Harbinson loses his latest ‘Alamo’…


AS expected, the Parades Commission has banned loyalist provocateur Mark Harbinson’s Pride of the Village Flute Band (see above) from entering two mixed areas of Stoneyford. The Commission noted that intimidated residents of Stonebridge Meadows and “that an illegal parade took place through Stonebridge Meadows and The Beeches on the evening of Tuesday 26th June 2007″. The determination continued: “The Commission is deeply disappointed that this incident occurred and may have a detrimental effect on community relations. The Commission notes that the original Form 11/1 was received on 17th March 2007 and a subsequent amended Form 11/1 was received on 27th June 2007. No reason was given for this late notification and the Commission is concerned that its submission may have been an attempt by the parade organiser to avoid the Commission’s condemnation of his illegal and unwelcome parade. On reflection therefore The Commission has taken the decision not to accept the amended Form 11/1 and has made its determination on the Form 11/1 received on 17th March 2007.”

  • What exactly does Harbinson gain from this sort of provocation other then intimidating a clearly frightened group of residents of his own village? Did he go to sleep happily after this days ‘work’, I wonder…?

    Not all of the dinosaurs are extinct…

  • Frank Sinistra

    No, Harbison won unless he faces the courts. He got both the parade he expected and so far an illegal parade without sanction.

    Still waiting for the good people of Stoneyford to stand up in support of their neighbours against the thug.

  • Gareth

    Frank Sinistra

    I agree with your idea of standing up to such people, but I wonder what people can actually do. Does anyone actually have a practical and safe answer to this type of thing?

  • Oranges for Sale

    The specifics of this particular case not withstanding, heres a question: When does a mixed area equal a nationalist area? Furthermore, if the two communities are being encouraged to live in more mixed housing developments, wont that mean there will simply be more and more objections to any loyalist parade on the basis that there will always be a few bitter nationalists to moan?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    OfS: “The specifics of this particular case not withstanding, heres a question: When does a mixed area equal a nationalist area? Furthermore, if the two communities are being encouraged to live in more mixed housing developments, wont that mean there will simply be more and more objections to any loyalist parade on the basis that there will always be a few bitter nationalists to moan? ”

    First of all, you would appear to think that one’s religious affiliation and their political preference are interchangable and absolute. They’re not.

    Second, do not Catholic residents of a “mixed area” have a right to a reasonably normal life, free from the antics of Loyalist hoodlums? Likewise, just for grins, do not Protestant residents have a right to similar, but polar opposite, antics?

    Lastly, you would seem to assume that ordinary Protestants would not object to this sort of foolishness, along with the seemingly inevitable drunken vandalism that follows these events. As recent news stories discussed on Slugger would suggest, OO parades and events are wearing out there welcomes out even in some Protestant areas — if not for their own behavior, but for the ilk they attract.

  • I Wonder

    I don’t think itd just be “a bitter nationalist” who’d object to this man and his views:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,596068,00.html

    Harbinson…is a member of Stoneyford Orange Lodge, at Lisburn, near Belfast. In 1999 its Orange Hall was raided by police, who took away intelligence files on 400 or so republican suspects. The material had been downloaded from computers at the British army’s NI headquarters in Lisburn. Harbinson later told me no documents had been found. The whole incident had been contrived “to blacken my name”, he said.

    “We now have a massive mandate,” said Harbinson. “Everything is being considered. Wait and see. We are fighting for our very existence. The only time the loyalist people was successful was the Ulster Workers Council strike in 1974.”

    Harbinson said that even if 99% of the people in NI voted for a United Ireland, he would oppose it: “Who said I was a democrat?” Few among the departing crowd were willing to talk to journalists. “The media is against us,” said a woman. “The whole world is against us.”

    Truly, any “decent person” would have to stand by such a man. 🙂

  • nmc

    “The media is against us,” said a woman. “The whole world is against us.”

    Telling remark.

  • Stoneyford UKIP

    Shame on this Ulster Unionist member.

  • willis

    Is Mark Harbinson about to ascend to that Pantheon of “Misunderstood” Layalist Greats – George Seawright – Billy Wright – Johnny Adair – Willie Frazer – David Vance. Honest men cast aside by a Political elite determined to place power before principle.

    Let’s hope so!

  • Oranges for Sale

    Dread
    Firstly I should say that, any intimidation is wrong. But my point is how do you define what is actually intimidating about a parade? I could well imagine that if a parade passed off peacefully and was well marshalled with no drunken antics etc, some Catholics could still see it as threatening. Whereas others might just say ‘fair play, theres been no harm done’.

