Time for the Orange Order to back off?

Jim Gibney writes on the importance of gesture politics… and argues that it is time for the Orange Order to offer a few gestures of its own…

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  • Prince Eoghan

    >>It would help the situation if the Orange Order took a unilateral initiative and announced an end to contentious marches and marched only where it was welcome.<

  • againtthehead

    i think you’ll find there are hundreds if not thousands of ‘uncontentious’ parades.

    Personally I agree, that if there is a particular area they are not welcome, then they should ‘offer a few gestures’.

    Of course these gestures can be reciprocated.

  • DK

    Prince – even you must know that the overwhelming majority of parades are not contentious.

  • jaffa

    “It would help the situation if the Orange Order took a unilateral initiative and announced an end to contentious marches and marched only where it was welcome.”

    The question is, if this was the position of the Orange Order, would it then be welcome everywhere? Under what conditions/behaviours might it be?

    Just what were the people who drew up the tricolour expecting when they made it a third Orange?

    Anybody know when the Orange Order are going to test the water in Dublin again? I think they’ve finished the repaving of O’Connell St now.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Even me! moi! how dare you ;¬)

    >>contentious.<

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>Under what conditions/behaviours might it be?<

  • Philip

    Why should the OO offer any jesture?, it’s doesn’t have a problem with the parade, IRA/Sinn Fein do.

  • “Prince – even you must know that the overwhelming majority of parades are not contentious”.

    DK : Re your comment. Many parades still cause great offence even if violence does not break out or even if the route is not disputed or deemed to be “contentious”.

    For example : Each year when the massive Orange parade passes St Matthews Chapel on the Newtownards Road there are many acts of blatant provocation from both marchers and bandsmen. ( ie bands deliberately stopping outside the chapel and dancing around the road as they sing “We’re up to our necks in Fenian Blood” and shouting foul-mouthed abuse at parishoners.

    The fact that a lodge or two can parade peacefully through some sleepy hamlet in North Down or somewhere is totally irrelevant I’m afraid…

  • fair_deal

    “the IRA leadership took unilateral initiatives to break a particular logjam”

    Hmmm so months of meetings and negotiation in public and private usually culminating with the the government and RoI government promising SF things are “unilateral initiatives”.

    Voluntary re-routings etc have occured in the past with no identifiable changes either in improved community relations nor a reduction in nationalist hostility to parades. It is a postponement of the issue not a solution.

  • jaffa

    Nope. I’m just wondering what a tame Orangeman looks like or whether the Orange bit has nothing to do with Orangery and is just a bit of a catch all for prods (in which case I’m a bit offended..sniff).

    I don’t like ’em either very much. The drums make my tummy funny and I once saw a guy chase someone down the road with a pike when he had the temerity to try to cross the road before the March rolled past and it made me a bit annoyed.

    IMHO Orange Halls should all become scout troop and Ulster Scots dancing centres, open to all.

    One of the little Jaffas partakes of Irish jiggery is a taigy church hall and as far as I know it’s done no harm so far. Although, come to think of it I am scolded for calling them skipping lessons so the republican humour failure may be setting in.

  • againtthehead

    orange marches are a pretty hard one to call.

    As a prod from the country, I was used to watching parades go past with next to go trouble – just a day or evening out for a bit of craic with family and friends. Okay, in the larger towns, the bands tended to be more ‘colourful’ in their language and what they played, but generally things were moderate, good natured and often respectful.

    Couple of years ago, I watched the Belfast 12th going downt the Lisburn Rd and I was just horrified. Militaristic bands followed by scores of drunk idiots in rangers shirts, leaving rubbish and urine samples everywhere. Really shocked me and made me realise why not just nationalits find certain parades offensive.

    If the OO are going to continue to exist, they are in serious need of a drastic overhall. It’s getting to the stage were many unionists are turning their back on the organisation, particuarly in urban areas. There is a place for an OO in N.Ireland, but they really need to evolve and take some responsibility.

  • darth rumsfeld

    hmmm
    so the reduction of parades down the Garvaghy Road from 6 to 1, the reduction in numbers participating obviously doesn’t count as a unilateral initiative?

    Obviously not.

    The trouble is that parades are seen as a zero sum negotiation. Residents insist they must be asked for permission, and still they “might” refuse.Not a lot of incentive there really.

  • jaffa

    Perhaps we could ritualise the permission to march and its acceptance, Black Rod style.

