“a special meeting of chairmen and secretaries of all clubs in the county.. as soon as possible”

The Chairman of the Fermanagh County Board of the GAA, Peter Carty, has issued a statement on behalf of the Board in relation to the sectarian abuse reported by Darren Graham recently. One paragraph, in particular, caught my eye

Darren Graham has been and continues to be a skilful exponent of football and hurling; he has made incredible efforts to be part of our games and has taken deep pride in representing Lisnaskea Emmetts. We are deeply upset that Darren has had to outline details of sectarian abuse to the Co. Board. We are also concerned at inaccurate and unfair media coverage of this issue. No player, no sportsman, no person should have to put up with such treatment and as a Co. Board we unreservedly apologise to Darren for any type of abuse he may have suffered on whatever occasion. Clubs or individuals who mete out any kind of abuse, including sectarian abuse, to others will be severely punished and such people are not welcome within our organisation.

The Chairman’s statement in full

We in the GAA, and in Fermanagh Co. Board in particular, have always taken pride in being a non-sectarian and non-political organisation. We unreservedly condemn abuse of any sort whether it occurs on or off the pitch and will not tolerate sectarian abuse of any of our members. In Fermanagh we have been especially proud of the fact that over the years many of the Protestant faith have given of their best to our games and have worn their club jersey with intense pride and continue to do so.

Darren Graham has been and continues to be a skilful exponent of football and hurling; he has made incredible efforts to be part of our games and has taken deep pride in representing Lisnaskea Emmetts. We are deeply upset that Darren has had to outline details of sectarian abuse to the Co. Board. We are also concerned at inaccurate and unfair media coverage of this issue. No player, no sportsman, no person should have to put up with such treatment and as a Co. Board we unreservedly apologise to Darren for any type of abuse he may have suffered on whatever occasion. Clubs or individuals who mete out any kind of abuse, including sectarian abuse, to others will be severely punished and such people are not welcome within our organisation.

We would want to apologise to any player who gives of his time, his energy and his commitment and is then subject to totally inappropriate remarks or treatment. We, in Fermanagh, make a promise to all our hard-working players, and members in general, that sectarian abuse or abuse of any sort towards them will never be tolerated and such behaviour will be rooted out. Referees, players and clubs are now on full alert with regard to such behaviour and severe penalties will ensue. Young people like Darren Graham deserve the highest praise for the effort they make, the hard work they put in and the endurance they show. We in the Co. board are behind them all the way; they have our unconditional support.

We have spoken with Darren who says that he would like to get on with his playing career encouraged as he is by the promises given. We are at the moment working very closely with him as regards his case and he is reassured that he and all players will be supported, protected and looked after to the very best of our ability.

We in Fermanagh Co. board and in the GAA are totally non-sectarian; we are open to all and we will not allow sectarian abuse to gain the slightest toe-hold within our organisation. With this in mind a special meeting of chairmen and secretaries of all clubs in the county will be convened as soon as possible to be addressed by leading GAA officials, including former Uachtarán of the Association Jack Boothman.

Peter Carty

Chairman

Fermanagh Co. Board

, ,

  • the doc

    Well done to fermanagh county board.I hope that the issue is monitored and let this young man get back to hurling and that other kick and catch game in a completely positive way.

  • Donnacha

    Well done Fermanagh (and that’s not a sentence you ehar every day). About as unequivocal as you can get and good to see that Darren Graham is thinking of continuing to play.

  • Chris Donnelly

    A welcome statement from the GAA Board in the county. It will be very important to have it followed by action which makes it clear that sectarian abuse has no place in Gaelic Games. It would be fantastic if Darren felt able to continue his GAA career, and he deserves the support of everyone involved in the GAA in Fermanagh and across Ireland.

  • IJP

    There is a problem, though.

    We in the GAA, and in Fermanagh Co. Board in particular, have always taken pride in being a non-sectarian and non-political organisation.

    This is bunkum. The GAA is fundamentally both sectarian and political.

    There’s nothing wrong with that per se (after all, Churches are both sectarian and political), but it needs to be clear about the facts of the matter, or the good words and intentions will be wasted.

  • Cruimh

    The GAA prides itself on being political – so Peter Carty has shot himself in the foot .

  • After the initial dissembling and denial, this is a strong and unequivocal response from the Fermanagh board to Darren’s allegations, and very good to see. It might look cheesy to an outsider to make a specific nod of appreciation to Protestant GAA players, but in the context we live in here, it’s important and positive.

    And it’s good to see Darren seems not to be prepared to let the bastards grind him down and wants to continue playing for his club,

    Now, if only we could recruit a few more talented GAA-playing Prods in Greater Belfast, Antrim might actually turn out a decent football side. And pigs might fly…

  • IJP

    I agree entirely that the GAA is fundamentally political. I’m not dure what the board were trying to achieve saying otherwise.

    I don’t agree that it is fundamentally sectarian. A few of its members are sectarian bigots. Quite a lot probably have a few silly prejudices (like most of the rest of us).

    But the organisation is not essentially religious at all. And since the political dimesnion is already covered in the word political, the reference to sectarian can only be assumed to apply purely religiously.

  • Cruimh

    “But the organisation is not essentially religious at all.”

    Not overtly or intentonally although there is i religious linkage thrugh the parish system – but Mick put it very well a few days ago on another thread.

    ” – Religion in Northern Ireland is highly correlative of political conviction, almost exclusively so in terms of the constitutional question. According to NILT, Protestant nationalists don’t exist. Ergo, this political requirement naturally filters almost all Protestants out. The pejorative term ‘black’ is equally applied to both ‘cop’ and ‘protestant’ – eg, ‘such and such a place is just a black hole’.

    – This ideological filter is unique to GAA and, in Northern Ireland, it augments the kind of structural barrier (largely found in education) that also reduces (and almost eliminates) the number of NI Catholics who play rugby, hockey and cricket. So far as we know, it has successfully retarded the number of senior players in Fermanagh to one. As such, we know that few Protestants in Northern Ireland are prepared to sidestep that political obstacle in the way that many basically apolitical (at least viz a viz the constitution ) NI Catholics are. ”

    http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/some-detail-on-that-abuse/P25/

    One thing I’d like to ask for information – not to cause trouble, or imply anything – How does the Parish thing work out for protestant players – especially where Protestant and RC Parishes differ?

  • Cruimh

    My understanding is that the parishs are simply useful geographical delimiters, rather like townlands.

    Certainly i know several urban clubs NOT based on parishes at all.

    and even where parish teams exist, plenty of people play for teams other than those representing where they live.

    On the sectarian point, I don’t doubt the numerical correlation, but that is frankly an Ulster specific historical coincidence, and not one shared for example in ROI.

    The key point remains that whatever principles of the GAA are detering people from that community, they are not religious ones. Is the NI Executive racist because it contains no people of minority ethnic origin? Only if it does so BECAUSE of that origin. Likewise the GAA.

  • Cruimh

    “My understanding is that the parishs are simply useful geographical delimiters, rather like townlands.”

    They define certain club eligibilities as outlined pages 17 and 18 – and transfers where parish priests may be involved – page 23 – the nit-picker in me was wondering – as there aren’t that many prods involved and as I think most times the parish boundaries are fairly similar, it may never even have arisen as yet.

    http://www.gaa.ie/files/official_reports/og_part1_jan_2007.pdf

    Also was wondering – there was something in toay’s Irish news about Parish changes in County Londonderry – which might affect player status ?