    “you would seem to assume that ordinary Protestants would not object to this sort of foolishness”

    I would consider myself to be ‘ordinary Protestant’, and I actually seldom attend minor parades, but it is still what I would consider to be the closest thing I have to culture and therefore I do not oppose them, if they remain peaceful. I would have to say that I long for the day when everyone can attend a band parade and be welcome, but of course that would be terribly naive of me due to individuals on both sides.

    I Wonder
    As I said before, I wasn’t making a direct reference to the Stonyford situation or the background of Harbinson. Its also sad for me that you link to an article about Martin O’Hagan, a man who I had few pints with in our local from time to time. But my point is that while I realise that my culture as a protestant is (at the minute) not perfect, I would still support a bands right to parade peacefully. I simply don’t want an important part of my culture to be reduced to a five minute walk down a remote beach in Rossnowlagh, as is traditional in the republic. I think it should also be recognised that while there certainly are sectarian elements within the loyal organisations there are also nationalists who will never be satisfied either.

  • lib2016

    Oranges for Sale,

    The problem for the OO is that they don’t seem to be able to realise the need to re-invent themselves.

    Elsewhere there’s mention of the fact that the sheer number of OO marches upsets even the people who should be their natural supporters.

    The fact of the matter is that they can’t block main routes and certainly not city centres any more. Wherever they take their marches to it will have to be somewhere that doesn’t annoy the rest of us.

    I would like to see a place for Gaelic culture but it doesn’t mean that I want a return to Brehon Law or whatever. Dammit society is supposed to evolve!

  • jimboy2

    ““The media is against us,” said a woman. “The whole world is against us.””

    Cornered animals can be dangerous.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    OfS: “But my point is how do you define what is actually intimidating about a parade? I could well imagine that if a parade passed off peacefully and was well marshalled with no drunken antics etc, some Catholics could still see it as threatening. Whereas others might just say ‘fair play, theres been no harm done’. ”

    Which is an important conditional — “if.”

    The track-record of some groups and some parades is such that that would be a mighty big “if”

    However, were a parade, free of banners celebrating UVF murderers and “party tunes” to progress in an orderly fashion, without incident or mishap, I would tend to agree, all other factors being equal.

    However, there is history to consider, what with poor marshalling, potted attendees and “thud and blunder” bands.

    OfS: “I would consider myself to be ‘ordinary Protestant’, and I actually seldom attend minor parades, but it is still what I would consider to be the closest thing I have to culture and therefore I do not oppose them, if they remain peaceful. ”

    Firstly, if the closest thing you think you have to a culture is a collection of drunken yobs howling anti-Catholic lyrics to the tune of “Home of the Range” in front of a chapel in the course of celebrating good King William, then perhaps you might consider getting out a little more often. Celebrations of battles that occurred centuries ago and party tunes is the best you can manage as describing your culture? You mean to tell me you believe every meaningful artist to come out of the six counties has been a Catholic, and the best you have are some sophmoric party tunes?

    Secondly, there’s that “if” again… if ifs and ands were pots and pans and all that. You can’t even have an OO march through a Protestant neighborhood without the yobs commiting drunken mayhem, why would Catholics or mixed neighborhoods want the dubious pleasure of this sort of company?

  • Oranges for Sale

    lib2016

    “Elsewhere there’s mention of the fact that the sheer number of OO marches upsets even the people who should be their natural supporters.”

    Is there any on-line material to support this claim?

    “the fact of the matter is that they can’t block main routes and certainly not city centres any more. ”

    Why? Like it or loath it the Orange culture is unique, but there are many other expressions of culture all over the world that have parade format and this presents no problem for the host cities concerned. Would you apply your comment to, for example, the lord mayors parade, or the st patricks day parade?

    “I would like to see a place for Gaelic culture but it doesn’t mean that I want a return to Brehon Law or whatever”

    To a certain extent there is probably more of a place for gaelic culture already (although feel free to correct me on this). For instance, i regularly attend cultural events in Belfast that consist of traditional Irish music etc and I always have a good time, and feel very welcome listening to what is normally percieved as nationalist expressions of culture. Why cant nationalists feel the same way about my culture as long as its expressed in a responsible manner rather than become (as you say) annoyed?

  • Cahal

    lib2016
    “The fact of the matter is that they can’t block main routes and certainly not city centres any more.”

    Why do you think that? They did it only a few years ago.

