Fly the flag in the face of terror (except in Northern Ireland)…

THE Sun is urging the Great British Public to follow the new Prime Minister’s call to fly the Union flag on every government building by waving their own as “the gesture would help create a new sense of Britishness. And send a message to extremists that the nation will not be beaten”. Of course, Gordo’s appeal to the patriotic doesn’t include her majesty’s most loyal subjects in Norn Iron, who have a little more experience of extremism than most – but legally restricted to flying said flag to a handful of days a year. Paisley Junior is perturbed, while – somewhat ironically – the unionist News Letter identifies the cynicism in Brown wrapping himself in the flag. Brown seems to be trying to follow America after the 9/11 attacks, when the Stars and Stripes were displayed absolutely everywhere, to promote unity in the face of terror. I happened to be Stateside just after the attacks and thought it was a tad OTT then, and I still do… Sunny Hundal offers his considered response to Brown’s stunt over at comment is free.

  • marty (not ingram)

    And send a message to extremists that the nation will not be beaten”

    Indeed. I can imagine that if I was mad enough to want kill a nightclub full of people then a few flags blowing in the wind would be just the thing to make me change my mind.

    Typical guff from the Sun. You have to wonder who reads and believes such bull?

  • PeaceandJustice

    In Northern Ireland, would flying the flag in the face of terror involve waving it in the faces of Sinn Fein IRA ministers in the NI Assembly?!

  • heck

    THE Sun is urging the Great British Public to follow the new Prime Minister’s call to fly the Union flag on every government building by waving their own as “the gesture would help create a new sense of Britishness.

    gonzo–you are assuming the sun considers Nor Iron Unionists as part of “the Great British Public”

    The extreme britishness of unionists comes from their insecurity. Like a man with a small penis I think the scotish Gordon (like unionists) is trying to compensate for the fact that he is not english and maybe not truely british.

  • for a large number of people in NI the union jack flag IS symbolic of state sponsered terror.

    (lest you forget – in the 1960’s it was the BSpecials terrorism, 70’s UDR/Glennane gang & the Dub-Monaghan bombings, 80’s shoot to kill, Finucane murder, 90’s Rosemary Nelson murder, 2000’s Mark Haddock killings)

  • irish Republican in America

    As an American who lived in DC on/after 9/11, I never want to go back to the silly uber-patriotic stuff we had on 9/12 and beyond. So overdone it was ridiculous.

  • Aislingeach

    Sigh…another top-down attempt to create something that by rights is grassroots. Most of the people I know who raised the flag in the American heartland after 9/11 did so spontaneously; it was our personal response to feeling attacked.
    When it became an “official” response, it lost much of its meaning and lapsed into what my compatriot above calls “silly uber-patriotic stuff”.

  • Peace and Justice,

    I’ve got news for you if you think that’s it just Sinn Fein ministers who would be disinterested in flying the union flag. Earlier this week I was travelling through East Belfast (Newtownards Road, Woodstock Road etc…) and came upon street after street that was deserted of either the union flag or Ulster flag. Twenty years ago there would’nt have been a single house in those areas without something flying the week before the 12th…

    So before you starting creating a ridiculous argument about why Nationalists would’nt want to fly the union flag, maybe you should ask yourself why more and more Unionists in working class areas are’nt flying it anymore either…?

  • Gréagóir O’ Fránclin

    All this flag waving, especially when you have flags attached to lamposts, chimney stacks, pylons, etc.. infact almost any vertical structure, bar a flagpole somewhat demeans the importance of the flag especially when it becomes weathered and ragged as well as making the place somewhat tawdry. And that goes for any flag!

  • abucs

    Aislingeach,

    could you expand on why you think the American public were less enthusiastic when the flying of the flag became a top-down direcive ?

    Thanks.

  • Oranges for Sale

    macswiney

    “Earlier this week I was travelling through and East Belfast came upon street after street that was deserted of either the union flag or Ulster flag”

    … and as macswiney awoke he rubbed his eyes and said to himself ‘what a lovely dream’, then after a big yawn, he rolled over and drifted peacefully back to the land of nod.

