‘Good’ UDA “will stand with their members if they are under threat”..

It may have been the prospect of the next IMC report containing a separate chapter entitled “South East Antrim UDA”.. or a misguided attempt to convince the actual political representatives that they are dealing with criminality.. if not decommissioning.. or just the latest outworkings of an internal power struggle.. but there have been more omnious rumblings from that ‘good’ UDA – who look at Jackie McDonald for its de facto leadership. Whatever the reasoning, via Brain Rowan in the Belfast Telegraph comes news that the ‘mainstream’ UDA have “[appointed] an interim leadership, including a brigadier and brigade staff [in South East Antrim].” And there’s another [not so] veiled threat..

The “interim leadership” is a kind of rallying call, and a move by the inner council to bring as many members in south east Antrim back into the mainstream organisation. A source close to the organisation’s leadership said the wish was to achieve this without violence, but warned the inner council “will stand with their members if they are under threat”.

According to the report

A statement from the mainstream UDA leadership read:

“After months of consultation with members of south east Antrim, a decision has been made to appoint an interim leadership, including a brigadier and brigade staff.

“As a result of this decision the south east Antrim brigade have asked the council to expel the commander in charge of Carrickfergus and Larne from the organisation.

“The UDA, in support of the interim brigade staff, call on all south east Antrim members to support this new brigade as we continue the fight to stop our communities being destroyed by crime, criminality and drug dealers.”

Hmm.. Perhaps the police could just talk to “those who have influence..”

, ,

  • Glensman

    Yay! We’re getting a new improved UDA brigade!

  • parcifal

    lol Glensman, I don’t think they’ve any idea just how embarrasing they are. The IRA must be rolling in isles with laughter.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Ah, the dulcet rumblngs of the hoods, the sweet music of percussive chest thumping, the overture before the purge…

  • Dev

    Does anyone take these clowns seriously anymore?!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Dev: “Does anyone take these clowns seriously anymore?! ”

    So long as the mug(gers) are armed, they have to at least get a modicum of respect… which is likely the main reason they’re so keen on delaying disarmament — how else can they run their extortion rackets without their arms?

  • francesco

    how pathetic

  • The Dubliner

    Given that the PSNI know who each of the loyalist murderers, pimps, and drug-peddlers are, perhaps a selective form of ‘internment’ (with safeguards) would be the most expedient way of getting them off the streets. Why waste time with this scum?

  • Comrade Stalin

    You’d laugh at these stupid wankers playing toy soldiers if it all weren’t true. It’s time the Assets Recovery Agency lit a fire under their arses.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    The Dubliner: “Given that the PSNI know who each of the loyalist murderers, pimps, and drug-peddlers are, perhaps a selective form of ‘internment’ (with safeguards) would be the most expedient way of getting them off the streets. Why waste time with this scum? ”

    Because “internment,” or even “interment lite” gives them too much recognition.

    Better they be treated like plain vanilla criminals.

  • rayban

    Where is Loftholdingswood when you need him? Hopefully not in the Canary Islands buying up all the cheap Ciggies…

  • Cruimh

    “Given that the PSNI know who each of the loyalist murderers, pimps, and drug-peddlers are, perhaps a selective form of ‘internment’ (with safeguards) would be the most expedient way of getting them off the streets. Why waste time with this scum? ”

    Amen to that The Dubliner – or at the very least any out on license should be returned to jail pending decommissioning.

  • Turgon

    Dread Cthulhu,
    I have no issue with your post and sadly it is true. The only bit I would disagree with is “respect”. Its is more likely to be power and fear.

    I also suspect even without firearms these people would be quite effective gangsters. As you say we need them treated as criminals. Unfortunatley as we know here and in all coutries getting evidence to lock these sort of people up is difficult, not that that is an argument for internment.

    Cruimh,
    I agree about license but as we all know it is really difficult to prove etc.

  • loftholdingswood

    “Where is Loftholdingswood when you need him? Hopefully not in the Canary Islands buying up all the cheap Ciggies…”

    No holidays for me I’m afraid, can’t afford one!.

