PUP leader highlighting the ‘good’ work that is going on..

On his blog, the BBC’s Mark Devenport tells us that during an interview for tomorrow’s Inside Politics, PUP leader Dawn Purvis repeats her assertion that no-one is under threat from the UVF.. He doesn’t get anything more from the PUP leader on UVF decommissioning than Brian Rowan did for the Belfast Telegraph. But he did get an acknowledgement that she will not be seeking re-appointment, as an independent member, to the Policing Board. Some of us have been arguing that she should never have been appointed, by Peter Hain, to the Policing Board in the first place.From the Belfast Telegraph report

On the IMC meeting, Dawn Purvis told this newspaper: “While it’s their job to shine a light on the negative aspects of paramilitarism, it is up to us in the PUP to highlight to them the good work that is going on, and to explain and help them understand this process of conflict transformation.”

Of course it is, Dawn.. of course it is..

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  • marty (not ingram)

    “While it’s their job to shine a light on the negative aspects of paramilitarism

    I’m looking forward to someone attempting to promote the positive aspects of paramiltaries.

    In the build-up to that UVF statement, the PUP plans other meetings with the British and Irish governments, the police and the unionist political parties.
    I.e. youse gave the UDA £1m, can we have some as well?

  • Wee Sammy

    “Some of us have been arguing that she should never have been appointed, by Peter Hain, to the Policing Board in the first place.”

    There is somebody somewhere in N.Ireland, arguing that something that did happen over the past thirty eight years should not have happened. It really is time to forget the past (all of it) and just get on with the future.

  • marty (not ingram)

    It really is time to forget the past (all of it) and just get on with the future.

    Indeed! Let us all celebrate Dawn Purvis and her band of fully armed paramilitaries! A bright future awaits us all. Provided we don’t happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

  • Peter

    If the PUP/UVF take 10 years to disarm while gaining political ground, no-one can point the finger. The IRA/sinn Fein took over 10 years since their 1st ceasefire to disarm and they used their weapons to gain a political mandate.

    What’s good for the goose is good for the gander!

  • marty (not ingram)

    Peter,
    If the PUP/UVF take 10 years to disarm while gaining political ground, no-one can point the finger. The IRA/sinn Fein took over 10 years since their 1st ceasefire to disarm and they used their weapons to gain a political mandate.

    Your statement is based on the assumption that those who call on the UVF to disarm support SF, therefore making it ok for the UVF to hold onto their weapons for another while.

    Your assumption is flawed.

  • gareth mccord

    sammy
    my family would love to “forget the past(all of it ) and just get on with the future”.
    but like many other people in this country we cant move on for lack or no justice for the murder of there loved ones!
    my family have been unable to move on since the 9th nov 1997 because of the people in our government paying hiding protecting and excusing murderers.
    for us to hear the crap that comes out of dawn “denial” purvis mouth is beyond reason and insulting to the murder victims of the uvf!
    all that speaks for the pup are just puppets for the uvf commander bunter “mi5” graham!
    A simple question for the new puppet speaking for bunter is this:WHY WONT YOU MEET THE VICTIMS THAT THE UVF MURDERED SINCE THERE SO CALLED CEASEFIRE IN 1994?(after all the pup arent the uvf so you say).

  • Comrade Stalin

    my family have been unable to move on since the 9th nov 1997 because of the people in our government paying hiding protecting and excusing murderers.

    Gareth, surely it has a lot to do with people on the ground supporting paramilitarism. The government took advantage of that by running informants, but there’d be no informants if there wasn’t the ground support for the terrorists in the first place.

  • gareth mccord

    comrade
    i agree with your point that the ground support kept the terrorists flames lit.But from my days growing up in rathcoole and other loyalist areas the vast majority did not give there support to the drug dealing murdering para scum. It was and is true about the saying “your owns the worst”.
    People like my family who have always stood up to the so called loyalist scum did it on there own with no help from the crown and their forces, who have the power.
    The truth is my own unionist politicians ignored our pleas for help because of their knowledge of the paid killing informants. Also they dont want to get embarrassed because they are up to there necks in dirty deeds aswell.
    Three words that would ease alot of grieving and let people get on with their lives is TRUTH JUSTICE & FORGIVENESS! But one is not achievable without the three together.