  • John Bull

    The Sun: “We’re all proud to fly the flag”*

    *Please note: offer excludes NI

  • Frank Sinistra

    It was something I noticed in the Greater Lisburn area too. Most main roads covered in flags sometimes two or three to a lamp post if you include the skull and crossbones.

    Next to no flags displayed on private residential homes, only a few on display in large housing estates like Ballymacash.

    The individual display of flags seems to be diminishing and even some of the roads in more affluent areas like the Antrim Road (Lisburn) have none on the lamp posts.

    People must be realising that house values are affected by going nuts with the bunting.

  • Frank Sinistra

    Maybe thefear caused by the intimidation to put one up during the mad days of the Drumcree protest has worn off and ordinary people are just going back to being ordinary without fear of the bully boys reactions?

  • Metacom

    Aislingeach can speak for herself abucs, as for me the first thing I did when I got home that terrible day was put out the flag. Many of my neighbors did the same. It was completely spontaneous and a way to show solidarity in the face of the murderous attack we had been subjected to. Once it became a contest to see who could put up the biggest, the highest or the most it lost a little of its meaning. Later in some peoples eyes it started to signify unquestioning support for the current administration’s at best incompetent efforts at a response and some people got uncomfortable with sending that message.

  • Liam

    Limavady is covered in flags, every lampost in a mile radius from my house and down in the main street. It is such an eye-sore and they are never taken down until about August or September when they are grey and ragged and even uglier. Half of them are totally irrelevant too, we have Canadian flags and NI football flags and even Texas and Confederation flags. I wish they would just ban them on public property once and for all.

  • Wilde Rover

    The flag of the European Union should be flying on all government buildings across the union to show (reserved, judgment pending on the new PM of one of the stars on the blue flag) solidarity in the union for the preservation of the fragile rights and responsibilities of the free.

  • merrie

    I agree with flying the EU flag as a statement of solidarity.

    Note it does not have a star for each of the member states, only a maximum – 12 I think. It was limited for some reason.

  • Fraggle

    The worst extremist attack in recent days would be the north belfast attack by a gang of loyalists on a catholic child. I can’t imagine that flying more union jacks would send any sort of useful message to those particular attackers.

  • Dev

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eu_flag

    “The number of stars on the flag is fixed at 12 and is not related to the number of member states of the EU since it is originally the flag of the Council of Europe and does not have a relation with the EU. In 1953, the Council of Europe had 15 members; it was proposed that the future flag should have one star for each member, and would not change based on future members. West Germany objected to this as one of the members was the disputed area of Saarland, and to have its own star would imply sovereignty for the region. On this basis, France also objected to fourteen stars, as this would imply the absorption of Saarland into Germany. Myth has it that the Italian representative then objected that thirteen was an unlucky number, as well as the fact that early flags of the United States featured that number of stars. Twelve was eventually adopted as a number with no political connotations and as a symbol of perfection and completeness because of the ubiquity of the number for groups in European cultures and traditions such as:

    12 hours on a clock
    12 months in a year
    12 symbols of the zodiac
    12 Apostles
    12 Caesars chronicled by Suetonius
    12 Olympian gods
    12 tables of Roman Law
    The number has led to a number of assertions that there is further meaning in the Circle of stars, for example its similarity to the twelve-star halo of the Virgin Mary seen in Roman Catholic art. Most non-partisan authorities on the subject disregard such theories as myth. However, flag designer Arsène Heitz has acknowledged that the Book of Revelation (which, in turn, is the source for the mentioned twelve-star halo of the Virgin Mary) helped to inspire him”

    I can also remeber being told it had something to do with the Delphic Oracle whilst studying Constitutional Law at uni.

  • abucs

    Thanks Metacom,

    It seems like it was a good spontaneous way to show empathy and solidarity.

  • merrie

    Dev
    Thx for the explanation about the stars on the EU flag.

  • Bob From Boston

    Flag flying by true patriots is a part of their culture. As soon as the liberal sheepdogs started barking, the anti-American left complied and put their flags away. True citizens of a country fly their flag whenever they get the urge. If you want to subordinate to the EU then fly that flag… I choose to fly the flags of my heritage. The Stars and Stripes and the TriColour, as I am a proud citizen of both countries.