    The statement speaks for itself really. Better a verbal pre-emptive strike than a physical one surely? I hate the term ‘mainstream’ but it seems to have entered the vocabulary recently when discussing the UDA. The vast majority of all UDA members want to move this whole process forward through the Conflict Transformation Initiative (CTI). I applaud all the efforts undertaken during the lead up to the 11th and 12th of July to make it the quietest period in a very long time and put this down to both the efforts of CTI workers and community leaders and also community leaders on the respective other side. And yet we find little mention of this in the aftermath of the holiday period, just a retreading of the current internal dispute that will end shortly (without recourse to violence).

    Hope everyone has had a nice holiday period.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Turgon: “I have no issue with your post and sadly it is true. The only bit I would disagree with is “respect”. Its is more likely to be power and fear.”

    Perhaps “respect” is an awkward word — I respect the UDA the same way I respect a rattlesnake or scorpion — loathsome creatures best given a wide berth whenever possible.

    Turgon: “I also suspect even without firearms these people would be quite effective gangsters.”

    Probably, but perhaps the advantage in armament would be what it would take to give the police the courage to do their jobs and arrest these hoods.

    Turgon: “As you say we need them treated as criminals. Unfortunatley as we know here and in all coutries getting evidence to lock these sort of people up is difficult, not that that is an argument for internment.”

    All that is really needed is a willingness to pressure the component parts. The Mafia in the US was nearly untouchable… right up until the US government made it a priority. Admittedly, the Mafia helped on a couple fronts — fraticidal conflicts, drug dealing and a few public follies. The UDA would appear to be slouching down the same path.

    Ultimately, the PSNI / Prosecution Service need individuals with sufficient courage and will to handle the dirty work of breaking down and dismantling these organizations. The US never resorted to internment to deal with the Mafia.

  • Fitzy

    i would give my left nut for a charismatic WORKING CLASS representative for the so-called protestant/loyalist/unionist community. now that there is no IRA to fight, an established government in the north, and an agreement on the place of the six counties as part of the UK, this community needs leadership that will worry about their living conditions, crime, health system, education etc. etc… Loyalist thugs that once ‘protected’ their community, religious zealots that demonize sections of our community, and rich unionist parties that wouldn’t be caught dead in our ghettos if it weren’t for a vote, should be cast aside. The vacuum created by the absence of such leadership is what allows the UDA etc. to continue to exist. They are from the same community and were at one time, for right or wrong, accepted as a political voice. They are no longer relavent and should be dealt with as such by their community and the police.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    LHW: “Better a verbal pre-emptive strike than a physical one surely?”

    Ah, the prodigial apologist returns, putting a smiling face upon a thuggish threat.

    LHW: “The vast majority of all UDA members want to move this whole process forward through the Conflict Transformation Initiative (CTI).”

    Still looking to belly up to the public trough, eh?

    LHW: “And yet we find little mention of this in the aftermath of the holiday period, just a retreading of the current internal dispute that will end shortly (without recourse to violence). ”

    If that is truly your belief, why would they bother with the threat, LHW? If they haven’t the will to back their words with deeds, it’s just empty noise — better to have said nothing that a bluff they’re unwilling to fill.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Fitzy

    Great comments and straight to the point, if only more Unionists(I’m assuming here) could be so open. What about yourself for the job?

    >>No holidays for me I’m afraid, can’t afford one!.<

  • Cruimh

    “I agree about license but as we all know it is really difficult to prove etc. ”

    Nothing needs to be proven – license can be revoked.

  • loftholdingswood

    “Ah, the prodigial apologist returns, putting a smiling face upon a thuggish threat.”

    This has been dealt with before. I am not an apologist because I support every policy and action that the UDA is currently undertaking. And you spelt prodigal incorrectly.

    Prince,

    Don’t even own a house, it’s the good old working class Housing Executive gaff for me.

  • Pete Baker

    I think it would probably be a good idea to post a reminder of A C Grayling’s previously noted guide to civil argument

    In debates that crucially affect the wellbeing of the world, ideas and beliefs should be open to tough challenge and hard discussion. Let someone state a view, and let the view be subjected to rigorous scrutiny, no holds barred, and no pleas of offence, hurt feelings, self-proclaimed sensitivities, “sacredness” or any other excuse allowed to stand in the way. But with a strictly governed exception, namely, an office-holder speaking ex-officio, let no individual be the target of attack, and even then neither abuse nor ad hominem attack.