  • SuperSoupy

    Gareth,

    What does your family think of Jim Allister’s latest?

    http://www.jimallister.org/default.asp?blogID=621

  • Comrade Stalin

    Gareth,

    Thanks for the reply. I don’t have your insight into things like life in Rathcoole. I always have a hard time understanding what level of support loyalist paramilitarism has. On one hand, I know that paramilitary organizations can’t exist without some level of support; on the other hand, the loyalists cannot win electoral support to any great extent which suggests they cannot even convince people to support them anonymously.

    I find unionist politicians notable for their somewhat hushed criticism of loyalist paramilitary activity, as you have said. I thought that the only reason for this is because by the back door they like to maintain links with loyalist paramilitaries in case they ever need to call on their services again.

    Your father is pretty much alone in the league of sustained opposition to loyalist paramilitarism (he’s probably one of the bravest men I’ve heard of). He’s saying the things that the politicians should be saying. It would have been a real hoot if he’d got in the sixth seat in North Belfast and knocked Cobain out.

  • gareth mccord

    comrade
    i think cobain needs knocked out more ways than one:-)
    but thanks for your support

  • gareth mccord

    supersoupy
    ive just sent him an e mail and the rest of the m.e.p.s i can. So we will have to wait for his and their response. But a wild guess is that he will be were he is now, in the island of non believers bigots and with his head buried deep deep into the sand!

  • nonsense

    Lets try and look at this sensibly, while Ervine was a former UVF prisoner Dawn Purvis has no such baggage and hopefully that is a sign of future direction for both the PUP and the UVF, her tenure has been too short to judge so far.

    I really find the whole idea of paramilitaries as distasteful as other posters, but I dont see the benefit in this kind of negativity, it wont bring about the end of paramilitarism, the fact that this UVF process has been of their own creation, seperated from the political process, can only be a good thing – I will reserve judgement until they make this ‘statement’ – but they do have alot to live up to.

  • Peter

    It’s taking place, the Loyalists are beginning to achieve their part of Ulster, slowly and surely.

    It’ll take some time though, the Loylaists haven’t seen any real action by the Shinners, yet.

  • gareth mccord

    nonsense by name and by the nonsense you write!
    do you actually know who is in charge of the pup?
    i will help you out by saying that the ira and s.f. are in the same mould.
    so for dawn or any other puppet to speak it is to speak for the uvf who incase you havent heard are still drug dealing robbing racketeering and intimidating and targeting for murder! So what is your point about “the uvf process?
    oops maybe your right we should all turn a blind eye on the current activities and murder investigations and paid murderering informants who are free and living a life of luxury protected from the government!
    WISE UP WAKE UP AND BE HONEST!

  • youbehonest

    You have a cheek gareth mccord.

    why dont you be honest? honest about the fact that your brother was one of those ‘drug dealers’ – after being dishonourably discharged from the RAF for passing dud cheques.

    Honest about the fact that your father was as close to the UVF as anyone could be, before the (wrong and undeniable) attack on your brother. He cares now that he has been personally effected, he wasnt so bothered when it was someone elses son…the UVF have always been how they are now it didnt start when your brother was killed.

  • what is the point

    Pete

    “Some of us have been arguing that she should never have been appointed, by Peter Hain, to the Policing Board in the first place.”

    You may have disagreed with her appointment at the beginning however her impact on the Policing Board has been credited by the Chairman and Secretary of State on several occasions and her performance as a board member has been well recieved.

    She is actually the only independent member I have heard anything about, it is not a topic I pay alot of attention too, so she must have made a positive impact.

  • Dawn Purvis would be better advised getting a hold on the UVF thugs who are still terrorising Short Strand residents over the past few weeks. There’s little sign of ceasefires or a “New Dawn” amongst the gangs of UVF/YCV thugs who carry out such attacks…

  • Comrade Stalin

    nonsense:

    Lets try and look at this sensibly, while Ervine was a former UVF prisoner Dawn Purvis has no such baggage and hopefully that is a sign of future direction for both the PUP and the UVF, her tenure has been too short to judge so far.