  • George

    The problem with all this flag flying is what happens if you are the only person not flying one.

    I was in the States last summer and asked that very question and got the answer:

    Yeah but what kind of person wouldn’t want to fly the flag?

    Peer pressure and fear of the consequences means you virtually have to fly it.

  • Flying flags is the most pathetic statement about anything important, no matter where you live.

    I shall never forget when I got a mortgage from a bank to help buy a house in Massachusetts during the late 1960s, and its manager presented me with an American flag to fly over it.

    Needless to say, I was completely appalled by the gift, asking if I could not have something instead, like a bottle of wine or a box of chocolates,but I got nowhere.

    The last I knew that flag was still hanging in the barn when I left the place in the late 1980s – shortly before I left the rabid nationalistic place permanently .

    Flags are the adornment of nationalists who fear being seen as totally naked.

  • Aislingeach

    abucs–Sorry, gone all day. However, I agree with Metacom. I put the flag out as soon as I could after watching the towers collapse without really thinking about it. But when it became a “patriotic duty”, well… Never have cared for being pushed to do something to show loyalty–it’s only real if it comes from within.

  • Billy

    The difference is that in NI many “loyalists” don’t respect the flag. To them. it’s something to antagonise Catholics with and ” mark out their territory”.

    If they did respect it, you wouldn’t see so many tattered and dirty ones flying in “loyalist” areas. Along with the painted kerbstones, it creates a real slum look – over the years I’ve brought quite a few English friends over and they just can’t believe that state of some of these places.

    All my English/Friends colleagues are equally disgusted by the sight of “loyalists” dressing themselves up in the Union Jack and then behaving in a disgraceful manner.

    I am equally unimpressed by Nationalist areas with Triclours everywhere although the painted kerbstones seems to be a predominantly “loyalist” thing.

    The DUP and Baby Doc can moan all they like. Gordon Brown (and anyone vaguely sensible) knows that this NI is “as British as Finchly” stuff is complete crap. I studied/lived/worked in the UK for many years and it was my experience (and that of hundreds of others of friends/colleagues) that UK people don’t know or care about NI – they certainly don’t consider it to be as “British as Finchly” – the vast majority don’t even care if it’s British.

    There is no way that Brown is going to risk upsetting the current devolved administration in NI by changing the flags act. I doubt very much whether Cameron would either.

    Many NI “loyalists” like to delude themselves that the NI is a big concern to with UK electorate. This flag issue (as with many, many other NI issues) will hardly warrant a mention on the UK news.

    The UK govt realise that NI is not the same as England, Scotland and Wales. Legislation such as that dealing with flags is a clear demonstration of this.

    This situation will only move in 1 direction as UK govt (of any colour) are fed up bailing out NI to the tune of billions. They are happy to gradually back off and let the RoI take an increased role and increased financial contribution.

  • Metacom

    Massachusetts? Rabidly nationalistic? You’ve got to be shitting me. Where was you’re farm Trow, Southie?

  • PeaceandJustice

    Billy – you need to brush up on your geography a bit. The UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. So when you talk about UK people, you are talking about people from England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

    You also need to brush up on the rules concerning flag flying. There are also rules in England about flag flying – the Union flag should be officially flown 18 days per year.

    However, I do agree with you on one aspect. The Union flag should be treated with respect. It belongs to all the people of Northern Ireland, Roman Catholic and Protestant as we’re all part of the UK. Now that Sinn Fein IRA has stopped murdering people, perhaps we can get back to some normality and use our national flags in the correct manner (Northern Ireland and Union flags).

  • George

    PeaceandJustice,
    “The Union flag should be treated with respect.”

    All national flags should be treated with respect so I hope there will be a reduction in the usual mass burning of my country’s flag by unionists next week.

    You can’t have the leader of unionism giving the leader of the Irish people presents one month and his party keeping quiet weeks later as unionist communities across Northern Ireland get their jollies by burning Irish flags en masse.

    I live in hope that 2007 is the start of true respect.

  • Cahal

    “use our national flags in the correct manner (Northern Ireland and Union flags).”