  • Oranges for Sale

    Dread

    “Firstly, if the closest thing you think you have to a culture is a collection of drunken yobs howling anti-Catholic lyrics to the tune of “Home of the Range” in front of a chapel in the course of celebrating good King William, then perhaps you might consider getting out a little more often.”

    Thats a bit strong isn’t it?

    Look, I assume your a nationalist and therefore you’ve probably only witnessed the worst of loyalist parades. Yes, your quite right in condemning banners featuring (what you claim to be) UVF murderers. This is unacceptable for me also. However, unlike me you have probably seldom experienced a highly regulated, proper parade. Which is what i consider to be the essence of protestant culture, which is attended by GOOD people and not the drunken morons who you’ve probably witnessed. Those ‘ifs’ you speak of really are not that hard to accomplish. I think I’m being quite reasonable here, unless you one of those impossible to satisfy nationalists i was referring to earlier.

    p.s. Party tunes?!?!

  • assemblywatchman

    fair play to the Parades Commission for having the courage of its convictions anyway. This thug marches illegally through the housing estates he has been barred from in recent years; then he attempts to amend his application to march through them this year in order to avoid being barred from them! imagine the devious plotting going on in his mind.

    Then the PC says, (albeit in more diplomatic language) screw your fresh application, we are taking your first one only and you can f*** off. well done!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    OfS: “Thats a bit strong isn’t it? ”

    Yeah, it is, but subtlety is sometimes over-rated, whilst hyperbole is seldom over-looked.

    OfS: “Look, I assume your a nationalist and therefore you’ve probably only witnessed the worst of loyalist parades.”

    My politics are complicated, but, to be fair, its not the “went-off-without-a-hitch-or-riot” parades that stick in anyone’s memory.

    OfS: “However, unlike me you have probably seldom experienced a highly regulated, proper parade.”

    Actually, I have, from both sides of the equation, just not with or for the OO.

    OfS: “Those ‘ifs’ you speak of really are not that hard to accomplish.”

    If it’s so easy, why do they occur every year like clock-work?

    OfS: “I think I’m being quite reasonable here, unless you one of those impossible to satisfy nationalists i was referring to earlier.”

    Perhaps you weren’t clear on what I typed…

    “However, were a parade, free of banners celebrating UVF murderers and “party tunes” to progress in an orderly fashion, without incident or mishap, I would tend to agree, all other factors being equal. ”

    I like to think I’m fairly reasonable — the only folks who should have an automatic right to march in any given area is the local OO lodge and associated local bands — they have to live with the consequences of what they do, so they should be given a little more freedom. The same should apply to Republicans.

    Save where there has been a history of trouble, all I would want is reasonable precautions, reasonable defined as marshals capable of marshalling and, as we have both agreed, an absolute absence of overt sectarian symbols, banners, etc. I’d not object to bowlers and sashes if you’d allow for other sartorial options for other parties.

    Parades should have a reasonable start and ending time and misbehavior of any material sort would result in a “time out” of no less than a year — screw up this year and no parade next year — again, this would apply to *ALL* parties who wish to parade, not just the OO.

    The biggest problem is that regulations addressing most of the problems already exist in one form or another, yet go unenforced. Part of the solution would be police worthy of the title.

  • Sean

    OFS
    where on this site or any other site have you seen anyone object to a well regulated parade?

    The reason the names of these same parades come up every year is specifically because they are not well regulated or respectfull of the local community

    Take drumcree the oo insists there has to be solution to this parade, why can’t the solution of the last 10 years be the solution for the next 100 years. No parade down the Garvaghy road, that IS a solution.

  • heritage

    One poxy band, how exactly is that intimidating – after reading the post I was expecting to see at least 10 kick the pope type bands but no, only one small group, quit whinging!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    heritage: “One poxy band, how exactly is that intimidating – after reading the post I was expecting to see at least 10 kick the pope type bands but no, only one small group, quit whinging! ”

    One wonders if you;d be willing to take the same advice the next time a couple dozen members of the beret and bomber-jacket set decide they want an illegal march…

  • DJK

    As probably the only poster in this tiring discussion who is from Stoneyford and actually knows Harbinson, let me put some things straight.

    Harbinson is a bigoted scumbag and thug who should be behind bars in my considered view. He has dragged a historically peaceful and accomodating village into the muck.

    Any parade through one of the new housing developments is clearly a diversion from the traditional small parade through the main street to the Orange Hall. My only conclusion is that it is designed to cause offence. Harbinson is the personification of all the is derisable in the Orange culture.