  • Rulebook_charley

    I know a few Irish americans who have read tonnes of books about Ireland, but ultimately they know fuck all about the place.

    Similarly, it seems a lot of losers on here spend their days reading through the GAA hand book – ultimately they know fuck all about the GAA.

    To be honest I have never seen a copy of the hand book in my 20+ years as a player.

    One poster in particulr seems to keep a copy in his pocket for refernece, nit picking through clauses and subsections to find something to annoy him – parish priests making transfers – what hte hell are you on about? I suggest you just go to a few games to ‘understand the GAA’.

    You won’t find the real GAA in a hand book.

  • Frustrated Democrat

    Rulebook_charley

    I haven’t had a copy of the Highway Code in my hands for 20 years either, it doesn’t mean I am not bound by the rules therein, ignorance is no defence.

    So get out the rules by which you are governed and if any of them are not in keeping with the eschewing of politics or religion, if you feel that is the way the GAA should be run,then you should try to have them changed; don’t pretend they don’t matter, they do.

  • Pounder

    One question, why did it take Fermanagh County Board so long to react and issue a statement?

  • The Penguin

    “We are also concerned at inaccurate and unfair media coverage of this issue.”

    Good to see they’ve moved on this and so decisively, but they shouldn’t try to kid themselves or anyone else that the media invented any of it.

  • Cruimh

    Seems unfair to criticise them for their tardy response – they are an amateur body and there’s obviously been a lot of thought put into this release.

  • mnob

    Of course the GAA discriminates agiants Protestants despite the protests (!) here as matches are played on a Sunday.

  • Dewi

    From the GAA constitution:

    “Irish paper shall be used for all official documents and correspondence” – I think that’s wonderful ! – How do they audit this !! Does Irish paper mean made from Irish trees or processed in Ireland ???

    Seriously, good statement but perhaps “non-party political” would have been a better phrase. GAA political obviously.

  • IJP

    The Beach Tree

    I could come back here and argue:
    a) sectarianism in itself is not the problem, it’s the bigotry that results from it that is;
    b) political and religious amount pretty much to the same thing in NI in practice, despite all of our arguments to the contrary;
    c) the GAA does constitutionally state a political preference.

    But there are three PhD theses in those points… so for the sake of a good debate, I’ll concede your point with Cruith‘s and Dewi‘s amendments!

  • darth rumsfeld

    Fine words indeed from the County Board. Only a begrudger would not echo the sentiments.

    I once heard David Trimble use a phrase “fine words butter no parsnips”, which I didn’t understand- like most of what he did actually.

    So we have to hope this commendable statement actually produces results- not least from the player himself, clearly a confused man about whom I remain slightly cynical. I never bought the “apologise or I’m off” line- particularly if he never made a formal complaint. It seems a wee bit prima donna-ish. Either the behaviour convinced him a line had been crossed, or it was something to sort out internally.

    He should now name and shame his abusers- how can a county, or an entire organisation, possibly be responsible for the actions of players it doesn’t know anything about? Of course if he did mention the problem informally to his own club, and they did nothing, he should confirm that too.

    And if he was a marked man before, what will he be the next time he turns out- they’ll probably send a BBC outside broadcast unit down to cover the game! Of course he could be clever and get himself secretly miked up – like the ref at the Arsenal-Millwall game a decade ago- and then we’d all see if his claims are true- still couldn’t be as scary as Tony Adams shouting “Cheat!” in yer face.

  • interested

    Fair enough – they’ve put out a statement and should be congratulated for it, but it is a bit hard to understand how the GAA is completely non-sectarian and non-political.

    Dont think we need to go through the list of things, but hunger-strike commmemorations using your grounds doesn’t really make a good start.

    Also, not to get picky, but:

    “In Fermanagh we have been especially proud of the fact that over the years many of the Protestant faith have given of their best to our games and have worn their club jersey with intense pride and continue to do so.”

    Many of the Protestant faith have given their best…… Really? Find it hard to believe that more than a handful have ever played in Fermanagh, but I suppose we cant let that get in the way.

    “and continue to do so”
    Err,.. weren’t we told that Darran Graham was the only Protestant GAA player in Fermanagh at present, and given the fact that they’ve had to release this statement, doesn’t that actually mean that there aren’t any Prod players at the minute. So Protestants continuting to give their best is one thing Fermanagh GAA doesn’t actually have at the minute.

    Apart from that though the statement is quite good!

  • Bretagne

    To be heard on a field in Fermanagh : –

    “Dont call him an orange b***ard! – ya big-nosed stupid ginger f**ker, or that other w***er will send you off – stick to marking your own man – get right up his arse like a gay b****rd”

    Fair play to the – but I think refs (linemen, and umpires) should have the powers to send players off for foul and abusive language otherwise the problem will move to the next unfortunate.

  • Cruimh

    name calling on the field

    “The debate recalls the Bodyline series of 1932-33, when the English captain, Douglas Jardine, reportedly complained to his opposite number, Bill Woodfull, that an Australian player had called him a bastard.

    Scanning the Australian dressing room, Woodfull asked his team: “Which one of you bastards called this bastard a bastard?” ”

    ( Daily Telegraph about Sledging)

  • darth rumsfeld

    brings to mind the story of the late great John Thompson, Celtic goalkeeper before the War, on his first visit to Ibrox for an Old Firm match. At halftime he was in the dressing room and spoke to Celtic veteran and legend Jimmy McGrory, saying how shocked he was at the abuse he was getting from the Rangers fans behind the goal, calling him a “Fenian bastard” etc.
    McGrory said that he shouldn’t let it get to him – he (McGrory) had been had been subjected to that abuse for years.
    Thompson-a Protestant- is supposed to have replied “It’s alright for you Jimmy-you are one!”

  • lib2016

    Good move from the GAA although it would have been nice to see them extend the net to include racism. There’ll have been a problem making sure that they don’t use language too reminiscent of that used by Sinn Fein in it’s ‘equality’ campaign and they seem to have avoided that.

    The usual begrudgery will be there from the usual suspects but it’s nice to see some appreciation as well from sources where one wouldn’t have always expected it.

    Let’s hope that they continue to recruit among all the New Irish, including all those who’s families have been on holiday here for the last few hundred years. 😉

  • páid

    Excellent story Darth!

    However you let your anti-Trimble prejudice get the better of you, with the butter and parsnips stuff.

    I distinctly recall The Turtle stating “Talking never got the turf home.”

  • Cruimh

    Blog request – can we have a blog on Gort na Mona GAC club hosting the Martin Meehan Hunger strike event? Antrim GAA and hunger strikes in the news again.

  • Tochais Síoraí

    Good man Cruimh, it was beginning to feel like no mans land at Christmas 1914 there for a while.

  • Hogan from County Tyrone

    Cruimh

    That is right on the money. I am a GAA fan but i don’t subscribe to any of Meehans republican propaganda. I have no interest in the hungerstrikes.

    I can accept that perhaps if GAA halls are the only local facilities that they could be used for community events etc but in the same token i wonder would Gort na Mona be so accomodating to the RUC Widows Association or FAIR etc.

    I think the Casement Park case was a incident where the provo’s rode all over the GAA because the organisation was in the heart of republican West Belfast and as such should pay the same homage to the ‘boys’ as they expect from the rest of the population up there.

    The GAA should have had the balls to say f*ck off and chained the gates.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Good response from the GAA, I suspect that this will only be the beginning. No decent organisation should put up with bigotry in their organisation. Sad that some on here don’t recognise decency, perhaps they can’t>, or more likely not in their agenda to do so.