    Nope. Purvis would be a non-entity if Ervine’s shoes weren’t there for her to step into. Ervine’s “legacy” was hyped and Purvis used that – quite deftly – to promote herself as his successor. The PUP itself would be a non-entity, just like all the other little unionist parties, if they did not have a paramilitary organization standing behind them. The truth is that if you have a few guns the government will listen to you. I think the Alliance Party should start it’s own paramilitary wing. The only thing that Purvis has going for her is the fact that she has a mandate. As Gareth says, I wouldn’t doubt for a second who really is in charge of the PUP. Not long before his death Ervine made a comment to the effect that he had little or no influence over the UVF. Purvis’ influence will be even less. Remember how easily the UDA disbanded the UDP. Very little to stop the UVF doing the same.

    macswiney:

    Dawn Purvis would be better advised getting a hold on the UVF thugs who are still terrorising Short Strand residents over the past few weeks. There’s little sign of ceasefires or a “New Dawn” amongst the gangs of UVF/YCV thugs who carry out such attacks…

    It’s the PSNI’s job to put a stop to this. By asking Purvis to intervene, you are granting both her and the UVF legitimacy as custodians of community policing.

    As I said above, Dawn Purvis isn’t going to get hold of anybody. They’ve got hold of her though, and she’ll do/say exactly what they tell her to.

  • Comrade Stalin,

    “It’s the PSNI’s job to put a stop to this. By asking Purvis to intervene, you are granting both her and the UVF legitimacy as custodians of community policing”.

    Complete and utter hogwash! Firstly, it is elements of The UVF who are actually carrying out these attacks. Purvis’s party are the political wing of that organisation, so, (OF COURSE) they have a responsibility to use their influence to bring about an end to such attacks. How can you possibly absolve Purvis and her party of such a responsibility??? If you believe that she and her party have no influence over the UVF then you are truly living in never-never land…

    Mind-boggling really, espescially when I have frequently seen you comment on other threads about Sinn Feins “responsibilities” in bringing influence to bear towards Republican paramilitaries. Surely a degree of hypocrisy is at play here…

  • Tori

    “No-one is under threat from the UVF”.

    Unfortunately this is an enormous lie.

    I invite Dawn Purvis to read this blunt statement made by leading IRSP man Willie Gallagher after it emerged that his details and those of two low-ranking members of the party in Strabane may be in the hands of the Ulster Volunteer Force.
    Willie Gallagher, a former prisoner, was told by the PSNI on Friday that his details may be in the possession of Loyalist paramilitaries.
    Personal details of the three are believed to be among details of some 100 people discovered during an arrest operation on April 11.
    Following that operation, one man has been charged with membership of the UVF and of possessing explosives.
    Another man, a police civilian worker, stands accused of having documents likely to be of use to terrorists.
    The man, who worked in the police’s crime management branch, has been suspended. He has been remanded in custody on the charges, which also include allegedly breaching the Data Protection Act and misconduct in public office.
    Police have now begun an internal inquiry into allegations that the security of their computer system has been breached.
    At the end of last week, police arrived at the home of Willie Gallagher and, whilst they told him a threat did exist, they did not reveal the nature of that threat nor the details held by the group on Mr Gallagher.
    A police message stated that during a search of premises on Wednesday April 11 police took possession of a number of documents. Examination of the documents revealed information concerning Mr Gallagher may be in the possession of Loyalist paramilitaries, the message said.
    Two other men, described as low-ranking IRSP members were also told that a threat existed. Both are said to be ‘very shaken’ by the threats.
    Mr Gallagher said police have refused to divulge what details are held by Loyalists about him, and even refused to say what grouping the threat concerned.
    “I am now applying for a judicial review in an attempt to extract information from the PSNI regarding details that are held concerning myself in order to make a personal security assessment.
    “The lack of information means that I cannot take any steps to protect myself. What personal details does it relate to, my home address, place of work, or car registration.
    “I can’t assess the risk to my personal safety because I don’t have any information. It is not so much for myself, but for others that I am more concerned,” said Mr Gallagher, who has been the subject of numerous threats down through the years.
    “It is sinister given the past relationship between the PSNI and the UVF, so the threat has to be taken seriously. The other two members of the party are quite shaken that their details have been made available and are concerned for their families.”
    Mr Gallagher, who believes the information came from the police database added, “If this information is in the hands of UVF terrorists, why can’t they tell us what information they have?
    “Where is the parity of esteem and this new beginning to policing when I can’t even get details which came from the police database?
    “I am absolutely disgusted that the PSNI won’t give any information to the citizens they are obligated to protect. Information is required so a personal threat assessment can be made. But it’s no surprise that we haven’t been told.
    “Another issue is the silence from Unionist parties. A number of years ago they closed down Stormont because of alleged intelligence gathering and yet they have remained completely silent on this.”

