Sinn Fein’s unionist outreach officer replaced…

ACCORDING to a News Letter report, Martina Anderson is no longer Sinn Fein’s director of unionist outreach, just over a week after the party launched its charter for unionist engagement. Let’s hope Eamonn Scott is a bit more successful in the position, as the previous incumbent seemed to have no intention to engage with unionists on any meaningful level, IMHO (unlike plenty of other republicans I’ve met here and in real life).

  • Joost

    Eamonn Scott will only be successful if he engages with unionists on their own terms; that is, as unionists and not as misplaced nationalists who the shinners expect to wake up someday from some slumber and realise they were misguided all along.

  • Cruimh

    Who is Eamonn Scott ? Couldn’t find him on the SF website or with google.

  • wonderwall

    To Cruimh

    Maybe Eammon Scott is an allias for a certain P O’Neill. It’s a pity SF replaced Martina Anderson she was doing a good PR job off making an azz-hole of herself. Sinn Fein reach out to no one other than themselves. It’s about time SF cut out the kidology and stopped coning people.

  • Yokel

    Wouldnt be the Eamon Scott up Lagmore would he?

  • Turgon

    Wonderall. I am not sure whether or not Anderson did a bad job on in Shinner terms. She raised her profile helping get a younger SF type noticed. At the same time she antagonised unionists in a rather clever manner allowing SF to pretend that they were being reasonable whilst, as they well knew, being unreasonable and biggoted. This allowed her to be both a heroine and martyr simultaneously and annoying Prods during the marching season.

    She could just be thick or so biggoted she has no concept how unionists think. Alternatively she could be very clever and biggoted.

    No doubt someone will come on soon and tell us she could be sincere and clever but then again David Icke could be right and the world could be ruled by 12 foot tall blood drinking lizard aliens. Are those aliens Prods?

  • Glensman

    I think a lot of the criticism towards Martina Anderson has been misplaced- im not sayin she did the greatest job ever, but it wouldn’t be a job i would apply for!

    Noone on the site seems to question why unionists aren’t even attempting to reach out to Republicans?

    At least SF are trying, this is not part of some cynical master plan!

  • Suilven

    ‘Unionist outreach’ only made sense for SF in the expectation of holding the balance of power in RoI – cue it now being kicked into the long grass, with almost as much force as the boot to the baws the southern electorate gave them.

  • Cruimh

    “At least SF are trying”

    But ARE they or is it a cynical PR exercise ?

  • andy

    Evidence they are trying: errrr – they have an outreach officer and programme! (hardly overwhelming evidence – but evidence nontheless)

    Evidence they aren’t – (some)Unionists fear built up over the past 30/80/x-hundred. Fair enough in part but each community could use their historic experiences from preventing in engaging with the other – but where would that get us?

    The fact Martina had a more “militant” background, is, I think, a bit of a red herring. I don’t think that the people who were so strongly agin’ her would have changed their tune if she had no convictions.

    My twopence worth.

  • kensei

    “Unionist outreach”, is a long term thing that requires a lot of on the ground work and will probably some movement on the part of SF. Things they are good enough at, if they are really serious about it.

    Someone with a low profile is a much better option. Martina quickly became more of a hate figure than MMG, if this site is anything to go by and that is counter productive. Didn’t always help herself, granted, but the reaction was extreme. Besides is Eamonn an ex-prisoner? If not, isn’t that what Unionists said they preferred?

  • andy

    that should say 30/80 x-hundred YEARS

  • seanzmct

    There has been a good deal of previous on this issue. So far much of party political unionism has found SF’s outreach campaign a patronising and insulting charade. Thirty five years too late.

    But, as an afterthough, I was just wondering how SF’s latest outreacher will outreach to non-party
    political people who are pro-union, including the sizeable number of Catholics who fall into that category.

    What we really need is a robust third way of the left which would outreach to the sectarian communalists of every stripe.

  • james

    Turgon. I have to agree with you, but isn’t that the way the ‘shinners’ operate by making a controversial statement and walking away. This is just like the on-the-runs which they nearly got away with only for the public outcry. The ‘shinners’ should learn to crawl before they walk. For example deal with bread and butter issues and build peoples confidence. Once these issues have been dealt with maybe SF might get their contreversial issues dealt with. To use this as reaching out to unionists is beyond belief. Sinn Fein have yet to address the issues for Victims of The Troubles. Have you heard them call for this? That is a contreversial issue you won’t hear SF calling for for some reason.

