Truth, half-truth and nothing like the truth..

Sinn Féin’s Gerry Adams has been promoting his party’s March for Half-Truth again and is talking up the prospect of extending its declared objectives.. He’s also been criticising the Eames/Bradley consultative group – “I have problems in relation to its remit”. But it’s the BBC report on the press conference which points to one of the reasons why I and, I’d suggest, others are sceptical of his self-appointed role as a ‘campaigner for truth’ – “he said criticism of his own past should not mask the central issue.” [and which past would that be, Gerry? – Ed]

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  • oldruss

    Is it not fair, irrespective of whether it’s Gerry Adams or Ian Paisley, who is calling for “the Truth”, that the British government make full disclosure of all of its involvement in the Troubles?

    Lord Stevens cobbled together something like 25 files, I think it was, in which he felt probable cause existed for prosecution, only to have the PPS refuse to proceed. Does that not give rise to the reasonable conclusion that the grand cover up is continuing?

    It would seem no longer a matter of whether or not there should be full disclosure, but only the manner in which it can best be brought about.

  • slug

    Gerry “I wasn’t in the IRA” Adams calls for truth.

  • slug

    The ‘truth’ on Bloody Sunday cost so far £180m.

    Perspective: that’s about three times the £70m cost of the new high quality dual carraige way from the M22 to Castledawson. (see here).

    Lets invest our money, friends.

  • oldruss

    Perhaps if Lord Widgery had done his job properly a the Saville Inquiry into the events at Derry, 30 January, 1972, would not have been necessary; and perhaps, if the British Army had made full and complete disclosure of all facts at the outset, the Exchequer would have not had to expend the amount of funds it has expended.

    The real problem will be when the latest report into the events at Derry, 30 January, 1972, is finally released, and all we have are blank pages, because the British government and British Army have stonewalled the Saville Inquiry.

    The mere existence of the Saville Inquiry, some thirty-five plus years out from that Sunday in Derry, only supports the need for full disclosure by the British government, and not the other way round.

  • circles

    Somebody though should run with this and go for all the truth like a fierce wee pitbull.
    I mean FFS Gerry, we want the truth about Scap, Lough Gall, you and the masked men and all that as much as we want the collusion stuff.

  • lib2016

    It’s interesting that there is no attempt to deny or query the substance of Gerry’s demands for truth just the usual what-aboutery. ‘Self-appointed’? FFS he’s the leader of the largest nationalist party in NI and speaks for a large part of the electorate who have supported him repeatedly at the ballot box.

    Is there any hope that the unionist posters on this site will ever try and get their heads around this democracy thing?

    The UUP reneged on the GFA and suffered because the voters really aren’t that stupid. The electorate knows that we need powersharing and an agreed future, which will include an acknowledgement from the British Government of it’s dirty war.

    The IRA have turned their weapons into ploughsnares and it’s time for the Brits and their glovepuppets in the UDA to do likewise.

  • Garibaldy

    I might be being undly cynical here, but, given the deal that was struck over OTR’s and no prosecutions of government personnel, I suspect very strongly that the main reason for this march is to continue the appearance of being an active, campaigning and oppositional party while actually now being the establishment.

    Clearly a lot of disgraceful things from government sources happened during the Troubles, especially springing from the army’s attitude to civilian life in the early 1970s in places like Ballymurphy, not just Derry. The people who lost loved ones deserve an apology and an acknowledgement from government of the mistakes made. But I think for society as a whole neither a series of endless inquiries nor a trutch commission would be useful, or in fact effective.

  • lib2016

    There have been recent trials in Italy over administrative actions taken during WW2, and in America over murders of Civil Rights workers in the 60’s.

    There is no reason to believe that the actions of Mount Vernon loyalists in recent years aided and abetted by HM Forces as they were are different in character or less culpable merely because the British Government is belatedly withdrawing from Ireland.

    If Pinochet can be hounded to the grave then let’s have the Brigadiers in court, and if Britain won’t clean it’s own house then do it in the Hague. Let’s see just how far up the trail can be followed.

    It’ll end when the torturors and murderers are dead or locked up, not before.

  • Turgon

    So Gerry and co are after the truth are they?

    I have no special knowledge but some degree of collusion probably did happen. How much was there? unclear. What effect did it have, probably not that much in the great scheme of things but clearly a great deal to anyone whose family members were murdered or injured as a result of it. Was any collusion done to try to minimise the total ammount of death and destruction? Quite probably but that in no way excuses it. Collusion between the state and terroists is unacceptable. I guess it can start as just informers in organistaions and esclate. Maybe the line was fine at times but I suspect that most people would actually be aware (with hindsight at least) when it had been crossed and something perfectly reasonable (informers) had become something wrong (collusion).