  • The Reporter

    Is this news ???? shock !sectarian organisation exhibits sectarian behaviour !. The GAA seriously needs to be proscribed.

  • Pounder “One question, why did it take Fermanagh County Board so long to react and issue a statement? “

    I’d guess because a good statement is thought out, researched, reviewed, consulted about, thought about again and lastly delayed to let cooler heads prevail. “Off the cuff” is for those who garner info from (usually tabloid) headlines as opposed to well thougth out statements.

    The Penguin “…but they shouldn’t try to kid themselves or anyone else that the media invented any of it. “

    They never blamed the media or said the media invented the issue. Read what’s written and watch you don’t trip yourself up on your obvious agenda

    interested “…weren’t we told that Darran Graham was the only Protestant GAA player in Fermanagh at present, …”

    I remember reading, when the initial report came out in the Fermanagh Herald, that D Graham said there were some who played who were from mixed marriages but he was the only one who was Protestant on both side… does it really matter ? Should there be a degree of genetic/religious make-up testing involved to play the game. Darren said that ‘as far as he knew” – maybe there’s more, maybe not… who cares it’s not an issue. Interested you’ve an obvious agenda.

    Well done Darren, well done the club and the Fermanagh co board. Congrats all round to the GAA and hopefully they’ll use this incident to promote GAA further (as much in spite of the organizations knockers).

    UP THE DUBS

  • Danny O’Connor

    Well done Darren ,if you are a good hurler consider a move to antrim ,that performance of ours against galway was sh-t

  • since the Darren Graham issue first came to light here in SluggerOToole world on the 1st Aug there have been 187 related postings to the original thread http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/protestant-gaa-player-gives-up-sport-after-sectarian-abuse/

    On a following day another thread on the same subject http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/as-long-as-they-will-recognise-that-the-intimidation-is-going-on-for-so-lon/ generated 30 postings.

    Thanksfully the issue seems to be coming to a resolution and altho this thread was posted yesterday we’ve only had 25 postings. I’d almost think that some would prefer the the bad ol’ days. Or is it that some with an agenda just wanted to ‘discuss’ the GAA as they appeared to be shown in a bad light. Those same don’t seem as proficient with the postings on this thread.

  • jerryp

    In a junior hurling game last week in Cork, a bit of a schimmozle broke out in the goalmouth. FB floored the opposing FF with a hook that would have done Ali justice in his hey-day.( Everything else was a bit of pushing and shoving ). Peace was quickly restored and ref, who was a bit away when it broke out, consulted his umpires while the FF was still being treated. As he struggled to his feet, still holding his jaw, the ref flashed the only card, a yellow , at the very sore FF and said out loud : ” Now, don’t ever again call someone a knacker while I’m around ” !

  • John East Belfast

    anonymous

    “Or is it that some with an agenda just wanted to ‘discuss’ the GAA as they appeared to be shown in a bad light.”

    The way you are talking you would think that Darren Graham’s complaints have just been proven beyond doubt that they were a figment of his imagination.

    This changes nothing.

    The issue remains why did it occur in the first place and go unchecked for years and the fact that this statement now has only been issued as a REACTION to the bad media coverage they received. Dont forget their initial reaction was along the lines of “we have received no formal complaint” and hence reserve the right to keep our heads in the sands.

    This is a PR and damage limitation exercise.

    Come back to me when the GAA have named a few people and given them a ban

  • tom

    “The issue remains why did it occur in the first place and go unchecked for years and the fact that this statement now has only been issued as a REACTION”

    Neil Lennon anyone !!!

    “This is a PR and damage limitation exercise”

    I said, Neil Lennon anyone !!!

    “Come back to me when the GAA have named a few people and given them a ban ”

    A bit like the IFA ban on the thousands of bigots involved in the sectarian chanting at Neil Lennon.

  • John East Belfast

    tom

    I think you are posting on the wrong thread ?

  • yes Tom, a very good and reasonable reply if you want to discuss sectarianism in sport in NI. You’ve shown how it shouldn’t be treated (ie. N Lennon) and how it should be defeated (ie. the procedure the the GAA is now engaging in).

    “… why did it occur in the first place.. ”

    because NI has an excess of bigots and sport has too many gobshites. It’s a pity that NI was misruled for years and therefore it’s society allow rot to the state it’s was in only up until a few years ago. It’s natural that a good player (assuming DG’s tormentors were good w the sliothar) is picked for many reasons other than his intellegence.

    “…go unchecked for years…”

    I don’t know if there was insults aimed at ALL the Protestant players for YEARS but this D. Graham case was dealt with as soon as it came to the notice of the organization. Your IMPLICATION is that the sectarianism evidence in the Graham case was rampant can’t be prooven altho can be disproven.

    “…this statement now has only been issued as a REACTION…”

    as opposed to not taking any proactive measures towards the Protestant population … eeerrr Nicky Brennan met w the Protestant heirarchy only a few months ago. Very public meeting and nationally reported announcements. What more do you want the GAA to do… award a Protestant team a four point advantage in every game ??

    JEB, it’s obvious you just don’t like the GAA. Fine but don’t try hide it behind moralizing here on SluggerOToole.

    It’s all good news on the GAA front today… hopefully it’ll be all good Dublin GAA news come Sat evening.

    Ath Cliath abu

  • John East Belfast

    anonymous

    “It’s a pity that NI was misruled for years and therefore it’s society allow rot to the state it’s was in only up until a few years ago.”

    LOL !

    Best Mope ever – 50 years of unionist mis rule now responsible for sectariansim in GAA !

    The fact that the % of Protestants (and even fewer unionists) in the GAA must never have been greater than low single figures and the influence of Stormont over GAA in the period 1922 to date must have been negligible I think we can safely say that any inherent problems in the GAA are its own fault.

    “I don’t know if there was insults aimed at ALL the Protestant players for YEARS but this D. Graham case was dealt with as soon as it came to the notice of the organization. Your IMPLICATION is that the sectarianism evidence in the Graham case was rampant can’t be prooven altho can be disproven.”

    It was only dealt with after Darren Clarke said he could take no more and even then only after the spot light of media attention.

    The key phrase “take no more..” – what does that say to you.
    Indeed earlier this year he had his jaw broken.

    Nothing was done.

    The question remains if it will be a case of too little too late.

    “What more do you want the GAA to do”

    I want them to ban the offenders and possibly give the most serious ones a life time ban.

    I want them to enforce their own rules that their facilities should not be used for political purposes so that next time Antrim GAA thumb their noses at them they are punished.

    I also want the President to stop attending the opening of GAA Grounds named in honour of people who in both jurisdictions on this Island would have been considered as criminals.

    I would also like them to say they are a purely sporting body which means that Nationalist, Unionist and Alliance Party are welcome and nowhere in its Constitution will it express a view on the constitutional position of Northern Ireland.

    “JEB, it’s obvious you just don’t like the GAA”

    I think your problem is you cant accept criticism

  • Cruimh

    “I want them to ban the offenders and possibly give the most serious ones a life time ban.

    I want them to enforce their own rules that their facilities should not be used for political purposes so that next time Antrim GAA thumb their noses at them they are punished.

    I also want the President to stop attending the opening of GAA Grounds named in honour of people who in both jurisdictions on this Island would have been considered as criminals.

    I would also like them to say they are a purely sporting body which means that Nationalist, Unionist and Alliance Party are welcome and nowhere in its Constitution will it express a view on the constitutional position of Northern Ireland.”

