Rossnowlagh parade

The main parade for Orange lodges in the Republic of Ireland will take place in Rossnowlagh today. They will be joined by brethren from Northern Ireland and England. Meanwhile, there was an arson attack on a South Armagh Orange Hall (link updated) with the Lodge flags and banner destroyed as well as the hall damaged. The number of attacks and amount of damage on halls has been increasing in recent years..

  • Dewi

    FD – How many Orange Halls are there North and South and are women allowed to join ?

  • fair_deal

    Dewi

    AFAIK there are over 800 halls. Yes there is a women’s organisation.

  • Sean Graham

    Another good reason for Frazer and the BNP to march through Keady. Keep your eyes peeled Fair Deal. The Ku Klax Klan needs all the help it can get.

  • Dewi
  • fair_deal

    “And Mohawks ????”

    Certainly

  • Cromwell

    Sean,

    Are you on the glue?

  • Dan

    http://www.ladlass.com/intel/archives/006991.html
    -The future’s bright for Donegal’s Orangemen-

    “The Donegal County Grand Master, David Mahon, is proud of his traditions.”

    “He is proud of his Donegal roots but baulks when asked if he considers himself Irish. “I don’t think in those terms,” he replies, adding quickly that he has an Irish passport.”

  • Rory

    Is it not more likely that these fires at Orange Halls are the result of the imprudent practice of
    indoor bonefire rehearsals on wet evenings?

  • joeCanuck

    Not funny Rory.
    Attacks like these are despicable.

  • There’s something really quite surreal about an individual being asked his nationality and replying with,

    ” I dont think in those terms”.

    I have seen many weird and wonderful quotes on Slugger over the years, but that is quite possibly the strangest…

  • joeCanuck

    I don’t find it strange at all macswiney.
    We’re not all hung up over nationality.
    “Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel”.
    Incidentally, Capt. Terence O’Neill, interviewed on the BBC after his resignation (ouster) was asked what nationality he felt he was. His reply was that he didn’t know.

  • Sean Graham

    When aonegasl yob insists on marching around with an old fashioned bowler hat and a sperm stained sheet to commorate some 300 year old crap that defines his neuroses, it is pertinent to ask the monkey his nationality.

  • Cromwell

    Again Sean,

    Are you on the glue or not?

  • parcifal

    Cromwell what part of sean’s argument is the sticking point for you?

  • kev

    If only the order would march in empty, wind beaten areas all the time.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ‘If only the order would march in empty, wind beaten areas all the time.’

    Nutts Corner perhaps? Appropriate name too.

  • Ginfizz

    Lovely examples of Nationalist toleration and mutual respect on here. Clearly the only accepatable for of hate-speech for some commentators is speech directed at Ulster Protestants. Keep it up boys – with rants like this you confirm just why I don’t want a United Ireland.

  • Turgon

    Ginfizz,

    I agree entirely.

    macswiney,
    You reject being British (as is your right) but find it unacceptable for this man to avoid a direct answer to an analogus question. He may reject being Irish but be too polite to annoy people about it (or too scared) or not regard it as important. Why does this so offend you? You seem to have a difficulty with diversity. Do you insist that Chinese people brought up here identify as British/Irish/Chinese? Would it be unacceptable for them to answer that they do not think in those terms?

    If you ever got your united Ireland will you find it unacceptable for me to not self identify as Irish?

  • lib2016

    Ginnfizz,

    After all that’s happened you still think the OO is synonymous with ‘Ulster Protestants’. You don’t get out much, do you?

    Just try any Spanish beach at this time of year to hear what the majority of your community think of your antics.

  • lib2016

    Turgon,

    By rejecting their Irishness and describing a neighbouring off-shore island as the mainland a whole generation of Irish unionists have driven their best and brightest abroad.

    Far from being ‘unacceptable’ it provides a solution, however unpalatable, to a urgent social problem – what to do with a whole community left behind by history.

    Most Irish republicans would prefer to see their unionist neighbours live in the real world but if they refuse to do so then it is a selfinflicted wound. Don’t blame republicans because the British Empire and your identity have vanished.

  • Turgon

    lib2016
    “Most Irish republicans would prefer to see their unionist neighbours live in the real world “. No lib for most of my life considerable numbers of Irish republicans seem to have preferred to see their neighbours die and indeed participtated in that.