    The OO need to clense itself of this cancer and return to its roots of celebrating and promoting the reformed faith. Out with the kick the pope bands and in with the hymns and scripture. That is their only hope of survival.

    If they don’t survive then no big loss. Hopefully the same will happen to the other dinosaurs on the republican side.

    Dread,

    we crossed posts. i left you one on the earlier Stoneyford thread.

  • Plum Duff

    Oranges for Sale

    ‘i regularly attend cultural events in Belfast that consist of traditional Irish music etc and I always have a good time, and feel very welcome listening to what is normally percieved as nationalist expressions of culture’

    You may perceive it, OfS, but it says more about you than determined by the actual facts on the ground. Most of the people who play ‘Irish’ traditional music in the North-East to South-East Down areas are not from the Nationalist tradition and have no wish to be associated with it. The same goes for many musicians from Belfast and Co Antrim, to my knowledge. I cannot speak for the other counties. With great respect, what you say is rubbish. Traditional music is music per se and does not know, nor do its participants (for the most part) care about, sectarian or political allegiances. If you can play, and more especially if you can play well, all doors are open to you. And I speak from actual experience.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    DJK: “What I see is a huge amount of debate and outrage over harbinson and his cronies. Yes I agree it is obscene and it needs to be dealt with. Personally I would prefer it if the protestant community in Stoneyford took the initative and stand shoulder to shoulder with their catholic neighbours.”

    It’s be nice, but it is not happening, so other options must be excercised.

    DJK: ” I would equally like to see soem evidence from the posters on this site that they are as committed to recognising and condemn the actions of those thugs from their own community. Plenty of nationalists do. You, Chris and others don’t appear to fall into that camp. You have no credibility in my eyes.”

    No, some of us simply decline to go into whataboutery, something that others aren’t quite all that restrictive about.

    Frankly, I’d like to both sides acting like grown-ups, but that seems to be a long shot.

    DJK: “Rather than recognise the real, (perhaps invalid), perceptions of people like me who would happily stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone under threat, you choose to paint me as the “bad guy” driven by tribalism. ”

    Your quote, sir:

    ““If you don’t understand how that causes us to suspect malign motives in claiming grievance against the OO, then we really can’t have a useful dialogue. ”

    If you are going to confess to being suspicous of Catholic motives, then why complain when I acknowledge you said it?

    You’re the one who prefers to MOPE on about extracurricular events, rather than address the issue, DJK, not I.

  • Sean:

    “where on this site or any other site have you seen anyone object to a well regulated parade?”

    Your very next 2 paragraphs.

    “The reason the names of these same parades come up every year is specifically because they are not well regulated or respectfull of the local community”

    “Take drumcree the oo insists there has to be solution to this parade, why can’t the solution of the last 10 years be the solution for the next 100 years. No parade down the Garvaghy road, that IS a solution. “

    You go from saying nobody’s opposing well-marshalled parades to saying the OO should be banned from Garvaghy for 100 years! They haven’t been down it in something like 10 years and so haven’t even had a chance to prove they can behave in that time.

    My proposal: Let them down for one year. See if they behave themselves. Warn them that they don’t get down for a minimum of another 5 years if they or their hangers on are seen to be causing trouble. The eyes of the whole country would be on them too.

    Sorry this is all off-topic but I’ve never heard of this Harbinson fellow before so can’t really comment on him.

  • Frank Sinistra

    Why are there so many attempts to send this very specific topic down rabbit trails?

    Drumcree? McGovern? Republican parades?

    None of these are relevant.

    An illegal parade was organised by a man convicted of public order offences in relation to parades, he was immediately granted permission to organise two further parades.

    Local or not, raising and insisting that other irrelevant issues are addressed is just equivocation.

    This is a stand alone issue. It’s people like Harbison that make the innocuous traditions of a village into deliberately offensive and divisive issues. It’s playing his game by insisting that any objection to his shit-stirring can only be accommodated by referencing other distant issues from the past.

    Harbison is wrong. He creates mayhem, divsion and hate. Stop playing his whatabout game and deal with the fact he is the only sectarian. intimidatory or violent issue in current Stoneyford regardless of other historical issues that caused pain in the village.

    Things have moved since the awful death of Adrian. Why are things moving backwards in Stoneyford?

    Because the majority community have let it!

    Stop with the the whatabout. Deal with the right now.