  • gareth mccord

    honest
    the fact that you hide your id and spin the uvf black propaganda proves to all that read your nonsense what a COWARD you are.
    i can meet the uvf and pup and say to their faces what im writing on slugger with proof of my allegations. Can you meet me and do the same?(i dont think so).
    i have been honest and its in previous posts about raymonds past. For my fathers close links to the uvf, he had and has people he talks to and people he would have a pint with from all corners of our society. if you know anyone who has no friends who are connected then they are a rare breed.

  • gareth mccord

    macswinney
    how can PUPpet purvis, tell her master to do anything, when the master tells the puppet what to do? If her master wants carnage brought to short strand, she would have to obey and spin uvf lies like ervine did, after each murder the uvf commited after their CEASEFIRE!

  • Gareth,

    I greatly symphasise with what your family have been through and wish you all the best with your campaign.

    However, I think sometimes it’s important to keep things in perspective. I dont doubt that the PUP and UVF are closely linked. That was my whole point. However I do think that Purvis and some of her colleagues are genuinely pursuing a democratic path. That is why I think it is important that they clearly and transparently deal with any UVF indiscressions. She DOES have influence and she cant have it both ways. If she wants to participate fully in The Assembly, she must sort out the UVF in the same way that Adams had to deal with the IRA. I do not share your view however that she is completely controlled by The UVF. That seems somewhat over-the-top to be honest…

  • gareth mccord

    macswinney
    when the uvf commit crimes what is or has been the pup response to the media?
    so what is your point about the democratic and transparent path purvis is on?

  • nonsense

    MACSWINEY

    Your last post above is perhaps the most sensible in this thread so far, Dawn Purvis is clearly pursuing a democratic path with the PUP and they have been for some time….I can only imagine how difficult it is to pull a large/cumbersome and previously violent and secretive organisation with you.

    In relation to the following:-

    “It’s the PSNI’s job to put a stop to this. By asking Purvis to intervene, you are granting both her and the UVF legitimacy as custodians of community policing”. – Comrade Stalin

    “Complete and utter hogwash! Firstly, it is elements of The UVF who are actually carrying out these attacks. Purvis’s party are the political wing of that organisation, so, (OF COURSE) they have a responsibility to use their influence to bring about an end to such attacks. How can you possibly absolve Purvis and her party of such a responsibility??? If you believe that she and her party have no influence over the UVF then you are truly living in never-never land… ” – MACSWINEY

    The UVF of course have a responsibility for their own actions and by association the PUP have a responsibility to do all in their power to influence the UVF….but it is the PSNI’s job to put a stop to it and also Purvis’ to a lesser extent, the problem begins when the police in particluar use the UVF to police interfaces etc this only institutionalises the problem and legitimises the paramilitaries – so the truth and way forward is somewhere in the middle.

    Your comments on who controls the PUP are also very sensible, there is no way that the UVF control the PUP, and ervine was the same, which moves me on too:-

    Comrade Stalin

    “I wouldn’t doubt for a second who really is in charge of the PUP. Not long before his death Ervine made a comment to the effect that he had little or no influence over the UVF. Purvis’ influence will be even less. Remember how easily the UDA disbanded the UDP. Very little to stop the UVF doing the same.”

    You have gotten this confused and have added two and two and gotten five. Just because Ervine said his influence with the UVF had declined, doesnt necessarily mean that they are in charge – just that they werent listening to him…perhaps he was moving too far ahead of them?…. MACSWINEY is right there is no way that the UVF controls the PUP, they just try and influence where possible and I feel it is their responsibilty to continue this…and they should deal transparently with any future UVF discretions and given her start as leader and MLA I think Dawn Purvis will take this route.

  • nonsense

    the last line above should say ‘UVF indiscretions’

  • TAFKABO

    How many years do we have to wait whilst terrorists pursue the democratic path?
    What exactly is taking the UVF and other groups so long to grasp the basics of democracy?
    I left the PUP about five years ago, after it became clear that the party was nothing more than handy mouthpiece for the UVF, and had little to no influence over the actions of the UVF.

    We’re through the looking glass on this issue, these groups exist and demand credit for not killing people, or slowing down the frequency and rate of their misdemeanours.

    What exactly is it that we need to be thanking Purvis and the PUP for ?
    What did she contribute to policing that outweighs the strains her private army have placed on the job of policing?

    This is about racketeering, political racketeering. Purvis is the spokesperson for a protection racket that is being paid and rewarded for by the political establishment, in pretty much the same way small businessmen felt compelled to pay and reward them.