    P&J (Trolls ‘r us), as a geography buff, you should be aware that ‘Northern’ Ireland doesn’t have a flag.

    It is of course represented via St. Patricks cross on the butcher’s apron.

    “The Union flag should be treated with respect. It belongs to all the people of Northern Ireland, Roman Catholic and Protestant as we’re all part of the UK.”

    I actually have a union jack toilet roll I have been keeping for my next night on the Guinness and curry. I shall wipe with pride and think of Mrs Windsor as I flush.

  • Billy

    P&J

    I don’t need to brush up on my geography, thank you.

    Based on my experience (and that of many other posters on this site), the vast majority of people in England, Scotland and Wales don’t really think of NI as “an integral part of the UK”.

    It’s not an issue of any interest beyond NI and the future of NI wouldn’t register on the list of concerns of over 90% of people outside NI.

    If you want to delude yourself that NI is “as British as Finchly” that’s up to you. During my time in London, I never met anyone (who wasn’t from NI) who gave a shit if I was a Catholic or Protestant or who understood or cared about the situation in NI.

    They are much more concerned about house prices, immigration, Islamic terror etc.

    The UK may technically include NI but, in reality, a lot of people don’t treat it as such.
    There is now a resurgence in English, Scots and Welsh Nationalism – why should these folk care about NI which has been sponging off the UK exchequer for decades?

    I’m a political realist. That’s why I use the term UK electorate to cover England, Scotland and Wales.

    I am well aware that the flying of the Union Jack is restricted by law in the UK also. However, if you read the article, Brown is considering changing this in England, Scotland and Wales BUT NOT NI.

    This hardly shows that NI is “as British as Finchly” does it? Tell me, if Brown does exclude NI – do you think there will be much media coverage in the UK? Do you think that there will be outrage in Parliament and the UK general public will be furious?

    Personally, I would bet that it will hardly warrant a mention in the media outside NI and that the vast majority of UK people will neither know nor care.

    Like I said, Baby Doc and the DUP can whinge as much as they like. Brown (or any other PM in my opinion) will not risk alienating well over 40% of the population in NI by changing these laws.

    More evidence that NI is treated very differently than any where else in the UK. There is certainly no reluctance to allow the RoI Govt increasing political and financial input is there?

    This will continue to be the case. If Unionists want to continue to live in the “British as Finchly” dreamland – that’s up to them.

  • observer

    love to see the nationalists on this board whinging again, REMEMBER LADS – N Ireland is part of the UK whether you like it or not
    stop your sectarian rants and get the flag of your country flying – the Union Flag.

    I know many of you murdered to bring it down, but it still flys proudly, Rule Britannia

  • ubservor

    but it still ‘flys’ proudly

    Its ‘flies’, observer.

    A case of too much time spent collecting tyres for the ‘boney’ in your younger days, maybe. 😉

  • Cahal

    Observer,

    Yes, we’re all murderers, us nationalists! Class!

    I have a few friends from the UK (one of them bought me the union jack bog roll) – judging by your intolerant comments on Slugger you don’t have a lot in common with British people.

    As for the union flag, it still flys over Gibraltar, the Falklands and good old ni. What an empire.

  • Cahal

    Ubservor, had a laught at your post then did the same myself. D’oh.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Cahal – “Northern Ireland doesn’t have a flag.” Yes, that’s right. Because it’s got two. The Union flag for the UK and the Northern Ireland flag which is the de facto flag to represent us within the UK.

    You say to observer “judging by your intolerant comments on Slugger” while at the same time showing no respect to others.

    Cahal – “Yes, we’re all murderers, us nationalists!” Unfortunately, the majority of Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland do support murderers i.e. Sinn Fein IRA. Compare this with the tiny support for the PUP.

    Billy – Another short entry from you! You should get a real hobby to burn up all that hatred inside you. Of course each region of the UK has different traditions. But deal with the facts and stop living in your dream world.

  • Cahal

    Ooooh, Defacto!
    Now, I’m off to do a bit of murderin’.

  • ciaran

    PJ don’t forget the dup is the largest party in the north and is led by the same people who started third force and ulster resistance. Just watch that moral highground of yours.

