A military success

Andrew McCann celebrates the success of Operation Banner this morning. When looking about for some information, I came across this website, which looks interesting.

  • Lets also light a candle for the many innocent men, women and children slaughtered by the British Army in the past 30 years. Every single British Soldier who was deployed (in excess of the 1969 levels) has now been returned out of Ireland and back to where they belong…

  • Michael Shilliday

    Nothing for the six times more people the IRA murdered?

  • Michael,

    So it’s just a head count then is it? You can freely excuse cold-blooded murder committed by a state-santioned Army, on the basis that the ‘other side’ killed more…?

  • oilibhear Chromaill

    Michael, you obviously don’t read very well. MacSwiney did say ‘also’ which must include, by definition, Andrew’s ‘contribution’.

    I note that the bould Andrew has his ‘comments at off’ – so he obviously doesn’t want to enter into debate about the fruitfulness or otherwise of the British Army role in the north.

    Let it be pointed out, however, that such was the British Army contribution to the north that the soldiers who were sent here to defend ‘British’ citizens ended up being targeted, engaged and defeated by British citizens. Now they’re confined to barracks…. that’s a victory. Sure thing.

  • Michael Shilliday

    http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/troubles_stats.html

    Interesting little graph on that page that shows that the IRA murdered about twice as many civilians as the British army killed in total.

  • Michael Shilliday

    All murder is wrong. But people like me find it sickening that republicans jump and down about some mistakes made by a legitimate army, when their dirty campaign was many times more deadly than anyone else’s. In fact republicans murdered more republicans than every other group in the troubles combined.

  • Michael,

    Clearly you have therefore answered my previous question. You clearly DO excuse the murders committed by The British Army and morality and ethics are lost among your many graphs and statistics. (Along with all of the innocent lives that they took…).

  • Michael Shilliday

    I excuse no murder. Neither do I ignore the facts, which show that republicans murdered 2000 people.

  • marty (not ingram)

    Michael,
    Nothing for the six times more people the IRA murdered?

    Careful now – otherwise Bob McGowan will be along with his cold list of statistics.

  • Cuchulainn

    dont know what everyone is aruging about,

    Murder is Murder,simple fact of life!

    British Army killed many innocent people, bloody sunday being an example

    IRA killed thousands of innocent men women and children, 11 innocent protestent workers in Armagh being an example.

    its true the Army should never have been in this country anyway, but also true the IRA should never have existed, they got st andrews, and told us a united ireland was closert than ever? funny it was very similer to Sunningdale, so it took more than 3000 deaths to take it closer?

  • Here we go again

    Worst thread ever.

  • ^Dude I totally heard that in the Comic Book Guys voice.

    On topic, any murder is wrong no mater who the killer and killed where. I don’t usually operate in terms of black and white but murder is one of the few areas where I do. The sad thing is that each side in this conflict seem to take a perverse pleasure in claiming to be the most victimised. One death is one death too many.

  • overhere

    Oh what a surprise a “whataboutary moment” Michael as a contributor I thought you would know better !!

  • I don’t want to get into a ‘whataboutery’ debate, but I think it is playing with the figures a little bit to ignore the role the British Army played in using Loyalists as surrogates. There is enough evidence of collusion at this stage that all but the most blinkered would accept that at some level, some activities of Loyalist paramilitaries were controlled or supported by the British Army.

    We can agree or disagree as to how high up the corruption went, or how many people died as a result. But I think it’s foolish to ignore the point that the British Army didn’t need to be as aggressive as it could have been when it had surrogates to act in that capacity.

  • Cuchulainn

    we also cant ignore the fact that along with birtish intelligence, the birish army and the IRA carried out a lot of of murders. including its own members!

    fact is each side murdered a lot of people using both the army and birtish intelligence, doesnt matter how high up it went, the fact is it happened!

    murder is murder, plain and simple, black and white!

  • BogExile

    Operation Banner was a success:

    The Army contained and then reversed the spread of militant republican terrorism.

    By the time of the first IRA ceasefire, republican terrorists were reduced to scuttling about the hedgerows in the back roads of South Armagh. They were infiltrated, compromised and vastly reduced in their ability to operate outside relatively small republican strongholds.

    The Army presence enabled civil society to continue and in doing so to reform itself and remove most of the causes which republicans used to justify murdering other irishmen who happened to have a political perspective different to theirs.

    Miltant republicanism could not win. I believe OP Banner in the end helped create the psychological shift necessary to wean republicans away from their physical force fantasy and confront the reality which is now enshrined within the constitutional settlement of GFA where Sinn Fein accepts that Northern Ireland will remain part of the united Kingdom until its inhabitants wish otherwise.

