Adams makes first worthwhile appeal over McCartney murder…

TWO years to the day since the Robert McCartney murder, Gerry Adams has urged republicans who have information on the killing (and there must be a few) to hand it over to the police. The official DUP response is still awaited, but I hear Jim Allister is still far from happy.

  • I feel sorry for the McCartney sisters. They were used as political footballs and led to believe that the Unionist politicians actually cared about them and their brother – then promptly dropped when the climate suited.

  • heck

    i agree. These ladies lost their brother and then were used by the government and media to stop the rise of SF at the last election.

    I have still not read who organized their visit to the white house. As I said at the time the mothers of dead iraqi soldiers could not get a meeting with the president but the McCartney sisters did!!!

    Which government requested this.

  • Perhaps Jim Allister’s cynicism towards contrived Sinn Fein/IRA PR stunts might be assauged if Mr Adams urges republicans with any knowledge of whatever IRA warlord ordered the bombing of La Mon House and putative wannabe DFM Mr Mc Guinness urges republicans in the north-west who have knowledge of whatever IRA warlord ordered the bombing of Claudy to provide all such evidence to the police.

    Then, shoring up unionist confidence, republicans can show their alleged support for law and order by providing police with names of all IRA terrorists known to them.

    Oh, and when it comes to stomach-churning hypocrisy, Adams words on the slaughter of Mr McCartney take some beating. Swallowed by a biased msm, repeated by republican trolls.

  • Double Standards

    Gonzo do you actually read the comments on this and other topics on this site what kind of moderator are you? Time and time again posters have left links and quote Sinn Fein asking for anyone with evidence to come forward so this is clearly not the “first worthwhile”appeal.

    Funny I haven’t heard the same calls for witness against Special Branch handlers (and there must be a few of them) of UVF serial killers behind bars, hell they can’t even follow the money trail. Are we supposed to believe that the Special Branch didn’t keep financial records of who was being paid and how much and nobody but nobody has any evidence that would convict a single one. Is there people are reticent to come forward to give information about any crime let alone murder to these people.

  • Inspector Clouseau

    First of all let me declare that I have always voted DUP when possible.

    I do not believe that Jim Allister would share power with SF under any circumstances. The vast majority of DUP voters don’t want to share power with republicans but know that not doing so could disenfranchise unionism from having any worthwhile political influence.

  • Double Standards

    DV

    Why stop at Sinn Fein? Sounds like one sided whataboutery to me! Would you not urge politicians of all ilk to come forward with information concerning any murder or crime committed by republican, unionist or state.

  • Double Standards

    Inspector Closeau

    I admire your honesty on the the DUP position. But if anything wouldn’t Unionist be less disenfranchised in a devolved government and they would indeed have more political influnce than at present when water charges and school closures are being imposed upon us all.

  • david

    Mr Vance

    Perhaps you could also persuade Mr Paisley/Robinson/Wilson/MCr to tell us about their dealings with the uvf during the 1970’s, the behind the scenes meetings with the third force (uvf,uda) and the loyalist negotiations about arms dealers from South Africa.

    Are you for real Vance ???

  • George

    Downhill all the way here for Sinn Féin and I mean that in the sense that it’s easy street.

    You know unionists are flummoxed about what to do now when they bring up events like Le Mon, an event that happened when the majority of people on this island weren’t born.

    Why are people so afraid of the principle of consent in Northern Ireland?

  • kev

    Without addressing the background of Mr McCartney’s friend (Brendan Devine) on the evening of his death, the initial confrontation & the family linkage between the disturbance – its impossible to read the real circumstance of the killing.

    The criminal underworld has a habit of making headlines from time to time.

  • McGrath

    Posted by David Vance on Jan 31, 2007 @ 11:03 PM

    Yet more grievance culture.

    Your proposals would only lead to endless, pointless, zero sum bartering. Maybe that’s what you really want?

    I honestly think unionism is starting to run out of excuses.

  • Here’s the craic – In November 2003 Devine and Applegoat McCormick attack a bouncer outside a club in Belfast city centre. They were convicted in December 2006 for this.
    A few months after the Nov 03 attack Applegoat and Devine fall out. Devine gives Applegoat a hiding.
    Roll on January 2006 and Devine, while out on bail for a Securicor van robbery in February 2004, is boozing with Bert McCartney in Maginnes’s bar.
    He gets into a row with Applegoat’s brother Dim McCormick (at the time a leading republican from the Markets). All hell breaks loose – Devine has his throat cut and Bert is murdered.
    In June 2005 Devine is sentenced to five years in jail for robbing the Securicor van.