    The March could walk up to the end of the road, stop….drum roll….residents association chief steps out….takes baton from batoneer….twirls away up the road…. band follows and is safely escorted through no longer hostile town and sent on to church. A mutual commitment to freedom and faith.

    Lovely.

    You should try these drugs I’m on.

  • George

    Darth,
    “so the reduction of parades down the Garvaghy Road from 6 to 1, the reduction in numbers participating obviously doesn’t count as a unilateral initiative.”

    If someone decides to slap me gently only once in the face instead of the usual six punches I would hardly say they are showing initiative.

    If however, they sat down and explained to me face to face that it wasn’t a slap at all and I was misunderstanding what they were doing all this time and that the bombs, rocks, shootings, rioting and associated British loyalist terrorist murder circus that was previously attached with previous “parades” was a thing of the past then things might be different.

    Oh wait a minute, they refuse to do that. They refuse to even show enough respect to talk to the residents face to face.

    Is it not the case that the residents don’t insist that they are asked for permission. They insist that negotiations take place with the possibility that anything could happen, including that a Parade doesn’t take place.

    What’s the point of negotiations if the Orange Order want guarantees that the parade will take place regardless?

    Obviously the Orange Order would prefer “negotiations” where they are guaranteed to get what they want – a parade down the Garvaghy Rd. Not much incentive for them to compromise if that is the case.

  • “Perhaps we could ritualise the permission to march and its acceptance, Black Rod style”.

    Hmmm. Interesting thought…

    I recall several years ago 2 orange lodges and several bands actually fighting each other in Shaftesbury Square with ceremonial swords while returning home from the 12th of July parade at Edenderry. Turned out, it was South Belfast UDA and UVF members clashing as part of some ongoing feud over drugs ‘rights’ in the area.

    Perhaps not the type of ceremonial ritual you had in mind though….

  • jaffa

    “What’s the point of negotiations if the Orange Order want guarantees that the parade will take place regardless?

    Obviously the Orange Order would prefer “negotiations” where they are guaranteed to get what they want – a parade down the Garvaghy Rd. Not much incentive for them to compromise if that is the case.”

    That’s pretty dumb George. They’re not asking for permission to walk along the road. They’re asking the locals under what circumsatances they would be happy with them walking down the road and they’re indicating that they’re willing to compromise with those wishes but not at the expense of surrendering their right to walk down roads altogether.

    Seems clear to me.

  • frank

    Lets get this straight, a large number of orange order/apprentice boys parades are basically huge paramilitary processions, with many bands associated with fully armed and active terrorist organisations.

    Lodges have no problems carrying bnners commemorating mass murderes like the shankill butchers and are happy to be associated with bands who are named after and commemorate murdered terrorists.

    The uvf & uff have no right to march through areas were they slaughtered the residents in the past.

  • jaffa

    “I recall several years ago 2 orange lodges and several bands actually fighting each other in Shaftesbury Square with ceremonial swords while returning home from the 12th of July parade at Edenderry.”

    Cool! Are they still ceremonial if you’re using them?

  • delta omega

    If the OO did make such a jesture and state that it would not march in contentious areas – how long do you think it would be before nationalists would ensure that every parade was classified as contentious thus preventing the order from marching at all. It was not so many years ago that catholics came out on the 12th of July and enjoyed the celebrations as much as their protestant neighbours, but this attitude was changed when the shinners started using parades as a political bargaining chip.

  • eranu

    ” argues that it is time for the Orange Order to offer a few gestures of its own… ”

    like what?? im tired of all these bitter types moaning about the OO in the papers, or all the nasty posts that these threads attract. they moan but dont say what they want.

    people who have a problem with OO parades should make a list of issues they have a problem with. give the list to the OO. then when all the issues are resolved properly they will have no problems with parades. thats the logical way to do things. once we all see your list then it will be obvious whos being reasonable and whos not.

    can any nationalist/republican/resident give a list of the issues they have with OO parades, and then say ‘if these issues are resolved i would have no problems with OO parades’. thats the crucial thing. can any of you say that? or are you all just anti prod no matter what changes they make?

    theres no mistaking what the OO have to do themselves. getting rid of paramilitary trappings, getting rid of sectarian abuse shouting, and generally making themselves look less like the dregs of the working class and more like nice people dressed up for a pleasant day out.