  • Sam Flanagan

    “MORAL HIGHGROUND”……that`s a phrase I have not heard for a very long time. Does anyone know the originator?
    Sound like something Peter Hans Kolvenbach or Richard Helmick could have conjured up?

  • heck

    “Yes, we’re all murderers, us nationalists!” Unfortunately, the majority of Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland do support murderers i.e. Sinn Fein IRA. Compare this with the tiny support for the PUP

    what a load of pompous bull shit.

    unfortunately the majority of unionists (and unfortunately that is the majority in Nor Iron) support murderers. ie Tony Blair/the british army. compare this with the tiny support for british imperialism in the nationalist community.

    come on “p&J”. Britain has been at war for all my life -and then some. Cyprus/kenya/aden/northern Ireland/iraq/afganistan/suez/oman/falklands/sierra leon/bosnia/kosovo
    and before I was born -but after the second world war Palestine/india/malaya and many more.

    every time this was justified by point to stupid people (the stupid irish, the moslems seaking 19 virgins); motivated by “hate” (cyprus/ireland/palestine/the balkans); who love “violence” (ireland/moslems); have ancient hatreds (ireland/india)and need the peace loving Brits on “peace keeping missions”.

    and every time there are some knuckleheads like you who believe this crap. Anyone who wants nor Iron to be part of a nation that had as its last prime minister a lying war criminal has no right to lecture nationalists for voting for Sinn Fein.

  • MOLLY maguire

    Why in the world should the Union Jack fly over governmental buildings in the disputed six counties of northern Ireland?

    This is bloodied territory with an ugly past and an undetermined future.

  • Billy

    P&J

    As I pointed out before, I am happily married to an English Protestant so I must really be full of hatred.

    I would say that you have more of a hatred problem – how it must hurt you that the days of taigs knowing their place have long gone.

    “But deal with the facts and stop living in your dream world”

    Thanks for the Friday laugh!

    I notice that you didn’t answer my questions. Do you think Brown will change the legislation in NI as well as Scotland, England and Wales?

    Do you think there will be any real opposition to this apart from the pitiful 10 Unionists (when they bother to turn up)?

    Do you think that the UK public will know or care?

    Do you think that the UK public give a shit about the status of NI?

    My unequivocal answer to all of the above is NO!!

    If you can provide any FACTS that prove the UK public have any knowledge or interest in NI, then let’s have them.

    Otherwise, I think this proposed legislation is yet another demonstration that Unionists are pitifully hanging on to a country that couldn’t give a f**k about them – indeed sees them as a load of spongers.

    I look forward to seeing the Union Jack flying proudly from all the govt buildings in London every day.

    Unfortunately, for those of you in NI, this will only be possible on 17 days out of 365. “As British as Finchly” eh?

    One of us may be living in a dreamworld but it certainly isn’t me.

  • McGrath

    “love to see the nationalists on this board whinging again, REMEMBER LADS – N Ireland is part of the UK whether you like it or not
    stop your sectarian rants and get the flag of your country flying – the Union Flag.

    I know many of you murdered to bring it down, but it still flys proudly, Rule Britannia

    Posted by observer on Jul 05, 2007 @ 10:46 PM”

    In spite of your “loyalty”, how does it feel to know that the vast majority of the people of England, Scotland and Wales still regard you as a “dumb paddy”.

  • Kevster

    Regarding flags:

    If they bring people together, they are altogether fitting and proper. If a flag sets people apart, I’d fly it as rarely as possible, perhaps never.

    A flag is only as good as the idea behind it.

    I always thought the Irish flag was nice symbolism, all that unity. I wish the flag makers would agree on a shade of orange, though.

    The three crosses on the British flag have always been difficult for me to make out, like the white x is above the red on the top and below it on the bottom, or something like that. Never looked right to me.

    Compromise is called for about the flags. How about an old Ulster flag, with, say, half a crown?

  • Cahal

    McGrath, to be fair, I don’t think the Brits regard us as ‘dumb paddies’ any longer.
    We’ll maybe some of us (see P&J’s comments).