    These are the circumstances Kev is referring to.

  • BeardyBoy

    The sisters have not got my sympathy – they knew who they were using and they knew they were being used.

    If it was their brother who did the killing I wonder if they would be so vociferous about getting the evil perpetrator(s)?

  • Token Dissent

    I am appalled by BeardyBoy’s comments. Regardless of the character of him or his mate their brother was killed by a Provo, the Provos then acted to destroy evidence, pervert the course of justice, and put fear into witnesses. Deal with it. And also deal with what it says about the Provos and their sickening criticism of others’ human rights record.

    The sisters bravely fought their corner in a climate of hate. Why shouldn’t they use the support of unionists? Are all unionists beyond the pale for you? Should they just have kept quiet? What does it say about republicanism that they had to go outside of the tribe? It is clear that this murder and cover up HAD to be a political issue!

    In many ways the McCartney sisters and Raymond McCord Snr are alike – anyone who steps outside of the tribe for help is a traitor or a Lundy. I wish both sets of people every success in their fight for justice and truth. Their possible success would be a superb agent for broader political change.

  • Sean

    David vance : Then, shoring up unionist confidence, republicans can show their alleged support for law and order by providing police with names of all IRA terrorists known to them

    hey dave i noticed a particularlarity heinous typo in the above sentence so i thought i would help you correct it

    Then, shoring up unionist confidence, republicans can show their support for “alleged” law and order by providing police with names of all IRA terrorists known to them

    i know it must have been a total over site on your part and we hld no ill will

  • BeardyBoy

    Regardless of the character of him or his mate their brother was killed by a Provo, the Provos then acted to destroy evidence, pervert the course of justice, and put fear into witnesses.

    And the point being?

    Deal with it.
    Deal with what exactly?

    And also deal with what it says about the Provos and their sickening criticism of others’ human rights record.
    Adams says to inform – he is supporting their “rights” surely?

    The sisters bravely fought their corner in a climate of hate. Why shouldn’t they use the support of unionists?

    No reason whatsoever – they are free do so

    Are all unionists beyond the pale for you? Should they just have kept quiet?

    They are no more beyond any pale that anyone else and it is up to them if they speak or not. What did I say about Unionists? seems you see a slight against Unionism in anything you do not agree with.

    What does it say about republicanism that they had to go outside of the tribe?
    SDLP supported them, FF supported them, FG supported them, so they got support “within the tribe”. This post says more about your attitude than mine. You see every issue as a them and us.

    It is clear that this murder and cover up HAD to be a political issue
    Had? I am cynical enough to say it was a political issue because politicians wanted it to be. many othr equally horrible killings were not.

    Yet again I state – they got what they wanted – they must have known they were being used and they were quite happy with it. I therefore do not feel any sympathy for them now the politicos no longer have any use for them, they will go back into the obscurity from whence they came – just as many more have done before.

  • DMCM

    Its a sad day when a man gets murdered in a busy pub and no-one comes forward with evidence.
    Beardy Boy, if you have any family members you are close to, imagine one of them were murdered outside a bar and no-one came forward to give evidence, I BET YOU would think differently about these sisters. I personally, think they are very brave people who put family first.
    I wish the McCartney family closure on this. There is no such thing as justice when it comes to losing somebody.
    I hope nobody in the future is considered above the law, regardless of what organization they belong to.

  • aquifer

    The McCartney sisters reminded us that murder is murder and should never be tolerated. Thanks.

  • pith

    Inspector Closeau, “The vast majority of DUP voters don’t want to share power with republicans but know that not doing so could disenfranchise unionism from having any worthwhile political influence.”

    Is that a new realisation among DUP voters or is it something they have believed for some time?

    I am not criticising your assertion, just seeking clarification.

  • steven

    Its a long time in coming, but it is progress.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Are you for real Vance ???

    No, he isn’t.

    We need to be honest with ourselves here – nobody in Northern Ireland is going to come forward and start giving evidence on what has happened in the past three decades.

    The people being particularly naive here are the unionists. Unionist politicians work in the community. The identities of the local loyalist paramilitaries are known to them, as well as to the police. There is even a long history of unionist politicians – to be polite about it – coming pretty close to the wire when it came to thuggery – UWC, Vanguard, Ulster Resistance, Third Force. I have a very hard time believing that people like Nigel Dodds and Jim Alastair can’t for the life of them remember the names of any of the people who organized and/or provided the paramilitary muscle behind those events. Are UUP and DUP politicians going to come out and start naming those people in public ? That is where this is going to go.