  • Sean

    Frank agreed

    Beano. why not now? because the orange order has only just agreed to sort of direct talk with the residents and its too little too late. if they want to march in 2008 maybe they should shelve their bullsh*t and talk to the people. no arbitrator no parades commisioner just talk. maybe if they can learn to treat the residents as human they can in turn have their concerns treated as worth resolving

    sorry Frank I can agree with your point perfectly but I could not back down from the worthless challenge. Why not let them prove themselves after they march? Why not prove yourselves before you march? They have already proved they can’t be trusted, now its time to prove they can be!

  • Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín

    ‘Lastly, you would seem to assume that ordinary Protestants would not object to this sort of foolishness, along with the seemingly inevitable drunken vandalism that follows these events. As recent news stories discussed on Slugger would suggest, OO parades and events are wearing out there welcomes out even in some Protestant areas—if not for their own behavior, but for the ilk they attract.’

    And now they want to march on Dublin around August time.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Given the amount of anti-Orange anti-Protestant and anti-Unionist hate on this site, if that is representative of the Pan-Nationalist community then no wonder there are issues on the streets.

    The GAA is allowed to celebrate Sinn Fein IRA mass murderers – and gets Government funding for its facilities. Republicans have illegal parades and get away with it. And families who’ve had their loved ones murdered by Sinn Fein IRA are governed by those same killers. But it appears that these things don’t matter to the majority of the Roman Catholic population in Northern Ireland.

    Anyway, some of us have real work to do – unlike some people who are paid in used bank notes to post on here.

  • Gréagóir O’ Fránclin

    Peace and Justice….oh dear, oh dear!

    If a godless Samaritan had it in his heart to have pity on a destitute man maybe you as a practicing Protestant Christian could have it in your heart to embrace and love your neighbours and enemies as Christ would want you to do.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    PeaceandJustice

    Anything to say on the actual subject?

  • damo

    “Anyway, some of us have real work to do”

    You can’t do that much real work, you spend most of your time on here !!!

  • Gréagóir O’ Fránclin

    I would dearly wish that people who love to parade their faith in public (such as the Orange Order and the like; the Catholic church too!) would sincerely and strictly adhere to the rules and codes of their faith, else their is no point in professing to be a desciple of Christ or whoever. One is not Christian therefore. No room in heaven for pius men!

    10 commands to follow and on no account break, and Christ said love your enemies, as it says in the good book!

  • Billy

    PeaceandJustice

    “Given the amount of anti-Orange anti-Protestant and anti-Unionist hate on this site, if that is representative of the Pan-Nationalist community then no wonder there are issues on the streets.”

    Is your anti-Catholic, anti-Nationalist hatred and your ignoring/defending the “loyalist” terrorists (and their supporters in the OO)representative of the so-called “loyalist” community then?

    The only way that you’ll be happy is if there is a return to pre 1968 Unionist discrimination and domination. I’m glad to say that, unfortunately for you, those days are gone forever.

    Live with it.

  • lib2016

    There are a lot of owner-occupiers in Stoneyford. How long do you reckon Harbinson’s reign of terror will last now that he and his pathetic gang are hitting property prices?

    There’ll be a lot of outraged citizens chasing up the police from now on. First rule of politics – never hit the middleclass where it really hurts.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Billy – As usual you fail to mention the discrimination and domination in Eire against the Protestant population who were forced to keep their heads down under the threat of intimidation. So perhaps if you gave more attention to the other side of the border it might broaden your outlook.

    Stoneyford. The point is how some Pan-Nationalists on here define intimidation. It’s certainly not a band playing some Orange tunes. It’s certainly not flying the flags of this country i.e. Northern Ireland and Union flags. I agree that any actual intimidation is unacceptable. However, we know how people like Chris Donnelly and lib2016 have nothing to say about Sinn Fein IRA murdering a Roman Catholic in Stoneyford.

    So they seem to be saying that murder was OK – carried out by Sinn Fein IRA but a few Orange tunes are unbearable. What jokers!

    I also find it quite dangerous that various people on here (or the same multi-identity individuals) are making quite specific allegations about a particular person. If there is evidence of wrong-doing go to the police. Otherwise, I would have thought there could be LEGAL implications if these allegations keep getting repeated.

    damo – Compared to some of the Pan-Nationalists on here, I don’t post very much. However, you’re probably right that it’s still too much – there are many other better things to be doing! I think Pan-Nationalists on here don’t want debate. They want cultural domination. If one of them moves into a Protestant area, they want domination of the streets as well (as they are so much against Ulster-British culture). Yet they would be the first to deny a Protestant living in a Roman Catholic area the right to express their culture.