    There is no excuse for ill manners and insults, though of course there is an explanation: usually, the impotence and weakness of the insulter and his or her case. Insult an idea or an institution, by all means, if you have serious grounds to do so; but not individuals: that is the bottom line.

  • Turgon

    Dread Cthulhu,
    This is disturbing but I agree entriely. I am sure I can attack you on something soon.

    Prince Eoghan,
    I tried to flee to your shores but the intolerant are not welcome and so I am back planning the move to Devenish.
    Actually I agree entirely with Fitzy except remember that some of the DUP and UUP are quite good at representing working class interests (not perfect but a site better than the PUP as evidenced by the PUP’s one seat). I always feel that the Prod working class are treated pretty badly by all sides especially the middle class Prods. I know I am an unlikely supporter and I do not want to be seen as condescending but I still remember being shocked and depressed by a report that many boys on the Shankill regarded the height of ambition to become a paramilitary. Sorry if that is hand wringing!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    LHW: “This has been dealt with before. I am not an apologist because I support every policy and action that the UDA is currently undertaking. And you spelt prodigal incorrectly. ”

    Egads — a typo! Horrors!! Shock and dismay!!

    The UDA is a collection of unreconstructed drug-dealing, money extorting sectarian hoods, full stop. All your spin and happy words does not change any of the above. Now, the allegedly “good” (read “bad”) UDA has issued a threat against the “bad” (read “worse”) UDA. Strangely enough, their threat is, in the main, in the form of an extortionate threat — do what we want, or risk the consequences. I guess old habits die hard for some… Your “isn’t it better that they’re verbally threatening” makes mockery of the notion that Northern Ireland is part of the civilized world — in most places, such words from band of hoods to another band of hoods would be recognized for what it was, a run-of-the-mill threat.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Turgon: “This is disturbing but I agree entriely. I am sure I can attack you on something soon. ”

    Don’t rush on my account… 🙂

    Turgon: “I know I am an unlikely supporter and I do not want to be seen as condescending but I still remember being shocked and depressed by a report that many boys on the Shankill regarded the height of ambition to become a paramilitary.”

    It’s not and you’ve nothing to apologize for… Sadly, wanting to be a gangster is not unique to Northern Ireland.

  • Fitzy

    Turgon –
    A couple of points….
    the number of seats you have doesn’t = the quality of representation.

    the dup and uup are opportunists. they have certainly been vocal on hun v taig issues, as that’s their bread and butter for winning support… us v them.

    when was the last time you saw the dup or uup AS A PARTY stand up and say – no, shout!-… our hospitals are shite, crime rates are far too high, crime is far too high because the programs and opportunities for educational and occupational advancement are shite.

  • Turgon

    Fitzy,
    Very fair point.
    I was sad that Iris Robinson who seemed to know something about health and may actually have cared (yes that is probably naive) did not get health. The one time I asked a politician about health was Paul Berry and it may not suprise you that even though he was on the health committee he seemed to have little clue (that does say more about him than the DUP in fairness). I think a thread on the number of hospitals and or trusts etc would be quite interesting.

    I also have concerns about schooling. I am no expert but I fear the 11+ seems to benefit the middle classes and disproportionally harms the Prod working class. I do not pretend to know the answer and I agree there is little sign our polticians do either.

  • Fitzy

    to be honest turgon… i’m not terribly worried about who has the answers. its more a question of who demands that the real problems be noted and addressed with the appropriate priority and haste.

  • parcifal

    peteb, this thread is pretty well behaved as threads go, so far.. I think you’ll find a nudge is as good as a wink to a blind donkey..