    If unionists really want a truth and reconciliation commission, then they should say so, otherwise shut up – at least for the time being. Ditto regarding republicans and the RUC’s history.

  • nmc

    If it were a loved one of my own I would not rest until I had justice. I can understand their pain and loss, and if I thought of myself being stabbed/beaten to death I would hope my three sisters would bitch until kingdom come, (and I suspect they would).

    DV

    When it comes to stomach-churning hypocrisy the DUP come out top. From: There was no place for Sinn Fein in the Government of Northern Ireland. “It will be over our dead bodies.” to preparing for powersharing in 8 months. Talk about a turnaround.

    Plus the talk of law and order is a joke given the recent report on collusion. You think Unionists are the only people who can live a legal above board life, when it is the Unionists and only them that are carrying out state sanctioned murder.

  • URQUHART

    Adams is shameless. Shameless.

  • Crataegus

    As far as I am concerned the whole dam lot, Unionist and Republican, could do a lot more to unravel the criminal webs. It is as much about all of us doing what is right. No politician can make me do what I fear, but they can help to set the tone of the background that makes it easier. They can also do much to correct the ‘faults’ in the Police Service for that is crucial. There are many individuals with information, but because they are isolated are afraid to come forward.

    Positive statement by Adams and that in itself should be welcome.

  • kadenza

    A By the by. Have any of the Ulster Resistance weapons ever been found?

    If not, and given republican decommissioning, surely a not unreasonable test of DUP true support for the police, is for the former members of Ulster Resistance in the DUP at the time or subsequently joined to provide, on record, as much information on who else was in UR and there knowledge of those behind the weapons importation.

    David Vance – your post is nee-conism at its most hypocritical.

  • Token Dissent

    Beardy I am simply highlighting that you seem to be stating that campaigning for the conviction of their brother’s murder makes the McCartneys some how weak or politicialy suspect. You appear to have more sympathy for the killer(s) who are suffering during the “vociferous” hunt for them. It takes a very twisted and insecure mindset to reach this conclusion.

    I was also find it hard to accept that Adams is fully supporting their rights. He is the leader of the organisation responsible for the murder and the cover up, and this organisation still shelters and protects the scum involved.

    Your use of the word “inform” is telling. Old quasi-military habits die hard don’t they.

    When you say “they knew who they were dealing with” – who do you mean? If you follow the thread it points to unease that the government, the US and unionists were dealt with, hence my query about who of these people is beyond the pale for you. Is it ok to canvass Ted Kennedy but not Reggie Empey, or vice-versa?

    The reason why this murder receives so much press is because it brings into focus the uneasy (to say the least) relationship between Sinn Fein and justice, at a time when they have become ‘respectable’ and will soon be in power.

    Maybe you didn’t read the last bit of my comment re. McCord. From this you should understand that my criticism extends to the reactionary nature of unionism and republicanism around the issue of breaking ranks.

    To state that “they got what they wanted” is simply nonsense. Nobody has been convicted yet – that is the family’s aim.

  • Cromwell

    Maybe The Beard should report for questioning because he & every other Sinner knows who did it.
    As for nmc above & only “Unionists & only them carrying out state sanctioned murder” catch yerself on pal. Are you such a po-faced republican you cant take a look around you. I patiently await a report on Irish State, Garda & IRA collusion with & without British Crown Forces. I wont be holding my breath.

  • Token Dissent

    Comrade Stalin, you are 100% right re. unionists and their use of loyalists down the years. There are huge memory holes regarding the UWC strike etc.

    It is especially annoying to hear Donaldson make a personal attack on McCord saying “he knew his son was in the UVF”.

    Confront your history!

  • padraig

    cheap international calls and heck exemplify the arrogant and patronising tone which Shinners are now known for. The McCartney family knew what they were taking on and they did it with dignity and courage.

    I think it’s a bit sick of the SS (Shinner Sycopahnts) to try and score cheap political points here on the Slug, by diverting the thread away from the title. Clearly they would prefer to be having their well-rehearsed pop at the Unionists (dropping the family), DUP (holding the process up), SDLP (jumping too soon on policing), “the Brits” (collusion with loyalist death squads) or anyone else for that matter!

    Face it – a vote for the SF is an endorsement for the tradition from which they came, namely the IRA; a tradition which saw the treasonous murder of their fellow countrymen. Sadly Robert McCartney is an example of this treason.

