“the good guys in Carrickfergus..”

Thanks to commenter Dewi for this link to the Economist’s take on the unfolding saga of the ‘good’ and ‘not so good’ UDA.. or as David Ford put it recently, “the notion that there is somehow one baddie faction of the UDA and one goodie faction of the UDA seems to me to be absolute rubbish.” According to the Economist, where “stupid” questions are apparently off the menu, “The UDA’s attempt to be the good guys in Carrickfergus may be yet another advance.” Needless to say I don’t agree, not least for the reasons given by David Ford, the description of one faction as “the good guys” nor of it being “an advance”, and while the Economist is being a well-behaved very co-operative witness, they do add one usefully succinct paragraph on The Process™

The British and Irish governments, desperate to bring peace, have flattered loyalist leaders with meetings in London and Dublin, and provided funds to clean up objectionable graffiti. Mary McAleese, a Belfast Catholic and Ireland’s president, has spent much of her time in office trying to lessen loyalist suspicion of the Irish state. Her husband, Martin, has introduced loyalists to potential donors, and the couple treat Mr McDonald as a friend: Mrs McAleese greets him with hugs and her husband takes him golfing.

That would be this Jackie McDonald.. or this one.. or this one.. or even this one.. and on that ‘good’ UDA.. I’ve asked it before – “the right balance?”

, , ,

  • dave smith

    any idea who wrote that?

  • Dewi

    any idea who wrote that?

    Dunno – Economist funny like that – don’t say who writes things. Often surprised at how insightful it is though.

  • Pete Baker
  • Mick Fealty

    It’s tradition that the Economist never uses bylines… a slightly bizarre 19th Century habit. Though some do say it is the Borg. The paper itself explains:

    “It is written anonymously, because it is a paper whose collective voice and personality matter more than the identities of individual journalists. This ensures a continuity of tradition and view which few other publications have matched”.

    It would be a pleasant departure from tradition if people could just deal with what it says, rather than looking for another scapegoat.

  • dave smith

    With all due respect, that is illogical, pious nonsense. Of course the identity of the author of an opinion piece (or a report which certainly has a degree of opinion expressed) is relevant to how we digest it. It provides context. As it happens in this instance I was just genuinely curious, I have no particular problem with what is said.
    It’s fairly tame and obvious stuff, while pretty well written.

  • dave smith

    PS I have seen Fionulla O’Connor bylined in that organ many times.

  • Mick Fealty

    dave,

    It’s only that I have lost count of the times that the messenger has been shot… The argument should stand (or fall) on it’s own merits…

  • dave smith

    I don’t doubt it Mick, but I don’t think that negates my point 🙂

  • Pete Baker

    “..I have no particular problem with what is said. It’s fairly tame and obvious stuff, while pretty well written.”

    If you agree with the article, dave, then it would be better to argue the case..

  • dave smith

    I was curious is all! Sheesh. It’s far from irrelevant. I like to know who is talking to me.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    “dave

    That would be ‘playing the man’ territory.”

    Posted by Pete Baker on Jul 29, 2007 @ 10:27 PM

    Eh? How is it playing the man to ask who wrote a piece in the Economist?

    To address the subject in question;

    1) Why all this – “That would be this Jackie McDonald.. or this one.. or this one.. or even this one.. and on that ‘good’ UDA..”

    That infers that Jackie has two sides to him, that he cuddles up to the McAleese’s one minute and is off running the Wombles the next…that is just not true. If you read all five of those links you’ll find he has been 100% consistent in everything he says – No decommisioning until the political and social climate of Ulster is right and that the criminals within the D.A. need to be marginalised and ultimately expelled from the ranks of the UDA to enable the other members who are committed to transforming the Association into a force for good within loyalist communities, can continue their work without others within the ranks undoing all their good work by pursuing “the dollar”…