    As to thread, these UDA guys need treatment, its a medical psychotic problem as much as its anti-social/criminal/gangsterism

    Underneath the hard-man bollocks, they’re a bunch of mammy’s boys.
    The trick is to tap into that..gain their trust, and its case solved.. gimme another one 🙂

    “We only wanted to be loved” .. Public Image ltd

    cya

  • parcifal

    If that fails surround the estates and play Barry Manilow, loud and long and hand out hankies….
    start with ” I made it throught the rain ”

    oops the men in white coats are coming.
    You’re not allowed to speak of love in the twittering dark and foreboding world of norn iron.

  • Turgon

    Parcifal,
    I am not having a go but please do not use terms like psychotic about the UDA and all the other criminals. Only a tiny minority of people with psychosis are dangerous. They very rarely have complex plans like the Yorkshire Ripper.

    There may be some people in the UDA etc. who are psychopathic. Actually that term is very unpopular with psychiatrists; anti social personality disorder is better. Such people are aware of their actions and responsible for them. They may be clever or stupid but are not psychotic, hence the unpopularity of the term.

    Sorry if this is either arcane or insulting but I think we too easily label people who are bad as mad.

  • patrique

    Slow learners I can appreciate, but how slow is slow. The protestant working class suffered more than anyone throughout the history of Stormont, 1920-1972.The most disheartening thing to hear, and unfortunately some people still say it, was the old protestant working class “We had nothing as well, but we weren’t out causing trouble”. You should have been.For years we were ruled by a landed gentry/mill owner class in a society which was predominately working class. What do you think “sectarianism” was all about? It was about making money. The only thing that has changed with this class of ruler is that there is more money to be made in a bought peace process.

  • parcifal

    very interesting turgon, in truth most who suffer from mental illness are a danger to themselves, not others.

    Its a deep subject alright. Am looking at it the other way too, ie we too often label mad as bad.

    These guys are definately doing bad stuff, but as they were caught up in a conflict, it makes me want to search a little harder for answers.

  • Otto

    The UDA, just like the IRA are scum and it`s a shame the SAS didn`t kill even more of them. If I had run the place during the troubles I would have authorized the RUC and UDR and the Briish Army to kill on sight any known members of these terrorist scumbag organisations

  • DK

    Before our amateur doctors get too excited, maybe we should remember that the UDA, like the IRA, are a product of the conflict. However, while the latter have been able to move successfully into politics, the UDA are stuck without representation, but with all the old structures still in place.

    There is no post-conflict role for the UDA and so the power of the organisation is focussing on crime. At least the IRA can be focussed on helping a large political party and the members move into political and community posts. Such community posts as exist on the loyalist side are scorned and ridiculed on all sides, from the nationalists who simply hate the UDA to the unionist politicians who see them as a threat.

    In this context, the efforts of the UUP to join forces with the PUP may have been positive; but it was electoral suicide and never had the depth or permanence of the IRA-Sinn Fein pact.

    In short, there is little positive for the UDA to attach itself to, since politics has now passed them by. They are a loose cannon, and it is hard to see what can possibly tie them down other than the gradual passage of time.

  • Glensman

    That’s helpful Otto,

    Are you forgetting that a lot of the SAS are scum? Shoot on sight isn’t really a useful form of ‘justice’ is it?

    I expect to read a thread by you in the near future going on about Peace and Justice this and criminality that…

  • Comrade Stalin

    The most disheartening thing to hear, and unfortunately some people still say it, was the old protestant working class “We had nothing as well, but we weren’t out causing trouble”. You should have been.

    Please can we put this rubbish to bed. People get the politicians they elect, and if they are too stupid to elect people who do not serve their interests then that is a problem they need to fix. If the Protestant working class sat on the sidelines and never did anything, then who is sustaining the UDA and UVF ? People should stop denying that these organizations have a great deal of sympathy, if not direct support, in the areas where they are strong.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Again Fitzy fair play to you! As Turgon rightly points out the Unionist working class are the ones who have been shat on from a great height by their so-called betters *barf* I am pleased that Loyalists that I speak with in Glasgow are now very open about how people were used and then conveniently dumped like hot totties.

    Trouble is how do you turn around a collective mindset repeatedly put in fear for generations. Over the last 7 years many of us have had the fear of God put in us by Islamic terrorists. I am not proud to say that my knee-jerk reaction has been at times to want to hit the bastards back. Hundreds of years of this kind of fear instilled into ordinary Unionists would I imagine may be difficult to counter even in the medium term.