    Shame on the Shinners

  • Double Standards

    Padraig

    Time to grow up and accept people on here may have a different point of view than you and are entitled as you are to express their opinion. Indeed if you read your last post it is you who seem to be scoring cheap political points.

  • Northsider

    I think people need to take a step back and look at what the McCartneys are demanding: Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams to go the police and tell them who killed their brother.

    Ok – imagine an alternative universe where Gerry Adams does just that. Do the police arrest the named individual on the word of a person who wasn’t even there on the night? Would a prosecution even have a case based on the word of someone who wasn’t even present?

    No chance.

    Arrests have been made in this murder. A case is being built. But still the family want to make theirs a special case and COMPEL all who were in the bar that night to make a statement. They have chosen to do this through the media and with the backing of politicians and journalists vehemently opposed to Sinn Fein.

    Given that, and their statement on Adams, I think any sympathy or understanding from many in nationalist community (including among SDLP supporters) is rapidly evaporating.

    That they chose this moment when recalcitrant bigtos in the DUP are trying to find more ways to avoiding sharing power with nationalists to tie their case to the whole political process is ridiculous.

    Furthermore, I can only endorse what was said elsewhere on this thread: there are many many crimes where witnesses for reasons other than intimidation simply do not want to come forward and give statements. This is something the press and politicos backing the sisters know – yet conveniently ignore.

  • padraig

    Grow up like you Double Standards and patronise people? Hypocrite! But then I forget, nobody is allowed to critise the Shinners because, to the SS, they do nothing wrong do they? Never have and never will for their sheep like supporters. Now if I said something factually wrong in my 10:30am post then show me, otherwise why bother wasting space on the Slug with such drivel? I suggest that instead of trying to defend these treasonous Irishmen, you should go and get a shovel and try and find any other murder Irishmen, treasonous killed by the Bhoys! You are correct on one point though… I fully accept that people have different points of view. Irish Republicanism should have nothing to do with the abducting, torturing and the eventual murder of your fellow countrymen – others think differently! Like I said, shame on the Shinners!

  • Inspector Clouseau

    Pith,

    In my opinion there has been a growing realisation among DUP grassroots that sharing power with SF is a necessary evil if you like. It is taking a while for the hearts to come into line with our heads over sharing power with SF.

    I think the issue that many DUP supporters wanted to see addressed is that the standard is appropiately set for all participants in goverment. The UUP messed up big time in this regard and provided power sharing at an extremely low price.

    To be brutally honest I believe it has been the intention of DUP negotiators to keep SF out of goverment for as long as possible without losing the possibility of devolved administration at Stormont. They also understand the needed of taking the majority of your base support with you. In the overall scheme of things they seem to be getting measured success.

  • sean

    Northsider,

    I think any sympathy or understanding from many in nationalist community (including among SDLP supporters) is rapidly evaporating.

    WHAT COMPLETE AND UTTER RUBBISH! This is clearly what the Shinners wish was the feeling on the ground. Support for the McCartney’s is as strong as ever and I don’t know one person in the Nationalist community who doesn’t want to see the killers of Robert McCartnet put behind bars AND all the Shinner supporting monkeys who saw nothing, heard nothing and, now they have the green light to go the police, are saying nothing!

  • gimley

    I’m beginning to think David Vance is a troll.

  • Wilde Rover

    It looks like lines are being drawn in the sand by all sides, and I’m not sure that’s such a bad thing.

    While acknowledging the genuine grief and emotion experienced by those directly affected by the troubles, I have developed a growing suspicion about some of those urging this “death by a thousand cuts” scenario.

    I accept the argument by those who seek closure, and the argument by those who seek clarity, but what would the actual mechanics of such an undertaking actually be?

    Would this Whataboutery Expo not mimic the tribunals in the Republic in one fundamental way: the presence of lawyers?

    It’s twelve years since the first ceasefire. Is it right that the children born since then have any chance of a normal life shattered while the adults engage in an orgy of recrimination?

    And who would be the ultimate beneficiaries of this cesspool of negative energy?

    The damn lawyers.

  • bollix

    one minor point – beardy boy stated that the mccartney sisters got what they wanted.
    no they most certaintly did not get they wanted. they have a dead brother, no-one held to account, intimidation of their family and vilification in threads like this.

    it may be unpalatable for people to accept that sometimes “our side” did the bad things. that doesn’t stop it from being true though. don’t let loyalty to a particular cause and justified mistrust of unionists / brits / whatever stop you from accepting the sisters legitimate quest for justice.