  • Glensman

    I think this is another instance of a useful thread drifting towards talking about victims instead of the issue.

    I agree with Kensei, perhaps a lower profile person in this position will be of some help. I still feel outreach is an important part of SF’s work. After all, we have more in common than what seperates us. (if we don’t rake the coals of history, over, and over, and over)

  • Good luck to Martina in the future, it was always a poisoned chalice. The problem with the GFA as things now stand, is it acts like a giant continental quilt which covers all public differences and hatreds. Thus we continuously get the SF and DUP leaders such as Paisley and MnG grinning like demented bunny rabbits in front of the media because the Peace Process demands it.

    Whilst further down the food change nothing much has changed. All the old prejudices are still in place and I fear unless there is a clearing of the stables via some sort of T@RC these will continue to fester and re-exert themselves on the streets at some time in the future.

    Peace and reconciliation takes more than a photo opportunity and that is the level it is at today. If anything Sectarianism is the glue of the current Stormont political system with each party overseeing their own sectarian thiefdom.

    If attitudes are not changing at the top of the political heap, and in truth they are not, how can the seep down into the two communities?

  • redbull

    To Glensman

    I don’t understand you when you say its turning towards Victims. Remember that those who’s records SF want cleared caused 90% of the human carnage. I would say that Victims are a very important part of the equation.
    If you believe that having paramiliteries records cleared is reaching out to unionists or anyone else you need your head examined. This is only a ploy, as SF reach out to no one. SF motto ‘By ourselves Alone’ That doesn’t sound like reaching out.

  • Mick Fealty

    What I find remarkable is the haste with which it seems to have been done. From what I understand she was gone from the post by Tuesday at least, but SF were still not saying who the replacement was.

  • The Penguin

    “…if we don’t rake the coals of history, over, and over, and over.”

    And therein lies one of the major problems. SF feel only they and “their” community should be allowed to rake constantly over the coals of history. Gregory Campbell, who I have very little time for, is lambasted as a dinosaur for referring to what unionists have suffered at the hands of republicans. This by the very same people who whinge constantly about collusion, what they have suffered and the need for endless inquiries into parts of the past.
    In the SF version of outreach, Unionists (it’s Protestants they actually mean) are meant to just forget, move on and build a new shared future. But a future that bears a remarkable resemblance to how SF would like things to be and one built on only their “historical analysis”.

  • Cruimh

    I wonder if she is unwell ? I didn’t think she looked well when she was on TV with Gregory Campbell.

  • Glensman

    To start with Sinn Féin means ‘We Ourselves’ representing the fact that Ireland should be able to stand on her own 2 feet. Commonly mis-interpreted as all non-Irish being chucked out.

    And my point was RedBull, that if we get stuck in the past about everything we try to do we’ll get nowhere. SF are trying to outreach, we’ve seen this on the ground for a long time. Just now there is a department making it party policy.

    Im not trying to forget or erase the past, im just saying people shouldn’t use it as an excuse to inhibit movement.

    The strange thing is that working class loyalists seem to move on this easier than middle-class unionists, I would use David Ervine and his PUP colleagues as an example.

  • Glensman

    The Penguin,

    I find a major flaw in your analysis. In that, we know what hand the IRA had in the troubles and to a large extent we know the hand that loyalists had in the conflict. The problem is that state murder is a completely different category as noone is or has served time or been marked out for their crimes.

    Im talking about outreach between two communities, inquiries into collusion are seperate to that for obvious reasons.

  • Cruimh

    Glensman – that Ervine was himself a terrorist might explain his attitude.

  • Cruimh

    Glensman – the two community model doesn’t work here. We effectively have 4 main communities , physical force ( republican and loyalist ) and
    cnstitutional ( nationalist and unionist).

  • the Emerald Pimpernel

    Redbull
    I don’t understand you when you say its turning towards Victims. Remember that those who’s records SF want cleared caused 90% of the human carnage. I would say that Victims are a very important part of the equation.

    Thats lies Redbull

  • Glensman

    Cruimh,

    I never thought of it before, it’s nice to have stimulation on a friday!