    Pan-Nationalists want to use this site for anti-Orange, anti-Protestant, anti-Unionist vitriol. And how dare someone from the Unionist community interrupt them with their propaganda project! Do they want all Unionists to stop using Slugger so they can talk to themselves?

  • lib2016

    PeaceandJustice,

    On this board and elsewhere I’ve condemned violence from all sides, including republican violence many times. Don’t mind doing it again either but it’s not actually germane to this thread.

    This blog IS about NI politics and one would expect a varying proportion of the regulars to be anti-unionist, that proportion being mostly around 40%/50% just as it is in society.

    The British detest Orange ‘culture’ and the local disagreements between the various brands of Christianity are a source of wonder to most people in the wider world, whether or not they themselves are Christian.

    There have been sectarian incidents in the South but the spokemen for the COI are very clear that it was not the norm and has now ceased. The Protestant population are overwhelmingly republican and proud to be Irish. They are also increasing in size.

    The fact is that the unionist community has been left behind by history and can’t blame anyone but itself for it’s current universal unpopularity.

    Conor O’Brien pointed out that unionism was in decline and should do a deal while it still could. That was some time ago.

  • Cruimh

    Lib – unionism may be in decline – I’m not convinced – but one thing is for sure, unification is further away than it was in the 70s and 80s.

  • Sean

    P&J
    whipe away the tears, just because you are incapable of forming an arguement that can not be easily refuted in 6 words or less wuit the mopery

    This is very much a pro unionist blog with a small amount of postings from the nationalist community

    However many of the people who read and comment on this page are pro-nationalist. I know thats really an odd occasion since only about 40% of n.Ireland and most of the rest of the world are pro united Ireland. So surely no more than 8 or 9% of the comentators should be pro nationalist i suppose

  • lib2016

    ‘-unionism may be in decline – I’m not convinced’

    Count the votes and watch the trends. It’s not difficult when we have gone from no nationalist MP’s to almost 50%. In fact when Gerry Kelly wins N. Belfast it will be 50%.

    Or to take another measure count the relative numbers of local councils each community will control after the new boundaries are set up.

    That comes from the selfdefeating attitude the unionist community has adopted. If one calls Britain ‘the mainland’ then that’s where one’s brightest and best will go.

    Adams had to lead his community from ‘not a bullet, not an ounce’ to backing the end of the IRA and now the DUP have to somehow persuade their people that our days on the fringes of the UK are almost over.

    The recent election in the South have reassured unionists that a reunited Ireland will be a prosperous entity led by a populist rightwing coalition in which they could well have an important role.

    It will happen gradually and we could well see our East-West links, especially with the Scots, also increase.

    The future certainly won’t be either what I want i.e. a 1960’s type socialism nor what I fear most – a hardline Catholic one. Everybody will have to compromise and unionists will have to come to terms with the end of the British Empire. It’s as dead as the shipyards and the ropeworks.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Maybe time for a new sig though!

    :o)

  • Cruimh

    “Count the votes and watch the trends.”

    The trends ?

    “Support for remaining in the UK is nearly unanimous among Protestants (85%) and commands the support of 22% of Catholics, of whom just over half (56%) favour Irish unity.”
    http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/poll-shows-strong-majority-favour-union-with-britain/

    Unionism may be in trouble – though it hasn’t just been kicked in the teeth big time like Ipod’s bunch –

    http://bp1.blogger.com/_D5EWDtQIQm8/RnubevtKhXI/AAAAAAAAAGk/8Czv7TMalgA/s1600-h/shinnerscream.jpg

    (link from Mickhall’s excellent blog )

    no big deal, Unionist political parties and politicians are a useless bunch anyway – but what matters is that the union is as strong as ever.

  • Sean

    22% is commanding? lol crumb you a funny man

  • Cruimh

    “Unionist political parties and politicians are a useless bunch anyway”

    Mind you – the alternatives aren’t any better – from the ridiculous APNI, the schizo SDLP, the sinister Shinners – and dear God, look at the crew over the border – they just returned the Savundra of European politics because there really was nothing better on offer 😉

    A benevlent dictatorship never looked more appealing! Put Gonzo in charge!

  • Cruimh

    “22% is commanding?”

    If they are looking for 50% plus one, damn right!

  • Sean

    LOL do you really believe that everyone actually answers any survey in northern Ireland truthfully especially in the nationalist community where they have been targetted for their answers lol crumbly

    and especially would any proddy feel safe answering that they werent unionists? lol bumblie

  • lib2016

    Cruimh,

    Reunification of the economies and the actual fact of political unity will be a reality relatively soon. As for when a referendum takes place? Gawd alone knows.