    Amen to those – esecially the last point – especially in the light of the votes about the GFA on bth sides of the border.

    The GAA should become a sporting and cultural body. As the theory is that fostering the language and games will in themselves strengthen nationalsism, why drive away the people you need to convert unless you don’t actually believe?

  • willowfield

    Re. RC parishes are only used in purely geographic terms … how come the local GAA club features heavily in my local RC parish magazine, and advertises for players in the entrance to the chapel?

    There is no equivalent coverage in the local CofI magazine or CofI church. And I doubt in any other Protestant equivalents.

  • nope my mope was about NI – the shitehole of sectarism.

    GAA and Stormont: the organization is Irish. Stormont was based on being anti-Irish/Catholic therefore an inherant aversion to the organization from supporters of the ‘failed entity’. Therefore unionist problem … not found in England as witnessed by the number of clubs ‘on your mainland’ !??!

    I’m sure you didn’t mean Darren the golfer but Darren the hurler. An easy mistake when you deal in the name Darrens and ‘pigeon-holing’ as you seem apt to do !?!?

    “It was only dealt with after Darren [sic] said he could take no more and even then only after the spot light of media attention. ”

    AAhhhrrggg, what could the GAA do before learning about the complaint other than consult a crystal ball.

    “Indeed earlier this year he had his jaw broken. ”
    are you saying that he got his jaw brioken for being a Protestant player and this was one of his complaints? Or was his jaw broken as shit like this happens in the game and he never brought this up in his complaints about the abuse? Or are you trying to IMPLY that his jaw was broken because he was a Protestant altho Graham never complained that this a issue?

    Your four points about what you;d like for the GAA to do would be given credence if you were anything but an obviously anti-GAA poster. The organization would probably address the political issues if their hand wasn’t forced in the manner described by Jack Boothman as …’ the British Army is probably the greatest recruiting agent for the Provos”. Your mentioned 4 suggestions only feature north of the border because of the pathetic society that the organization had to endure for so many years. The organization is addressing sectarianism like Brennan did months ago. It’ll be well able to resolve any of it’s MINOR issue. It a pity that it’s one of the few bodies in NI that will be able to do this.

    Ath Cliath abu

  • willowfield

    GAA and Stormont: the organization is Irish. Stormont was based on being anti-Irish/Catholic …

    Stormont was the Parliament of Northern IRELAND – hardly anti-Irish. Although I note you bring “Catholic” into the equation. Does this reveal your understanding of what “Irish” means?

  • Outsider

    The statement is welcome although rather inaccurate as has been pointed out many times in these posts but the simple fact is that there are few to no Protestants in the gaa in Fermanagh and this is unlikely to ever change.

    I remember some weeks ago in an anti Orange Order thread when I criticised the gaa especially in Clones for supporters singing pro ira songs at games, I was criticised for making that statement. Again I will ask what is the gaa not just the Fermanagh gaa going to do about occurances like this?

  • John East Belfast

    anonymous

    “nope my mope was about NI – the shitehole of sectarism”

    The Irish problem and the GAA itself which arose from that problem predate the Northern Ireland State.

    You will offend NI nationalists in addition to myself if you adopt that haughty southern attitude that you were above our problems.

    Anyhow as for sectarianism it is only last year that the GAA gave up 19th century language and allowed ‘foreign’ sports to play in its stadium.

    Not much monger before that it had ended its blatant and despicable apartheid against serving Northern Irish police officers.

    But of course you are above all that are you not ?

    “are you saying that he got his jaw brioken for being a Protestant player and this was one of his complaints?”

    I am only quoting Darren myself when I heard his radio interview on Talk back last week. He talked about his abuse and also talked about his broken jaw – I got the impression he saw them linked.

    “Your four points about what you;d like for the GAA to do would be given credence if you were anything but an obviously anti-GAA poster.”

    Why – do you only listen to your friends ?

    I think this quote sums both you and the GAA up very well. You only hear what you want to hear from your friends so that you can delude yourself that everything is ok.

    You are living in denial and I am ctually doing you a favour by pointing these matters out to you.

    If you wont listen then why be surprised when incidents like this occur.

  • IJP

    JEB

    Yes, there is a basic fallacy in the Nationalist re-writing of history here.

    Nationalists constantly argue partition caused sectarianism.

    Factually, it is the other way around.

    The idea that the Republic of Ireland isn’t sectarian is as laughable as the idea that North Down isn’t. When the minority is so small, it’s very easy to be “holier than thou”.

  • John East Belfast “You will offend NI nationalists in addition to myself if you adopt that haughty southern attitude that you were above our problems.”

    I’m not here to offend people. However if I choose to speak in disgust about the sectarian, bigot – blighted six counties of less than 1mio people that is known thro out the world as a place of hate, then why not ?? Nice to see you choose to speak for the nationalists of NI too… I only speak for myself… who elected you as anyone’s representative?

    “…it had ended its blatant and despicable apartheid against serving Northern Irish police officers.”

    A proper policy for a paramilitary force involved in state sponsored terrorism and not accepted by almost half the population. If we want to eradicate bigots from sports then the GAA was right to exclude the RUC.

    “He talked about his abuse and also talked about his broken jaw – I got the impression he saw them linked.”

    A classic example of two and two equaling twenty two!!! Congratulations, you have won the prize for the most blatantly binkered posting of the month.

    IJP “The idea that the Republic of Ireland isn’t sectarian is as laughable as the idea that North Down isn’t. When the minority is so small, it’s very easy to be “holier than thou”. “

    I counter this with the fact that the Protestant’s in the Republic are more than favourably represented in the most lucrative professions. They are totally assimilated in most areas of society (strangely not many in the Dail, but they have FG & the PDs as a whole to represent them) such as sports, arts, literature. Their religion and churchs are plentiful and respected (Darth Rumsfeld-pisser- types are obviously limited to north of the border). They have the best of schools receiving public contribution vastly over and above what might be expected from per capita allocations.

    IJP how often do you travel to the Republic? And what part?

  • willowfield

    ANONYMOUS

    A proper policy for a paramilitary force involved in state sponsored terrorism and not accepted by almost half the population. If we want to eradicate bigots from sports then the GAA was right to exclude the RUC.

    If the rationale of the ban on the police was that they were “a paramilitary force”, “engaged in terrorism”, “not accepted by almost half the population” and as a means to “eradicating bigots”, how come the GAA didn’t ban members of the Provisional IRA?

  • John East Belfast

    Anonymous

    “if I choose to speak in disgust about the sectarian, bigot – blighted six counties of less than 1mio people that is known thro out the world as a place of hate, then why not ??”

    Less than 2m actually unless of course it is only the Protestants you are describing ?

    As for being known as a place of hate it is actually being courted as a potential example to the world of how solutions can be found.
    Indeed the greatest examples of hate that I can see here are your postings and your last one especially.

    You must be a southern nationalist as your would be an embarassment to your northern brethern

    “If we want to eradicate bigots from sports then the GAA was right to exclude the RUC.”

    What every member of the RUC – including all the Catholics who served were bigots ?

    And you saying this in a thread talking about a Protestant having to leave the GAA because of bigots ?

    Also what about an answer to Willowfield’s post about why the GAA did not ban PIRA as per your definition ?

    “I counter this with the fact that the Protestant’s in the Republic are more than favourably represented in the most lucrative professions. They are totally assimilated in most areas of society (strangely not many in the Dail, but they have FG & the PDs as a whole to represent them) such as sports, arts, literature. Their religion and churchs are plentiful and respected (Darth Rumsfeld-pisser- types are obviously limited to north of the border). They have the best of schools receiving public contribution vastly over and above what might be expected from per capita allocations.”