    I suppose oyu could say that there are 3? SF are solely committed to constitutional Nationalism/Republicanism and the SDLP have almost been wiped off the board…

    Your point of loyalism/unionism rings true- but i expect to see movement on this soon enough…

  • Cruimh

    Glensman – I’ll bet Gerry would have given his right nut to have been as “almost been wiped off the board” on May 24th 🙂

    Are SF “solely committed to constitutional Nationalism/Republicanism” – I’m not convinced.
    We should remember that, when they talk of finding a political solution, for them the bombings and shootings were political acts.

  • redbull

    Emerald Pimpernel

    What are you saying. I don’t understand why you copiedand pasted my post. What part of the post was LIES?

    =================
    I don’t understand you when you say its turning towards Victims. Remember that those who’s records SF want cleared caused 90% of the human carnage. I would say that Victims are a very important part of the equation.

    Thats lies Redbull

    Posted by the Emerald Pimpernel on Jun 08, 2007 @ 12:28 PM

  • darth rumsfeld

    But we still haven’t been told the true indicator of Mr Scott’s validity- Is his da a prod too?

  • CTN

    Agree with MF-the haste is incredible, as in yesterday’s Irish Tims she is cited for being absent from the Policing Board meeting because she was in Messines, Belgium at a cross-community WW1 commemoration….

    Is this definite?

  • Cruimh

    redbull – my guess would be that he has misunderstood this part

    ” those who’s records SF want cleared caused 90% of the human carnage. ”

    as being a claim by you that SF/IRA caused 90% of the human carnage.

  • John East Belfast

    seanzmct

    “But, as an afterthough, I was just wondering how SF’s latest outreacher will outreach to non-party
    political people who are pro-union, including the sizeable number of Catholics who fall into that category.”

    I thought that was exactly who they were reaching out to ?

    ie trying to convert Unionists to Republicans/Nationalists – in a democracy nothing wrong with that.

    Why on earth would they ‘reach out’ to Unionist Political Parties – we are foes at the opposite end of the spectrum.
    In any event there is ample opportunities in our PR and D’hondt political system for co-operation within many structures for ‘political’ unionism and nationalism.

    However it is patronising – ie you dont hear of the Conservative Outreach programme to Labour supporters or the FF one to FG.

    Parties win votes by force of their argument and mature people can make their minds up – such citisens do not value being outreached to as if they are sinners needing conversion.

    Apart from SF being the wrong Party doing this anyway the whole concept appears to be Half Baked.

    For instance nowhere in that Charter can I see what the overall objective of the initiative is ?

  • Garibaldy

    Presumably she was moved so she can raise her profile to stand in Foyle at the next election. She has been used increasingly as a spokesperson on all fronts, making it easier for the unionists to drag up statements to question her sincerity. What is also of importance here is the downgrading of the post – from an MLA to someone very few people have ever heard of. Given the joke that was the charter, it seems it was all a big, and now being abandoned, gimmick.

  • Glensman

    Cruimh,

    I realise that you and others aren’t entirely convinced, I realise that Unionist outreach may not have been handled all that well by the party. But it is being pushed internally as a core Dep. and isn’t just a gimmick as Garibaldy suggested.

  • The Penguin

    Glensman

    The major hole in your point is that SF are highly selective in their calls for inquiry. Why no full scale public inquiries into instances of state sponsorship of violence by the ROI and republican collusion with agents of both states. Also, if your point is to have validity then we have an equal right to know the full unabridged history of those who are now running this state.

  • Cruimh

    Glensman – I think that there is more going on behind the scenes than we realise. One running sore that SF can address to show good faith is their “parades and concerned residents” strategy.
    They couldn’t do it publicly – that would be too humiliating, but it’s surely significant that Brendan MacCionnaith has “resigned” from Sinn Féin ?

  • scotty

    Sinn Fein has not done very much OUTREACH to the Victims / Survivers of the republicans 35 year war. Maybe Martina Anderson should have started there.

  • BogExile

    ‘Good luck to Martina in the future, it was always a poisoned chalice…’

    Almost right Mickhall except she was the poisoned chalice.

    It’s very interesting (and, yes, extremely gratifying) to see Sinn Fein’s recent wobbles. They seem to have lost the intellectual capacity along with the long-lost moral capacity to engage with Unionism.

    But clearly Martina’s appointment means the SF ‘Head Games’ unit may have to be decommissioned as the strategy to piss unionists off but claim the high-graound has rather aptly blown up in their faces.