    Britain never recognised the Republic legally and in fact still claimed jurisdiction over all of Ireland until the 1920 Act was repealed less than ten years ago. So what?

    We’re dealing with a country in which the government is being investigated for selling Imperial honours, for an empire which no longer exists. Ruritania isn’t in it and the referendum never meant anything to anybody but the UUP. Guess what happened to them?

  • Cruimh

    How about we put it to a test and have a referendum ? Pound to a penny nationalists would find an excuse to boycott it again !

    The electorate is circa 1,100,000

    The default position is the Union

    To change that there would have to be over 500,000
    voting for a United Ireland.

    Combined SDLP and SF vote ? Runs at about 60% of that.

  • Cruimh

    “We’re dealing with a country in which the government is being investigated for selling Imperial honours, for an empire which no longer exists.”

    You wrote that with a straight face in the light of who was just elected across the border Lib ?

    “Reunification of the economies”

    The Euro ? 😉

    “and the actual fact of political unity will be a reality relatively soon.”

    Political “Unity” will only come about if and when the ROI and the UK both concede what is left of their sovereignty to the European state. That’s fine by me – especially as the regional centre for our archipelago will be London.

  • lib2016

    Cruimh,

    You still haven’t got it. The North-South bodies will build a single economy on this island – that’s what they’re for. After that everything follows smoothly.

    The legislation is already in place to allow those bodies to take over the government of Ireland believe it or not. Andrews, who was Irish Foreign Minister during the GFA negotiations spelt it out at the time if you want to do a bit of googling.

    You don’t really think anyone was going to trust the NI electorate to act sensibly, do you?

    BTW The unionist bloc vote has fallen below 50% at the last few elections but I’m too nice a guy to bring that up. :-0

    Time for tea. Thanx 4 the craic.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    A benevlent dictatorship never looked more appealing! Put Gonzo in charge!

    What an excellent idea. Remember, Slugger is not a democracy.

    Bwahahahaha!

  • Cruimh

    It’s always a pleasure lib 🙂

    You have your tea early!

  • Cruimh

    “Remember, Slugger is not a democracy.

    Bwahahahaha!”

    You’ll never have a better time to launch the putsch Gonzo! Forward to victory!

  • Sean

    How about we put it to a test and have a referendum ? Pound to a penny nationalists would find an excuse to boycott it again !

    The electorate is circa 1,100,000

    The default position is the Union

    To change that there would have to be over 500,000
    voting for a United Ireland.

    Combined SDLP and SF vote ? Runs at about 60% of that.

    Posted by Cruimh on Jun 30, 2007 @ 05:22 PM

    LOL crumbly thats pure and simple bollocks and you know it

    it only requires that 50% + 1 of the ACTUAL number of people VOTING not 50% of the population.

    And how many of those you project as being pro-unionist may vote by simply staying home is any ones guess? Add tho that your COMMANDING 22% vote by staying home as well we won’t know till the referendum is actually held.

    As for when the referendum is to be, I don’t know what do the laws say

  • Cruimh

    “it only requires that 50% + 1 of the ACTUAL number of people VOTING not 50% of the population. ”

    At the last referendum over 590,000 voters voted for the union. Turnout would be very, very high.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/9/newsid_2516000/2516477.stm

    And as every report I have read has susggested that nationalist turnout at elections is higher than unionist turnout there isn’t a hope in hell of nationalists breaking 500,000 mark.

  • Sean

    more baseless projections crumbley lol

    fancy baseless projections passed off as facts

    CAUSE you know the circumstances have really really changed since the last referewndum lol

    I wouldnt even begin to guess what the results would be but I will say they won’t make you happy apple crumble

  • PeaceandJustice

    lib2016 – “There have been sectarian incidents in the South but the spokemen for the COI are very clear that it was not the norm and has now ceased. The Protestant population are overwhelmingly republican and proud to be Irish.”

    The Protestants I know in Eire tell a different story. They were forced to accept Eire and all its trappings – they didn’t have the choice to keep Unionism alive. Anyone flying the British flag were targets. Look at what happened to Protestants in Cork. Murder and ethnic cleansing. And in more recent times, Protestants in Eire along the border couldn’t fly the British flag. Even though across the border in Northern Ireland, Republicans were flying the Irish tricolour.

    It might be very convenient for Pan-Nationalists to air-brush out of history the bigotry and discrimination against Protestants in Eire. It suits their agenda. But the bigotry and discrimination needs to be exposed.