    A united ireland isn’t advanced by a squalid murder outside a pub, nor by protecting those involved. if i feel that way as an irishman, how much more so would it seem to our fellow ulstermen who are also british?

  • pith

    Inspector Clouseau,

    Thanks for the clarificaton. To some degree it is a question of whether the DUP sells its position from a moral or from a tactical perspective. To the UUP’s cost, it was never sure which to go with. The once-significant SDLP played the moral card everytime while SF has stuck pretty much with tactical except perhaps at international level.

  • Permit me to deal with some of your comments.

    nmcc,

    I fully agree with your first paragraph, but do remember that DUPlicity is rewarded by more favourable media headlines. The rule is the more you compromise with evil the better PR you get.

    comrade stalin,

    Since I don’t hide beyond a fictional name, I guess I’m more real than you.

    Various Republicans,

    What’s the problem with republicans providing information of the La Mon House savagery or the Claudy atrocity? Is there something you know that we don’t?

    McGrath,

    Seeking justice for the THOUSANDS murdered by the IRA is hardly begrudgery, is it? Perhaps the terror godfathers think they are above justice? What do you think? Is it part of the Republican creed to believe that they can murder with impunity? If so, waken up.

  • Sean

    David Vance

    What is wrong with the police that they can not provide information to the police on their own crimes? Surel this trustworthy gregarious force for goodness and niceness will only be too happy to supply the evidence needed to convict themselves? Ooops thats right whats sauce for the shinners isnt sauce for the RUC

    Put the unionist house in order before you start screaming about the dust bunnies in the republicans house

  • Grassy Knoll

    David Vance, just to try to get a handle on your position, would you be so kind as to tell us your opinion on Ulster Resistance? Were they doing a good thing? Were they terrorists? Should those who promoted them be hounded off the political scene and put behind bars, or are they fit for office? I do not want to sound like I’m leading the witness here, just some pointers…

    A quote from Ian Paisley Junior MLA in an email to Rev Kenny McClinton, and published in the Sunday Tribune (good old Kenny spilled the beans):

    “We couldn’t kill them but we can destroy them and their ideology”

  • mcgrath

    Seeking justice for the THOUSANDS murdered by the IRA is hardly begrudgery, is it? Perhaps the terror godfathers think they are above justice? What do you think? Is it part of the Republican creed to believe that they can murder with impunity? If so, waken up.

    Posted by David Vance on Feb 01, 2007 @ 03:23 PM

    Is colusion and treachery part of unionist creed? etc etc.

    Why the prisioner release under the GF agreement? Simple reason the majority wanted it, and likewise the majority dont want old wounds reopened. It may not be right, it will not make everyone happy.

  • I Wonder

    David V:

    The IRA did not “kill thousands.” You know the statistics from the CAIN website as well as anyone. This exaggeration you have perpetuated across the Internet and you know it to be an untruth.

    I’m interested that you condemn “stomach-churning hypocrisy”. But only, it seems from SF. Interesting, as it would seem that you support freedom of speech but censor my comments on your website. Stomach- churning indeed. You yourself are a hypocrite and you can check out your beloved Bible for what Christ thinks of you.

  • I Wonder

    Grassy Knoll:

    It’d be interesting to find out what someone as fervent in their views as Mr Vance actually did do, when whenever he was confronted with the Anglo Irish Agreement and was of mature age when Ulster Resistance were being formed in his area…

  • Thanks for the feedback guys (and gal) – clearly you either don’t understand my points or won’t understand them.

    I Wonder.

    Hi Jo. Hope the strike went well yesterday. Alas I was not living in Northern Ireland when Ulster Resistance was formed!

    However the next of kin of those slaughtered by the IRA at La Mon House and in Claudy still were still around then – and not a word of interest or indeed wonder from Slugger correspondents about those monsters who organised such atrocities.

    The gross moral bankruptcy of Slugger’s republican hordes stands exposed in your risiblec attempts to divert attention away from IRA complicity in horrendous murders. Of course you trolls all know that I argue for UDA, UVF, INLA, LVF etc terrorists to be locked up, just like Provos, but then since you have all eulogise recently departed UVF men, what can one expect?

    The problem for peace processors is that moral compass is in pieces.

  • McGrath

    The gross moral bankruptcy of Slugger’s republican hordes stands exposed in your risiblec attempts to divert attention away from IRA complicity in horrendous murders. Of course you trolls all know that I argue for UDA, UVF, INLA, LVF etc terrorists to be locked up, just like Provos, but then since you have all eulogise recently departed UVF men, what can one expect?