    The tragedy of this is that if only Mr 6 per cent and co would stop their pureile constitutional hissy-fit, nationalism could probably persuade us Golf-Club supremacists to throw in their lot with them in 10 years. How’s that for engagement!

  • Turgon

    I think the whole SF strategy here is quite complex if a bit predicatble as has been mentioned by several others.

    Anderson’s profile has been sucessfully raised and unsionist attacks on her can be presented as her trying to be “reasonable” and being rebuffed. The criminal records stuff strengthens unionist hatred of her helping the supposed “reasonableness” and also helps her with the ultra hardline.

    Then part two of the strategy. The new unionist outreach person is lowewr profile. He may well even say they made mistakes in outreach part 1. This will be so “reasonable” that unionists rejecting it can be painted as even more biggoted helping SF and of course our friend Martina. Also some foolish unionists may try to engage because they feel that the Shinners have made a “concession” by removing Anderson. This could then split what has been pretty universal unionist opposition to the “outreach”. Then the rejectionist unionists can be painted as even worse biggots. All quite clever.

    The only sensible outreach would of course start with an absolutely unequivocal sorry with no ifs buts or maybes. I guess that might after a very long time and a lot of repeating persuade some people. But if the Shinners were by chance serious that would be the way to start.

  • The Penguin

    Turgon

    You give them too much credit. Their electoral ceiling in the Republic is far lower than they believed. No gov. posts or even influence for at the least the next 5 years. Their “outreach” was about fitting the Prods into an all-Ireland dispensation not about simply improving relationships in the north. They imagined they could accelerate that being in power on both sides of the border. Now they know they can’t, so the project has been as good as dumped.

  • Maud’s gone

    Scotty,
    when have those who see themselves as British ever made any attempt to outreach to the victims of the 800 year war they inflicted on all the people of this island?

  • Yokel

    Penguin

    SF will always have an electoral ceiling in the South and its that of a small grouping but if anyone thinks this last election is it they are wrong. If the economy starts going downward then they will grow again.

    15. Check out the quality of council housing in many areas of Belfast…..don’t think I’m kidding

    I’ll ask again is this the Eamonn Scott up in Lagmore we are talking about?

  • The Penguin

    “SF will always have an electoral ceiling in the South and its that of a small grouping but if anyone thinks this last election is it they are wrong.”

    Hence me saying:”No gov. posts or even influence for at least the next 5 years.”

    “For at least” is to indicate that I don’t believe that the present situation will necessarily exist for all time.

  • CTN

    No confirmation of this change on teletext or in news announcements……..

  • reach out…I’ll be there…to love and comfort yo

    Has anyone found any info on this Eamonn Scott guy on-line?

  • kensei

    Turgon

    I really wish SF were a third as Machiavellian-y brilliant as Unionists think they are. We’d have had a UI years ago.

    JEB

    “Apart from SF being the wrong Party doing this anyway the whole concept appears to be Half Baked.”

    No, SF are precisely the right party. Whether or not they are capable is another matter. In terms of half baked, this will be a slow process. Reaching out and attempting to sell an idea at the same time is a difficult thing to do. It’ll take time for them to find the right approach, and it’ll take time to see how serious they are about it.

  • sugar pie honey bunch

    Now if you feel that you can’t go on
    Because all your hope is gone
    And your life is filled with confusion
    And happiness is just an illusion
    And your world around is tumbling down
    Darling, reach out
    Reach out, for Eamonn!

    He’ll be there to love and comfort you… (tell me baby)
    He’ll be there with the love that’ll see you through

    Now when you’re lost and about to give up
    Cause your best just ain’t good enough
    And you feel the world has grown cold (cos Unionists don’t matter)
    And you’re driftin’ on your own
    When you need a hand to hold
    Proddies, reach out!
    Reach out, for Eamonn!

    He’ll be there to love and comfort you
    He’ll be there with the love He’ll see you through

    He’ll be there to love and comfort you
    He’ll be there to with the love He’ll see you through

    I can tell you the way I hang your head (what does this line mean?)
    Now with out of love, now you’re afraid (someone couldn’t hear the words)
    And through your tears you look around
    But there’s no peace of mind to be found

    I know what you’re thinking
    Without love, now you’re alone
    Proddies, reach out!
    Reach out for Eamonn!