  • Forecast

    Billy

    The fact is that the majority of Brits (the English) give as much of a fuck about NI as they do about Scotland or Wales. They all have the devolved institutions that they have been moaning about for all these years, so leave em to it the whinging fuckers.

    So in that respect Belfast is as British as Glasgow or Cardiff ie who gives a flying toss, my council tax is massive, got to get to Tescos before it shuts and must remember to pay off my credit card.

    However, in the grand scheme of things, if you met someone from the home countries (on holidays etc) you would treat someone from NI as you would someone from Scotland or Wales or England.

  • Gréagóir O’ Franclín

    ‘However, I do agree with you on one aspect. The Union flag should be treated with respect. It belongs to all the people of Northern Ireland, Roman Catholic and Protestant as we’re all part of the UK. Now that Sinn Fein IRA has stopped murdering people, perhaps we can get back to some normality and use our national flags in the correct manner (Northern Ireland and Union flags).’

    It is rather hilarious how Peace & Justice continually insults the sensibilities of Irish Nationalists in NI. His or her completely blinkered view, oblivious to the last 30 odd years of the troubles is surely a leviathon of ignorance and totally at odds with the new air of peace, justice, reconciliation, understanding and respect etc….

  • Dawkins

    “The Union flag should be treated with respect.”

    As should the Confederacy flag. Is it just me or does one see fewer and fewer of them flying from NI lampposts?

  • Wilde Rover

    Merrie, Dev

    I stand corrected. I had thought it was because they decided to stop adding stars after Spain and Portugal joined. You learn something new every day.

  • Metacom, I meant what I said about the USA being rabidly nationalistic.

    Did you read Bob From Boston’s post, and its immediate response, from George as I recall. They show just how demanding popular culture is in marching lock-step with the troops and the colors wherever the White House chooses to send them.

    It’s simply a delusion to act as if this isn’t the case.

    And I didn’t live in Southie. I lived on a small farm in Princeton – fairly near the center of the state, and known for Mount Wachusetts. (phonetic, as I am no longer sure of its spelling – its been so long.)

  • Bigger Picture

    Macswiney

    You probably didnt see flags up in East Belfast last week because it was June and not July. Flags are not put until 1 July traditionally (except the stupid idiots who don’t take the flags down again). Im sure if you were in East Belfast this week it would be different.

  • Very good folks, you destroyed the arguments of that peace and justice guy hook line and sinker. I’m English and I’m completely embarrassed by those unionists in NI, my friends and colleagues think they’re stuck in the 16th century, well having seen the first post today (about jan hus) maybe they’re stuck in the 15th century (pardon me). They look so camp in their marching uniforms on the 12th of july, maybe they can arrange to march together with gay pride next year. Flag flying is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Northern Ireland, gibraltar, the falklands; legacies of colonialism, they are not British and we should get rid of each and every one of them. You sad people, we don’t want you, you are irish, not British, you are a strain on our economy.

  • Forecast

    ravey davey Kent

    1)Does that apply to the Scots and Welsh as well?

    2)How big is the spoiler on your Corsa with the big exhaust?

  • Bigger Picture

    Awk auld davey boy,

    The remarks you made are even more Republican than some of the idiots on here. Just makes me wonder if when you say Kent your really from Armagh. We’ve had posts and posts about NI not being British and then Davy Boy from Conservative middle England comes on lol coincidence …..i think not

  • Bigger Picture

    Btw

    I have my British passport so i’ll also stick two fingers up to anyone from the motherland who says i am not British.

  • The part of kent I come from is far from your idea of consevative middle england. Yes I do believe England should be independent of Wales and Scotland. Still though, if we had a vote on northern ireland tomorrow, we’d vote to give it back. The polls have always confirmed this.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,2763,540092,00.html

  • Forecast

    Errr, think I need to clarify the point I was making.
    Just because English people could not give two hoots about NI, it does not mean it is any less part of the UK, as the English don’t give two hoots about Wales and Scotland. It is equal in the concious of the Sun readers with the other nations of the UK.

  • Bigger Picture

    Well… were is that?? Im just trying to prove that you ae who you say you are.. too many phony bloggers on this site you see

  • Bob From Boston

    ‘Did you read Bob From Boston’s post, and its immediate response, from
    George as I recall. They show just how demanding popular culture is in
    marching lock-step with the troops and the colors wherever the White House
    chooses to send them.’