  • kensei

    “It was not so many years ago that catholics came out on the 12th of July and enjoyed the celebrations as much as their protestant neighbours, but this attitude was changed when the shinners started using parades as a political bargaining chip.”

    Yeah, we all loved it until those evil Shinners polluted our minds.

  • jaffa

    “enjoyed the celebrations as much as their protestant neighbours”

    their protestant whats? they had these then?

  • Bitter Orange

    Exactly what parades did the OO voluntarily reroute in Portadown? Those “voluntarily” rerouted parades were BANNED by the British government under Maggie Thatcher in the 1980’s from going through the Catholic Obins Street area. Even today the OO still apply to parade through Obins street.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Eranu.

    You ask for a list then proceed to give us one to be getting on with. Maybe you should take up that mantle of list maker-in-chief, or then again you might just read away and find out just what people have a problem with.

    It is laughable to state anyone is ‘anti-Prod’. Do the OO represent Protestantism?, indeed are you even suggesting that Prods themselves who criticise the OO are themselves’anti-Prod’?

    Gie’s peace!

    >>Yeah, we all loved it until those evil Shinners polluted our minds.<

  • jaffa

    Stop wriggling your highness. State your demands!

  • Cromwell

    Frank,

    Can you please explain to me which ‘Lodges have no problems carrying banners commemerating mass murderers like the Shankill butchers’?

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>Stop wriggling your highness. State your demands!<

  • jaffa

    Impossible to please, these aristocratic types.

  • Cromwell

    Its okay, cos he’ll be first against the wall….!

  • Prince Eoghan

    Cromwell.

    Before this relationship goes any further I must warn you that I am a pitcher and not, repeat not a catcher. So re the wall, after you ;¬)

    Jeezo already. I am a Prince NOT a Queen!

  • Cromwell

    If you wanna f* ck me you’d better be prepared to kiss me first!

  • jaffa

    warts & all?

  • Cromwell

    Whats that line in Full Metal Jacket,

    ” you’re the type of guy who’d f*ck someone up the ass & not even have the common coutesy to give ’em a reach around!”

  • Cromwell

    Thats courtesy by the way.

  • jaffa

    Homosexual on-line flirting between roundheads and royalists. Whatever next. I’m away home to fire up the BBQ.

  • Cromwell

    I know it often amazes me how quickly men lapse into this sort of thing.
    Have a lovely weekend Jaffa & Sweet Prince!

  • George

    Jaffa,
    They’re asking the locals under what circumsatances they would be happy with them walking down the road and they’re indicating that they’re willing to compromise with those wishes but not at the expense of surrendering their right to walk down roads altogether

    They haven’t asked the locals anything as they haven’t talked to them face to face – ever. They have asked others to ask the residents.

    They don’t have to surrender altogether any rights to walk down roads, nobody has said such a thing. I should also point out that they aren’t the arbiters of what said walking rights actually are and the sooner they accept this the better for all.

    This isn’t about surrender, it’s about respect.

    The Orange Order can’t sweep the orgy of violence and mayhem unleashed by their protests under the carpet and expect to get somewhere by continuing to refuse to talk to the very people who were on the receiving end of this mayhem for so many years.

    At the moment it seems the Orange Order are still of the opinion that their rights are paramount here rather than rights per se and the rights of the residents in particular.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>Sweet Prince< <*flutters eyelids*Y'all be like the flintstones and have 'a gay old time'>>roundheads and royalists.<

  • eranu

    prince, ive read a few things that people object to, and i stated a few things so that people wouldnt need to repeat them. if i could make the one and only list and then bang heads together on both sides to sort things out i would.
    the challenge to people like yourself that object to OO parades, is to come up with a complete list of things that need sorted. the logic being that once the objectionable things are removed then residents would not find the parade objectionable.

    can you say here and now on slugger that you would not have a problem with OO parades if the objectionable things were removed? in other words, if you were a resident, you wouldnt be bothered by a parade that had cleaned up its act.

    we all know that most of the moaners about OO parades dont have a list they want fixed, they just hate prods and want to attack/disrupt/ruin anything that prods want to do. thats what i meant by anti prod. anyone that wasnt motivated by sectarian hatred could list their problems, solve them, and get over it.
    prods that object to OO parades are just objecting to the scumbagery. you know, big janty with his enornous beer belly sticking out from under his football ‘tap’, trailing carryout ‘begs’, shouting ‘yeeeeooo’ into thin air becuase hes ‘blacked’ !

    the OO have an enormous challenge to drag their organisation out of the gutter. the first thing would be to recognise that people watch parades because they are nice to look at. nobody wants to see tattily dressed drunken yobs, thats the bottom line.

    the residents and assorted objectors need to figure out whether they are reasonable people that can sort out a list of problems and put them behind them. or if they are just hate filled bigots…

  • eranu

    “I demand that you stop referring to me as ‘your highness’

    I much prefer your lordship.”