    He’ll be there to love and comfort you
    He’ll be there with the love He’ll see you through

    He’ll be there to love and comfort you
    Tell me baby
    He’ll be there to always see you through
    He’ll be there

    He’ll be there to love and comfort you
    He’ll be there with the love He’ll see you through.

    Reach out for Eamonn!

  • scotty

    Maud’s gone
    =============

    My my how you have moved forward. Going 800 years back. If you read my post I said during the republicans 35 year war 1969 – 2004. Republicans killed 3000 odd people and maimed thousands of others. Republicans killed more RC’s than the police/army and loyalists did put together. Check the CAIN website

  • how can I forgive myself?

    Being of mixed presbyterian and roman catholic stock, descended from people who invaded Ireland by rowing across from Scotland in the seventeenth century and people who invaded England by catching the boat from Belfast in the nineteenth century, but sporting a British passport so clearly culpable, I acknowledge and apologise deeply and sincerely for the hurt caused by the Norman Strongbow through his interference by invitation in the fuedal fallouts of Irish kings in the twelfth/thirteenth century.

  • scotty

    Mauds gone
    ============

    Where have you gone Mauds?

  • Slashdotter

    In Soviet Russia Unionist replace SinnFein outreah officer

  • Prince Eoghan

    It would not matter to some Unionists what SF or any other party representing Nationalism does. That is very clear from those who post here. Of course it is all a devious plan to sell yous down the river, to prize you from your birthright, to bring you into Erin’s Fenian valley’s blah, blah………

    Some people need to grow up, after a long conflict where distrust and hatred are the normal staples of society. Someone has to do something to extend the hand of friendship….this is all that is being done, an idea to develop different ways of association etc…. No conspiracy, nothing special. Wouldn’t it be great if Unionism could do something, anything at all to steer people away from entrenchment!

    It seems to some mud-slinging and keeping the comforts of hatred are more important than moving on and developing healthy relationships.

  • whitesmoke

    Just lQQk at what happened to SF leading light, mouth piece Mary Lou McDonald,a the same could happen to Ms Anderson the next time around.

  • slug

    Someone at the top of this thread thought the unionist outreach idea was clever because it annoyed unionists.

    Er, sorry. Not met any unionist annoyed about it. In fact, it just seems a bit silly (given that its obviously insincere).

  • Turgon

    Prince Eoghan – Of course we don’t trust the Shinners what on earth do you expect, however, as I said before if by any remote chance they were serious “The only sensible outreach would of course start with an absolutely unequivocal sorry with no ifs buts or maybes. I guess that might after a very long time and a lot of repeating persuade some people”. I will not be holding my breath.

    Kensei Yes I regard them as extremely devious and clever. I believe it takes quite a lot of cleverness to make bombs etc. they seemed quite good at that.

  • Factual

    A brief bio of Eamonn Scott would be useful if anyone could provide it.

    The choice of Martina Anderson as frontwoman was one of the reasons why unionists were so cynical about the outreach programme. Someone like Alex Maskey would have made far more sense. However they picked Anderson to raise her profile and that shows how sincere they were about it. They saw potential in her as a future challenger in Foyle to oust Durkan so they shipped McLaughlin off so she was the main shinner and made up a post that would grab headlines to raise her profile. It has worked perfectly thus far, she has gone from being a nobody to and Assembly member and will no doubt be further promoted.

    Sinn Fein are that simple and effective.

  • Cruimh

    “It has worked perfectly thus far, she has gone from being a nobody to and Assembly member and will no doubt be further promoted.”

    Promoted to shadow wee Jeffrey ? 😉

  • Factual

    Mock away but the SDLP in Derry cannot afford to rest on their laurels. She is a threat and Durkan should regard the canvassing period as all the time if he is wise.

  • Cruimh

    Oh I agree – the SDLP have to watch their back in Derry. SF must be able to find a decent candidate to take them on. But will it be Martina?

  • scotty tells us:

    [i]”If you read my post I said during the republicans 35 year war 1969 – 2004. Republicans killed 3000 odd people and maimed thousands of others. Republicans killed more RC’s than the police/army and loyalists did put together. Check the CAIN website “[/i]

    Now, I don’t know where scotty got his numbers but a check of the CAIN website — as he suggests — tells a very different story, I’m afraid.

    First, he tells us that Republicans killed “3000 odd people”. The CAIN summary shows that all Rebpublican groups combined killed 2,056 people.