    2) In response to David Ford – what does he know? He’s an Englishman, how can he comment from his high moral ground on the “evil” UDA when he hasn’t lived in a loyalist housing estate/area. I can say, hand on heart, that I know no “evil” UDA men and I live in a loyalist estate. I’m not saying there aren’t any within the ranks, that would be naive of me, but there are plenty of bent peelers, screws and squaddies, yet that doesn’t make the PSNI, NI Prison Service or RIR corrupt organisations. As for his remark that “the notion that there is somehow one baddie faction of the UDA and one goodie faction of the UDA seems to me to be absolute rubbish” – he’s right, there isn’t a “goodie” and a “baddie” UDA, there is ONE UDA, made up of some 40,000 members, all with one thing in common – they are loyalist in their ideals. The “Beyond Conflict” faction of South-East Antrim have not overnight become a bunch of scumbags and they are not a separate entity to the so-called “mainstream”. They have just lost their way somewhat thanks to poor advice and political leadership from their officers. There are criminals within S.E.A. and that element needs rooted out and told they are no longer welcome within any area under S.E.A. control. If, or as I hope, when this happens, I don’t think it will be too long before the “Beyond Conflict” grouping come round to the way of thinking of the majority of the S.E.A. Brigade – that any community initiative or request for funding for community projects would be better served by working together towards the same goal and that by establishing an independent “Beyond Conflict” group, they are doing more harm than good and are undermining the UPRG’s tireless work to help the UDA in conflict transformation work…it’s not the guns and bombs that need decommisioned, it’s the mindsets of, in particular, the young UYM and UDA/UFF volunteers.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    By the way, are you all glad to see me back. I was on hiatus there for a few months. I decided to stop posting in protest at my treatment by some republican commentators (you know who you are). I was treated with utter contempt, disrespect and prejudice and if it happens again I’ll bid Slugger farewell for good…just so you know.

    On a lighter note, it’s good to be back and I trust everyone enjoyed their Twelfth fortnight holidays, even though some of you may not enjoy the actual parades as much because you mistake our pride in our culture and heritage for blind bigotry and triumphalism…

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Concerned Loyalist: “That infers that Jackie has two sides to him,”

    No, it *implies* that he has two faces…

    A statement does “infer” anything. Statements imply, readers infer.

    Concerned Loyalist: “No decommisioning until the political and social climate of Ulster is right and that the criminals within the D.A. need to be marginalised and ultimately expelled from the ranks of the UDA to enable the other members who are committed to transforming the Association into a force for good within loyalist communities, can continue their work without others within the ranks undoing all their good work by pursuing “the dollar”… ”

    So, we are treated to the spectacle of armed hoodlums continuing their extortion businesses under the pretense of defending NI, whilst listening to the repeated spin of a “good” UDA and a “bad” UDA, whilst “demostrations of strength” occur in the streets. Bravo.

    Concerned Loyalist: “I can say, hand on heart, that I know no “evil” UDA men and I live in a loyalist estate.”

    Mayhap, but what would a fish know about water? There can be the matter of being too close to an issue or organization.

    Concerned Loyalist: “By the way, are you all glad to see me back. I was on hiatus there for a few months.”

    Hadn’t noticed, actually…

  • Oilibhear Chromaill

    I have to say that I deeply resent a great deal about these attempts of flattery and bribery by the British and Irish Governments to woo loyalists on board – their tack with republicans was very much the stick while it seems to be the carrot with the loyalists.

    One of the most galling aspects of it is the golf trips to the K Club for Jackie McDonald as the guest of Martin McAleese. I have an interest in golf but would never dream of playing at a venue which would cost a week’s wages or more in green fees. I play an occasional round of golf at a public golf course in the south Belfast area, a place which by all accounts is in the bailiwick of Jackie McDonald. On the fourth green still visible after four years, are the ugly UDA/UFF initials, spoiling the green and intimidating players. Golf is intimidating enough with natural hazards without the introduction of paramilitary hazards!