    Fact is, the Republicans milked the system for all they could get, that’s happened and we can’t turn the clock back, but surely we don’t need to sit and do nothing whilst Loyalists now try to do the same thing?

  • Gareth,

    I said earlier that I sincerely support your family’s campaign. However, I think it perhaps weakens your campaign somewhat when you try to label ALL elements of the PUP/UVF as being undemocratic. (and please bear in mind that I am speaking as a Republican here).

    To the best of my knowledge Dawn Purvis has never in any way been directly involved with UVF terrorism. She was elected to the Assembly on a democratic mandate and I believe that she is sincerely and honestly trying to lead her party/organisation on a democratic path. To argue otherwise seems absurd to me.

    This does not absolve her from pro-actively dealing with the criminal activities and violence which continue to be perpetrated by the UVF. I think that she needs to be much more pro-active in this respect and hopefully this will happen in time, bearing in mind that she has only recently assumed the leadership of her party.

  • gareth mccord

    nonsense
    so why dont the pup criticise the uvf murders and current activities?
    why dont the pup help with investigations into uvf murders?
    get the picture sherlock

  • TAFKABO

    Dawn Purvis is directly involved with the UVF., if not as a member, then as an associate.

  • gareth mccord

    if dawn was different from previous puppets then why has she the same attitude of denial to the murders and activities of the uvf?
    if she is different why wont she meet with the victims families?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Complete and utter hogwash! Firstly, it is elements of The UVF who are actually carrying out these attacks. Purvis’s party are the political wing of that organisation, so, (OF COURSE) they have a responsibility to use their influence to bring about an end to such attacks.

    The UVF are criminal scum who attack taigs, as well as other people they don’t like, for fun, as well as engaging in drug dealing, racketeering and other criminality. You are welcome to indulge yourself in the weird fantasy that by talking to them politely you will get somewhere. The best of luck to you with that, but for the Short Strand residents it hasn’t worked. The way people normally do it in civilized societies is to get the police in to arrest people involved in violent crime and put them in jail. That’s what needs to be done with the UVF.

    The UVF want you to come to their door on your knees and beg them to kindly stop. It gives them legitimacy, makes them seem respectable. However it only reinforces them, and the attacks won’t stop permanently. These people are not children, and they do not understand the concept of reasonable behaviour and being civilized. Trying to reason with them is a waste of time.

    How can you possibly absolve Purvis and her party of such a responsibility???

    I didn’t, you made that up.

    If you believe that she and her party have no influence over the UVF then you are truly living in never-never land…

    What evidence do you have that Purvis has influence over anything other than her pet dog ? I can just picture a meeting of the UVF inner council. “lads, we were going to petrol bomb a few houses, but old Dawn over there said it’s not such a good idea, so let’s go home, do a bit of gardening and read poetry to the kids at the community centre”.

    Wise yourself the hell up.

    Mind-boggling really, espescially when I have frequently seen you comment on other threads about Sinn Feins “responsibilities” in bringing influence to bear towards Republican paramilitaries.

    Please quote the thread where I said this. I have never said that SF have a “responsibility” to do anything other than respect the wishes of the people of Ireland and the UK. I have consistently rejected the idea that paramilitaries should be treated with kid gloves when they are showing no inclination to stick with peaceful means.

    Surely a degree of hypocrisy is at play here…

    No, you’re making things up and attributing to them needlessly. I’d like you to stop.

    However I do think that Purvis and some of her colleagues are genuinely pursuing a democratic path.

    Given what’s going on at Short Strand, why ?

    She DOES have influence and she cant have it both ways.

    What makes you think this ?

    If she wants to participate fully in The Assembly, she must sort out the UVF in the same way that Adams had to deal with the IRA.

    What makes you think this will ever happen ?

    I do not share your view however that she is completely controlled by The UVF. That seems somewhat over-the-top to be honest…

    Why ? Look at the UDP and what happened to them.

    nonsense:

    Just because Ervine said his influence with the UVF had declined, doesnt necessarily mean that they are in charge – just that they werent listening to him…perhaps he was moving too far ahead of them?

