Ireland take on South Africa

Ireland’s Cricket World Cup adventure continues today with a match against South Africa who, wobbles aside, have only lost to Australia in the competition so far. There’s some advice here and some encouraging words from Ireland’s next coach. Coverage, 2.30pm 2.45pm start, can be found via the usual suspects.. and there’s radio commentary again. Update South Africa win the toss and will bowl first Another rain delay And they’re back, game reduced to 46 overs Back after more rain. Match is reduced to 35 overs a side. Messrs Duckworth and Lewis will be required Total Ireland 152-8 from 35 overs. Dissappointing late wickets lost. Apparently D-L target of 153 160.. Now South Africa 165-3 from 31.4 overs Final result, a win for South Africa. But Ireland pushed them close in the conditions, just not close enough.. but it was against the current No 1 ranked one-day side.

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  • The World’s Gone Mad

    Interesting story about Irish hero Niall O’Brien on the beeb’s website today

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/counties/ireland/6520335.stm

    Some of Slugger’s commenters slagged off Ed Joyce for taking the Queen’s shilling and comparing him to the ‘giants of Irish cricket’ – one of whom was a former representative of Australia and now O’Brien who will join Joyce in attempting to play for England.

    Given England’s recent travails with wicket-keepers he has a decent chance of pushing for representative honours. His quote says it all – “For the time being I want to play well for Ireland at the World Cup then cement my place in the Northants first XI. But at the end of the day I want to play Test cricket at the highest level.”

    That last bit says it all – ‘at the end of the day I want to play Test cricket at the highest level’ – those who naively criticise Ed Joyce for switching allegiances simply are not aware of the realities of top-level cricket and should bear in mind that you cannot play at the highest level for Ireland.

    Good luck to Joyce and O’Brien (if he makes the switch) – as a supporter of English cricket I hope they both become invaluable additions to the England Test Team (god knows, they could do with them).

  • againstthehead

    bit sad that the old cricket bloggs don’t seem to be picked up the interest compared to when the irish team was winning. only sing when we’re winning eh?
    just to be in the tournament was a tremendous achievement, never mind progressing to the final stages.
    no doubt these fair weather supporters will be jumping on the rugby bandwagon come world cup.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    “those who naively criticise Ed Joyce for switching allegiances simply are not aware of the realities of top-level cricket and should bear in mind that you cannot play at the highest level for Ireland”

    Posted by The World’s Gone Mad on Apr 03, 2007 @ 01:58 PM

    Very well put mate, people who criticized Joycey are letting their bigotry and prejudices cloud their judgement. Lord’s is not only the home of English cricket, but the home of cricket full stop. To be selected for a country with so much standing in the International Cricketing community and in a side that has not only the best all-rounder, but also the best One-Day batsman in World Cricket, is not an opportunity to turn down.

    I played cricket from 4th year through to Lower Sixth for a prestigious grammar school in East Londonderry and have always loved the game, supporting England and Lancashire in County Cricket (I’m a die-hard Manchester United fan and Old Trafford Football and Cricket Grounds are less than a ten minute walk apart so I started supporting Lancashire as I seen them as representing my team’s home city and county). Playing-wise I never took it too seriously as I was a keen footballer and badminton player so those sports got in the way at times and took precedence, but I did regularly make the 1st XI at my age-group until I dropped the sport in my final year.

    I have to say that I’m a fierce opponent of All-Ireland sporting teams for a number of reasons, not just because of the constitutional question, but I did want Ireland to qualify with England as there are 5 Ulstermen in the side and not only that, it’s good for the game on the island. Like Ice Hockey, which has been a huge success in Belfast, cricket is an inclusive sport and should be embraced and given the media/press exposure it deserves. If less of the UTV Live and BBC Newsline’s sports coverage was taken up with GAA reports on club sides in the arse-end of nowhere that only nationalist/republican viwers will have any interest in, maybe then an inclusive sport like cricket would receive the coverage it deserves post-World Cup…

  • George

    The World’s Gone Mad,
    I don’t think any cricket fans in Ireland could or would begrudge Joyce for wanting to play test cricket for England. Especially if he plays like he did against Ireland.