    ‘its just your highness, your highness.’
    E Blackadder.

  • Prince Eoghan

    eranu

    It is much easier to point out where they should evolve to rather than what is wrong with it.

    I would support completely and without prevarication a pro-Prod organisation that IS Christian in ethos. One that doesn’t use Christianity to cloak an otherwise nakedly anti-Catholic agenda. One that is completely non-threatening, and certainly non-antagonistic of others that don’t hold their views.

    I would support the marching bands and lodges in their quest to parade anywhere within reason eg. busy town centres on Saturday afternoons, or any place that would interfere greatly with others pursuits. Same restrictions that you would find anywhere.

    Sadly I don’t think this kind of organisation would appeal to a rump of people (Loyalists/OO members) who get off on upsetting their neighbours.

    >>the residents and assorted objectors need to figure out whether they are reasonable people that can sort out a list of problems and put them behind them. or if they are just hate filled bigots…<

  • frank

    Can you please explain to me which ‘Lodges have no problems carrying banners commemerating mass murderers like the Shankill butchers’?

    cromwell

    How about lodge Old Boyne Island Heroes LOL 633, [known locally as the UVF lodge],who commemorate past terrorist members of the lodge including uvf commander John Bingham & Shankill butcher Bobby ‘Basher’ Bates.

    Would you like more examples ??

  • frank

    cromwell

    Or what about the Sons of Ulster LOL 759 Shankill Rd No9 Dist or Queen Victoria LOL 700 Clifton st No3 Dist who have no problems hiring and being led by a band that is named after convicted uvf murderer Noel Kinner.

    The orange order are so content to be associated with the terrorist band that they have actually led the district, on two occasions, during 12th of July marches.

    http://www.noelkinnersoufb.co.uk/noel.htm

    As i said they are paramilitary processions and should be kept within areas were they have support.

  • Cahal

    Nice one Frank!

    That should keep cromwell quiet for a while!

  • Frank’s one drum
  • Roger

    Why is it that one of the best Orange parades of the year takes place in Donegal, when are we going to collectively wake up in NI.

    The Rossneilagh (I’m not sure what the correct spelling is) parade is terrific, very large and well organised, there are no trouble makers and to my knowledge no drunken louts either, it should be a barometer for all OO parades.

    Having said that the OO has taken a lot of unfair bashings from both Republicans, liberal protestants and all Protestant churches to maybe it is time to recognise that it has a place in the future of both NI and the ROI.

  • jaffa

    As the OO was formed to resist catholic emancipation and protestant republicanism I’m not sure that republican or liberal protestant opposition can be said to be “unfair”.

    That said the modern OO makes no bones about this (see link) and may have a case in labelling modern liberal criticism of its eighteenth century positions anachronistic.

    If the OO is honest about its past and is asking for dialogue then the it desrves a hearing.

    http://www.grandorange.org.uk/history/Early_Years.html

  • frank

    “Having said that the OO has taken a lot of unfair bashings from both Republicans, liberal protestants and all Protestant churches to maybe it is time to recognise that it has a place in the future of both NI and the ROI.”

    roger

    Its difficult to see any future place for an organisation that seems to be increasing the paramilitary involvement in parades in many parts, and let’s not forget these are fully armed and active parmilitary organisations.

    jaffa

    Why should we give a hearing to those who continue to glorify loyalist murderers.

    Only last year we saw the introduction of further banners celebrating terrorists who were also members of the order.

    For example, lodge 733 had no issues about being led by a banner commemorating uff commander Joe Bratty during last years 12th parade in Belfast(as was reported on UTV).

    Bratty was believed to have been responsible for the murder of over 20 Catholics in South Belfast during the 80’s & 90’s, yet the orange order have no problems commemorating him during their main parade of the year.

    There should be no contentious parades, because the marching orders should simply be told to sling their hook and go and march around areas were their is sympathy for the Bratty’s & Basher Bates’ of this world.