    The UVF doesn’t give a damn what the PUP does or says. Therefore they have no influence. I’m pretty sure Ervine tried to intervene to get things stopped. Equally, I’m sure they said “aye right David” and put the phone down. What proof do we have that it’s any different ?

    there is no way that the UVF controls the PUP, they just try and influence where possible and I feel it is their responsibilty to continue this…

    Fat lot of good that is. As I said, I think a move into the dark depths of criminality would be a great move for the Alliance Party. Set up a new paramilitary organization operating out of Cherryvalley, using beamers, mercs and jags to do drive-by shootings and sell high-quality refind coke and crack to the movers and shakers of the new middle class economy. Then they could come onto Slugger, and people like you and Macswiney would be on saying, support the Alliance Party, they have a responsibility to use their influence to stop these disgraceful drive-by shootings, let’s give them government money, they need our support yadda yadda.

  • gareth mccord

    comrade
    so true but what you say is not hard to understand or prove!
    If people dont grasp what the pup are about now they never will so dont waste your effort to try and make the blind see and deaf hear!

  • Crues

    Gareth – its all a bit rich this criticism of the paramilitaries when your family is itself steep in paramilitarism – pot, kettle and black mate

  • gareth mccord

    crues
    its obvious your a uda or uvf member due to your cowardice towards your id and implying the crues club(uvf drinking den)
    maybe you could explain why my members of my family never helped my family when we were petrolled bombed, shot at, beaten up and had a family member murdered by a paramilitary gang?
    i think you fool nobody with your uvf black propaganda. Everyone knows my family have fought against the scum so called loyalists all our lives and will always stand up against the likes of you!MATE

  • Crues

    Unlike you mate I don’t have a family history of paramilitary involvement – if you are so sure about knowing Rathcoole and its history then you won’t have forgotten your dad’s time with the UDA or your brother’s time in the UVF – and just in case you are not up to speed I wonder which member of your clan now heads up the local UVF?

  • gareth mccord

    CRUES
    get a taxi straight to knockbracken and sign in.!!! you are off your head!!

  • Crues

    So no members of your family were druggy paramilitaries? – nobody chucked out of the RAF in disgrace – wonder why they were so close to Haddock – maybe there were in the same youth club? or was it another of your favourite organisations they were involved with.

  • nonsense

    Stalin

    Your opinion doesnt seem that different from what Purvis herself has been saying and Ervine before her.
    i.e. “let the PSNI deal with the criminals while we try and move along those who are prepared to change’

    The UVF certainly has its fair share of scumbags and some will never change, but I dont see the logic in just righting them all off…it will be a much bigger problem in the long run. It makes more sense to me to offer them a more productive role in society (NOT saying money…I just mean as part of a new post conflict society) and those who cant or wont change – by all means lock up!

    I dont know what your talking about in relation to the short strand – lets just say I live very close by and it is actually UVF men moving the little scrotums away from causing trouble. Now I have my own issues with them having the legitimacy of this role, but at the minute it is a very positive one at least in outcome.

  • gareth mccord

    no-no-no-no-no and is that taxi ordered yet?

  • Comrade Stalin

    i.e. “let the PSNI deal with the criminals while we try and move along those who are prepared to change’

    I never heard either Ervine or Purvis say that UVF members who engage in criminality should be prosecuted by the PSNI.

    The UVF certainly has its fair share of scumbags and some will never change,

    How can you join the UVF, and not be a scumbag ?

    but I dont see the logic in just righting them all off…it will be a much bigger problem in the long run.

    Contrasted with the big problem which you get when criminality and violence are rewarded with political power and government grants, I think whatever problems you envisage are less significant. It’s the job of everyone here to keep politics moving and keep talking. Those who don’t get on board and try to hold things back must be crushed, otherwise they will crush the rest of us.

    It makes more sense to me to offer them a more productive role in society (NOT saying money…I just mean as part of a new post conflict society)

    I am a part of the post-conflict society, nobody had to offer me anything. I would say that the majority of people in the communities where the UVF is strong didn’t wait to be offered something either.

    I dont know what your talking about in relation to the short strand – lets just say I live very close by and it is actually UVF men moving the little scrotums away from causing trouble. Now I have my own issues with them having the legitimacy of this role, but at the minute it is a very positive one at least in outcome.

    Fair enough, I am not familiar with the situation so I’ve no reason to disbelieve you.

  • nonsense

    stalin

    I heard Ervine say it many times, in fact it was a common theme of his…’criminals cannot be loyalists – let Hugh Orde deal with them’ Purvis too.

    The problems I envisage if the paramilitaries were ignored and left to be dealt with solely by the criminal justice system regardless of their ability to be part of the solution and reintegrate with society would have been and would be catastrophic…if the IRA had not been engaged by Sinn Fein, Hume, Governments and fully integrated into the democratic process….we would still be in chaos.