  • George Gay

    Concerned Loyalist: “I can say, hand on heart, that I know no “evil” UDA men and I live in a loyalist estate.”

    There are no evil psychos either, only misunderstood ones.

  • Cormac

    CL: From Sunday Life “In the ranks of the “good” UDA there are people who have lifestyles made out of criminality – racketeering, extortion, robbing their own people and their own community.

    They live well as others live poorly.”

    …and you don’t consider this evil?

    Which UDA are were you referring to? The lot referred to in Sunday Life or the fluffy, cute, bastions of morality and doers of good deeds that you seem to imply exist?

    If they are so good and beloved by their community, why does no-one vote for them? Because they are a blight, a cancer, perhaps?

  • Oh yeah the good old UPRG representatives of the Loyalist Community that no-one f-ing well appointed. In the old days they used to hold their own community to ransom now they seem to have moved on to bigger targets and can bully whole goverments.

  • Cruimh

    Crazy world – the Maze is lying empty and these riff-raff are walking the streets.

  • marty (not ingram)

    CL
    By the way, are you all glad to see me back. I was on hiatus there for a few months. I decided to stop posting in protest at my treatment by some republican commentators (you know who you are). I was treated with utter contempt, disrespect and prejudice and if it happens again I’ll bid Slugger farewell for good…just so you know.

    Christ! Talk about an inflated sense of your on self-importance.

    Out of interest CL – at election time do you vote for the UPRG?

  • marty, do the UPRG even bother standing any more or do they save themselves entry fee and just assume they’re important.

  • marty (not ingram)

    Pounder – good point. I’d assumed they were running, however a quick look at the recent results suggests otherwise.

    Good of them to demand the golden goose without even putting themselves up for a vote.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    George Gay: “There are no evil psychos either, only misunderstood ones. ”

    Not even that, alas and alack… they’re *his* psychos and, given his text, can do no real wrong…

    Pounder: “Oh yeah the good old UPRG representatives of the Loyalist Community that no-one f-ing well appointed. In the old days they used to hold their own community to ransom now they seem to have moved on to bigger targets and can bully whole goverments. ”

    Which gives us the truth on disarmament — how can they maintain their control over their neighborhoods (an’ their drug turf, extortion rackets, etc.), let alone seek to bully the gov’t, without their guns? For all their rhetoric about transformation and “the need for confidence,” it boils down to hoods wanting one more bite at the apple and not being arrested for their criminal activities in the aftermath.

  • loftholdingswood

    I would not anticipate any UPRG spokesman standing for election as that is not their purpose. Nor do they claim to be representatives of the Loyalist Community that ‘no one f-ing well appointed’. They are normally senior ‘Loyalists’ who have undertaken to speak for a particular section of the Protestant Loyalist community and that is UDA members. They give ‘analysis’ to those that would listen to the analysis and prepare written reports and articles that stir up debate in an attempt to find a way forward.

    I have read the Economist article and to my mind it adds little to the debate and simply rehashes the same old tired stuff. Many journalists (and slugger types) enjoy the golfing jokes but in a sense it not only pokes fun at Jackie McDonald but at Mary and Martin McAleese and reduces any input that they have had to ridicule. I think that they deserve better and believe them to be genuine people as I know Jackie McDonald to be genuine. Genuine progressive types in Northern Ireland (do they even exist on Slugger? – the vitriol sometimes seems designed to keep things going as the middle classes love a battle that they can watch from a distance and comment on) should welcome any attempt to ‘normalise’ our society.

    The weekend attempts by the Alliance party ( being savaged by them is akin to my old granny scolding me for stealing a biscuit from the cookie jar) to call for the funding to cease will not produce the expected result. The success of the CTI scheme has already seen some remarkable results and long may it continue.

    Do you see all those people in the street when you walk by? Many of them live in working class areas and vote DUP/UUP (delete where appropriate) when the time comes. that is all they know. When they have a problem in their community who do they turn to? when they close their curtains at night and find out the next day that the ‘problem’ has been moved on do you think they pause at the moral conundrum that they have placed themselves in?