    My identity has little to do with the British Empire. Unfortunately you seem to describe your identity by opposing this empire which to quote Bob Dylan “Has returned into the sand”. Its end is of no concern to me.

    Oh yes I forgot I am a planter, part of the empire. Do you want to come round and take possession of my land?

  • lib2016

    “Has returned into the sand”

    I don’t suppose even Dylan saw the madness of Britain waging an illegal and immoral war against Iraqi men,women and children but British blood is indeed running into the desert sands again….together with lots of other innocent blood as usual.

    Turgon,

    I identify you as Irish as does the rest of the world. Don’t pretend that your denial of what is selfevidently true is my fault. If you want to indulge your delusions don’t involve me.

  • hib

    Turg – in all fairness though Britain employed divide, conquer, ethnic cleanse and plantation measures it doesn’t mean other people will choose those tactics.

    I know that unionists will claim otherwise south of the border and around Fermanagh were UDR families moved out after their bread winner was killed by the provos but contemporary and impartial opinion differs and republicans are political rather than racial bigots…

  • Turgon

    Lib2016.

    And if I dont agree with you what will you do. Traditionally the options seemed to be chase me out or murder me (and my family). You are not really making Irishness attractive are you? Unsuprising why that Donegal orange order man did not immediately describe himself as Irish.

    I identify you as a cheerleader and apologist for murderers. Please do disprove me.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ‘After all that’s happened you still think the OO is synonymous with ‘Ulster Protestants’. You don’t get out much, do you?’

    For once I have to agree with lib2116. I’m a Unionist but the OO is little more than an embaressment.
    I enjoy a marching band as much as the next guy but I fail to see why the public highway has to be the place for it.
    Certainly march along a beach or an old airfield or even round a stadium, but keep off the streets.
    No matter what the area is.

    As for the OO themselves, their complete lack of public savvy has been breathtaking, whether it’s been Dawson Bailie ‘condoning’ all acts of violence or the complete refusal to engage with local residents even with power-sharing in full swing.

    There are many many thousands of Unionists who are determined to remain UK citizens, but have no interest whatsoever in the antics of the OO, and you don’t need to search a Spanish beach to find them either.

  • lib2016

    Turgon,

    You think that you identify me but instead you identify yourself. This is not the language of peace.

    In fact I come from a family which has been ‘constitutional Nationalist’ at least as far back as 1798. I abhor all violence and believe that their obsession with it will destroy the unionist community in the relatively short term.

    The Provvies were always a very small group. It was only when Sinn Fein embraced the peace Process that they attracted widespead support.

    Unionism created the conditions which led to the Provvies, now the UUP are locked into a position which has destroyed themselves rather than their nationalist enemy.

    The DUP will either continue to change or they will become irrelevent. That’s the way life is.

  • hib

    C’mon Turg when has been the last sectarian assault in Donegal – 1922.

    Maybe an odd orange hall got burned out by some hoods on their hols but thats about it.

    Gerry a very interesting point you raised was that many unionists have no interest in the OO- I knew apolitical prods wanted nothing to do with unionism or orangism but did not know many prods who declare themselves unionists thought the OO somewhat bizarre.

  • hib

    C’mon Turg when has been the last sectarian assault in Donegal – 1922.
    Maybe an orange hall got burned out by some hoods on their hols but thats about it.

    Gerry a very interesting point you raised was that many unionists have no interest in the OO- I knew apolitical prods wanted nothing to do with unionism or orangism but did not know many prods who declare themselves unionists thought the OO somewhat “bizarre”.

  • Turgon

    lib2016
    “You think that you identify me but instead you identify yourself”
    No lib the first to do the identifying was you identifying me as Irish. “I identify you as Irish as does the rest of the world” You have not accepted my right to identify myself as British.

    By the way wherever I have travelled in the world (not that many places in fairness) no one has made me identify as Irish they seem quite happy to identify me as British.

    I genuinely welcome your rejection of all forms of violence. From that position I am quite happy to have a civilised debate with you regarding all manner of things. I do not agree with your analysis but since you reject violence I entirely accept its validity (if not its correctness).