    BS…Typical liberal mindreading from the bunch that has turned this state into a socialist shithole. I carry no water for the fools in Washington. I fly the flags to honor my country and the great people (on both sides of the pond)who have given their lives for what they believe in. Something the liberal ‘multiculturalist’ cowards can’t stand. I prefer a strong nationalist community. That’s what has made the USA so unique and successful. Those people who seek to destroy that concept (EU, US democrat, liberal socialists) should be burned at the stake.
    I’m OFD btw.

  • Metacom

    Hyde Park. Though with many fond memories of Walsh Park after CYO dances at St Gregs – Dot girls were easy!

  • Observer

    N Ireland is british, a secure part of the UK, despite the murderous attempts of many nationalists over the last 40 years. Thats more than enough reason to fly the flag.

    RULE BRITANNIA

  • Cahal

    Hey Observer, I’ve been showing my work mates your comments. Keep them coming, we’re loving every one of them.

    RULE OBSERVOR, QUEEN OF SLUGGER.

  • vinty

    observer

    British with a small b

    Maybe you’re not convinced !!!

  • observer

    ahhhh, the sun continues to rise and set on the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    Those murderous nationalists who killed,bombed and tortured men, women and children have now sworn allegiance to the state and therefore to the Union Flag. LOL

    Rule Britannia Indeed!!

  • Metacom, I can easily see why you have suddenly grown completely incoherent – mistaking me for Dorchester’s Bob in Boston, the guy who believes that the USA has been taken over by the commies, lefties and other assorted queers!

  • kensei

    “RULE OBSERVOR, QUEEN OF SLUGGER.”

    Brilliant.

  • English

    It’s amazing that the Union flag is used predominantly in NI. Time to move on! NOBODY except (roughly half) the people in NI and a select few divs from Scotland think that people from NI are actually British. Your either English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish (depending on birth place). It is not rocket science is it?

  • Billy

    Observer

    “N Ireland is british, a secure part of the UK”

    Yeah, that’s why the UK govt let a “foreign” govt have substantial and increasing input into the running of NI.

    I can’t quite see that happening in Scotland or Wales somehow. But then, they are integral parts of the UK.

    There may be growing Scots and Welsh nationalism but the UK govt is not actively trying to get out of either country.

    Even someone as prejudiced as you cannot fail to see that no-one outside NI gives a shit about it and that the UK govt is pursuing a policy of disengagement both political and financial.

    “Loyalists” are so pathetic. Your “loyalty” has always been conditional and now that you are pathetically hanging on to a country that couldn’t give a f**k about you.

    As Davey-Boy above correctly says – all the polls show that, if there were a vote taken in the UK, the vast majority of voters couldn’t give a shit about NI and would pull out in a second.

    The UK govt can’t be seen to act so blatently. However, it is clear that they are pursuing a policy of gradual disengagement.

    As the Nationalist numbers grow and the financial stake of the RoI in NI increases, the link with the UK will be more and more tenuous.

    You are, of course, quite correct that NI is currently British and I can’t see a substantial change to that for maybe 10 years.

    However, the changes are all in 1 direction – the weakening of the Union and the strengthening of ties with the RoI.

    The “Orange Card” has been faced down by the British. The bottom line is that the UK govt are in complete control and they will continue to disengage from NI. It’s a win win situation for them – they get rid of a load of spongers, save billions and it won’t cost them a vote because no-one in GB gives a F**K about the status of NI.

    The Unionists can shout “No Surrender” all they want – there is nothing that they can do about it.

  • McGrath

    McGrath, to be fair, I don’t think the Brits regard us as ‘dumb paddies’ any longer.
    We’ll maybe some of us (see P&J’s comments).

    Posted by Cahal on Jul 06, 2007 @ 06:53 AM

    I travel extensively (manufacturing business), I get to interact with the English and multiple English Ex-Patriots in various locations on a constant basis. Without wanting to seem paranoid, both I and various patriot colleagues (prods and all) get the “Dumb Paddy” vibe on a frequent basis. Still, we enjoy spending their money.