    The Saville enquiry will no doubt come out and if it says the parachute regiment murdered those people it will be lauded and further enquiries demanded. If it says anything else there will be further howls of cover up and further enquiries demanded.

    A vast elephant in the room of getting at the “truth” is, however, the IRA campagin.

    SF/IRA admit to have caused hurt but that is hardly much of the “truth” is it?

    Why will Martin McGuiness not tell us whether or not he killed people or sanctioned their deaths?

    Why did the IRA not admit Kingsmill? Indeed have they ever admitted it?

    Why did the IRA lie about the Enniskillen bombing?

    The list could go on and on.

    Various posters have previously told us that nothing would be gained by the IRA telling us these things and anyway how would we know if they are telling the truth? Well exactly the same could be said about the British government.

    If the British governemt told us what the security forces know / suspect about the various murders then it would be up to the IRA to try to deny these “truths”

    Also if the British government did state that Martin McGuiness had been in cahoots with the government for 20 or 30 years how would that “truth” be recieved by the republican movement? How would the republican movement take to being told that the IRA leadership helped ensure Loughgall, if indeed they did?

    The truth sought by SF is a truth for their own ends. It would be a partial truth and any bits they did not like would no doubt be denied. As Garibaldy says it may well be they are not interested in any relevations just in being seen to want them.

    Lib 2016, you want your truth because of a democratic mandate for SF, well do the unionist community deserve truth? As to “it will end when the torturors and murderers are dead or locked up, not before.” what about Martin and Gerry do you want them and their friends locked up or just dead?

  • George

    Slug,

    “Perspective: that’s about three times the £70m cost of the new high quality dual carraige way from the M22 to Castledawson. (see here).

    Lets invest our money, friends.”

    That is what is called false economy. Invest in necessary truth and you will get honest toil in return.

  • confused

    The truth will never be known so lets stop fooling ourselves and draw a line under the past.
    If GA insists on the brits coming clean about their activities the rest of us will insist on GA telling us what he knows about SF/IRA and their crimes but perhaps I have made a mistake because they did not commit any crime!
    Lets move on and forget.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Lib2116: ‘It’ll end when the torturors and murderers are dead or locked up, not before.’

    Actually Lib most were released under the GFA.

    Surely even the most blinkered SF supporter must be tiring of Gerry’s endless search for the truth whilst denying his own past.

    The man certainly has some neck on him. Having signed up to partition, decommissioning, administering British rule and the PSNI, he’s now wanting to march against the establishment he’s firmly in bed with. Anyone remember the ‘make partition history’ campaign whilst simultaneously signing up to the consent principle? Adams antics are becoming increasingly tedious and he’s well on course to pass John Hume’s world boredom record sometime in 2009.

    Face it folks, SF are a beaten docket. They’ve played all their cards and failed abysmally to deliver a UI, gain support for the left or impress the southern electorate. Now that they’re just another party without weaponry, no-one wants to know.

    All Gerry has to offer is a sad revisionist notion of the troubles and the odd protest march that most people could care less about. The man and his party deserve nothing more than to be roundly ignored.

  • lib2016

    Turgon,

    If you have evidence of wrongdoing by anybody then present it to whatever authorities you believe in or make it public.

    I’m quite happy to see the law take it’s course. The question of whether violence was done by republicans or unionists or by the British authorities is simply immaterial. If Justice isn’t blind then it’s not justice.

    How long does it take for unionists to understand that Sinn Fein has gathered support as it moved away from violence?

    The IRA and Sinn Fein have repeatedly apologised for Enniskillen and regretted ALL the killings. When we will see their opponents do likewise or are these daft attempts to divide the dead into ‘good’ victims and ‘bad’ victims to continue forever?

    And the nonsense about McGuinness and Adams being run by the Brits? It’s black propaganda of the most obvious kind. The final sign of the huge cultural gap that exists here and the reason why the Brits are leaving – they simply can’t govern us because we’re different.

  • lib2016

    GLC,

    …and yet the Council of Europe demands that the British Government introduces proper inquiries here. The mills of justice grind slowly but there are a lot of survivors left to see that they continue to grind.