  • Bitter Orange

    I see that Darth hasn’t chosen to dispute the fact about so-called voluntarily rerouted parades in Portadown under Thatcher.

    It should not be forgotten that the residents agreed to a FINAL parade in 1995 along Garvaghy Road which took less than 20 peelers to police after a two day stand-off, but when the march reached the town, the OO said there had been no agreement, ans Paisley and Trimble did their “hands held high” walk. (Ask Mediation Network NI if you don’t believe this)

    Does Darth know that in 1998, the residents, during talks chaired by Jonathon Powell, (the PM’s chief of staff) offered a joint parade by nationalists and the OO along Garvaghy Rd which the OO turned down because “only those members whose dues had been paid could participate in an OO parade”!!

  • jaffa

    “a joint parade by nationalists and the OO along Garvaghy Rd”

    so there is hope for my Black Rod idea!

    Frank – where do you do your banner research?
    You’ve been making this point for years now.

    “Why should we give a hearing to those who continue to glorify loyalist murderers.”

    We shouldn’t. But I think our history shows that refusing to talk to people because of unpleasant associations is a sterile path.

    Prods would have to stop talking to SF supporters (ie most catholics) if they held to your logic.

  • Cahal

    Jaffa, can you just clarify how most Catholics (I assume you mean in the six counties) are SF supporters. Bit of a strange comment that.

    And SF don’t march through ‘unionist areas’. IF they did, they wouldn’t be getting my vote. Especially if they dressed like Charlie Chaplin.

  • jaffa

    can you just clarify how most Catholics are SF supporters?

    180,573 give or take the 5% or so who might be protestants republicans / or additional catholic SF supporters who’ve voted tactically for another party.

  • jaffa

    Here’s a more positive set of Orange Hall, 12th July events from the Ulster-Scots festival website

    http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/events.asp

    Celebration of Robert the Bruce and Ulster Scots Cookery
    Divernagh Orange Hall, 28 Divernagh Hall Bessbrook on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 – 10, 11, 12 July 2007

    10 July will begin the 12th celebrations with a demonstation of Ulster-Scots cookery in Divernagh Orange Hall.

    11 July a Robert the Bruce shall be on display alongside another display on the Ulster-Scots.

    12 July there will be entertainment all day form local Ulster Scots bands including members of Piping Hot.

  • jaffa

    Cahal,

    I’m not sure now whether your problem is with glorifying terrorists, walking in “catholic” areas or the two at the same time.

    On the subject of glorifying terror, this is the language we’re offered from SF’s “unionist outreach” czar. And if Ms Anderson is the chiefspokesman is it fair to say that this is then as conciliatory as SF can manage?

    http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/13119

  • Prince Eoghan

    Jaffa.

    >>Prods would have to stop talking to SF supporters (ie most catholics) if they held to your logic.
    Posted by jaffa on Apr 28, 2007 @ 02:13 AM<

  • darth rumsfeld

    sorry to have been away from this trhead for a while.
    Points raised to address

    1 the Thatcher rerouting parades point- relates to the Tunnel/Obins street area, from which parades ceased because the police suggested, and the Orange Order accepted, that Garvaghy road would be a better route…er, a concession surely?

    2. The Orange order were/are unconvinced that the residents’ Coalition was speaking for all residents, hence it wrote to every single householder directly, explaining what the Drumcree parade was about.It has regularly spoken to SDLP representatives, the Irish government, the RC church, individual RC businessmen and community workers- just about every other person who can be deemed to speak for local people, except a self-appointed unaccountable group which was identified at Athy by Adams as being part of a SF/IRA strategy.Quite probably many of them vote SF BTW.

    3 Frank, Frank, Frank- you’ve flogged it to death, but here we go again.
    You never post on threads about IRA members having GAA grounds, competitions or clubs named after them. You don’t complain about IRA killers being members of the policing board, Assembly or Executive or Government review of parades. If their past is irrelevant then Mr Kinner’s must be too (though he’s not a member as you admit- he leads/led a band contracted to lead a lodge). You correctly identify one banner, and possibly two others with paramilitary connections- i.e. 0.25% of lodges with this problem. Not anything like as big a problem as IRA members in SF.And of course not an issue in Portadown, Bellaghy,Dunloy, Newtownbutler, Dromore, or many of the other places where residents “spontaneously” decided to object to parades.