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ‘I knew apolitical prods wanted nothing to do with unionism or orangism but did not know many prods who declare themselves unionists thought the OO somewhat “bizarre”.’

    That’s Slugger for ya Hib — a constant learning process.
    Contrary to some republican mindsets, most Unionists have zero interest in marching, flag waving or getting full and singing the billy boys. Compare the OO membership with the DUP / UUP vote and you’ll find a huge discrepancy.
    I last went to ‘the field’ in 1981 and was bored shitless.

    For me and many many others, Unionism isn’t about bigotry — it’s about nationality, economics, culture and the desire to identify with the UK rather than Ireland.

    Regarding your knowledge of prods, whilst I’m aware of many prods who don’t vote for various reasons, I’m not aware of any who would vote for a UI in a border poll.

  • parcifal

    Gerry I know one who has declared her hand for a UI. So we’re getting there 😉

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Good stuff Parcifal. Now if you can just get her to counterbalance the Roman Catholics who would vote for the union (I know four of those), things will really get interesting.

  • parcifal

    well Gerry, as Wellington said of Napoleon
    “His hat is worth 50,000 men” I’d say the same about this cute lil gal. Think Joan of Arc 🙂

  • Dewi

    How was the parade anyone know ? Lovely day for it !!

  • hib

    Gerry – agree with ya bout slug.

    Regarding the unionist view I think maybe a few mother earth types in north Down would be pro UI if the provies haven’t put them of but I think thats about it.

  • sandhouse

    ‘If only the order would march in empty, wind beaten areas all the time.’

    And Rossnowlagh is one shit hole of a place, one run down hotel, a couple of caravan parks and lots of sand dunes.

    I wonder would the orange order be interested in buying the place and then they could have all 3 thousand parades in the one place.

    Then again, there would be no one to offend but the sheep.

  • ulster scot

    Sandhouse – agree Rossnowlagh is a shit hole.It has always amazed me that in the land were green and orange live in happy harmony as examplified by the tricolour the orange tradition are relegated to celebrating their culture and right to be different on a windswept beach.It really says it all about toleration in an ireland of equals.
    Basically prods and orangies are ok as long as they stay invisable,keep their heads down and allow the Gaelic true bloods to pretend everyone is free and equal.

    Rossnowlagh in many ways is the reality of why those silly brainwashed prods dn,t want antthing to do with the dream of an ireland of equals – we have already seen it in operation.

  • Expat No More

    “I knew apolitical prods wanted nothing to do with unionism or orangism but did not know many prods who declare themselves unionists thought the OO somewhat bizarre.”
    Been away from N.I. since 1970 but noticed this site and this comment. Thinking of the hundreds of mostly apolitical (though instinctively unionist) “prods” in the extended family and their church communities, I do not know of a single Orangeman in the bunch. I do remember my grandmother commenting in the 60s that no decent (dascent?) folk would be running after Orangemen on the 12th. (Said in a strong Braid Ulster-Scots dialect) Even the few relatives in the mysterious “Masons” were emphatic that they had never been in “the Orange”. Interesting to see what has changed here but also the continuing misunderstandings.

  • Always Gurning About Something

    “Ulster Scot”,

    Right, so the parade takes place unimpeded, unhindered and with the full support and assistance of the local police… and you STILL aren’t happy?

    **sheesh**

  • páid

    Ulster Scot has a point.

    The Irish tricolour is one-third orange.

    Orange as was.

    Orange as is.

    Not orange as you would like it to be.

  • kensei

    “If you ever got your united Ireland will you find it unacceptable for me to not self identify as Irish?”

    No, but I would also feel you should be comfortable enough to answer the question 😉

    lib – as entertaining as you can be sometimes (particularly when you are going on about the prospects for a United Ireland, I really wish it was that close), trying to define someone’s else identity is just being an ass.

  • Harry Flashman

    **I identify you as Irish as does the rest of the world.**

    Really you feel you can speak for the other six billion people on the planet do you?

    I have travelled throughout Asia, Europe, parts of Africa, the United States, Latin America and the Caribbean and in all those places my nationality is accepted on my terms.