    >>Prince Eoghan,
    I tried to flee to your shores but the intolerant are not welcome and so I am back planning the move to Devenish.<

  • labourman

    Fitzy ? Turgon et al,

    The answer is on its way for all our communities – Labour politics, without the nationalist baggage.

  • parcifal

    DK
    you put your finger on it, a better diagnosis would be that SF never hid the fact that they morphed from the IRA
    Unionist hypocracy dictated that there was somehow some difference between themselves and loyalists. There isn’t, hence the problem of what to do with the UDA.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    DK: “However, while the latter have been able to move successfully into politics, the UDA are stuck without representation, but with all the old structures still in place. ”

    Defending the status quo requires no real political savvy or manifesto. With all due respect of LHW, “Loyalist politics” is pretty much an oxymoron — non-existant in the beginning and an afterthought now. Seem the hard-men were more interested in drugs and the rackets to look to the future. Even their current “political activism” would seem more about prolonging their armed status (the better to menace you, my dears…) and extorting a “retirement” for the hardmen than the well-being of the state.

  • Blue Hammer

    “Given that the PSNI know who each of the loyalist murderers, pimps, and drug-peddlers are, perhaps a selective form of ‘internment’ (with safeguards) would be the most expedient way of getting them off the streets. Why waste time with this scum? “

    I find it almost funny that those who are so supportive of internment for those involved in UDA activity would go apoplectic if reciprocal action was taken against, say, “dissident Republicans (read: Provos straying off-message).

    Sure intern the OO and all its coat-trailers as well, then all the prods will leave you to your Oirish Utopia.

  • Blue Hammer

    “Are you forgetting that a lot of the SAS are scum?”

    Yup. That one passed me right by.

    The SAS were the only armed group who on balance did precious little harm and an awful lot of good. As a previous poster said, had they been given free hand in the 70s/80s, I suspect we would have quite a different ministerial team at Stormont today, and the country would be so much better for that.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Blue Hammer: “I find it almost funny that those who are so supportive of internment for those involved in UDA activity would go apoplectic if reciprocal action was taken against, say, “dissident Republicans.”

    Not at all — let the arsonists and left-behinds of both communities — the ones who still seem to think that torching stores and dealing drugs have a place in N.I.,be arrested, tried and, if found guilty, imprisoned.

  • Fitzy

    labourman…. i hope it’s human politics without any baggage.

  • patrique

    Are the entire Stalin family stupid? Being conned for fifty years before the UDA was invented surely cannot be linked to supporting the UDA.Being conned on the old “at least youse are better than Catholics” propaganda spouted by the ruling classes,much like the “poor white trash” in Southern States of USA were conned, has absolutely nothing to do with the UDA, UVF, or any paramilitary organisation.

  • allybo

    I hope the RSPCA is launching an urgent operation to get all of the chihuahuas out of SE Antrim.

    Similarly Lily Savage is spiriting out all drag-artist combatants in the next few days.

  • lib2016

    The UDA were and are messenger boys for unionism. That’s why they were legal right through the 80’s and up to 1992 and why they were supplied with intelligence by the security services and ‘political guidance’ from the unionist parties, especially the UUP.

    The funniest thing about this thread is the pretence that unionism was ever about anything more than keeping the croppies in their place.

    Fair do’s to some elements in the DUP who have realised that they need new tactics before the old tactics destroy their community completely. Pity it’s too late but then they are conservative parties after all.

  • The Dubliner

    “I find it almost funny that those who are so supportive of internment for those involved in UDA activity would go apoplectic if reciprocal action was taken against, say, “dissident Republicans (read: Provos straying off-message).” – Blue Hammer

    That’s a very poor counter-argument that relies on your skill as a fairground mindreader.

    “Sure intern the OO and all its coat-trailers as well, then all the prods will leave you to your Oirish Utopia.” – Blue Hammer

    Steady now… you’re sliding down that slippery slope.

  • Turgon

    Lib 2016,
    On this thread you just said “The funniest thing about this thread is the pretence that unionism was ever about anything more than keeping the croppies in their place.”