    All I can say is that if Protestants were black that last post could have been written by someone talking about the native elite in colonial Africa.

    And LOL you still cant see why the GAA has problems with people like you involved !

    As for IJP visiting the Republic how often do you visit NI because you clearly know little about the place.

  • “As for being known as a place of hate it is actually being courted as a potential example to the world of how solutions can be found. “

    a pig with lipstick is still a pig!!
    The parents of T. Devlin don’t seem to be too happy with Bertie’s ‘Pay Off the Sectarian killers solution’ that you seem so happy to promote… http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6943137.stm

    “You must be a southern nationalist as your would be an embarassment to your northern brethern “
    Again you speak for northern nationalists – amazing. Yes I’m from the 26 cos. Why would I be an embarrassment… and WTF is ‘brethren’ in the context of northern nationalists !?!?

    “Indeed the greatest examples of hate that I can see here are your postings and your last one especially.”
    I don’t see much hate in my posting but you must hate the following… A classic example of two and two equaling twenty two!!! Congratulations, you have won the prize for the most blatantly binkered posting of the month.

    “What every member of the RUC – including all the Catholics who served were bigots ? “
    the RUC, in general, was a bigoted organization so much so that it didn’t receive support from almost half the population. It has been under almost constant investigation (internally) for almost 20 years. It’s highest ranked member killed in the Troubles (Chief Inspector Harry Breen) was linked to the Glenanne Gang /mass murderers (http://www.seeingred.com/Copy/2.1_CODE_weiraff.html). So while every member of the RUC prob wasn’t a bigot the percentage of bigots in the organization allows for me to describe it as such.

    “Also what about an answer to Willowfield’s post about why the GAA did not ban PIRA as per your definition ? ”
    I can’t image that any potential new member of CLG when signing up filled out ‘member of the IRA’ in the line for occupation. Therefore I can’t image that the GAA would have known which member was part of that secret organization. The RUC on the other hand, falsely portrayed themselves as guardians of the peace and upstanding members of the community and their occupation would have been filled out in their applications.

    “All I can say is that if Protestants were black that last post could have been written by someone talking about the native elite in colonial Africa. “
    IJP said that the Protestants in ROI were discrimated against. I point out and list that they’re not and for a minority have done exceptionally well (per capita). What the heck are you writing about ? Discriminated against … and you want to be compared w the rich Blacks in SA’s – where’s the rationale in that ?

    “As for IJP visiting the Republic how often do you visit NI because you clearly know little about the place. ”

    Way, way too often (mainly west of the Bann, occasionally the tourist hot spot of Portadown and from time to time shopping in Belfast) … send me your address and I’ll call round for a chat the next time I’m in town. Oh, you forgot to include where you visit in ROI…(waiting for yours and IJP’s answer)

  • willowfield

    I can’t image that any potential new member of CLG when signing up filled out ‘member of the IRA’ in the line for occupation. Therefore I can’t image that the GAA would have known which member was part of that secret organization. The RUC on the other hand, falsely portrayed themselves as guardians of the peace and upstanding members of the community and their occupation would have been filled out in their applications.

    What a pathetic and disingenuous reply.

  • oh willow, did I not give you the reply you wanted – tough !!

  • Cruimh

    “the RUC, in general, was a bigoted organization so much so that it didn’t receive support from almost half the population.”

    Same could be said of the GAA itself – and it would be just as big a load of tosh.

  • Cruimh,
    CLG is a sporting organization so whether or not they receive support from any percentage of the population doesn’t reflect on the organization. Likewise the NI Tiddlywinks Club doesn’t need to get the support of everyone in NI.

    The Police in any civilized community should get the people’s support. Or as NI has shown us because of the behaviour of the RUC, UDR / BSpecials in NI almost half of the popululation will wish for it to be disbanded becasue they are not impartial or just plain sectarian murderers.

  • Cruimh

    “CLG is a sporting organization”

    untrue – it is a political organisation.

    You cannot use the relatively low percentage of RCs to imply or prove that any organisation is “bigoted”.

    And you ignore the fact that showing support for the police in any way was extremely dangerous for the minority populus here.

  • “untrue – it is a political organisation. ”

    untrue and this thread and many others over the last few weeks have sought to portray CLG as primarily non sporting… and failed.

    “You cannot use the relatively low percentage of RCs to imply or prove that any organisation is “bigoted”. ”

    I didn’t. I’m saying that the UDR is bigoted as 17% of their members were engaged in illegal paramilitary activity. Same goes for the RUC as their SB were so closely linked to the UVF et al (see Mount Vernon in the news today). But what do you expect… they were set up to enforce a sectarian one party rule statlet.

    By your rationale the British Army was engaged in ethnic cleansing as they killed Catholics… all the IRA members killed were RC so the British Army should be in front of the court at The Hague ??

    “And you ignore the fact that showing support for the police in any way was extremely dangerous for the minority populus here. ”

    showing support… those killed were members of the security forces. During the period NI was a dangerous place. Each side had those that signed up and those that didn’t.

  • Cruimh

    untrue – it is a political organisation.

    “untrue!

    The constitution and rules of the GAA prove otherwise.

    “I’m saying that the UDR is bigoted”

    Whoa – that’s a spectacular movement of the goalposts – we were talking about the Police – from your post !!!!

    “the RUC, in general, was a bigoted organization so much so that it didn’t receive support from almost half the population.”

  • Cruimh

    “showing support… those killed were members of the security forces.”

    Bernard Taggert – a 15 year old boy with severe learning difficulties was abducted by Adams IRA from school,’interrogated’, shot in the head and left to die in the grounds of Belfast zoo.

    He wasn’t a member of the security forces.

  • chewnic

    not heading out on the ‘swall, tonight, Cruimh?

  • Cruimh

    not heading out on the ‘swall, tonight, Cruimh?

    eh ? I’m “heretipioneer”!

  • chewnic

    Heretipioneer?

  • Cruimh

    The proddy version of the pioneers – satan’s buttermilk is not for me !

    But is there some reason for celebration?

  • FERMANAGH

    we were discussing the alledged ethnic cleasning in FERMANAGH

    no changing the goal posts we were discussing the security forces therefore including the UDR, RUC, BSpecials, BA, UDA, Mt Vernon UVF / SB etc.

  • Cruimh

    “no changing the goal posts we were discussing the security forces”

    The comment of yours that I addressed :

    “the RUC, in general, was a bigoted organization so much so that it didn’t receive support from almost half the population.”

  • as opposed to trying to deflect from points made to deal with the semantics of naming, security forces or UDR or RUC or UVF, I’ll include some factual information about the UDR and their involvement in terrorist activity. You’ll note that the UDR were interconnected with the RUC and UVF thro’out…

    http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/details_on_that_udr_and_collusion_story/

  • willowfield

    I’m saying that the UDR is bigoted as 17% of their members were engaged in illegal paramilitary activity.

    Any evidence for this claim?!!

  • páirc na saileach,
    there’s the 15% which features in the attached link.

    I then extrapolated to account for the lying, self-serving mechanisim of minimising the culpability in state sponsered terrorism which would have been prevalent in a British report about the criminal activity in one of their own regiments, hence 17%. However, in re reading the article, I now think I should have added in a far larger ‘margin of erroreerrrr eh, lies’ from British Gov documents.