    Never mind – another sixty years or so and it should all go away. 😉

  • Cuchulainn

    lib2016

    the IRA have repeatedly apologised for ALL the killings????

    im sorry but i dont recall them ever coming out and saying sorry for killings,they still mintain to this day that gene mcconnville was an informer!

    they still claim that the IRA fought a “JUST WAR” which to everyone else seems to mean every death was just! unless ur taking a different meaning to the full thing???

  • lib2016

    Cuchulainn,

    Read what I wrote. Then attempt to reply to it.

    Goodnight

  • Turgon

    Lib 2016,
    “The final sign of the huge cultural gap that exists here and the reason why the Brits are leaving – they simply can’t govern us because we’re different.”

    You really do not get it or consistently ignore it. You feel different from the “Brits”, most unionists feel British. Yes maybe they are a distinct sub group of the British but the majority still feel British.

    In terms of the “Brits” leaving as you are so fond of. I feel a “Brit” what do you do about me?

    As to the IRA apologising for Enniskillen, I do not regard their weasel words as an apology and you will go a long way before you get many unionists to regard anything that SF/IRA have said as an apology. Yes they regret that they “had” to kill us. How kind of them.

    You want an enquiry into collusion and such like. Why do you not see that enquiries into numerous IRA crimes would be appropriate? Also of course enquiries into alledged RoI collusion in terrorism?

  • GMA

    Lib,

    “If you have evidence of wrongdoing by anybody then present it to whatever authorities you believe in or make it public” .. apply the same to your previous comments.

    Do you seriously believe apologies can suffice when people demand the truth?

    You really highlight you don’t have any fecking understanding of the magnitude of the suffering that militant republicans have inflicted on society.

    Sure it was all just for the greater good and and all a bit ‘o craic, no harm done.

  • GavBelfast

    Any time I see or hear Gerry Adams this weather, it strikes me that he is struggling to appear relevant, at a bit of a lose end. Now with this latest ruse, credibility must surely be a problem, unless this is the time to bite the bullet, take a cue from the now Deputy First Minister, and come clean?

  • If Pinochet can be hounded to the grave then let’s have the Brigadiers in court, and if Britain won’t clean it’s own house then do it in the Hague. Let’s see just how far up the trail can be followed.

    Just remember, lib, that what is sauce for the goose is what is sauce for the gander. Are the IRA going to come clean about Enniskillen, La Mon, Kingsmill, and dozens of other actions that were within it’s own terms of reference war crimes? I’d haul all the bastards up in court – the Brigadiers and the Active Service Units – but do remember that the Brits and the Shinners cut a deal to keep all of this out of the courts.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Lib:
    Never mind – another sixty years or so and it should all go away. 😉

    Well at least you’re accepting that NI will be under British jurisdiction for at least the next 60 years. Progress my friend progress 🙂

  • Belfast Gonzo

    lib

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the IRA ‘regret’ civilian deaths only?

  • Donnacha

    I always knew that Gerry Adams had a brass neck, but this just proves he has a neck like a jockey’s bollocks. If he wants the truth, surely he must understand that he must be fothcoming with same before demanding it of others. Either everyone will have to come clean (including yourself, Gerry) or we’ll just have to put up with some of the more sordid (and that’s saying something) secrets remaining just that – secret.

  • Crataegus

    On one hand the pragmatist in me says bury the past and move on, but on the other experience tells me that building on a spider web of lies, half truths and misrepresentations is generally the road to nowhere. In the end someone somewhere breaks rank or seeks to use his knowledge to his advantage. It is the honour among thieves scenario.

    The problem with a framework based on lies and half truths is,

    1 Who is compromised?
    2 To whom are they compromised?
    3 Being compromised whose interests are they serving?
    4 It is folly to trust anyone because you don’t know the constraints they are working within. Who pulls the strings?
    5 In this environment how can the average person have confidence in those involved, the politicians, the UK government, the PSNI and parts of the legal system?
    6 No one believes a lot of it anyway. So the end result is to corrode confidence and reinforce cynicism.

    There is always a high price for maintaining a facade based on lies and often it is better that the truth be out. There are a lot of ‘honourable’ people out there with the sword of Damocles hanging over them. If they had any sense they would retire to the backwoods and let others without a past do the running.
    for many.

    Apart from that there is the small matter of the pursuit of Justice , naive concept perhaps, but I still think an important principle. I hope that many of them succeed for we will all benefit for let us face it the lies merely add a veneer of respectability to those who have been responsible for the most serious of crimes.

  • Yokel

    Possibly no sense of irony that boy Gerry.

    More likely, though, he knows this is all show. Everything all going to be hushed up and he’d prefer that really because its partially for his benefit.