    I have two passports, Irish and British (handy if you do alot of travelling, and no, contrary to another myth, I do not get greeted with scowls when I show my UK passport as opposed to the heartwarming grins when I bring out the Irish one) and whichever I present is accepted as my nationality, no questions asked. No one ever said to me “But. . .but. . .you cannot be British because it says in your passport you were born in the occupied six counties of old Erin”

    “The rest of the world” is not defined as certain Irish affiliated bars in London, Glasgow, New York or Tenerife.

    Stop deluding yourself mate.

  • Dan

    In other marching news…The Andytown News is claiming:

    “Loyalist bandsmen taking part in last weekend’s controversial Springfield parade carried a banner commemorating a convicted UVF killer.
    As they marched through the Mackies Complex onto the Springfield Road, bandsmen lifted high a standard honouring Noel Kinner.
    The Shankill loyalist, who died of a heart attack in 1996, was part of a UVF gang that murdered Catholic father-of-three, Brendan McLaughlin in February 1980.”

    Andytown news

    Photo here:
    http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/images/2007/07/05/whiterock.jpg

    Not the most impartial sources though.

  • CK City

    notice how there is no trouble at Rossnowlagh as this in the first world whereas …. .

  • frank

    dan

    The Noel Kinner flute band are regulars at orange parades and have been given the ‘honour’ of leading the district on the 12th.

    The North Belfast district seem quite close to the terrorist band.

    http://www.noelkinnersoufb.co.uk/brian.htm

  • sunny south east

    If the oo are serious in not wanting a united ireland please could they me a favour in not marching in the south we have enough fascist rhetoric in the state. By marching here unionism may be defeating its raison d’etre. No free p in monaghan the green state is very happy without you

  • lib2016

    kensei, flashman and others.

    My point was that people born and bred on the island of Ireland are universally recognised as Irish. That fact is not changed by their denial of it as the great American writer James Baldwin found when he rejected his American identity to live in Paris and become a citizen of the world.

    He found that he became simply an American exile.

    Like many an Irishman I rejected my nationality in the bad old days of holy Catholic Ireland so his conclusion was of more than passing interest to me since I was living on the Left Bank at the time of reading about it and going through much the same identity crisis.

    The ‘British-Irish’, Scots-Irish, Unionists, Loyalists, British Protestants or whatever other identities they adopt won’t remove the Irish Sea. They may qualify it how they will and have whatever political arguments they like with their fellow countrymen. Some things don’t change. Sorry.

  • Dr Strangelove

    Turgon – “Unsuprising why that Donegal orange order man did not immediately describe himself as Irish.”

    Maybe he was more concerned about the reaction from his Northern brethren about him describing himself as Irish ?

  • steven

    At last this issue has been raised. The media seem to ignore the fact that the attacks on Orange Halls are increasing.

    Even SF now condem attacks on these building by their own kind.

  • Dev

    don’t find it strange at all macswiney.
    We’re not all hung up over nationality.
    “Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel”.
    Incidentally, Capt. Terence O’Neill, interviewed on the BBC after his resignation (ouster) was asked what nationality he felt he was. His reply was that he didn’t know.

    Posted by joeCanuck on Jul 07, 2007 @ 11:35 AM

    I have to agree with this, I’m from a nationalist/republican background but I don’t necessarily always find it easy to describe myself as ‘Irish’ like those folks south of the border, nor would I consider myself British in the sense that an Englishman is, and all the phrase ‘ulsterman’ brings to mind is OO types. It is a confusing question, and most of the time I would givew the same answer as O’neill.

  • No Dozer

    Wouldn’t it be a sad world if everyone thought/was the same. Why on earth can republicans not accept that the unionist people/tribe or whatever you want to call us are different. Yes we were born on the island of Ireland but we call ourselves Northern Irish and yes, British. Like the Donegal orangemen we give our allegiance to the Queen. You might not like us or do not want us but that is who we are. We share an Island and desire to share it in peace. Decent unionist wish the bigots who come from our community would go away and stop emmbarassing us. We don’t want or need them. Republicans should wise up and remember that they have caused a lot of hurt and stop pretending that their “war” was just and honourable. It wasn’t.
    They murdered,in cold blood, many decent protestant/unionists for a united Ireland and expect us to forget about it and embrace them and their ideals. It would certainly help us to move on if they made an effort to accept that their muder campaign was wrong. Loyalist should also admit that they were wrong and stop acting as if they were soldiers who fought a just “war”.