  • darth rumsfeld

    .. oh ands bitter orange, a joint parade makes about as much sense as a simultaneous gaelic and cricket match

  • frank

    darth

    Noel Kinner was a member of the orange order and a convicted uvf killer. He was another member of the uvf lodge on the Shankill Road.

    What about lodge LOL 1085 No.6 District who have no problems being led by The Whitewell Defenders who are strong supporters of the uff.

    http://www.whitewelldefendersfb.com/inmemory.html

    Or what about The Shankil Star Flute Band who led a junior lodge during the junior parade in Bangor, Easter Tuesday 2007.

    The band were established in Memory of uvf murderer and orangeman Brian Robinson and are regulars at orange parades (uvf flags and all)

    http://www.shankillstar.co.uk/home.htm

  • There’s certainly an issue with some of the bands. Many of the marching Orangemen have little time for them for some of the reasons set out above. I believe the Orange Order could do more to ensure that that bands on parade are free of paramilitary insignia.

    But even if the OO did this, it would not be enough. The deplorable conduct of some bands and even the odd lodge is just a red herring. Orangeism excites hostility because it is tangible evidence of the divisions in Ireland over ethnicity and religion. Republicans see it, correctly, as a roadblock to their dream of a united Ireland. Naturally they despise it and would do so even if it elected, say, an arch-liberal like Lady Sylvia as Grand Master, with IJP as her deputy, and confined its parades to the Folk Park.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Sure Watchman the compromises in places like Derry bear out your reasonable analysis.

  • kensei

    “2. The Orange order were/are unconvinced that the residents’ Coalition was speaking for all residents, hence it wrote to every single householder directly, explaining what the Drumcree parade was about.It has regularly spoken to SDLP representatives, the Irish government, the RC church, individual RC businessmen and community workers- just about every other person who can be deemed to speak for local people,”

    So…. they “talked” to just about everyone except the people that have issue with them? Nice one.

    “Explaining what the parade is about” doesn’t actually address any of the problems either.

    “except a self-appointed unaccountable group which was identified at Athy by Adams as being part of a SF/IRA strategy.Quite probably many of them vote SF BTW.”

    And what exactly has their voting intentions got to do with, well anything?

    “Self Appointed and unaccountable” might stick if the OO had some kind of manadate, but er, they are kind of self appointed and unaccountable. Particularly unaccountable, it has to be said, when they call people unto the streets and riots, chaos and murders occur.

  • Cahal

    Jaffa,

    “180,573 give or take” is hardly “most catholics” in the six counties. It’s about 20% of them.

    Anyway, as for the marching stuff. I think they should let them march where ever they want. They should pay for the cleanup of vomit, piss and semen though. You know… those well known fluids that are left after most religious parades.

    The KKK recently marched through skokie (chicagoland). People just laughed at them for being utter BALLBAGS. We should take the same approach to the OO.

    Rise above it.

  • frank

    “Many of the marching Orangemen have little time for them for some of the reasons set out above”

    Why then do so many lodges hire and pay bands with clear paramilitary connections if they have so little time for them.

    The Tour of The North parade was led by the uvf tribute band(shankill star) a couple of years ago and the leadership of the orange order including Bobby Saulters and the Belfast district officials marched directly behind the uvf band.

    Do you honestly believe that the leadership did not know and see that the band commemorated a uvf killer on its banner,drum & uniforms.

    The order not only accomodates paramilitaries within its ranks but in recent years has been quite happy to openly support the fully armed & active terrorist organisations.

    Take the response of senior orangeman Brian Mahwinney during loyalist violence in 2005, He said that the loyalist paramilitaries were an integral part of the unionist community and were the protectors of orangemen & the community.

    Then there was Dawson Baillie who, when questioned about orangemen(in full regalia) taking part in a uvf memorial on the Shankill Road said

    “The Orange Order is a very broad church and it’s not my responsibility to say to people they can’t be members of various organisations,”

    Or Deputy Grand Master of Belfast, McMordie said in july 2005

    “They are on our side(uvf/uda) and continue to defend the orange orders refusal to talk to residents”

    Its utter rubbish to use the ‘Many of the marching Orangemen have little time for them’ arguement, when the paramilitaries are so heavily represented at most orange order/apprentice boys marches.

    When lodges are happy to be represented by terrorist supporters, they can expect little sympathy.

    Civil & religious liberty & this crowd !! http://www.sead-fb.co.uk/p11.php?view=6

  • Roger

    Frank that utter nonsense, paramilitary involvement in OO parades is so limited that only isolated examples can be pinpointed. Where I come they have never been involved.