    That’s the science!

  • Sean

    GFA also enshrines the republicans right to leave the UK so the IRA won as well

  • BogExile

    Yes, Sean, I believe that there are good functioning rail and road links to the Republic whenever you feel like it dear boy 🙂

    (You simply must be from ‘across the pond’)

  • I Wonder

    Michael:

    If you excuse no murder, do you regard the Army as having “murdered” i.e., wrongfuly killed, anyone in NI or the south?

    Those who frequent the site which you quote do not regard it as possible for the British Army to do any wrong at all, let alone “wrongfully kill.”

  • John

    The troubles have left a legacy of pointless suffering for all the people of NI. It will take another generation before the people involved in inflicting that suffering has pass-away and a new generation takes NI forward.

    The present Republican and Unionist politics has change beyond recognition in the last 30 years, but they still represent the suffering of the past.

    In a generations time we will not have a Republican or Unionist party, instead we will have true political parties, which represent the needs of the people.

  • Sean

    LOL touch a little too close to the bone there exile

    You have enshrined into law the republicans right of northern Irelad to cede itself from the union. Suck it up and get on with life

  • CTN

    Sean- maybe the dopey double of McGuinness/Adams have not told you or perhaps you were faking your laughter too loud to hear that you are currently under british rule with a unionist veto named the principle of consent.

    Demographics dictate this veto will last for about 40 years.

    Only overthrowing the dopey double can stop republicanism under achieving.

    Unfortunately a couple more electoral disasters down south are necessary for this to take place.

    Although in fairness there is an outside chance the brits might redeem their two favourite paddies by introducing the Irish Language Act over unionists heads.

    Republicanism is not defeated but is certainly stymied for the foreseeable future while these two ganches are at its helm….

  • Gareth

    Sean

    I think you’ll find that the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973 (and even the Ireland Act 1949, in terms of parliamentary consent) enshrined the right of NI to leave the UK if the majority so desired. There was even a border poll in March 1973.

  • lib2016

    There’s an interesting reference above to the fact that the British inspired security industry here is being run down just at the moment when the ‘anti-terrorist’ industry abroad is recruiting.

    Some details, such as the fact that the RIR is now headquartered in Britain are common knowledge but has anyone done any work on just how many jobs have moved to Britain and elsewhere?

    This is going to have an interesting effect on the demographics of NI considering that the security sector was overwhelmingly staffed by members of the unionist community.

  • mnob

    on the success or otherwise of the presence of the army (which includes Irish citizens btw – north & south) I would ask the detractors what they thought would have happened had they not been deployed and what they would propose as an alternative ?

  • observer

    its sickening to hear the republican hypocrites on this board, anyone who murdered should be brought before teh courts , that includes IRA McGuinness who, as IRA commander, murdered god knows how many men, women and children.

    Many of those killed by the BRITS deserved it, there werent all INNOCENTS no matter what the IRA loving scum on this board might say.

    THe only problme is the Brits didnt kill enough of the terrorists and their supporters

  • I Wonder

    The Nationalist population welcomed the arrival of the Army intially precisely because they saw their presence as a benign and extremely powerful symbol that Stormont’s authority had been eclipsed.

    Had the logical corollary of sending in the troops (suspension of Stormont) happened, Operation Banner would have been a fairly short term phenomenon. Wilson thought that the troops could hold the line until Stormont reformed itself. Instead the hand of Unionism was seen in the increasing physicality of the Army, (Ballymurphy: Easter ’70, Falls Curfew: June ’70, internment: Aug. ’71, etc) culminating, of course, in Bloody Sunday (Jan ’72) after which the long-delayed decision to prorogue HAD to be taken, 24 months too late….

  • CTN

    There is nothing of note in GFA/St Andrews for republicans to celebrate.

    The implementation of the ILA would claw back some of the ground lost in this war of attrition.

    However they would still be well below their bare minimum for a 40 year campaign.

    How could Adams possibly believe he would win middle class votes down south with so many of his party workers headin for the door and the assests recovery agencies nailing his so many of his buddies- not much of a visionary.

    His failure to pin down the ILA at St Andrews shows how out of his depth he is- he could have held out until after the elections down south and stopped the hemorrhage of party workers leaving on both St Andrews and PSNI acceptance as opposed to this lemming like rush in to electoral retreat.

    These are typical of the blunders he made which advanced the British army’s project.

    Freedom, Justic, and Peace republicans will be a long time waiting….

  • Cruimh

    Question for the republicans here – The first people the Army killed here after their deloyment were rioting loyalists who were fighting in nationalist areas.