    15%, man, that turns out to be almost one in seven members of the UDR were state sponsered terrorists according to the govs own figures…. anyone got figures for the Taliban and the number of Al Queda. It looks like the disgrace of the UDR should have brought about a USA invasion of NI to counter STATE SPONSERED TERRORISM.

  • John East Belfast

    anonymous

    Are you trying to justify the sectarian abuse of Darren Graham within the GAA by smearing his father and uncle who were UDR members and who were murdered by the IRA ?

  • darth rumsfeld

    anonymous
    doesn’t it bother you that the mere fact that you feel the need to Gaelicise willowfield’s name is the clearest possible proof of your own bigotry, and inability to extend to others the tolerance and right to self expression which ought to be their right?

    I have objected to people calling our invisible Sinner MEP “Barbara Brown” in the past, and you’re just as bad. It weakens your otherwise articlutae arguments

    Incidentally , the word is “sponsored”. And this is not the only intellectual shortcoming in your argument.

    For example. The UDR may indeed possibly have had a significant minority of members with connections to illegal organisations at one time. Perhaps a significant minority of GAA members were in the IRA as well-certainly many IRA members were. Does that make the GAA a terrorist- or a bigotted-organisation? If some members did not live up to the highest standards of the organisation is the whole organisation to blame? There were/are many decent and honourable sportsmen in the GAA. It’s just wrong to attribute personality traits to organisations.

    Now what you present as logic- that if 17% are deemed “connected” the whole must be tainted is a tenable, though tendentious, point when judged against the statistics since we cannot actually know who conspired to kill whom in every case.I’m long enough in the tooth to know that government statistics are the most inaccurate statistics on the planet too.And frankly, the staggeringly poor killrate of IRA members and especially leaders by these supposedly state controlled ruthless terror gangs suggests that they were rather less widespread than your paranoia ought to predict.

    The standard MOPE conspiracy theory as I understand it is that random sectarian murder of innocent Roman Catholics was designed to show the RC community that the IRA could not protect them, therefore don’t support them. But surely a state-inspired terror group with quasi-immunity would just waltz in, take out the IRA leadership, and hey presto the enemy is ineffective- keep doing it to any new leadership till the message penetrates the brains of the activists. Wasn’t that the logic behind internment, which the securocrats believed failed because of poor intelligence and advance warning?

    Furthermore,your emotional starting point assumes, but fails to establish, when the whole is corrupted by part-again because your emotions distort your judgment.
    If 1% of the UDR was “connected” at one time, while obviously unaccaptable, would it be fair to condemn the whole cadre perhaps ten years later? If the terrorist actions of a rogue unit in S Armagh accounted for innocent dead in 1975, does that justify condemning or killing an elderly part time soldier in North Antrim in 1973, or 1983? No- it’s only the excuse.

    If one GAA club-say in S Armagh again- has a larger than average number of members with IRA pasts I would be entirely wrong to say the Wicklow county board was riddled with Provos.But if any paramilitary presence taints the whole, then it’s surely at the leadership level.
    And here consistency must lead you to shun our present government, especially our Deputy First Minister and his party- ain’t that so?

  • JEB “Are you trying to justify the sectarian abuse of Darren Graham within the GAA by smearing his father and uncle who were UDR members and who were murdered by the IRA ? “

    No,
    As I posted prominently in a previous post “hence I posted “Please don’t think that this is an attempt to justify the killings. It’s my attempt to analyse others postings claiming ethnic cleansing which I don’t think holds up.” but of course you wish to read what you wish to read.

    Also, I didn’t gorify the killings by Fintan did – I’m just responding to his tabloidesque reporting.

    The páirc na saileach is for my own humour…. However I note in your very next line that you include “our invisible Sinner MEP… “ in reference to a member of Sinn Fein (check the spelling). It’s a common word play by all in NI from calling Babs by her Anglicised name, Frank Ross similarly, on to Ian Og…. get used to it.

    “It weakens your otherwise articlutae arguments” don’t patronize me; you as a memorial pisser are not in a position to take the high ground on much on this site. All those years in college and King’s Inns and you resort to patronizing and commenting on my mis spelling (BTW it’s articulate, try spell check before you post about spelling) !??!

    The GAA is first and foremost a sporting organization. As is the Tiddlywinks Club of NI. The UDR was ‘officially’ establish and funded as a member of the security forces which accross the world should mean a fair and balanced pillar of govern. The UDR failed miserably at this most basic of requirements from inception as they were just the B Specials in new uniforms – the B Specials who were a bigoted disgrace – we all agree on that, right? The UDR as supposed members of civic security should be held to a higher level of scrutiny while the GAA / Tiddlywinks Club of NI can’t be considered anyway comparable.

    “…would it be fair to condemn the whole cadre perhaps ten years later”

    Yes of course. By your rationale then the IRA’s large- civilian- killings of Bloody Friday to Enniskillen were in the past but all IRA ‘cadre’ shouldn’t be condemned ?!?! A strange position from you. By this rationale therefore it would therefore be correct for said IRA or their electoral representatives to be in govt.

    “But surely a state-inspired terror group with quasi-immunity would just waltz in…”
    no because the security forces in NI were even useless at being bigoted murderers like for instance putting a bomb in a Miami Showband bus so badly that two blew themselves up. The Dub / Monaghan bombs were only “successful” as they’d the support of the BA’s equivalent of FRU of the time. Until then the UDR / UVF were limited to bombs with a lit fuse.

    The standard U-MOPE conspiracy (Unionist MOPE) seems to be that the UDR were decent people dastardly killed when in fact a large number of UDR were involved w state sponsored terrorism.

  • willowfield

    Anonymous

    there’s the 15% which features in the attached link.

    The link only refers to 5 – 15% in a single year – 1973. Recruitment was tightened up as a result of this report. So extrapolated over the full lifetime of the UDR, the figure will be nowhere near what you claim.

    15%, man, that turns out to be almost one in seven members of the UDR were state sponsered terrorists according to the govs own figures….

    It doesn’t for the reasons above, but also because the members in question were not “state-sponsored”: they were paramitaries who infiltrated the UDR, not the other way round.

    Try to be honest and objective.

  • “Recruitment was tightened up as a result of this report.…so extrapolated over the full lifetime of the UDR, the figure will be nowhere near what you claim.“

    that would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.

    15% from an INTERNAL report which will try and minimize the failure that was this state sponsored terrorist regiment. About a regiment who basis was sectarian as it came directly from the bigoted BSpecials and was also completely Protestant. What internal controls? – there were none and the UDR continued to provide employment for criminals, wasters and thugs. Now 34 years after that report, the character and recurring feature of it’s successor RIR, is of ingrained bigotry (orange parade in Baghdad and racist bebo sites).

    They should have shut down the UDR back then and admitted that it was tainted with bigotry and sectarianism. Then we wouldn’t have had the Glennane Gang who brought about the worse year (1974) and the Kingsmills killings all the way thro to the UDR 4 case and RIR man Jonathan Russell convicted of riot at Drumcree and RIR mocking the death of Rosemary Nelson.

    The RIR are a bigoted disgrace as were their murdering father’s in the UDR and their thug grandfathers in the B-Specials.

    “…they were paramitaries who infiltrated the UDR, not the other way round”

    state sponsored is the exact term for it as the British Govt knew that they’d hired the B Specials thugs and continued employing them. They knew there were sectarian killers in the UDR as the Irish Govt told them after the Dub Monaghan bombs. It a old British colonial custom to use indigenous elements (local thug paramilitaries like the UDR, whites in Rhodesia) to combat the nationalists. Get used to it…. you were used and abused by your masters for decades – prima noce howrya ?!?!