    I think both the Independant order and the OO need to stear clear from Paisley and other politicians on the 12th of July as these people are only interested in their own political and personal agendas.

  • peter fyfe

    Jaffa

    3. Here’s a more positive set of Orange Hall, 12th July events from the Ulster-Scots festival website …….

    You make a good point, positive event’s, nobody will argue. where was the protest? Great to see you point out how protests only happen when people are genuinley offended. So the tale of all protesters being anti-orange or anti-prod is a myth after all. everybody knows some are. maybe they just wish to have a summer without intimidating crowds drinking in the streets outside. they may also not appreciate the sash being played loudly outside a mass. So much for religious freedom. It may also scare some these crowds contain an extent of anti-catholic feeling although in some logdes this may be very small though in some very large.

    To think all the resident’s asked for was to talk about this, how unfair can they be?

  • peter fyfe

    Roger

    When many of these bands like these have been supported by the grand lodge each year in belfast. It quite clearly is not isolated when such a large demonstration shows support for the UDA/UFF/UVF/LVF by walking with their members.

  • Roger

    Peter

    No they don’t, Ivan Little could only point to one example on last years coverage of the 12th and I sincerely hope that it will be stamped out for this forthcoming 12th.

    As I said before it generally does not happen outside Belfast.

  • Wilde Rover

    Wouldn’t it be possible to take the sting out of these events?

    Why not get everyone in period costume, like American Civil War re-enactors? Everyone from both sides could head to the Boyne once a year and put on a hell of a show for the tourists.

    And afterward, everyone could go to Dublin to celebrate the two cultures by consuming lattes, Carlsberg and fine wines in global village bars while listening to Funky House.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Posted by frank on Apr 28, 2007 @ 09:08 PM

    Very well put!

    Like Roger some will always have an excuse not to change. The message is loud and clear, uncivilized organisations more suited in the 19th C have no place in a modern progressive society.

    It is change or disappear, and pronto!

  • Roger

    Eoghan

    You are distorting what I have said, this thread has failed to recongnise much of the good work done by Orangefest and 99.99% of parades do not have paramilitary involvment. I believe the 0.01% do need to be stamped out without delay and people are working hard to do this.

    The fact is that the OO is NOT going to disappear, membership has held firm and even grown despite a difficult period in the orders history.

    Acceptance and tolerance should be the order of the day instead of enforced change from outsiders. Lets face it people like Eoghan will never be happy until the order is completely removed.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Roger.

    Do you keep making excuses that some parts of a cancer are benign, thus let’s ignore the potentially deadly malignant part and hope it goes away. Of course you wouldn’t!

    Sorry Roger it won’t wash. Oh and by the way why not just label me a bigot and be done with it. Sure it beats reasoned argumentative discussion any day.

  • Roger

    I have clearly said that I want any paramilitary activity stamped out and out and efforts are being made to do this, you seem to refuse to give the order any credit for this at all.

    Besides how long will it take for you to use the illogical arguement that if the KKK clan ……..

    Its no way to run a constructive discussion by saying unless the OO do as we say they must go, I accect constuctive criticism but it must be fair and even handed.

  • Iano

    circumSATANces
    Posted by George on Apr 27, 2007 @ 05:11 PM
    Brilliant

  • Mr Wilson

    http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/events.asp

    Y’s nay ritten n Ollster-Scods?

  • Pancho’s Horse

    All this reminiscing about the’Twalfth’ is true. I remember Catholics (Roman) looking after their Protestant neighbour’s cattle while they were away for the day and when the poor Hibernian’s drum burst shure didn’t the local OO Lodge lend them theirs. This was a grand wee country till Sin Fin began agitating.I also remember when the local brethren stopped speaking to their non-christian Roman Catholic neighbours from the start of July and when the local Prod selling his house to one of the others was called a Lundy as he marched past. But to Hell with casting up ……..