    The problem for peace processors is that moral compass is in pieces.

    Posted by David Vance on Feb 01, 2007 @ 07:24 PM

    It is pretty pathetic that you revert to measurement of morality when you cant counter valid points. Do you start to sing hymns when you are stuck for an answer?

  • McGrath,

    Ask a sensible question, I’ll try and answer it. Your 4.16pm suggestion that doing wrong things makes the majority of people happy is evidence of your own profound confusion.

  • I wonder…

    David

    I guess the Sluggerites have taken a leaf from whathisname again and turned the other cheek or, possibly, even forgiven those who trespassed against them. Poor gullible fools, that they are…

  • McGrath

    McGrath,

    Ask a sensible question, I’ll try and answer it. Your 4.16pm suggestion that doing wrong things makes the majority of people happy is evidence of your own profound confusion.

    Posted by David Vance on Feb 01, 2007 @ 08:05 PM

    Firstly, trying to pervert what I actually said isnt making for much of a discussion.

    I gave you the example of the prisoner release under the GF agreement as something that could be viewed as morally wrong, yet it was brought about by democratic means.

    Trying to resolve the previous atrocities you mentioned, as morally wrong as they were, does exactly what? The electorate released people who committed various atrocities in 1998, do you think the same electorate now wants to put more of the same people in jail?

  • I wonder…

    McGrath

    No, don’t you get it?

    David wants an eye for an eye…

  • Comrade Stalin

    Since I don’t hide beyond a fictional name, I guess I’m more real than you.

    David, your name is the only thing about you that isn’t transparent. You can’t answer a single question, you’re worse than a politician. There are loads of points in this thread, and in every single case you’ve used a tactic to avoid answering it.

    Hi Jo. Hope the strike went well yesterday. Alas I was not living in Northern Ireland when Ulster Resistance was formed!

    Running away from the question. This is arguably your favourite trick. It’s a bit of a silly one though. For example, you don’t live in Iraq, but it doesn’t stop you from commenting in copious volumes what you think should be done in the place.

    The gross moral bankruptcy of Slugger’s republican hordes stands exposed in your risiblec attempts to divert attention away from IRA complicity in horrendous murders.

    Avoiding the question through whataboutery. No surprise there. Demonizing those asking difficult questions by accusing those asking them of being republicans is a cheap and transparent tactic.

    Ask a sensible question, I’ll try and answer it.

    Avoiding the question by attacking the credibility of the question itself. Anything to avoid answering it!

    Of course you trolls all know that I argue for UDA, UVF, INLA, LVF etc terrorists to be locked up, just like Provos,

    Anyone who wants to exposing your true opinions on terrorism just needs to mention the King David Hotel, at which point you run off. Anyone attempting to get you to respond to more serious questions about the links between unionist politicians who associated with known terrorists is wasting their time. With a few exceptions (I don’t like your old pal Bob, but I have to concede that he is one of those) unionism is up to it’s neck in paramilitaries. They are elected by people who support paramilitaries, they judiciously keep quiet about paramilitary activity. Furthermore, they even complain in public when the police disrupt loyalist paramilitary activity, like Nigel Dodds did whenever the Alexandra Bar was raided. Still they get elected with big mandates. You have to face up to that, just as the chuckies have to face up to what they’ve done.

    The problem for peace processors is that moral compass is in pieces.

    We’ve got a bit of a problem with definitions, David. Your idea of creating peace is where you invade a country and drop bombs on it. Some of us would like to change things so that less people end up dead. It’s a real shame you’re not on board. Being peaceful and constructive is just, well, boring, isn’t it ?

  • BeardyBoy

    The sisters were used and they used in return. Why be sorry for them that the politicians used them. They knew that. They knew that their brothers murder was being used for political capital. They then should have realised that once the political chips were cashed they would be dropped. If they now become an obstacle to the advancement of the two governments plans they will be sidelined.

    Why feel sorry for them for being used? They knew the score and played big boy games.

  • Grassy Knoll

    David Vance:

    that’s too easy, your facile response asking for the UVF, Provos, UDA, UFF etc to be locked up zzzZZZ. Sure every decent thinking person wants that…I suspect you have a different agenda than that of justice and fairness

    I asked you a question specifically about Ulster Resistance, as a kind of orange litmus test, for the answer to this would more likely prise into the open any ambivalent, inconsistent or biased views you may hold about say “violence and terror as acceptable tools for political change viz-à-vis your opinions on republicans”, “gun-running”, “terrorism”, “smart-suited slick-talking law-abiding Unionist politicans who have now, like the Shinners simply adopted a new strategies for the new age”, etc….