    Do you think the army should be condemned for those killings ?

  • BogExile

    ‘…This is going to have an interesting effect on the demographics of NI’

    Yup – no doubt about it, you win the clutching at straws award for this particular thread.

  • lib2016

    mnob,

    The Lynch government called in the UN for an international force to be sent in but with Britain’s standing in the world at that time they had no real hope of success.

    Clearly the British Army can never again be deployed in nationalist areas so a deal for European troops should be in everybody’s interest if the whole thing starts off again, something which is extremely unlikely.

  • Sean

    CTN
    There is no unionist veto on ceseion only on the day to day business of storomont. Of course there is also a republican veto on the same thing

  • Sean

    cesesion

  • lib2016

    BogExile

    Google ‘160,000 RUC’ and go down to the BBC link. Ronnie Flanagan was complaining that the Patten report could affect 160,000 people if you included 16,000 of his men and their dependents, or, as Ronnie put it ‘ten per cent of the NI population’.

    Seems like a lot of straws to me!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    observer: “its sickening to hear the republican hypocrites on this board, anyone who murdered should be brought before teh courts , that includes IRA McGuinness who, as IRA commander, murdered god knows how many men, women and children.

    AND…

    observer: “Many of those killed by the BRITS deserved it, there werent all INNOCENTS no matter what the IRA loving scum on this board might say. ”

    Please reconcile these two statements in light of the fact that the law, barring self-defense, makes no allowance for whether or not the victim needed or deserved killing. If you want the moral high ground, you will need a little more consistency in your views. Simply handing a man a gun and a uniform does not absolve an individual of murder, anymore than giving him a beret and a manifesto.

  • peter

    I hear the republican chant, “Ireland for the Irish”, but what happens if those British in the mainland start chanting, “Britain for the British?”

  • Norn chick

    The subject of this thread is a notorious, mouthfrothing, sectarian looper (those are my diluted comments, believe me!).His name should not even be mentioned in any serious political blog.

  • Cruimh

    From the Balcony is hot and heavy on this !

    “the venemous Black Watch midgets ”

    http://apublishersblog.blogspot.com/

  • confused

    Republicans in the guise of IRA did indeed kill many innocent people but their crimes extend beyond this because they put to death the noble aims of Republicanism as understood by many people across the world.
    In truth they were nothing more than sectarian with a racial hatred of all things British and Protestant.
    As a political philosophy Republicanism has been dragged through the mire and succeeding Irish generation will be slow to forgive.

  • John East Belfast

    So it looks like Andrew McCann is now the latest Anti Agreement unionist to catch onto what Trimble et al were about during the last ten years.

  • George Gay

    Confused. You make a good point. The British and Unionists are obviously happy with the deal and the heavy price paid for it. But why should Republicans be?
    Forget the tit for tat and whataboutery. That can be done about all struggles such as the Second World War. The lie of the land is that PIRA now have their snouts in the Unionist trough. To the lie that the revolution continues, that is just a marketing ploy similar to The Gap or Burberry. The Adams wing hijacked Republicanism the same way Dev did in 1923/27. No difference, just despair.

  • CTN

    Sean- “There is no unionist veto on ceseion only”-

    Really- welcome to the new UK.

    The big doc used to want Stormont back without a fenian about the place now- he has it back as FM with the “fenians” put to sleep- zzzzz

  • hib

    George- “Adams wing hijacked Republicanism the same way Dev did”

    Difference is Dev had a bit of grey matter and built a party- all empty head Adams can do is destroy his, particularly in Dublin- were they had most potential and are now most vulnerable!

  • mnob

    lib – an interesting proposition, but and its a big but – you would still have a foreign force, a military one at that, who would be deployed to keep law and order and support the maintenance of NI in the UK so I’m not sure that the outcome would have been any different.

  • kensei

    “Sean- maybe the dopey double of McGuinness/Adams have not told you or perhaps you were faking your laughter too loud to hear that you are currently under british rule with a unionist veto named the principle of consent.”

    Actually, they aren’t the same thing. Unionist veto = majority of unionists required for change. Principle of consent = majority of six counties population required for change.

  • Dublin 4

    Let it be pointed out, however, that such was the British Army contribution to the north that the soldiers who were sent here to defend ‘British’ citizens ended up being targeted, engaged and defeated by British citizens. Now they’re confined to barracks…. that’s a victory. Sure thing.

    You really do talk out of your rear end Mr Chromaill.

    Stormont – A UK devolved administration
    PSNI – A UK police service
    Union Flag – Flies on designated days over Parliament Buildings.
    British Army – Garrison levels of 5,000 – Still present in Northern Ireland and will remain so.