    Scotty tells us “Republicans killed more RC’s than the police/army and loyalists did put together.” A check on the CAIN website clearly shows that the security forces killed 303 Catholics and loyalist groups killed 730. Combining the numbers gives 1,033 people all told. All republican groups combined killed 446 Catholics.

    Seems that scotty got tyhe figures mixed up, to say the least.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Only 446? You must be so proud.

  • Turgon

    Ah the return of the single transferrable post from that doyen of statistics Mr. Bob McGowan. Actually in view of the intelluctual and academic rigor of his insights I am sure it is actually Dr Bob McGowan D.Lit.

    I asked this before and Dr. McGowan felt my thirst for his wisdom was insufficiently important to respond to so I have copied and pasted these requests again in the humble, desperate hope that Dr. McGowan can enlighten my simple dark uneducated Prod mind.

    Maybe he could explain what circumstances he judges a death a “murder” and not a “murder”.

    Were those killed at Enniskillen on Rememberance Sunday or the Shankill Fish shop “murdered” or do their deaths not count.

    What about the relatives of police officers murdered along thier spouses etc.

    Were retired police officers who were killed “murdered” or were they fair game in Bob’s little world.

    How about off duty police officers or part time UDR men doing their civilian jobs were they “murdered”.

    How about police men directing traffic and other tasks Bob feels are part of the Brit Prod conspiracy.

    What about those killed at the Drop Inn Well both soldiers and non soldiers which if any reach the status of “murdered” in Bob’s world view.

    Or the police officers killed in GB by the IRA were they combatants or “murdered”.

    The Australian tourists in Germany what about them.

    Were all IRA “volunteers” killed by the army murdered, what if they attacked an off duty UDR man and were killed by him were they “murdered”.

    If Bob wishes to continue to post essentially the same theory repeatedly I think he owes it to all of us to explain the methodology behind his “facts”.

  • BOM

    Martina will never be a challenge to the SDLP in Derry – be it Mark Durkan or anyone else

    She has not got the capability to be an MP – she is useless on tv being interviewed and is simply a pretty picture for SF!! Their choice is limited!!

    Glensman – the SDLP wiped off the board?? Pardon??

    They have held their own in recent years but can I ask does that mean that SF have been wiped off the board in the South?? Or was this part of their masterplan to take over Ireland!!!

    Proud to be Irish and non SF voter!!

    PS One thing I will say though is that the shinners are damn good at promoting a good variety of people within their party – they must simply be trying to promote this other fella as Martina has had plenty of publicity through her outreach (?) and being on the Policing Board etc.

  • Sarah

    Only 446?

    Yep, it is less than 1 033.

  • whoiseamonnscott

    And still no one seems to know anything bout Eamonn Scott?

  • Cruimh

    even more interesting – no confirmation that the Newsletter report is true. Nothing on the SF newsroom.

  • CTN

    Nothing anywhere Cru- like I said yesterday she is in Belgium at a cross community WW1 ceremony, I think this story may be erroneous….

  • Cruimh

    Mark Durkan will be so relieved 😉

  • CTN

    He will be if it is confirmed that Eddie McGrady is to run in South Down- this is the subject of another thread and like this one also there is no confirmation from an official source- makes ya wonder what all the speculation is about…

  • info

    afaik Eamonn is an ex-prisoner, chair of the Lagmore SF cumann and works in Sevastopol St as one of SF’s backroom bods. He is well known in the Lagmore area and came across as a decent guy any time I met him.

  • Mr Wilson

    Martina Anderson

    love the sinner and not the sin as Sam Hanna would say.

  • Mauds Gone

    Turgon,
    If I may be so bold, I’d like to attempt to answer your question on whether a killing is a murder. In the interest of answering the question and not veering from the point, I’ll answer it with as little sentiment as possible.

    In my opinion, if one is engaged in a war, and a soldier or similar representative (i.e. an agent of the enemy, e.g officer of a militarised police force) of the enemy is killed, this is not murder, but an act of war. When a civilian who may or may not be supportive of either side of the conflict is killed, they are a casualty of war. When a state supported force (police/army) kill one who they recognise as a soldier, this is an act of war. When a state supported force (police/army) kill one they don’t believe to be a soldier, it is state sponsered murder.

    Hope this clears up any confusion for you Turgon.