    Your avoidance by way of your half-baked answer (see paragraph 1 above) potentially exposes you as just that, ambivalent about violence as a justifiable means to an end, possibly colour-blinded bias, possibly sectarian, etc

    In any case, you have lost any credibility you might have had, and thereby you let down your own cause…

  • Comrade Stalin,

    You make the elementary mistake of mistaking not getting the answers YOU want, with not getting answer.

    Thanks for the usual infantile leftist view of Iraq – I’m sure any Jihadists reading will be encouraged by your profound analysis.

    On Ulster Resistance – I answered Jo directly. I know IRA advocates like to fantasise about UR, but really, it’s just pathetic. isn’t it?

    Grassy Noel,

    Here’s the punchline. Every republican troll on this Slugger thread has – for some inexplicable reason – failed to agree that the terror godfathers who masterminded La Mon and Claudy should be brought to justice by all our neo-democrat Republicans providing the police with all such info they may have. Instead we read the UR drivel.

    Clowntime is over on this topic guys – you’ve failed to face up to the depravity of terrorism, and instead trot out drivel about the King David Hotel rather than address the La Mon House hotel. I think I figure why – and you all know it.

    Now back to your feverish imaginations about those bad bad UR, and those bad bad Jews, right?

  • I wonder…

    Hmmm, so the muder of British soliders by Menachem Begin is “drivel” huh? I doubt even the most die hard of SF supporters would dismiss La Mon so lightly.

  • roger

    “Now back to your feverish imaginations about those bad bad UR”

    david

    I’m sure the families of those murdered with weapons from the ulster resistance arms shipment will thank you for your kind words !!!!!

    Such a caring and decent person you are david.

  • I wonder…

    Never responded to the question about how traitorous and terroristic the import by the UVF of German guns in 1912 was either, tsk tsk…

  • La Mon House, Claudy massacre – silence, eh? Yip, says it all.

  • Comrade Stalin

    You make the elementary mistake of mistaking not getting the answers YOU want, with not getting answer.

    You’ve done it again, David – instead of addressing any of the questions, you’ve gone after my approach. You haven’t answered a single substantive point during the course of this thread. Instead, in every case you’ve cast aspersions on either the question itself, or the person who asked it. You’re just not cut out for debate, are you ?

    Thanks for the usual infantile leftist view of Iraq – I’m sure any Jihadists reading will be encouraged by your profound analysis.

    This just shows the level of debate that you’re on, David. Nobody has dismissed your perspective the bombing of the La Mon hotel as “infantile”. There are three times more people killed every day in Iraq than there were at La Mon.

    The Jihadists were encouraged by the invasion of Iraq, and pretty much everyone including the Americans are conceding this at this point. Still, you keep going with your defence of the slaughter of innocents in the name of a political project. It’s a shame you lack the courage of conviction that would be required to join the army and go out there to fight yourself. You’d much rather get other poor saps to do it for you.

    Clowntime is over on this topic guys

    More cheap tactics. This time you’ve dismissed the credibility of the entire thread, and you’re going to run off without having addressed a damn thing. I guess you would be frustrating if you weren’t so boringly predictable. Why do people like you get paid by the BBC to be political pundits ? It’s a waste of my license cash.

    you’ve failed to face up to the depravity of terrorism, and instead trot out drivel about the King David Hotel rather than address the La Mon House hotel.

    Just pointing out your own hypocrisy David, which you’ve helpfully underlined for me. I unreservedly condemn the killing of innocents in ALL circumstances. You do not – you hand wave, equivocate and stammer. I have no problem condemning the circumstances within which any of the 1500 people killed by the IRA died. You, on the other hand, pointedly refuse to condemn the slaughter of innocents depending on the religious or political background of those doing the slaughtering.

    I think I figure why – and you all know it.

    Boring, David. Boring.

    Now back to your feverish imaginations about those bad bad UR,

    An armed conspiracy, linking paramilitaries and unionist politicians, designed to kill civilians. It’s unsurprising that you are dismissive of it. Why do you think such double standards are acceptable ?

    and those bad bad Jews, right?

    Nobody has mentioned Jews except you, David.

    La Mon House, Claudy massacre – silence, eh? Yip, says it all.