    It’s the equivalent of denying Kevin Doyle the chance of Premiership football with Reading and demanding he stay at Cork City.

    Concerned loyalist,
    you begin all fluffy about prejudice and bigotry but it’s unfortunate you just couldn’t get to the end of your without spitting out your own prejudices against the GAA. Cross’s victory was a major sporting event you know.

  • covers off 16:16 reduced to 47 over match

  • 2 per over is shite even for geoff boycott, what’s the game plan here, don’t lose wickets ok, but don’t score runs not ok.
    any analysts here to put me in me place 🙂

  • smcgiff

    ‘should bear in mind that you cannot play at the highest level for Ireland.’

    And there’s F all chance of Ireland being able to play test cricket if the cream is siphoned off to another country.

    Not only does this damage Ireland’s cricket team, it seriously damages the game of cricket. At the moment it’s only a minority game, practically considered a joke outside of Pakistan and India, which are giants of which other sport?

    Frankly, that Joyce could help Ireland qualify for the world cup and then play against them smacks of something you’d see happening in some hick country in-school competition.

    I don’t blame Joyce for wanting to play cricket to the highest level, it’s just a pity that he cannot do that for Ireland.

    Anyway, looks like Ireland are finally playing against the big boys.

  • Pete Baker

    They’re back again.. 35 over match now

    40-2 from 16 overs

  • smcgiff

    Good to see they’ve picked up the run rate.

  • Cahal

    Dear lord, I always find CL’s posts overwhelmingly depressing. He’s becoming a parody of himself.

    Come on Ireland…keep it going….

    What’s a decent total for SA to chase off 35 overs? Any cricket buffs know?

  • sweet grape

    “If less of the UTV Live and BBC Newsline’s sports coverage was taken up with GAA reports on club sides in the arse-end of nowhere that only nationalist/republican viwers will have any interest in…”

    —-

    Ah sure that sounds a little bit sour grapes CL – sure even the UUP are cheering on their local GAA now – and in an are where the GAA play God Save The Queen in Croke Park and where cricket mania sweeps Ireland surely there’s no reason for them not to! 🙂

    Just lost another wicket though…

  • sweet grape
  • doing pretty good right now…
    cahal 180 maybe… even the commentators don’t know how to work out Duckworth/Lewis 😉

  • Ireland are going well, could this be the upset?

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    CL
    I agree with your first para, but not necessary your last para. If people are interested, the media will report it. The GAA has a huge following in Northern Ireland and BBC and UTV reflect this. Hopefully the interest generated by Ireland’s success will mean that more people, be it the media, kids, potential supporters, will start showing more interest in cricket.

    George
    ‘I don’t think any cricket fans in Ireland could or would begrudge Joyce for wanting to play test cricket for England.’
    Maybe not cricket fans, but there were others who have criticised him, including some serious begrudgery on Slugger.

    ‘Especially if he plays like he did against Ireland.’
    LOL

    smcgiff
    ‘And there’s F all chance of Ireland being able to play test cricket if the cream is siphoned off to another country.’
    Yes, its a quandary for good Irish players – I’m sure the decision was not taken lightly. Whether O’Brien and Joyce stayed or not, there is pobably F all chance of Ireland playing Test Cricket during their careers.

    ‘Not only does this damage Ireland’s cricket team, it seriously damages the game of cricket. At the moment it’s only a minority game, practically considered a joke outside of Pakistan and India, which are giants of which other sport? ‘
    Let’s take Pakistan for a start – they have been hockey world champions a record 4 times, and Olympic Champions 3 times, not to mention their success on a squash court. India have also dominated hockey at the Olympics. At the last Commonwealth Games they took home 50 medals.

    As for ‘practically considered a joke outside of Pakistan and India’ – in Australia, who are giants of many other sports – cricket is arguably the only truly national sport – those who wear the Baggy Green are venerated like no other sportsperson in Oz. In England it is the national summer sport and look at those crowds after the Ashes win; in the Carribean it has a huge (if declining) following; in New Zealand the Black Caps are second only to the All-Blacks; its the national sport of Bangladesh. Etc etc.

