high standards.. or is that all a fabrication? and the work of MSM leftie dhimmi surrender monkeys… ring a bell?

    Oh sorry your on summer vacation from *ahem* the spiders web… lol

  • willowfield

    willow, no you miss my point which is that the Brit/Unionist propaganda machine has characterized republicans as the baddies for 30 odd years, the overwhelming evidence is now to the contrary,

    Um, they were the baddies. They murdered 1,700 people; injured, maimed, tortured and exiled thousands more; destroyed businesses; destroyed property; destroyed lies.

    No evidence indicates otherwise. It happened.

  • Sam Hanna

    Well said WIllowfield

    Facts are facts

    I would like to see an Independent Investigation into the links between the IRA and the Roman Catholic CHurch, Free State, Libya where the Deputy First Minister was forced to answer. I would like Sean O’Callaghan to be interviewed and his evidence fully investigated.

  • Cruimh

    “ok cruimh you get your pedant award, bravo ”

    it’s not pedantry – it was that sort of “evidence” about cot deaths that had women in jail for crimes they didn’t commit. Professor Meadows ring any bells ?

    Certainly lots to be suspicious about in the cases mentioned – but foolish claims do not help.

    as for

    “the overwhelming evidence is now to the contrary, see so the false moral high ground is slipping away forever. see prince’s link ”

    the SWP ? 😉

    The provos were responsible for the most revolting murder of the troubles – they abducted two children from school and interrogated and shot a child with a severe learning disability in the head and left him to die in the grounds of Belfast Zoo.

    So they and their supporters like you have NO right to even mention “moral high ground”

  • Cruimh

    British government collusion with the RC church over Father James Chesney, the priest responsible for the Claudy bombing. Maybe Martin would like to tell us the facts of the Claudy bombing ?

  • willow, I’m not disputing your figures, am giving you some latitude. So fair’s fair –now when you’ve read that link I’ve given you
    “The inside story of British death squads in Northern Ireland”.. we can talk some more ok?

    Cruimh you’ve won a pawn, ok have another one.. I don’t dispute what you’ve claimed about the children but you don’t win the game by denying John Blacks claims, with SWP dismissals.
    Bishop takes pawn, now you’re back to only one up…
    want to to continue?

  • Granni Trixie

    Can you see a ‘certain person’ who in the troubles literature is referred to as the IRAs “Lord High Executioner” but who has reinvented himself as “writer” – taking part in a Truth Commission?

  • confused

    A truth commission will not be set up because it does not have the support of SF or the British Government.
    Instead we can have separate inquiries into specific atrocities such as Omagh and no doubt in years to come SF/IRA will tell us of their involvement in this and subsequent cover-up.
    We can then pass judgement.

  • Christopher Eastwood

    I don’t know why i’m even getting involved here, but I have to point something out, something blatantly obvious.

    Almost every one of you who have contributed to this thread are TOXIC! There is a sort of malignant emotional disorder pervading every sentence! I know the Troubles here have caused a lot of bitterness and division, but even from a pragmatic perspecitve you must see that the adversarial approach taken to resolving such issues is counter-productive. Charity, compassion, perspectice and objectivity begets the same in return. This is ultimately the only way to compromise and concilliation. You guys would get far further in your discussions of these important events if you could afford the “other side” just a little bit of respect.

    What we need here is a “warts and all” shared narrative. It will be hard to reach this position, and there will always be disagreements over exactly what did happen (and why). Yet, in the process of establishing such a shared story, “taking the plank out of our own eye” would go a long way to encouraging the “other side” to take the plank out of theirs.

    One to ponder. Please do.

  • Holt

    Well said Christopher Eastwood, a bit of common sense at last, this thread until now has been an exercise in using the idea of a truth commission as a weapon.

  • confused

    To CE

    It is hard to disagree with anything you say but there remains a huge problem and that is how do we get to the stage where we get the “warts and all shared narrative”.
    At the moment that is a pipe dream and being nice to one another will not be the answer.
    We do need a forum where people can tell the truth and be respected for doing so. If necessary an immunity should be given against any prosecution.
    We want to know what went on and what was done in our names by Government,Political Parties and most important of all Paramilitaries.
    At this time of the year the people of Omagh are coming together to remember their loved ones.
    Are they any nearer to finding the truth of what happened?
    We suffer with them and give assurance that they will not be forgotten.
    Is there a more divided society in Europe? I don’t know and are we to wait for another generation to take up the task of creating a society which is free from rancour and bitterness.
    This is is depressing.

  • willowfield

    Parcifal

    Unattributed allegations in … The Socialist Worker … wise up.

    In any case, none of which alters the undisputed facts presented to you about the crimes of the Provisional “republican” movement.

  • willowfield
    I think you’ll find the thread is about a March to ask questions about collusion; so the link is useful reading, doesn’t sound like you got very far?

  • Pounder

    Cruimh I question your continued use of Wikipedia as a reliable source. Wiki is open to anyone to edit as they see fit. I could go in and edit it to say that magic pixies make multiple bullets follow the same path, this does not make it so. Wiki is a good start as looking for evidence, but it too unreliable to be the end all and be all.

  • Cruimh

    Pounder – I’m selective, I usualy cross check – and you’ll notice I gave another reference. But I agree – many Wiki citations, especially in history and politics, should not be treated as gospel !

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Truth and nothing but the Truth

    Can the right honourable MR McGuiness tell us some of the following:-

    (1). Why 4 IRA Volunteers were sacrificed in
    Clonoe in 1992 making a propaganda Video
    attacking a Military installation in
    Coalisland?

    (2). Why a Senior PSF Tout in Ballinderry was
    spirited off side to protect the good name of
    local Sinn Fein?

    (3). Why the people that organised, carried out
    and lied about the death of Robert McCartney
    continue to be protected?

    (4). Why Senior members of the PIRA such as the
    Yuppie, Spike, The Slab and others still
    continue to prosper from the proceeds of
    extortion, smuggling etc?

    Just a sample from the Republican side of many questions that need answering!

    If truth is the Provisional Goal can we start with these or are the answers just too gorey for the PSF mob to get off their chests

    March for Half Truth (Good Title)!

  • CIARAN10

    MY ONLY QUESTION TO GERRY AND THE BOYS IS CAN I KICK SOME OF THE OLD BOYS IN NORTH BELFAST IN THE NUTS AND NOT GET IN TROUBLE …I OF COURSE WILL APOLOGIZE AFTER AND IF THEY MARCH THRU MY AREA I WILL COME CLEAN AND ADMIT IT WAS COMMING TO THEM AND ANY WAY THEY REALLY NEVER DID HAVE ANY BALLS TO START WITH .THEY ALLWAYS HID BEHIND THE UP THE IRA CLOAK YEA YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE THE LITTLE NAPOLEONS FROM NEWINGTON ..MAYBE THEY CAN BEGIN TO TELL SOME TRUTHS EH KEVIN