    Let’s get something straight, David. I don’t think it’s OK to kill civilians, police officers, or civil servants. You do. So what business do you have condemning terrorism ?

  • Wilde Rover

    “Thanks for the usual infantile leftist view of Iraq – I’m sure any Jihadists reading will be encouraged by your profound analysis.”

    And there lies the fatal flaw in this line of reasoning.

    Iraq had no Jihadists under Saddam, just mad bad socialist Baathists.

    Yes, the regime was repressive and Saddam was a truly sadistic bastard, but that didn’t seem to bother anyone in the eighties. The same goes for any sadistic bastard the west supports when it suits us.

    When America is attacked by Jihadists based in Afghanistan, where is the logic in then attacking an enemy of bin Laden in Iraq, a country that history has shown never had the capacity to attack the US even if it wanted to?

    Of course now the cradle of civilization is full of Jihadists thanks to the state of chaos created by the US/British invasion.

    The invasion has given oxygen to the spread of fundamentalism.

    The same applies to Northern Ireland.

    Militant republicanism has always depended on injustice and atrocity on the part of Britain in order to flourish. In times of relative peace and stability, such as the fifties, militant republicanism was ticking over on life support.

    Militant republicanism only came off life support because the civil rights movement was literally shot to pieces.

    The gradual realization of the aims of the civil rights movement has resulted in militant republicanism slowly returning to life support.

    Your argument is like watering weeds while complaining the garden is overrun.

  • I Wonder

    CS:

    I suspect a threat to litigate may be on the way. 🙂

    But everything you say and claim can be evidenced on a certain blog.

    Ironic that the point about SF hypocrisy is lost, due to the evidence undermining the credibility of the claimant.

  • Grassy Knoll

    David Vance,

    as a conscientious Christian, I consider the taking of any human life to be morally wrong, indefensible, unjustifiable.

    On that basis I have no quams to say that those who posed bombs and those who took lives for whatever cause, be it at La Mon, Kingsmills, Dublin & Monaghan, Omagh or massacres like the Miami Showband, Greysteel, Loughgall and the rest too innumerable and horrible to mention, have committed crimes against God and against man, and should be punished on this earth. “Thou shalt not kill”.

    No ambivalence, no fudging, no doublespeak.

    Your position the other hand shows itself to be mired in hypocracy and deception. You, like Willie “Republican Crimes Are The ony Ones To Be Condemned” Frazer, clearly have, a surreptitious aganda, but just scratch your surface and there is revealed an Orange glow…

  • Sean

    David Vance

    You magically expect the nationalists who have suffered mightily at the hands of the police to suddenly leave it all behind and hand over people to what have never been fair or impartial courts.

    how about as a good faith gesture the police start helping the police and show the republicans how its done

  • Hi Kids,

    Catch up time!

    CS,

    Since there hasn’t been a single substantive point made in your comments during the course of this thread, how could I answer one?

    But yes, I have dismissed the waffle in this thread – for the drivel it clearly is.
    As for your pay-off line – you expect me to read that without laughing? Soory but poor old Jo is dead wrong on this – one does not sue kids.

    Grassy Noel,

    You make a much better point than the Comrade. I understand your first paragraph and respect your view. Wonder how you square my consistent calls to have the UVF, UDA, LVF et al imprisoned with the alleged duplicity you cite. Also, I am not in any way Orange – that’s a bigoted claim you make, pal.

    Sean,

    I would wish that anyone who has caused pain or loss to anyone to be behind bars. That is why I oppose the “peace process” and the lionisation of butchers.

    Now bedtime for you lot..

  • I wonder…

    “anyone who has caused pain or loss to anyone to be behind bars”

    Patently untrue. You do not believe that the British Army or RUC ever wrongfully killed anyone. Prove me wrong.

  • BeardyBoy

    I wonder how he is supposed to prove it. Can you state what you would consider proof?

  • I wonder…

    An example would be ONE post from the hundreds on ATW which shows, or even hints at a view that such a killing was wrong, or even of dubious value in the “war.”

    There’s little difficulty identifying his view on how wrong the Provos were and ndeed, still are.

  • BeardyBoy

    help me out of my ignorance – what\who is ATW?

  • I wonder…

    BB
    Click on David’s name to link to A Tangled Web, his website.

    If you enter the title of the site and the word “coon” into Google, you’ll find it easily, although that combination of search terms might make you realise what it is you’re linking to – and not bother… ;o)

  • I Wonder

    Silence, quelle surprise. 😉