  • hotdogx

    Guys, the OO was born in conflict and without that conflict to sustain it it will die off. If the OO are serious about reform and non sectarian acts they should wave the right (as they see it) to walk all contentious routes until such time as they are invited to walk these routes. If they were invited to dublin it can happen anywhere in ireland. Things are changing, the OO will be forced to change also
    but without the conflict or as stated above someone to whom they can display their superiority/domination they will have no reason to exist. People have tried reasoning with the OO for years im afaid as nice and democratic your idea of lists is eranu it wont work with the OO. Im sick of looking at this crap on TV every year the “midsummer madness”

  • George

    Darth,
    The Orange order were/are unconvinced that the residents’ Coalition was speaking for all residents, hence it wrote to every single householder directly, explaining what the Drumcree parade was about.It has regularly spoken to SDLP representatives, the Irish government, the RC church, individual RC businessmen and community workers- just about every other person who can be deemed to speak for local people

    As I have yet to hear the Garvaghy Rd residents come out and say that their residents group doesn’t represent them, I find it strange that the Orange Order thinks a foreign government, a Roman Catholic businessman or Johnny community worker more representative than a resident group in the area they want to parade in.

    Would the Orange Order then accept if the residents voted a representative group for them in an independently verified election?

    Would they talk to these people? I’m sure it can be arranged it that’s the only reason why the Oranage Order won’t talk to the residents – sham representation. This is hardly an insurmountable problem.

  • frank

    “I have clearly said that I want any paramilitary activity stamped out and out and efforts are being made to do this, you seem to refuse to give the order any credit for this at all.”

    I would be interested in hearing what efforts are being made by the marching orders to eradicate the paramilitary connections.

    If they are making efforts, they are not trying very hard, going by some of the participants at the marches in Kilkeel (Easter Monday) & the Junior Orange Parade (bangor) 2007.

    The apprentice boys don’t seem to have any problems paying the ‘Kill All Irish’ band from Rathcool for example.

  • darth rumsfeld

    frank
    you need to get out more. But before you do, arch anti-paramilitarist that you are,please tell us what to do about Spike Murray, Martina Anderson, Bik McFarlane etc etc to the 100th time- who are engaged in public life at various levels?

    George
    Er, if those who were beihnd the GRRC had connections , it could hardly be surprising if noone said it was unrepresentative.

    . If it wanted to be representative presumably it would circulate every householder in a (self)defined area with a vote, have a constitution, and AGM etc etc.We’ve never seen or heard of any.

    It would have community development aims as opposed to just “Stop themmuns”. Again I can’t remember too many folk nights,literary events, or cookery classes being organised by the GRRC. AS a bona fide community group it would be keen to tap into funding available for cross community events.

    Yeah, why not let people appoint themselves as spokesmen for communities and do away with pesky elections altogether. Look at me. I’m the King of Kircubbin

  • Just a wee point

    DR you seem to have forgot that the two spokespersons for the GRRC both put themselves up for election in 1997 and were successfully elected to Craigavon council. Both men have a good community record, look at their involvement in Drumcree Community Centre (totally built without any state aid) and Mayfair Business Centre on the Garvaghy Road (which attracted over £2m of investment and now containing 23 small businesses and employing over 140 local people).
    And if I’m not mistaken, isn’t Breandan Mac Cionnaith presently the chair of the Neighbourhood Renewal partnership in Portadown which includes (wait for it) part of the loyalist Edgarstown area.

  • George

    Darth,
    Yeah, why not let people appoint themselves as spokesmen for communities and do away with pesky elections altogether. Look at me. I’m the King of Kircubbin

    Breandán MacCionnaith and Joe Duffy both got elected as Independent Nationalist Community Candidates in the area in 1997 and the Orange Order still refused to speak to them.

  • George

    Darth,
    just to add they got over twice the vote of the SDLP in that council election.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Roger: “I have clearly said that I want any paramilitary activity stamped out and out and efforts are being made to do this, you seem to refuse to give the order any credit for this at all. ”

    That’s because talk is cheap. Lipservice has been paid to the notion of “stamping out paramilitary activity” for *HOW* long, with no results in the problematic parades. Excuses are made on this board that the OO structure is decentralized and that “since the police permit the law-breaking, who are we to protest” and the usual malarky. Actions speak far louder than words. The continued presence of these groups, year to year, is far more persuasive that even the most facile of postings.

  • frank

    darth

    I get out often, although i tend not to walk around the streets and roads with paramilitatary bands and paramilitaries in sashes, like convicted Shankill butcher Eddie McIlwaine who is a well respected member of the order in West Belfast and carries the banner of his local lodge who commemorate his fellow ‘throat cutter’ basher Bates and other senior uvf murderers.

    Regarding your last post and your whatabout,whataboutery… The secrets in the thread title – its about the orange order.