    I wouldnt call it bare faced cheek on his part, just that he’s fronting a load of hot air and possibly some people who were victims and related to victims actually put any hope in this when Gerry knows its all going nowhere.

    So I think the appropriate phrase is User.

    Yet again though…no orginality..black ribbon…first it was green…which was nicked off many a campaign such as breast cancer or yellow ribbons for troops in the USA, those imperialist bastards. Not an original thought in their heads.

  • Levitas

    Whatever about Gerry Adams and the truth, get a real bit of Irish ‘Pravda’ at the new weblog ‘An Unrepentant Communist’ coming from somewhere near the River Feale…see it at http://unrepentantcommunist.blogspot.com/

    It links to Slugger…and its got a different take on some things

  • BogExile

    ‘…then do it in the Hague’

    Sorry lib, for all your posturing and bleating, our squalid little sectarian bunfight doesn’t register on the War crimes radar.

    But we can be certain that you and your diminishing band of victim fetishists will go on until it’s a cold day in hell demanding your right to a sanitised, morally void bright green version of ‘truth.’

    Btw: I’m sure you’re right about the Securocrats not recruiting Gerry as they infliltrated and completely compromised PIRA. They needed useful idiots not plain idiots.

  • Garibaldy

    Levitas,

    Interesting to see a supposed communist condemn correctly religious nationalism in Afghanistan while lauding the so-called ‘achievements’ of religious nationalists in NI. A disgrace to the very name. Thanks for a link that reminds me why it’s so important to promote a real socialist agenda.

  • BogExile

    THAT MARCH TIMETABLE IN FULL:

    Loyalist:

    March: Marching because it’s March
    July: Marching as to war
    August – March: March all places we didn’t March before

    Republican:

    March: March to off licence and then riot
    April: March for fuck sake!
    September: March For Truth with Gerry
    October: March for Child Care with King Herod
    December: March for Christmas with Turkeys

  • circles

    BE – whilst the noise of you grinding that axe sets my teeth on edge you do have a point.
    Its no use calling for one set of sheets to be washed when all the beds are filthy. Republicans have to be ready to face up to their own passed – maybe even set an example by actually doing something for the truth rather than just crying out for everybody elses.

  • Hogan from County Tyrone

    This smacks of a high profile way of gerry settling the nerves of the republican grassroots who think he’s a busted flush who wrote them a United Ireland cheque that bounced.

    If anyone had said previous to the Southern elections if the shinners did badly what sort of campaign would they embark upon it would be ‘big bad brits collusion etc.’

    When a party gets a kick in the balleex like the provo’s got it is only natural that they return to their natural habitat? Lets just hope that the Provo’s don’t go back too far????

    I think i’ll go put a couple of grand on Conor Murphy for leader…

  • lib2016

    The demands for inquiries into what the government did here will continue. The first steps in making sure that Europe backs those demands are to demonstrate that there is a need for them which will require a campaign. This is obviously only the start of that campaign but it’s truly surprising how few real objections unionists can conjure up, and the Council of Europe is already expressing an interest.

    The need for inquiries into what the IRA or the loyalists got up to is quite separate but I for one wouldn’t see any strong objection to it coming from most republicans. Unionists seem to want to resist all inquiries and one has to ask why that is. Just what are they so afraid of?

  • Granni Trixie

    “The medium is the message”: at last Adams seems to recognise that he has baggage which gets in the way when he tries to represent the interests of people who have suffered in the troubles –
    Granni Trixie

  • all this is, is for the optics, the annual feile march for the tourists.

  • oldruss

    Has the British government, being the government, a higher standard that should be met? Should the bar have been set higher for the Army, MI5, FRU, RUC, etc.? Should the police in any democracy be allowed any and all means to fight the criminals, becoming no better than the criminals themselves?

    It seems that if the government, to whom a good portion of those living in the six counties still render loyality, fidelty, alligence, etc., does not follow the rules, whatever those rules are, should not that government and those who served it be called to task for whatever transgressions were committed, before it, itself, goes about handing out opprobrium in anyone else’s direction?

  • Dewi

    what on earth is happening to the Bloody Sunday inquiry anyway ? At this rate it will last longer than the troubles.

  • lib2016

    ‘what on earth is happening to the Bloody Sunday inquiry anyway?’

    It was and is designed to deal with an internationally embarrassing incident by drowning it in legal gobbledegook. That’s what it’s for and that’s why no action was taken when the British Ministry of Defence obstructed it from finding what actually happened as far as it could.