  • Turgon

    Anonymous
    “It a old British colonial custom to use indigenous elements (local thug paramilitaries like the UDR, whites in Rhodesia)”

    The whites in Rhodesia had a large degree of self government and their own army and airforce long before there was a significant campaign against white rule, hence the initial sucess of UDI. Nationalism pre UDI and for the first 5 years or so of UDI involved very little violence. The real military problems for the white Rhodesians only started about 1976.

    Also remember that Rhodesia declared UDI precisely because they did not want to accept the idea of admitting some black power (albeit very limited) in order to get Dominion status (like Australia, Canada etc.) as the British government demanded.

    As a separate point I have previously noted and welcomed your objection to all killings but the following
    “Then we wouldn’t have had the Glennane Gang who brought about the worse year (1974) and the Kingsmills killings ” begins to look like a justification for Kingsmill.

    I do not doubt that you are not using it as that but one needs to be careful in using a given atrocity to explain another. They may have been the excuses given by the murderers but they are only excuses by people who were only too happy to get on with murdering without any reason.

    “The RIR are a bigoted disgrace as were their murdering father’s in the UDR and their thug grandfathers in the B-Specials. ”

    I am sure there were bigots in all three of these organisations. I also knew and know multiple members of all three orgainsations who were not bigots. Denouncing all of them as bigots is grossly unfair and can help those who think the murder of these people was justifable.

  • there is no justification for Kingsmills (even Gerry came out against this years ago).

    The McCaughey (RUC), Jackson, R McConnell (UDR) killings (with the help of Chief SuperDooper RUC man Breen) of the O’Dowds (2 brothers & an uncle , all SDLP) and the Reaveys (3 brothers) on the same night, led to the Kingsmills killings a couple of days later. There is no justification. A reactionary killing (an old UDA rubbish excuse) is just a pathetic attempt to absolve oneself.

    However nothing should be looked at in isolation. The Glenanne Gang were the worst killers in the ’70’s… they were also, nearly to a man, members of the UDR, RUC and were in contact w the BA. They possibly killed as many as the Shankill Butchers.

    Conclusion: too many members of the UDR were involved in terrorism to be considered a ‘few bad apples’ therefore the battallion as a whole is comdemned. The British Gov knew thro’out and didn’t intervene therefore compliant and equally as guilty – state sponsored murders. RIR’s no different today or since inception; do I have to remind you of Poyntzpass?

  • John East Belfast

    anonymous

    The reason I asked you earlier if you were justifying the sectarian abuse of Darren because of his family’s connection to the UDR was because I could not see why on a thread about the GAA’s belated response to sectarianism within its own ranks you were filling up Mick’s expensive facility with 35 year old reports about the UDR ?

    What exactly is the connection to abuse in the GAA in the early 21st century if it is not Darren Graham ?

    Or is it just you are in complete denial and looking for a distraction ?

  • no JEB,
    I was originally commenting about DGraham & GAA, some one else brought up ethnic cleansing (over 35 years). I posted data showing the majority killed were security forces and not killed sole for their religion ie. ethnic cleansing. I use ‘official’ reports to back up my claims (where’s the counter-claims data and figures? oh we’ve now move to “perceptions”… as if this should be acceptable in discussing NI society !!).

    what’s your problem? don’t like where someone else brought this debate and want to get back talking about the GAA? lets just complain about the GAA?

    I didn’t bring the thread to ethnic cleansing nor to the UDR but now you want me to stop talking about this? Get a grip. I don’t think poor ol’ Mick’s site should be used just to slag off the GAA and speak about ethnic cleansing.

    How’s yer maths coming along? 2 + 2 still equals 22 ?

  • chewnic

    keep her lit,lads, keep her lit.

  • John East Belfast

    anonymous

    “what’s your problem? don’t like where someone else brought this debate and want to get back talking about the GAA? lets just complain about the GAA?”

    You are a very excitable chap i can just see you pouring over your ‘official reports’ jumping up and down as you find something to reinforce your already wharped prejudices !

    I just thought that the thread should stay on topic.

    Let me ask you this straight question – do you think PIRA was justified in killing Darren Graham’s Father and Uncle ?

  • “You are a very excitable chap…”

    and you’re big into perceptions – a probable source of some of NI’s problems. I’m actually a very mellow fellow and no one would ever call me a ‘chap’. I’m also seriously handsome if you want to pass that on to some females!!! (not)

    “I just thought that the thread should stay on topic. ”

    now that’s a big fat lie and your pants are on fire. You didn’t like the posts (or where an orange poster had brought the thread) and wanted to move it back to “fcuking GAA, us poor Protestants etc”

    “…do you think PIRA was justified in killing Darren Graham’s Father and Uncle ?

    no, nay, never !!!

    how come I’ve written this continually on this thread and the other Graham-GAA-UDR thread and I still have to answer it?

    I know some are eagerly awaiting me come out with ‘justifiable targets’, ‘collateral damage’ (a la MOD reports from Iraq about civilian deaths) and ‘they knew what they were getting into when they signed up’ but I won’t because that’s not what I think? Turgon accepted this, why don’t you?

    It’s quid pro quo time: “Let me ask you this straight question – do you think …” the UDR / Glennane Gang killiings or the UDR killing of Seamus Heany’s cousin or UDR killing of Patsy Kelly from Trillick (for which a Omagh DUP counciller was recently ‘interviewed) were justified?

    Contempory UDR: do you think the RIR killings in Poyntzpass was justified or the RIR slagging off the mourners of Rosemary Nelson was a good giggle?

  • John East Belfast

    anonymous

    My record of opposition to illegal activity – whether paramilitary or government has never waivered.

    Regarding the UDR I have both friends and relatives who served in it and not one of them was involved in paramilitarism or criminality of any kind.

    Indeed if it wasnt for the forces of law and order – RUC, Army, UDR/RIR and the Court Service – then NI would have been a much more unpleasnat place to live.

    The vast majority of all of these people were honourable and courageous people.

    Now you can go scraping the bottom of the barrel all you like to justify what you already believe but this kind of discussion regularly occurs on Slugger and I am up for it when the context arises on related thread.

    Meanwhile the real topic of the thread was about the reaction of the GAA to Darren Graham.

    If you dont want to discuss those hard home truths then that is your problem but dont hide behind a lot of bluster about security force collusion – it is quite pathetic actually.

  • liar, liar, pants on fire.

    “Indeed if it wasnt for the forces of law and order – RUC, Army, UDR/RIR and the Court Service – then NI would have been a much more unpleasnat place to live. ”

    they were the source of a lot of the problems in NI. Not, however, from your orange tinted viewpoint – they were probably all every nice chaps altogether from when you met them.

    A very large % of the population (maybe 50%) hated (many with venom and most with good reason) firstly the BSpecial/UDR, secondly the RUC/BA and lastly the courts. They weren’t courageous as, when fully armed, they bullied and attacked young nationalists (especially GAA fans) with impunity – not very honourable of them.

    “…scraping the bottom of the barrel all you like to justify…”

    now JEB, you asked me a direct question and I gave you a direct answer. I asked you questions and you don’t answer them but post a generalized, unconvincing lightweight pulp and then move to accusing me of scrapping the barrel. Something not quite fair there!! Answer the questions ask and don’t claim that all those killings by the UDR was barrel scraping.