  • marty (not ingram)

    Lofty,
    I would not anticipate any UPRG spokesman standing for election as that is not their purpose.
    So they style themselves as community reps yet won’t put themselves forward for election? The only reason for that can be is that they know they don’t have the support on the ground as was evidenced with the electoral fortunes of the UPRG forerunners.

    Do you see all those people in the street when you walk by? Many of them live in working class areas and vote DUP/UUP (delete where appropriate) when the time comes. that is all they know. When they have a problem in their community who do they turn to? when they close their curtains at night and find out the next day that the ‘problem’ has been moved on do you think they pause at the moral conundrum that they have placed themselves in?

    Or alternatively do they think to themselves ‘why did I not vote for the people who provide “analysis” for the people I asked to remove my “problem” last night?’ Is it because the majority of them don’t use the “community service” you’ve talked-up above as most of the “problems” that need dealt with come from that same organisation?

    You put your argument forward that it’s the middle-class posters on Slugger that enjoy putting the boot into all this talk of CTI i.e. it enjoys huge support from the working classes. Again, I would put it to you that the votes for the “politcal reps” shows that there is no such working class support.

  • marty (not ingram)

    Also…
    The success of the CTI scheme has already seen some remarkable results and long may it continue.

    Can you quantify or qualify what these are? If you can it could advance your argument and people might think better.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    LHW: “They are normally senior ‘Loyalists’ who have undertaken to speak for a particular section of the Protestant Loyalist community and that is UDA members.”

    So, in normal-speak, the process is being held hostage by this group of UDA ventriloquist dummies, whose sole purpose is to put a polite face on the demands of a collection of armed thugs.

    LHW: “They give ‘analysis’ to those that would listen to the analysis and prepare written reports and articles that stir up debate in an attempt to find a way forward. ”

    In normal-speak, they provide spin and spin-control when the hoods get caught being hoods.

    LHW: “The success of the CTI scheme has already seen some remarkable results and long may it continue. ”

    And yet, when challenged, you cannot provide any sort of quanification of these results, nor any sort of reasonably accessible source where one may review them on their own. This inability to provide information (or even hard data) makes you sound like a carnival barker, huckstering away to provide good PR for a group of hoods who perform “demonstrations of strength” and issue thinly veiled threats of mayhem.

  • Sean

    I dont know Lofty might be right that cop with a hole in his back in Carickfergus must think its all pretty remarkable. Though the remarks probably shouldnt be said infront of his mom or his gran

  • cynic

    “So, we are treated to the spectacle of armed hoodlums continuing their extortion businesses under the pretense of defending NI, whilst listening to the repeated spin of a “good” UDA and a “bad” UDA, whilst “demostrations of strength” occur in the streets. Bravo. ”

    What? Just like what was done with the ‘ra for years while trying to bind them into a process?

    Goose…gander?

    That’s what happens when you do deals with terrorists!

  • Cynic, as much as I’m no friend to Sinn Fein and the IRA atleast they actually stand for elections before appointing themseves represtntatives for a community.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Pounder: “Cynic, as much as I’m no friend to Sinn Fein and the IRA atleast they actually stand for elections before appointing themseves represtntatives for a community. ”

    The stand for elections, they have, in the main, eschewed violence and have a political orientation. The Loyalists terror gangs, again, in the main, not so much. Throw in the fact that Cynic is, in hiw efforts at whataboutery, dredging up the past, as opposed to living in the present.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    No, it *implies* that he has two faces…

    A statement does “infer” anything. Statements imply, readers infer.

    Posted by Dread Cthulhu on Jul 30, 2007 @ 03:20 AM

    Why the need to nit-pick by point-scoring over me when you understood precisely what I meant. I gained an ‘A’ in English Language GCSE and a ‘B’ in English Literature A-Level so therefore don’t need English grammar lessons from you.