    There are far more paramilitaries even now than most people realise…our system couldnt cope with the jail cells required and the money needed to pursue this ‘crushing’ of which you speak…all that without factoring in those who would not come quietly.

    The fact of the matter is that there are a large percentage of former and current paramilitaries who are willing to either go home or take on a more productive role in society…why would this not be a favorable outcome?

    You misunderstand, I dont mean offer in the sense of anything material, simply the space and opportunity to reintegrate if thats the path they choose..now we have all moved on…if not the criminal justice system then kicks in.

  • gareth mccord

    nonsense
    There is no part in any society for murderers drug dealers extortionists etc etc!
    The genuine scumbags who do want to put the past behind and move forward should live the rest of their lives away from their victims eyes and ears to save more pain. What right does a scumbag have in the say of running any community, whenever they are the ones who destroyed the community.
    the last thing the decent people of these communities need is the scumbags OFFICIALLY running them.
    the elections speak loudly for what the communties want from scumbags

  • Comrade Stalin

    The problems I envisage if the paramilitaries were ignored and left to be dealt with solely by the criminal justice system regardless of their ability to be part of the solution and reintegrate with society would have been and would be catastrophic…if the IRA had not been engaged by Sinn Fein, Hume, Governments and fully integrated into the democratic process….we would still be in chaos.

    nonsense, I don’t see a distinction between the paramilitaries and regular criminals. I think the Hume/Adams process and the subsequent British/Irish endorsement of it was a serious mistake. It has created the precedent for official endorsement of the legitimacy of paramilitary activity. I think this reached an early peak when Mo Mowlam talked of a murder being “housekeeping”, and we’re seeing the same sort of stuff with the UVF/UDA “initiatives” now.

    The issue is different in the communities where loyalists have a powerbase, simply because they do not receive electoral endorsement. That tells us something very simple – those communities do not want the paramilitaries in charge. Given that this is the case, we should not ignore the electorate, and we should not provide power and finance to people who have no right to receive any of it.

    I do not mind supporting care & resettlement schemes for former paramilitaries. A different matter is providing finance and political power to organizations which have categorically refused to disarm or disband.

    I think that paramilitarism can be defeated one way or another. It could not be done by force during the earlier period in our history when the paramilitaries had significant sympathies from the local community. Today, armed paramilitarism is unsupported, and there are opportunities for doing what Rudy Guiliana did to the mafia in New York.

  • belfastpaul

    All of this is unfortunate. However, people like Dawn have worked to bring about a very significant decline in UVF violence

  • gareth mccord

    belfastpaul
    yes dawn has turned up and told the leader of pup/uvf bunter “mi5” graham to wise up and reduce activity and so on?
    WAKE UP!!

  • nonsense

    comrade stalin

    I dont actually disagree with you. And while I dont think I would support a new york type approach, I do agree that the criminal justice system can make a huge impact on those criminal elements, paramilitary or otherwise who degrade our communities.

    I disagree only slightly with your statement around not seeing a difference between paramilitarism and regular criminality…I think there are just so many paramilitaries of varying degrees of activity that I find it impossible to say that they are (a) all ‘bad’ people who are beyond redemption (i use that with no religious connotations) and (b) that they would have all been involved in criminal activity had it not been for our conflict.

    With this in mind I would simply say that the further we get from the end of conflict (quite some time ago now) the higher the concentration of younger membership and criminal elements, thankfully for all of us it is still an older guard in leadership positions who see the need for change (Republican and Loyalist) and the longer this goes on the harder it is to control these young and criminally minded ‘gang members’.

    In theory I agree, they shouldnt exist and we need to remove them from society – the problem is that they came from this society and had/have the support/cover of society (regardless of your claims in certain concentrated areas support is still very high unfortunately)

    If the UVF were to disband tomorrow or the IRA army council were to be dismantled as some would ask, I think it would be a catastrophe….although I would very much like to see the day that this will happen, in the current climate, with all of those paramitaries out there- some nothing more than scumbags and thieves…it would be a management nightmare and as distasteful as it is those more responsible paramiltaries who recognise that they need to disappear have to manage that disappearance themselves to prevent chaos and huge levels of criminality.