    PIRA weaponry – DECOMMISSIONED

    Victory? Wise up.

    Please also enlighten us on the terror the PIRA visited upon the ‘citizens’ of areas they purportedly controlled which you seem to omit.

    Please enlighten us on the silent approval of the Irish administration for having the British Army on the Border and thwarting attacks planned by ‘loyalist’ terrorists on the citizens of the Republic and safeguarding our security and democracy by the threat from the vermon (IRA) that both the British and Irish administration defeated.

    And really Mr Chromaill if this was war in Northern Ireland the full might of the British war machine would have ended it all long ago.

  • Oilibhear Chromaill

    Please enlighten us on the silent approval of the Irish administration for having the British Army on the Border and thwarting attacks planned by ‘loyalist’ terrorists on the citizens of the Republic and safeguarding our security and democracy by the threat from the vermon (IRA) that both the British and Irish administration defeated.

    I’m not sure what rear end you’re talking out of, but if it’s in Dublin 4 it must be pretty sore if this is what you’re coming up with.
    What attacks on the Free State did the British Army thwart, thanks to the silent approval of the Irish administration? The Dublin Monaghan bombings perhaps….? the greatest atrocity of the WAR on a civilian population.
    Your spelling is also a bit off – it’s VERMIN. The British and Irish Administrations didn’t defeat anybody or else why do you think they would be sharing power with the defeated enemy in Stormont….like, get real!

    Stormont – A UK devolved administration with an all Ireland dimension, cross border bodies etc.
    PSNI – A UK police service administered partially by SF, the defeated enemy?
    Union Flag – Flies on designated days over Parliament Buildings. On designated days only – ie it needs special permission – contrast that with the situation on the ‘mainland’ when they fly all year around. From 365 to 17 – that’s what I call a start.
    British Army – Garrison levels of 5,000 – Still present in Northern Ireland and will remain so. Confined to barracks, out of sight, out of mind, except when they’re being flown out to Iraq, where it’s also not a WAR situation…..

    You’ve given me the biggest laugh of the day, Dublin 4, you thick gobshite.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Confused: “In truth they were nothing more than sectarian with a racial hatred of all things British and Protestant. ”

    Not to be a stickler for detail, but when did either “British” or “Protestant” become a race?

  • al

    “GFA also enshrines the republicans right to leave the UK so the IRA won as well

    Posted by Sean on Jul 30, 2007 @ 03:06 PM”

    Oh really. Does it? Well considering they’d leave in an instant and apparently have this right, why have they not done so already Sean…?

  • Dublin 4

    Chromaill clearly you and your cronies in the provos have lost when you resort to insults.

    Regardless of the all-island dimension it is still a UK devolved administration and the NSMC or any cross border workings needs unionist agreement for any form of work to progress.

    The Police Service of Northern Ireland regardless of your 3 irrelevant representatives, who had no choice but to agree to sit on the Policing Board. The Shinners tried to get it all their own way but failed as they did in what you pathetically say was a war.

    The Union Flag may only fly for 17 designated days but it still flies and it’s always been 17 days.

    In regards to the murderous bombings in Monaghan and Dublin, the loyalist terrorists had luck on their side, but in the south we moved on. Unlike your shallow self who like the rest of the VERMIN you support are clutching at straws and trying to tell anybody who still listens to you that you ‘won the war’

    Interesting that you did’nt take me to task on the might of the British War Machine, because you and I know that the likes of west Belfast etc would have been reduced to ashes.

    Now go away and sulk with the rest of Gerry and the boys you imbecile.

  • Doctor Who

    Dread

    “Not to be a stickler for detail, but when did either “British” or “Protestant” become a race?”

    A bit pedantic even for you Dread, perhaps if the poster had left out the word racial, would it make a difference.

  • Turgon

    Oilibhear Chromaill,
    “The Dublin Monaghan bombings perhaps….? the greatest atrocity of the WAR on a civilian population.”

    Indeed the Dublin and Monaghan bombings were an appaling atrocity and to be condemned by all reasonable people. I trust you would use that same word “atrocity” when describing Kingsmill, Enniskillen, the Rising sun, Teeban, Loughlinisland etc.

  • I Wonder

    Turgon:

    Is there any suggestion that, in citing any given act of murder, that the person citing it would NOT regard instances of murder by other parties as equally reprehensible?

    I note that, yet again, a Unionist commentator has been unable to give a view on whether the British Army ever murdered anyone.

  • BogExile

    ‘…whether the British Army ever murdered anyone.’