    On the Londonderry orange hall thread you said “I can’t say that I’ve never been guilty of prejudice. What I can and do claim is that I try to avoid it. ”

    Does it not enter your head that these two statements are completely contradictory. You seem to be only interested in bashing and insulting everything unionists believe in and hold dear. You can hold these views if you wish but please do not try to delude yourself let alone the rest of us that you are trying to avoid prejudice. Try to have a little intelluctual honesty, you are predjudiced and are clinging to your predjudice with great affection and success.

  • lib2016

    Turgon,

    I dispise ‘Ulster’ unionism i.e. unionism since 1870 because it is founded on the concept of perpetuating Protestant supremacy and obstructing the inevitable rise of Irish democracy. I hope that is simple enough for you to understand.

    Martin Luther King was not a racist because he opposed the racism of his political foes. To oppose unionism is the duty of all those who oppose b1gotry.

  • Turgon

    Lib2016,
    Twisting semantics and a pretty poor attempt at that. You have already had to qualify the word unionism. You have also said “The Orange Order had a purpose once but that purpose no longer exists”. I am not an orangeman but it also has a religious and cultural function as well as a political one. Also of course it was set up a long time before 1870. You are prejudiced against unionists, unionism and everything we hold to. In the past you have even said “I identify you (referring to me) as Irish as does the rest of the world”, rejecting even my right to define my own nationality.

    Trying to ally yourself with Martin Luther King is quite pathetic as is your attempt to claim the moral high ground as someone rejecting prejudice. I do not mind you being prejudiced, you have that right but have the maturity to accept what you are; extremely prejudiced.

    I do find it amusing though that prejudice like yous will help ensure that even if some of these mythical persuadable Prods do exist they will be turned off any united Ireland before during and after 2016. By 2016 you may even have grown up enough and achieved sufficient self insight to understand your own prejudice.

  • patrique

    The Governments learnt something from the troubles, namely do not create martyrs. Internment and Bloody Sunday gave the IRA enough members and recruiting material to last for years.

    In the carefully planned peace process, dissidents are now isolated, or made to look incredibly stupid, and quite often they do that themselves (Holy Cross et al)

    Dangerous dissidents, Wright, Adair, Fulton, Stone and such were all discredited, murdered, or jailed.The smarter ones were allowed to become gangster/community leaders.

    The UDA have nowhere to go except into perfectly acceptable crime, as long as they are not into “politics”. By perfectly accep[table I mean as long as they keep to their own working class areas. Sure nobody cares what happens there.Well, I might, and you might, but nobody in power does.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    patrique: “Dangerous dissidents, Wright, Adair, Fulton, Stone and such were all discredited, murdered, or jailed.The smarter ones were allowed to become gangster/community leaders. ”

    Suggesting that the gov’t might not be all that bright as well.

    patrique: “The UDA have nowhere to go except into perfectly acceptable crime, as long as they are not into “politics”. By perfectly accep[table I mean as long as they keep to their own working class areas. Sure nobody cares what happens there.Well, I might, and you might, but nobody in power does. ”

    Ah, but that is not what they’re doing, at least if one acknowledges the pretensions of UPRG. In one last irony, the UDA would like the state to pick up the tab for the damage cause by… well, the UDA.

  • Sean

    The UDA, just like the IRA are scum and it`s a shame the SAS didn`t kill even more of them. If I had run the place during the troubles I would have authorized the RUC and UDR and the Briish Army to kill on sight any known members of these terrorist scumbag organisations

    Posted by Otto on Jul 18, 2007 @ 05:14 AM

    Well Otto the problem with that plan is that their barracks would have been knee deep in gore as they shot each other as recognized terrorists

  • Prince Eoghan

    Well said Sean!

    I for one am getting fed up with the way the terrorist tag is bandied about willy-nilly specifying the IRA on slugger. We don’t just need to rely on the recent revelations of collusion, or the upcoming shoot-to-kill whitewash (not another fucking whitewash!) We know that in the terrorism stakes the IRA were amateurs compared to the various arms of the British establishment.