  • Cruimh

    SDLP attacks Sinn Féin over Belfast ‘truth’ march

    “insensitive, repugnant and hypocritical”

    http://breaking.tcm.ie/ireland/mhcwcwojidql/

  • The Penguin

    I’m with Maurice Hayes on this one, either let’s have all of the truth or none of it. Half-truths and the cherry-picking of incidents only serves certain ends.
    Personally, I think it’s impossible for the total truth to be revealed so we should just leave it.

    But there’s no chance of that either.

    As I was driving along today, I was only sort of half-listening to Talkback. Then an interview with Martien O’Muellior (I have no idea how it’s spelt properly) caught my attention. It was broadly about this business of truth.
    God, I’ve never listened to a worse interview in my life. The interviewer, Kevin somebody (Dunseith must be on holiday), couldn’t have been more deferential if he had started calling him sir.
    It was unbelievable. Richard and Judy are Paxman in comparison to this guy. He was interviewing the Shinners chief propogandist and all he could do was agree with everything he said, and even add bits to it at times.
    Now I know the programme has gone downhill quite a bit but I’ve always resisted buying into this claim that it’s biased towards the Shinners.
    Not any more.
    And with this sort of assistance you can bet Gerry and the gang will continue full steam ahead with their process of truth, half-truth and nothing like the truth.

  • justthoughtidask

    Penguin

    Heard Talkback myself today. I thought exactly the same as you, this guy Kevin sounded completely in awe of O’Millionaire.
    Either he’s a new start or a member of O’Millionaire’s fan club.

  • The demands for inquiries into what the government did here will continue.

    Lib, answer the point – is that just for the Brits or do the Provies get inquired into as well.

    Has the British government, being the government, a higher standard that should be met? Should the bar have been set higher for the Army, MI5, FRU, RUC, etc.?

    I would have agreed with that statement in the past oldruss, but some of our new Ministers are people who were at the most senior levels of the IRA when they tortured informers in some of the most ghastly ways this side of a concentration camp, engaged in their proxy bombing campaign, crucified teenage car thieves, etc. And bombed Enniskillen and Teebane. This we know. With power comes responsibility. No-one is arguing this will be easy for the Republican Movement. But it will be right.

    I’m with Maurice Hayes on this one, either let’s have all of the truth or none of it.

    All of it.

  • lib2016

    Sammy Morse,

    I support any genuine inquiries into what happened here, whoever was responsible and whatever justification is put forward for what was done. That would mean that there must be an international presence in such inquiries. The British Government investigating itself has form.

    Why would anyone think that I should feel that such inquiries should be only in to the actions of one party? I’ve regularly condemned violence from all parties here, including republican violence.

  • Why would anyone think that I should feel that such inquiries should be only in to the actions of one party? I’ve regularly condemned violence from all parties here, including republican violence.

    Fair enough, lib, and point taken. Your approach to the thread did seem a little one-sided before.

  • oldruss

    Sammy Morse,

    Making the argument that the present day leaders of Sinn Fein, who are presently in government in the six counties, were/are guilty of physical violence during the Troubles, begs the question, should not the British government have been held to a higher standard?

    Your argument seemingly begins and ends with the premise that the Irish-Republican movement committed unspeakable acts of violence, and you tick off a number of examples. But conceeding for the sake of argument, that all of the acts attributed to the Irish-Republican movement during the Troubles are a given, that does not excuse the British goverment from acting as it has acted, does it?

    Take the events at Derry, 30 January, 1972, as an example. The British Paratroop Regiment killed 14 civil rights marchers, and even today, 30 plus years later, no member of that Regiment, and no officer of that Regiment, and no civilian in the MOD has yet to be charged with any crime or sanctioned in any manner whatsoever. Is the lesson we are to learn from this one incident that the actions of the Paratroop Regiment were justifiable? Was the use of deadly force acceptable solely because it was the British Army? Would such actions have been equally acceptable if those using the deadly force were instead members of the Irish Republican Army?

    If the British government is not to be held to any standard, then no person whom the police believed committed a crime of violence would be entitled to trial, but rather only deserve summary execution under a “shoot on sight” order. There would be no presumption of innocence until proven guilty, and the police would be the sole arbiters of right and wrong, good and evil, guilt or innocence.

    It’s long past time that the government and all of its agents be held accountable in the same manner as the government seeks to hold its enemies accountable for their actions.

  • DC

    “Sinn Féin’s Gerry Adams has been promoting his party’s March for Half-Truth again”

    Fucking brilliant! Well put.