  • c’mon ireland another one gone 3 wickets 84 runs, its do-able

  • kensei

    “Yes, its a quandary for good Irish players – I’m sure the decision was not taken lightly. Whether O’Brien and Joyce stayed or not, there is pobably F all chance of Ireland playing Test Cricket during their careers.”

    Not that i care either way because crickett is zzzzzzzzzzzz, but it shouldn’t be a matter for the players, though, because on a personal level with the gap that big everyone is going to to plump for the chance of top class action.

    It is the ruling body that should step in. Even they recognise that Cricket needs to expand, hence the inclusion of so many associate nations for the WC. And the best chance to expand initially lies in the places that have larger teams around them and the chance of the odd upset and rivalry, and large pool next to them that might have people qualifying through the grandparent rule. So Joyce should at a minimum be playing one day cricket for Ireland and Test cricket for England, until the point Ireland can have it’s only test team. It would be shit, but that’s just what you have to go through to get better and encourage others to play.

    Football is brilliant at this, to the point where there are few easy internationals anymore. Rugby has started learning a bit. Cricket doesn’t seem to want to.

  • catches win matches, we’ve dropped several chances and I’m afraid that’s the lesson for Ireland. Its very tough.

  • IJP

    Kensei

    So it’s OK for the FAI to steal soccer players from the North, but not for the ECB to steal cricketers from Ireland? 🙂

    As it happens, I totally agree. There is no reason the test and one-day international games can’t be distinguished in the way you suggest.

  • Pete Baker

    “There is no reason the test and one-day international games can’t be distinguished in the way you suggest.”

    IJP

    Apart from the rather obvious fact that both test and one-day teams are supposed to be drawn from the same eligible pool of players..

    To draw an inappropriate analogy, it’s like arguing that a talented under-21 soccer player could play for the under-21 Republic of Ireland side and, at the same time, the full England side because he had been living, and playing, in London for a certain number of years.

  • FewsOrange

    One solution could be to make the England test team a “Lions” type team picking the best players from Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. This is pretty much what happens now as players from all four have played for England.

    Players could also play for individual one day international teams.

  • FAP

    What has the world come to when Irishmen end up following cricket? San Beckett aside, the last person of note who played cricket in Ireland also founded the GAA.
    Ireland no more belongs in the corrupt cricket world cup than San Marino or NI do in the soccer world cup.

  • Donnacha

    Get a life, FAP, ffs. And CL, who’s this world’s best all-rounder bloke in the team with Joyce? Sean Pollock? Or do you mean Kallis, the leading test allrounder?

  • abucs

    Isn’t it the ICC that bars Ireland from playing test cricket ?

    I don’t mean to be critical but if they actually say to certain countries – you can’t play test cricket, then surely in those circumstances players in those juristictions should be able to opt to play for countries who are allowed, whilst still representing their country in those forms of the game they are allowed to play ?

    I’m not being critical of the ICC setup. Perhaps they have become a victom of their own success with the spreading of the game ?

  • merrie

    I hope that cricket becomes a more important sport in Ireland so that its top cricketers do not have to play for another country in order to get good international games.

    It wasn’t all that long ago that Sri Lanka joined international cricket and countries do not have to be rich and powerful for cricket to thrive. The West Indies had for around a decade the best cricket team in the world.

    Ireland and Australia have a unique sporting contest when they play International Rules – a mixture of Irish and Aussie Rules football. So it could be too with cricket. I’d like to see a Prime Minister’s XI (Australia vs Ireland) and maybe a reciprocal game in Ireland (Taiosech XI vs Australia).

    I went to the first (ie tradition revived by Bob Hawke) Prime Minister’s XI vs WIndies at Manuka Oval where Australia was quite thoroughly thrashed even though the WIndies bowled underarm towards the end to give the Aussies a few more runs.

    And after a few such games maybe Ireland can join the annual summer three-country series in Australia… then onto regular test matches.