    If it helps you to sleep any better…
    Pete Baker IMPLIED Jackie has two faces which contradicts his links which INFER he has “stuck to his guns”, pardon the pun…

    Satisfied now Dread? I’m studying Journalism at uni next year so does that not INFER (to conclude from evidence or premises) that I must have a decent grasp of the Queen’s tongue?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    “Satisfied now Dread? I’m studying Journalism at uni next year so does that not INFER (to conclude from evidence or premises) that I must have a decent grasp of the Queen’s tongue?”

    Lol. I just INFERRED that I don’t have a decent grasp of the Queen’s language! I should have proof-read it before posting. It should read;

    “I’m studying Journalism at uni next year so does that not IMPLY (to indicate or suggest) that I must have a decent grasp of the Queen’s tongue?”

  • Concerned Loyalist

    And in the sentence before, “implied” and “inferred” should be the other way round. See what you’ve made me do “Dread…”, you’ve annoyed me to such an extent I’ve become infected with a very bad case of Foot-In-Mouth Disease…

  • Concerned Loyalist

    “Crazy world – the Maze is lying empty and these riff-raff are walking the streets.”

    Posted by Cruimh on Jul 30, 2007 @ 11:07 AM

    HMP Maze is in the process of demolition…or have you been sleeping the past year and are oblivious to the Hunger Strike Shrine being retained and the linked Norn Iron football team “Stadium Issue”?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Out of interest CL – at election time do you vote for the UPRG?

    Posted by marty (not ingram) on Jul 30, 2007 @ 01:13 PM

    The UPRG are not a political party and are not the political wing of the UDA. They provide political analysis and give advice to the UDA. Individual UPRG members have stood in Council Elections but do so as Independents…

  • Concerned Loyalist

    EXACTLY – that is the reality of working-class loyalist life in a nutshell. The working-class loyalist communities of Ulster may vote for the mainstream unionist parties come election time but when they have problems with anti-social and other unsavoury elements they are more likely to contact a respected local UDA member than their DUP councillor/MLA/MP…

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Concerned Loyalist: “Why the need to nit-pick by point-scoring over me when you understood precisely what I meant. I gained an ‘A’ in English Language GCSE and a ‘B’ in English Literature A-Level so therefore don’t need English grammar lessons from you. ”

    I corrected you since, in your construction, you were externalising — attempting to blame something for what you did yourself. Likewise, what you infer may not have been implied. Lastly, that particular misuse just raises my hackles, regardless of the race, creed, sexual orientation or political affliation of the (mis)user.

    Concerned Loyalist (original): “Satisfied now Dread? I’m studying Journalism at uni next year so does that not INFER (to conclude from evidence or premises) that I must have a decent grasp of the Queen’s tongue? ”

    Concerned Loyalist (as corrected): ““I’m studying Journalism at uni next year so does that not IMPLY (to indicate or suggest) that I must have a decent grasp of the Queen’s tongue?”

    You’ve at least shown you are willing to admit at least some of your errors and are, therefore, educable… it is a *far* better start than many I’ve worked with over the years, in academia and elsewhere. 😉

  • marty (not ingram)

    but when they have problems with anti-social and other unsavoury elements they are more likely to contact a respected local UDA member than their DUP councillor/MLA/MP…

    FFS, how many times? Why did they not vote for these “respected” people when they stood for election as the UDP? The PUP are hardly a political force either.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    marty (not ingram): “FFS, how many times? Why did they not vote for these “respected” people when they stood for election as the UDP? The PUP are hardly a political force either. ”

    There is an old chestnut about democracy — the people always get the government they deserve.

    I wish it was funnier, or at least pithier, but that might be it in a nutshell — they’re getting the government they deserve. If they are unwilling to either vote for political parties that will represent their interests or make a stand against the god-fathers of the street, then, whilst that may not be the government they want, it will certainly be the be the government they continue to receive.