    As for my relatives; not a one ever knew what a gun was like (they would have been closer to caulking guns) and the rest’s uniform would have been a nurses’. We’ve never had the need to pick up a gun for honour (whether misplaced or not). Now that, darth, is a high horse !!!

  • John East Belfast

    anonymous

    I am sorry but this is way too infantile and boring for me – bye

  • what hurt you?

    was it the following…

    now JEB, you asked me a direct question and I gave you a direct answer. I asked you questions and you don’t answer them but post a generalized, unconvincing lightweight pulp and then move to accusing me of scrapping the barrel. Something not quite fair there!! Answer the questions ask and don’t claim that all those killings by the UDR was barrel scraping.

  • willowfield

    anonymous

    15% from an INTERNAL report which will try and minimize the failure that was this state sponsored terrorist regiment.

    The whole purpose of the report was to get a grip on a situation in which loyalists had infiltrated the UDR. Recruitment was tightened up as a result of the report. Extrapolated over the full lifetime of the UDR, the figure will be nowhere near what you claim. You’re being dishonest, which indicates that your views are based on naked prejudice rather than an objective assessment of the facts.

    About a regiment who basis was sectarian as it came directly from the bigoted BSpecials and was also completely Protestant.

    Actually, it replaced the B-Specials specifically to rectify that perception and its purpose was to be a cross-community force. It achieved 18% RC recruitment at the start, but this declined rapidly due to IRA intimidation. It is simply a lie to say that was “completely Protestant”. Again, you’re not dealing in facts: merely your own prejudices.

    What internal controls? – there were none and the UDR continued to provide employment for criminals, wasters and thugs.

    You’ve no evidence for this at all: a completely worthless statement.

  • Turgon

    Anonymous,

    Can I suggest the problem with your posts and the respoinse you get is that you do genuninely oppose violence. I accept that entirely.

    However, your language when describing especially the UDR is extremely one sided and involves blanket condemnation of a very large number of people (only some of whom deserve it) without any acceptance that many of us have relatives who were in the UDR and were not evil bigoted thugs. My wife’s relatives who were in the UDR are (and were) honest people who felt it was their duty to join. They were also quite wealthy so employment was clearly not their motive. Unless they are hiding their secrets extremely well I see no bigotry let alone paramilitarism in them.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “(with the help of Chief SuperDooper RUC man Breen)”
    a contemptible and dishonest slur on a dead man without a shred of evidence is,of course, par for the course for Provos. Something to do with salving what passes for a conscience.
    Perhaps Turgon is too charitable in attributing some decency to your posts. It seems a very sickly child, judging by this.

  • Willow, your post hard deserves recognition as it’s complete rubbish. Controls… then why did the UDR / RIR continue with some of the worst killings of the troubles up until Poyntzpass. You want me to be objective? Then get back to me with my earlier request to review the report on the UDR with you highlighting the positives about these thugs as cross community do-gooders?

    “Actually, it replaced the B-Specials”

    actually, it was SUPPOSED TO REPLACE the disgraced B Special but signed up almost everyone from that brutal grouping of unemployables.

    Turgon “…your language when describing especially the UDR is extremely one sided and involves blanket condemnation…”
    Of course it is. I have complete and total contempt for the UDR. As for one sided, why not – I’m not here to discuss the UDR as opposed to their opposition – I’m here to point out their bigotry and their murders which JEB considers just scrapping the barrel (what ever this measns). This isn’t a one side is as bad as the other discussion. We were talking about the ethnic cleansing in Ferm and moved to the UDR. I’m voicing my opinion

    darth “…a contemptible and dishonest slur on a dead man without a shred of evidence is…”

    yeah right. Breen was involved with the Gleanne Gang from the get go (see point 20, 21, 27, 28 & 29) …. http://www.seeingred.com/Copy/2.1_CODE_weiraff.html
    Get back to me when you’ve finished reading the link and your first line should be “sorry, I didn’t know that Breen was involved in sectarian terrorism while a head of the RUC, it’s not usually written about in Unionist media”.

    [see commenting policy – edited moderator]

  • 1. edited by you Mick or one of the others? I know the posting policies & rules of this site; I followed them.

    2. why was it edited? All the names I listed are in the public forum and published in Weir’s affadavit (for the public to read)? Therefore there’s no risk of suit against you and if anyone wanted to sue Weir they have to explain why it took them so many years to sue.

    3. Most of the names mentioned are dead or were convicted of Glenanne Gang crimes (usually murder) so there no defamation involved.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “darth “…a contemptible and dishonest slur on a dead man without a shred of evidence is…”

    yeah right. Breen was involved with the Gleanne Gang”

    Yawn. Not impressed

    OK, I’ll insert the word “credible” into my sentence if it helps. A policeman convicted of MURDER after an investigation by his colleagues can hardly be given much credence when he then makes uncorroborated allegations against the force no matter how many Bibles he swears on.

    Something to do with the fact that by committing serious crimes while serving as an upholder of the law just suggests a propensity to dishonesty, wouldn’t you think?

  • you may not find him credible but the honourable members of the judicary should (if someone had the guts to ask Weir to step into the witness box). They accepted the un corraborated words of the super-grasses back in the day didn’t they? Sauce for the goose and all that!!

    but of course who would investigate before things went to court… shurely the RUC / PNSI? But wait some of them and or the cops as a whole would be the ones being investigated, oh what a tangled web they weave!!

    and that’s why they got away with it for so long… “few bad apples” ? nah, rotten to the core.

    Yawn, you were’nt meant to be impressed. I was hoping you’d take off your blinkers and realize why NI society is the way it is… original thinking and all that. Breen was a State Sponsored Terrorist w the rest of the Glenanne Gang – as shown by the affadivt of his co conspirator Weir !!

  • Billy

    JEB

    I don’t agree with much of what anonymous says but 1 thing is correct.

    You asked him a direct question about condoning or condemning specific incidents and he answered it directly.

    He asked you a direct question about specific incidents involving the UDR and you avoided it with pointless waffle about you knowing lots of UDR members and not one of them was sectarian (zzzz).

    It’s amazing – you can meet lots of older people in France who were in the resistance or supported it. You never meet anyone who was a willing participant in the Vichy collaboration regime.

    British figures have shown that the autorities knew of many strong links between many UDR members and “loyalist” paramilitaries. Indeed, in the 70’s the UDR was the single largest source of arm to “loyalist” paramilitaries.

    Then we have the Glenanne gang, Miami Showband and the many UDR personnel who were imprisoned for sectarian crimes.

    However, it’s amazing how all the posters like you on this site knew many, many UDR personnel and not one of them was anti-Catholic or sectarian in any way. These few anti-Catholic “bad apples” in the UDR/RIR must have been very busy indeed and never slept for years. In fact, in some cases they seem to have been in 2 or 3 places at once.

    Your attempt at weaseling out of answering the question that anonymous posed

    “I am sorry but this is way too infantile and boring for me”

    is transparent and pathetic.

    It is clear that you are either unwilling or unable to privide a direct answer to a direct question.

    Your childish attempt at disguising this fact doesn’t fool anyone.

  • Turgon

    Darth,

    You were right, I was rather too charitable. Anonymous may not be a supporter of the IRA but s/he seems to be incapable of ascribing any good motives to the UDR or RUC. Considering the level of vitriol heaped on these organisations and the venom with which s/he answers any unionist poster; one begins to wonder if s/he can ascribe any good motives to any unionists. Certainly unionist engagement seems not to be doing too well here.