  • smcgiff

    I’ll make one other point where by I think Joyce playing for England makes no sense…

    Would those that think Joyce playing for England be as understanding in the following scenario…

    After the disasterous 2004 Euro qualification, what if Healy (if able) joined England on the basis he’d have no chance of playing finals football with a team like Northern Ireland. Now, at the end of 2004 there’d be few to say Northern Ireland’s prospects were anything but dismal on that front, but look what’s happened 4 years later?

    So, would Concerned Loyalist or others have understood if Healy opted to tog out in the three lions shirt post 2004 euro campaign?

    As for the result yesterday, I think it was a good result running South Africa to within a few overs.

  • IJP

    Taiosech XI vs Australia

    It’s an all-Ireland team, Merrie! Don’t start that again!

    Martin McGuinness is known to be a cricket fan, so perhaps a “Deputy First Minister XI” would be the best bet…

  • kensei

    “So it’s OK for the FAI to steal soccer players from the North, but not for the ECB to steal cricketers from Ireland? :)”

    Ireland playing Irish players isn’t stealing form anyone 🙂

    “Apart from the rather obvious fact that both test and one-day teams are supposed to be drawn from the same eligible pool of players..

    To draw an inappropriate analogy, it’s like arguing that a talented under-21 soccer player could play for the under-21 Republic of Ireland side and, at the same time, the full England side because he had been living, and playing, in London for a certain number of years. ”

    Actually, no Pete, that isn’t a valid comparison. A valid comparison would be if Ireland only played ‘B’ international football and England played both. The eligibility rules merely need rewritten so that you are eligible for the your country or nearest country playing at a particular level.

    It is messy, but if you are serious about expanding the popularity of the sport, then maybe you have to be messy. The alternative is to force all Associate Nations to play Test cricket and play matches and allow them to develop, a la football.

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    Kensei – not sure about the practicalities of your suggestion, but I thought it wasn’t bad.

    smcgiff – you’ll have to try harder. Once you’ve played representative football for one country in a proper match, you cannot play for another country.

    “FIFA Regulations Regarding the Eligibility and Release of International Players
    Regulations Governing the Application of Statutes

    Chapter VIII. Nationality of Players

    Art. 18

    2. If a player has been included in a national or representative team of a country for which he is eligible to play pursuant to §1, he shall not be permitted to take part in an international match for another country.”

    So your argument is a moot point.

  • merrie

    IJP: I am a Nationalist, so I think a Taiosech XI is for all-Ireland. Don’t mind a Deputy First Minister XI for the time being though – but just for the six counties. Good to know that McGuinness likes cricket too.

    The World’s Gone Mad: Does the International Cricketing Board have the same rules as the FIFA ones you mentioned? (I thought Joyce played for Ireland and then moved onto to the England team)

    If so, I think the rules should be changed for countries who have world-class players who go to another country to play at that level. When the country achieves world-class status itself, it should be allowed to have those players back.

    It would be really good for international cricket if Ireland did become world-class. The more countries playing at top level, the better.

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    ‘Does the International Cricketing Board have the same rules as the FIFA ones’

    I don’t think so – Kepler Wessels played for Australia and South Africa. Jeremy Bray, who’s currently playing for Ireland once represented Australia at under-19 level. And Joyce was a mainstay of Ireland for a number of years before moving to England. However, at the time, both Joyce and Wessels had little chance of representing their own country at Test level.

    I think that residency is all-important: //www.icc-cricket.com/icc/rules/player_eligibility.pdf. Joyce is getting slagged off but unlike say Ray Houghton (or possibly Kingsley Black) he has at least lived in the country he represents at some stage in his life.

    You’re right though – if it doesn’t work out for Joyce and O’Brien – they should be allowed back to play for Ireland. If the Irish will have them, and if they are prepared to swallow their pride.

  • smcgiff

    Jaysus, WGM, tell me something I don’t know.

    I know my scenario wasn’t possible. It was a ‘what if’.

    My point is that cricket should have sensible rules like Association Football or be seen as a sport not to be given much allegiance.

    Back to my original what if – If FIFA had changed the rules in 2004 and allowed players to move around countries, would you have slapped Healy on the back and wished him well for England?