  • loftholdingswood

    It is just the way it is marty (not ingram). I have long since given up attempting to reconcile the dichotomy.

    So what has CTI achieved to date I hear someone ask? In quantifiable terms I will have to wait for both the IMC report and any DSD report based on their findings. But, off the top of my head and according to reliable sources;

    A sustained and significant reduction in attributable assaults by the specified group.

    A complete cessation of ‘punishment’ shootings January – June 2007.

    A striking improvement in the reduction of paramilitary flags in all areas and, in some areas, no paramilitary flags in many towns. Agreements reached in many areas to reduce ‘ordinary’ flags and not place them in contentious spots/areas.

    Radical schemes taking place to reduce racist attacks/racist attitudes in Loyalist areas including a pioneering scheme that has seen an acceptance and willingness to learn from each other in one particular area and promote harmony.

    A start anyway. More is needed. To stop it now when it has only just begun to bear fruit is folly and petty in the extreme. Surely even the doom and gloom merchants want to see how far it can go and how much it can achieve before they subject it to the usual vilification?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Surely even the doom and gloom merchants want to see how far it can go and how much it can achieve before they subject it to the usual vilification?

    I don’t think you get what the bottom line is, lofty old chap. Your comment essentially amounts to something like a justification for praising a man who chooses not to rape his wife.

    Nobody had to give me a million quid in order for me to decide not to get involved in terrorist activity. The great fear among people is that you guys are trying to extort people and aren’t serious about permanently giving up violence – and what reason to they have to think otherwise ? I remember your old pals Johnny Adair and John White, any time they were interviewed, used to go on about the peace process and how great it was, and how they were committed to peace, all the while trying to build their own paramilitary empire.

    It’s damn clear why the UPRG don’t stand for election – they’d get wiped out, and their lack of popularity would be highlighted for the world to see. That is why the UDA disbanded the UDP.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    LHW: “So what has CTI achieved to date I hear someone ask? In quantifiable terms I will have to wait for both the IMC report and any DSD report based on their findings.”

    So, in other words, it exists to suppor the continued hang-wringing entries in the IMC about the UDA’s continued criminality, despite the professed desires of some in the leadership…

    LHW: “A sustained and significant reduction in attributable assaults by the specified group. ”

    A pity about those “shows of strength,” neh?

    LHW: “A complete cessation of ‘punishment’ shootings January – June 2007. ”

    But, ironically, not in the back-shooting of police…

    LHW: “A striking improvement in the reduction of paramilitary flags in all areas and, in some areas, no paramilitary flags in many towns. Agreements reached in many areas to reduce ‘ordinary’ flags and not place them in contentious spots/areas. ”

    Which would have been readily achievable without the UDA’s permission / cooperation if the local politicians and the police were worth their salaries.

    LHW: “Radical schemes taking place to reduce racist attacks/racist attitudes in Loyalist areas including a pioneering scheme that has seen an acceptance and willingness to learn from each other in one particular area and promote harmony. ”

    Ooooooooh… you mean their not going to be driving folks not like themselves out of neighborhoods for not being like themselves? What will they do for an encore, not celebrate the murder of children on their bonfires?

    LHW: “A start anyway. More is needed.”

    The big men need thier pay-off.

    LHW: “To stop it now when it has only just begun to bear fruit is folly and petty in the extreme.”

    To continue in light of their inability to handle their affairs without threatening to riot and shooting police, to continue to pour good money in after bad would be folly in the extreme.

    LHW: “Surely even the doom and gloom merchants want to see how far it can go and how much it can achieve before they subject it to the usual vilification? ”

    Only out of morbid curiousity of how long it will take the gov’t to realize the hoods are taking them for a ride, if at all. Face it, Lofty, you’re a muppet for hoods, meant to put a kinder, gentler and more reasonable face to the brutish reality of the UDA. All the spin in the world isn’t going to change the basic realities of the organization. They’re a collection of back-shooting, drug-dealing low-lifes. The Shoukri’s biggest sin was not being hoods, but being caught being hoods, with probably a side-order of not kicking enough squeeze to the bigger men in the organization.