    It is an impossible situation and that is why it took the IRA so long and why Loyalism is even further behind (no political strength to counter lack of military strength)

    I think the most important thing the IRA and UVF can do is to continue to manage the membership they have, encouraging them to take a political or community and legitimate interest…those who refuse are left to the criminal justice system (and communities are encouraged to work with the police to remove that element from society).

    The IRA and UVF exist and will continue to do so for the time being..regardless of how we wish it otherwise. The best thing to do from now is.

    Encourage membership to take a positive role in society.
    Function and support the criminal justice system – including expelling and isolating those who will not fit it with new situation.
    End recruitment..meaning a natural end will come….rinse and repeat until we are back to normal.

  • gareth mccord

    NONSENSE
    some fair comment but what do you think the leaders of pup/uvf should deal with current murder investigations?

  • nonsense

    gareth

    Glad you could join us in a more constructive way :-), you will find you will get far further if you dont just scream and shout about black propaganda.

    The answer is I dont know – and I dont know what they can do, like lots of things in this country and conflict it has happened and no matter how much we wish things were different they cant be undone. I realise that is no conciliation to you and your family (who have a legitimate case but are going about it all the wrong way in my humble opinion).

    I think what we all can do is to ensure that it doesnt happen again and the best way to do that is to make it possible for paramilitaries to disappear, screaming and shouting about it wont make it happen, locking them all wont even do it unfortunately.

    No matter what you think of the PUP and the UVF the former is definately trying to move the latter to the point of transformation/disappearence and the latter is in the process of trying to transform itself…a good thing for everyone and while I and many others (you included probably) wish it would be faster and more definitive I think we move to a normal society as quickly as we possibly can.

    Specifically in relation to your brothers case (from the little I know about it) I cant imagine the UVF are any happier about it than you (obviously excluding your grief – I mean the event itself) – they find themselves with the embarrassment of a renegade special agent in their midst abusing the ‘authority’ the gave him…I would imagine if they had a time machine they would ensure your brother wasnt harmed..but they dont and I have no idea what they can do about it now except change

    Out of curiosity what exactly is it you expect from them…or anyone else for that matter?

  • gareth mccord

    nonsense
    there is no failing in screaming and shouting about the TRUTH (not black propaganda)!!
    The truth needs to be told in whatever way is necessary to be heard and seen!
    You say we have a “legitimate case but are going about it in the wrong way”, then say about my brothers case “from little i know about it”.??
    Surely you would need to know about the case to judge we are going about it in the wrong way.
    Also the so called RENEGADE agent is not on his own.The commander of the UVF over the last 15 years is bunter “MI5” GRAHAM.
    Up to 30 murders the UVF have commited since their CEASEFIRE and yet nobody charged with any murder?? THINK ABOUT IT SHERLOCK!
    What advice would you give our family and other families like us? Considering their loved ones were murdered by UVF scum who were and are being paid by our government? Also dont forget we went to the police and unionist politicians 9 years ago with the info on the murders and that they are paid informants free from being convicted!!
    Also dont forget the past and current death threats and attempts made on our family, which the PUP deny! I look forward to your guidence on were we have been going wrong? Just one more point how many more men would the UVF have killed if it wasnt for our campaign to highlight the working of the UVF INFORMANTS from BUNTER “MI5” GRAHAM right down to their puppets in PUP???
    What i and the rest of n.ireland expect is TRUTH JUSTICE and PEACE not on their terms!!

  • Bemused

    Slightly off topic I know, but has anyone ever seen the like of this – easily the most hilarious/risible/disturbingly preposterous nonsense i’ve seen in years.

  • impartial observer

    Bemused,
    The noticeable thing about this video is that they appeared to have only one clip of the subject and he didn’t look none too happy in this.-not a bit flattering…

    The problem for opponents of the McCord family is that the family play it straight down the middle and they have 100% consistency and credibility in how they fight for justice foe thrir loved one. Truly they should be proud of their efforts.

  • gareth mccord

    bemused
    you’ve made my weekend:-)
    JUSTICE FOR THE VICTIMS HE MURDERED UNDER HIS DIRECTION!!

  • lamar

    Perhaps the million quid is going towards a uda sound studio.

    Was this guy on x factor ??!!??

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vcCTu_b3QI

  • Sick and Tired of Hearing about this Crap

    Gareth,

    You do a hell of a lot of nonsensical screaming and shouting – and why don’t you and Raymond Senior come clean about your family’s involvement in paramilitary gangsterism. Live by the sword… and all that.