  • JG

    Cricket, like Rugby Union, does not follow nationality but requirements as to where you play the game.

  • Radishchev

    Comparisons with football, especially relating to players who have already played for a country at senior level, are disingenuous. If you want a fairer comparison, think about using two different pools of players for full international rugby vs. rugby sevens. It would be chaos. Besides, FIFA’s model for assessing eligbility to play for a given country is hardly watertight.

    Any plan to have all or even more than a couple of the current Associate nations playing Test cricket is so absurd as to invite ridicule. Expect the ICC to cut back the number of Associates at the next World Cup as well..

  • smcgiff

    ‘Cricket, like Rugby Union, does not follow nationality but requirements as to where you play the game.’

    *groan*

    Anybody want to tackle my David Healy ‘what if’?

  • Radishchev

    Incidentally, for the discerning fan, that was a hell of a game this evening!

  • Pete Baker

    Indeed, Radishchev.

    Great game. Best of the tournament so far.

  • Radishchev

    smcgiff,

    What bit of ‘disingenuous’ did you not get? 🙂

    Seriously though, the two situations are very different. Test cricket is simply not on the cards for Ireland in the next ten years, by which time Joyce will have finished his international career. Healy, on the other hand, has a chance to qualify for a major tournament with Norn Iron every two years. It may not be likely, but it is still possible.

    The resentment from certain nationalist corners to ‘the Joyce dilemna’ has come up before on Slugger and continues to annoy me. One could certainly point to the reactions from within the Irish camp. Beyond a bit of entirely understandable leg-pulling (especially given his form), there is no sense in which the Irish cricket team resent the decision that Joyce made, so why should anyone else.

  • kensei

    “Comparisons with football, especially relating to players who have already played for a country at senior level, are disingenuous. If you want a fairer comparison, think about using two different pools of players for full international rugby vs. rugby sevens. It would be chaos.”

    Are they separate competitions? Are there any countries that that ONLY play sevens? Why would it be chaos?

    “Any plan to have all or even more than a couple of the current Associate nations playing Test cricket is so absurd as to invite ridicule. Expect the ICC to cut back the number of Associates at the next World Cup as well.. ”

    Again, why? Andorra play football, San Marino play football as do many other countries that have no background. And many teams have been terrible in the past, but are now playing at a half decent level, certainly not enough to invite ridicule – a lot African teams, South Korea, Japan, America. the teams could maybe play qualifying test matches to play the bigger nations.

    The whole reason for increasing the number of associates, as I read on the BBC was because they didn’t think they were sustainable with only 8 or 9 Test playing nations. Why would they go back, particularly when there have been a few upsets?

  • Radishchev

    Kensei,

    Yes, rugby and rugby sevens are separate competitions – there is a separate world cup, for example. There are some minor differences in rules, as there are between test and one day cricket. Although there are no countries who ONLY play sevens rugby, in a meaningful sense, there are definitely some who perform to a decent standard in one form (i.e. sevens) whilst being wholly outclassed at the other.

    Your argument on cricket could therefore be applied to rugby. Let’s bring Spain (not too far off, as it stands), Portugal, Russia and Germany into the Six Nations – after all, it’s the only way that they’ll improve and spread the game. Then try to sell the idea to the Six Nations committee.

    The choas point was in relation to the potential cross-over in player pools.

    On the associates, I know exactly how the ICC tried to sell the concept of an enlarged World Cup, but it appears to be backfiring badly on them. The ICC is interested primarily in filthy lucre, which it gets from TV revenue. Much fun though it is for the Associates in causing an upset, it has been at the expense of a huge source of revenue and support – India and Pakistan. I do not doubt for a second that the ICC is committed to developing the Associate nations, but not at the expense of their traditional power base.

    Your point on the developments in relation to footballing minnows is perfectly fair, but (to state the obvious) cricket is not football. By the same token, don’t assume that because a side is capable of competing in the one-day game, that they can make the jump to test cricket. Case in point, England – a thoroughly decent test side (2nd in the world), but a nervy one-day side (7th in the world).