    I loathe the notion of paying hoods to act like human beings. Better to not pay the “Hoodgeld” and be rid of the hoods.

  • Turgon

    There is something vaguely bemusing about Jackie McDonald being taken on golfing trips by the McAleeses’. It is just a rather surreal concept.

    I am interested, however in the fact that the UPRG does not stand in elections. I seem to remember the UDP standing and being totally destroyed in elections.

    It is true that there have been times (many times) when the UUP and DUP have failed to adequately help in solving the problems in working class loyalist / unionist communities. This is a charge that cannot be laid at the door of the UDA they have indeed been involved in many of the problems in these communities, centrally in causing a considerable number of them.

    I suppose we should welcome Concerned Loyalist starting a journalism degree, that will move him/her from being a cheerleader for criminals to what is by comparison a relatively respected profession. I wonder which news organisation will welcome such balanced and interesting views?

    Loftholdingswood seems to try to gain credit for the UDA for the fact that they seem to be committing less crimes than they did before and we should give them more money etc. to buy them off further. What is that quaint term “Dansegeld” or something like that? I prefer the term crime and blackmail but I guess it ammounts to the same thing.

    All of Loftholdingswood’s radical and positive developments seem to centre around obeying the law.

    “Surely even the doom and gloom merchants want to see how far it can go and how much it can achieve before they subject it to the usual vilification? ”

    In my case I would prefer my taxes to be spend on something useful like the NHS and schools etc.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Turgon: “Loftholdingswood seems to try to gain credit for the UDA for the fact that they seem to be committing less crimes than they did before and we should give them more money etc. to buy them off further. What is that quaint term “Dansegeld” or something like that? I prefer the term crime and blackmail but I guess it ammounts to the same thing. ”

    The term is “Danegeld,” being the monies paid in years past to Danish boat people to keep them from getting off the boats and generally looting the place, not unlike the extortionists of the UDA, only without the boats, so much.

    To quote the pertinent passages from Kipling…

    “It is always a temptation to a rich and lazy nation,
    To puff and look important and to say:—
    “Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.
    We will therefore pay you cash to go away.”

    And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
    But we’ve proved it again and again,
    That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
    You never get rid of the Dane. ”

    Reading further, one comes to the proper answer…

    “It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
    For fear they should succumb and go astray,
    So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
    You will find it better policy to say:—

    “We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
    No matter how trifling the cost;
    For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
    And the nation that plays it is lost!”

  • Turgon

    Dread Cthulhu,

    Thank you for that. I agree entirely. The only bit I might disagree with is “only without the boats, so much” Considering the ammount of money the UDA seem to want they could probably buy several Sunseeker type power boats.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    I always hated the fable in the Bible about “Doubting Thomas” but it is one I may have to quote from in the not so distant future, to rub a few peoples’ noses in it who have been commenting here…

  • Turgon

    Yes concerned loyalist if the government give your mates loads of money they might stop being criminals. I wish the government would give me loads of money to obey the law. Sadly I seem to have to work for a living.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Always the cynic “Turgon”…

  • Dread Cthulhu

    CL: “I always hated the fable in the Bible about “Doubting Thomas” but it is one I may have to quote from in the not so distant future, to rub a few peoples’ noses in it who have been commenting here… ”

    I put little truck in promises of bright, shiny things down the road. The UDA sound too much like Pop-eye’s portly little friend, promising peace tomorrow in exchange for Danegeld today.

    I also care little about what they say, paying attention to what they do. They talk a great game, yet these riots and “shows of strength” seem far more like a mobster flexing his muscle than acts of legitimate political protest — let’s face it, back-shooting police doesn’t look good, no matter how hard some may try to spin.