  • merrie

    >>still, we enjoy spending their money<

  • Brian Boru

    NI is obviously different.

  • Sean

    NI is not and could never be british its a matter of geography.

    NI is a part of the UK but a seemingly unwanted part

    If you are living in NI you do not have a british passport you have a NI passport
    As it clearly states Great Britain AND Northern Ireland

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    Arguing over whether a NI person’s passport is British or not is really fucking piss-weak pedantry.

    ‘If you are living in NI you do not have a british passport you have a NI passport’

    Er no – you have a UK passport, commonly known as a British passport..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_passport

    So what happens if you are from NI, you have a ‘NI passport’ to use your phrase and you move to England. Does it magically become, like something out of Harry Potter, a British passport? What if one then leaves the UK completely, but travels on a British passport – what Rowling-esque transformation happens to said passport then?

    As for British citizenship, it is acquired ‘lex soli’ – By birth in the United Kingdom to a parent who is a British citizen at the time of the birth, or to a parent who is settled in the United Kingdom.

    Great Britain is different to the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland is not part of Britain, yet ‘Northern Irelanders’ (for want of a better word) are British citizens, yada, yada, feckin yada.

  • lib2016

    The concept of a ‘British Passport’ has changed continuously and it is already being replaced by an EU passport.

    Until 1949 both Australians and Canadians had British passports but given Britain’s inability to defend itself let alone them in WW2 they left the jolly old Empire in 1949 and issued their own passports. It will be remembered that Norn Ireland was originally set up with the intention of it’s becoming an self-governed (and financed) dominion like both of them, preferably as part of a reunited Ireland.

    Sadly Norn Ireland became a dependency to the extent of one English PM dismissing it’s inhabitants as ‘spongers’. Since then it has become ever more unstable and ever more unable to govern itself.

    Perhaps ‘overseas British’ would be the nearest equivalent to the current status of a ‘Wee Norniner’ given that integration with Britain was never a runner….bit difficult to fill in the Irish Sea, donncha know? And yet equivalent status to the Hongkong Chinese and Ugandan Asians isn’t quite right either.

    One does wonder when the next change in status will take place. No doubt about what that change will be, of course.

  • Jim from Plymouth

    I regard the people from Northern Ireland to be as British as I am, if that is what they claim to be, all my friends, colleague and family agree on this.
    Who am I to reject their natural national identity?.

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    Lib2016

    You raise an interesting point re. the EU but the rest of your post is largely irrelevant. Maybe one day we will all be simply EU citizens, until that day we remain either British or Irish citizens, or both. Of course, a side-effect of EU citizenry is that the Irish language now appears on the British passport! Thanks for the history lesson on AU + NZ, and even NI, but in terms of this discussion, who cares.

    ‘Perhaps ‘overseas British’ would be the nearest equivalent to the current status of a ‘Wee Norniner’ ‘
    No, the nearest equivalent to ‘Wee Norniner’ is ‘British Citizen’ or even ‘Irish Citizen’ because that is what they are. A Tasmanian is not an ‘overseas Australian’, an Aran Islander is not an ‘overseas Irish’. Before anyone states the obvious, I’m well aware that mainlander Australians see Tasmanians as being somewhat different, but it doesn’t change the fact that they are Australian citizens. Just as any ‘Wee Norniner’ who holds a British passport can hold up the document and point to the part that says ‘British citizen’.

    ‘bit difficult to fill in the Irish Sea, donncha know?’
    No-one trying to fill in Galway Bay or the Tasman sea either. Nor for that matter, the Pacific between Honolulu and LA.

    ‘One does wonder when the next change in status will take place. No doubt about what that change will be, of course’
    Really? No doubt whatsoever eh? So what exactly will that change be? Passport of the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland? Passport of the Federation of UK and Ireland? Passport of the Peoples Republic of Greater China? Unless you are Nostrodamus (and if you are, why are you hear instead of enjoying your lottery winnings) there is plenty of doubt as to what the next change of status will be. With a moniker of lib’2016′ forgive me if I don’t take your predictions too seriously…