    Easy: Soldiers in the British Army did commit acts of murder for which they should have but not always did receive commeasurate punishment.

    Difficult: Set in the context of a ruthless and morally void terrorist campaign which included ethinic cleansing, chaining human beings to van bombs, justice by power tool and no-warning bomb atrocities, it is quite extraordinary what restraint was displayed. One can just imagine the innocent casualty figures if, for example, the US Army were responsible for Banner.

  • Gréagóir O’ Franclín

    “Kill a man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill everyone, and you are a god.” – Jean Rostand

  • There is no act of murder I do not condemn. What’s your position?

  • BogExile

    Olib: How about if we inject a full stop into your last post. Does this now accord with the Republican analysis of it’s armed ‘struggle.’?

    6. There is no act of murder. I do not condemn.

    🙂

  • Cruimh

    “There is no act of murder I do not condemn. ”

    Do you count killing RUC men as murder OC?

    Thinking of this :

    http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/detail/20018

    Was the killing of those 3 RUC men murder ?

  • CTN

    Ken – “Actually, they aren’t the same thing. Unionist veto = majority of unionists required for change. Principle of consent = majority of six counties population required for change”.

    As the 6 co’s majority is clearly unionist this will be a guaranteed unionist veto for at least 40 years- as I explained earlier…

  • Oilibhear Chromaill

    Bog Exile and Cnuimh: It’s simple. I condemn all acts of murder, including the murder of RUC officers, British soldiers, UDR/RIR, UVF, UFF, UDA.
    My condemnation is the same for the killers of Billy Wright as it is for the killers of ordinary civilians.
    And, Bog Exile, I think my statement was clear enough without your rather crude punctuation. That says more about you than it does about me.

  • Oilibhear Chromaill

    I just don’t have the time to ‘take you on’ on every stupid remark you make, Dublin 4. LIfe is too short. The British Army had its war machine in West Belfast for 38 years – and it’s the one going home with its tail between its legs. It’s long record in west Belfast is punctuated by the murders of children and women, unarmed civilians, an occasional member of the IRA. It never earned the respect of the people it was supposed to protect and it’s departure has been marked by a sigh of relief rather than the usual ‘victory’ parade.

    As for the Dublin/Monaghan bombing, it would serve you well to remember that the British Army, your beloved British Army, are suspected of involvment in this atrocity. It wasn’t just luck that the UVF had on their side.

    I have no interest in cat calling with you. You’re obviously a gobshite and an ignorant and illiterate one at that. I never said the IRA won the war – I’m glad the war is over. I made the contribution I did to counter the spurious claims of Andrew McCann, the apologist for British state terror and murder. He’s a Yorkshire man born and bred and his stance is perhaps understandable – you’re a Dubliner, you claim, so what’s your excuse for condoning the murder of your fellow citizens as a ‘lucky’?

  • Cruimh

    “I condemn all acts of murder, including the murder of RUC officers, British soldiers, UDR/RIR, UVF, UFF, UDA. ”

    Thank you OC.

  • BogExile

    ‘The British Army had its war machine in West Belfast for 38 years – and it’s the one going home with its tail between its legs. ‘

    It’s odd this. Yet another manifestation of abnormal republican psychology. I suppose you have to seize what crumbs of comfort you can. They aren’t going home. They are home, in barracks like any other part of the United Kingdom in peacetime. They patently have not got their tails between their legs. They are leaving after a job well done – principally that was helping the police hold the line in civil society until militant republican extremism was supplanted by democracy.

    I can completely understand your desire to see reality through a fairly warped pair of green spectacles. You must be wondering what the hell was it all worth.

    All the crazily strident agit-prop in the world won’t change the basic fact that Northern Ireland is now and will remain part of the United Kingdom, and will function like any other part of the United Kingdom without the need for soldiers to support the police.

  • oilibhear Chromaill

    All the crazily strident agit-prop in the world won’t change the basic fact that Northern Ireland is now and will remain part of the United Kingdom, and will function like any other part of the United Kingdom without the need for soldiers to support the police.

    You really are a howl, Bog Exile….

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Dr. Who: “A bit pedantic even for you Dread, perhaps if the poster had left out the word racial, would it make a difference. ”

    Words mean things, usually fairly specific things.

    Additionally, hating someone solely for their race is wholly unreasonable. Hating someone for their beliefs is only slightly less unreasonable — races, unlike the group-thinks of religion and nationality, do not have inherent beliefs to act upon, nor unreasoning dogma. So, yes, Dr. Who, the absence of that word would make a difference.

  • BogExile

    You really are a howl, Bog Exile….

    Thanks Oilib, you seem to bring out the best in me 🙂