    As regards the situation in Northern Ireland, lib2016 needs to accept that the political settlement puts us firmly within the United Kingdom with sensible cross-border co-operation on areas of mutual interest. Any attempt to change that like lib2016 suggests would drag us back to a conflict situation. I trust lib2016 doesn’t want that. Therefore, he needs to get real and accept the reality – Northern Ireland is British and that’s the will of the greater number of people.

  • Frank Sinistra

    P&J,

    This is all very interesting and completely irrelevant.

    Since you have been demanding answers of many others, I’ll ask you direct questions:

    Regardless of all your deflection, do you think this illegal parade was wrong? If not why not? If you do, what should be done about the organiser and participants?

    Easy questions, on topic and relevant.

    I await your responses. And of course you will respond as you demand response from others and wouldn’t want to be a hypocrite.

    Thanks, FrankS.

    (I’ll check back for your reply after Dr Who, it’s much more important)

  • Cruimh

    Deal with the points I made Sean – there would be a far higher turnout from the unionist community than we see at elections – and the unionist community already outpolls the nationalist community.

  • Cruimh

    Dr Who has got FAR too girlie Frank.

  • Sean

    i did deal with your points apple crumble the fact you dont like my answers says more about you than me

  • PeaceandJustice

    Frank Sinistra – “do you think this illegal parade was wrong? If not why not? If you do, what should be done about the organiser and participants?”

    All parades should apply for the correct permissions – even though the parades commission is a joke. The matter should now be left with the police instead of people on here making sectarian judgments on individuals that could have legal consequences.

    Now a nice easy question for you – on topic and relevant. Do you think illegal parades by Republicans are wrong? If not, why not? If you do, what should be done about the organisers and participants?

  • Frank Sinistra

    Of course I do but I’m not the one equivocating, diluting and distracting from the issues.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Frank Sinistra – “I’m not the one equivocating, diluting and distracting from the issues.”

    Pan-Nationalist definition of any comments from Unionists: equivocating, diluting and distracting from the issues.

    Pan-Nationalist definition of comments from one of their own: Rational debate taking into account the wider context.

    When Pan-Nationalists on Slugger stop being sectarian bigots, then we can have proper debates.

  • I wonder…

    PandJ

    As I said before, I can only laugh at being classed, as someone who utterly opposes your *perspective* as a *Pan-nationalist.* To consistently identify all members of a wider group, as you do, with the characteristsics of a sub-group is..wait..the adjective will come to me. I’m sure it begins with a *b* Then to whine about how you’re treated when you reosrt to abusing other posters: theres a website where you’ll feel well at home. Im sure another poster will advise you of the wwww.

    Oranges FS
    Im sorry for delaying in coming back to you. I did not intend to upset you or anyone else through linking to an article about the late Marty O’Hagan, who I myself knew through his time with Fortnight. I was making the point that what is *out there* as regards Mr Harbinson, identifies him, as someone else did later in this thread, with all that is undesirable about the OO.

    I myself have absolutely no objection to peaceful parading, providing that it takes place after consultation with all directly affected. Having as recently as yesterday driven down Gravaghy Road and seen a community at peace and lazing in the sunshine of a NI summer Saturday, I would like to see an honourable settlement there sooner rather than later – for all concerned.

  • gareth mccord

    WHAT A “SPECIAL” GUY!!
    Mr harbinson would find it very hard to explain why in a current court case the police will not reveal full disclosure on files relating to mr harbinson getting arrested with my father??
    My father has brought the police to court but mr harbinson didnt ?? I think the saying is “DOES SOMEONE SMELL A RAT”!!
    Or could mr harbinson explain why when in a meeting in an orange hall with some senior dup members it got raided and he escaped? But left his finger prints behind in a secret stash of weapons but no charges followed?? hmmm i wonder eh sherlock?

  • twin

    harbinson is a tout..fullstop!! my brother and i where arrested n charged with having a weapon i got from him that also came from the orange hall..hes a wanna be loyalist..Mr.Mccord was that when he got lifted in the grave yard with your father?? if so it stinks !!dont trust big mark.

  • gareth mccord

    The spooks sent mr harbinson to my fathers house saying he wants to help kill haddock and his gang?
    How stupid and embarrassing of mr harbinson and the government if they thought my father would be so gullable hence the current court case of wrongful arrest and imprisonment.
    Mr harbinson is still on the books recieving money from special branch!!
    What a LOYALIST:-(

  • vic

    mr Harbinson seems to have all the attributes for a 21st century orangeman.