What the DUP wants…

Gregory Campbell speaking at the same conference that Hain was addressing at the weekend, replies to the accusation his party is somehow running from devolution, laying out what his party still requires from Sinn Fein before going into government:

– Total decommissioning,

– a complete end to paramilitary activity,

– a complete end to criminal activity,

– and an acceptance of and support for the rule of law.

None of this is beyond the realms of possibility, though it has to be asked just how the DUP would have the IRA prove beyond it September 2005 act of decommissioning that it hasn’t retained some relatively small number of weapons for its own (unstated) ends. Otherwise, the choice is largely Sinn Fein’s, since it now appears to be senior partner in the relationship with the IRA.

Then he goes on to outline what his party wants from the government, presumeably to help it sell its deal to its own, (and the UUP’s) constituency:

– Changes to the institutions,

– delivery of equality measures for the unionist community,

– and a financial package to assist the return of devolution.

One could be forgiven for suspecting that this is as much about playing Supermarket Sweep as it is the Weakest Link.

,

  • Pete Baker

    Mick

    Gregory Campbell was speaking in the same debate that Dermot Ahern took part in.. as noted here ;o)

  • Mayoman

    “delivery of equality measures for the unionist community,”

    Please someone, give me some details about this? In what sense is the unionist community ‘unequal’? What are the exact requiests of the DUP to counteract this?

  • Mick Fealty

    Mayoman

    Now that would be telling. A common characteristic between SF and DUP approaches to negotiations, is never to give detail in advance of the deal.

    Nevertheless, it is a question worth asking.

  • spirit-level

    mayoman
    “delivery of equality measures for the unionist community”
    I think this means the right to yell
    “Its my party and I’ll cry if I want to”

    so I’d say the detail here is the unionists want to feel that they need tender loving care too, with cotton-wool bandages, cosy duvets and blankets ( not to be confused with the hunger-strikers protest blankets)thrown in to the equation and the right to sniffle and whinge, wipe a tear from the eye with a hanky ( sometimes insincerely )about how life is so unfair. And stop putting us under pressure as we don’t like it. Just like SF get all the sympathy.

    problem is its rubbish
    Campbell highlights the usual condescending “you’re not good enough for us” BS we’ve had to endure for years.

  • dub

    i have asked gregory campbell this question directly in an interview and he very clearly enunciated the following inequalities (as he saw it) between 2 communities (to the detriment of protestants):

    the 50/50 recruitment rule to psni

    the funding imbalance (as he saw it) between ulster scots and irish

    and lastly the fact that whilst catholics have the choice of going to catholic ethos schools protestants in the north do not have same choice… as the state schools are open to everyone and do not have a particular ethos…

    intriguingly he was quite willling to accept that in relation to the third issue protestants in the republic get a better deal than their northern counterparts as church of ireland schools for example are funded fully by the state…

    from a broad republican perspective it seems to me that only the first demand is problematic and for the time being non negnotiable…

    what was most interesting about campbell for me was that he seemed interested in purely sectional interests for his community and it struck me how easily these interests could be managed in a ui… the cultural identity he espoused also was ulster scots rather than british and he was also quite happy to admit that ulster scots groups were “flourishing” in donegal with no hostility towards them…

    in other words, in relation to 2 of his key demands for equality, a ui would present no problem (of course he did not say this…)

    actually there was one more issue.. this was in relation to passports… that people born in the republic of “british” outlook and/or background and who has beome resident in ni should be able to get british passports as of right.. he compared this to nationalists in north (in fact all northerners) being able to get irish passports..

    this of course would be up to british govt…

    again i think it is worth noting here the essentially defensive and cultural identity politics that are going on here…

    nationalists need to listen carefully to this..

    in a very real sense gregory is asking the 2 govts to recognise the rights of ulster protestants to be ulster protestants in ireland…

    that is a demand that can easily and should be conceded…

    this is the king of ulster volunteerism that pearse and co found attractive..

    of course i am not saying that beneath this rhetoric there are not other things lying but we must take people at their word…

    the only issue that impinges on nationalists here is the policing issue…

  • dub

    above should read “the KIND of ulster volunteerism…”

  • londonderry_loyal

    The equality issues are very clear and the party has stated these on many occasions such as:

    – the discrimination in the psni and their 50% catholic and 50% other rules

    – difference in funding between irish and ulster scots cultures

    – and the passport issue.

    All these should be addressed

  • Dec

    Right, lets see…The DUP (including Gregory Campbell) want:

    Total decommissioning,

    – a complete end to paramilitary activity,

    – a complete end to criminal activity,

    – and an acceptance of and support for the rule of law.

    But then warn that if greater cross-border cooperation is imposed if they (the DUP) don’t agree to power sharing arrangements in November, then this would be viewed in some Loyalist quarters (Surely not the ‘Good’ UDA and UVF, though?) as an excuse to return to violence.

    That’s fair enough, then.

  • Dec

    In that case maybe the DUP should be insisting on Loyalist decommissioning and an end to all Loyalist paramilitary activity before the they’ll even consider rejecting power-sharing arrangements in November.

  • Brian Boru

    The DUP are not going to go into govt with SF so roll on joint-management and North-South powersharing.

  • Brian Boru

    “- the discrimination in the psni and their 50% catholic and 50% other rules ”

    Catholics are still onyl 20% of the PSNI (too much for many Unionists of course) and therefore need to be 40% as far as I am concerned because that is their % of the population. The quotas are still needed.

  • Fergus D

    dub said:
    “and lastly the fact that whilst catholics have the choice of going to catholic ethos schools protestants in the north do not have same choice… as the state schools are open to everyone and do not have a particular ethos… ”

    I don’t understand that. Surely NI is like the rest of the UK? Churches can set up their schools, they have to put some funding in but they receive very substantial state funding (the mojority of their expenses I think, something I don’t agree with, but still) and indeed there are many CofE and RC schools in Britain of that type. If the CoI and Presbyterian churches want schools in NI, like the RC church does, what’s to stop them? If they did set up such schools then could the “regular” state schools then be seen as strictly non-denominational and integrated?

  • Dualta

    This issue of discrimination against Protestants and unequal treatment has been around for a bit, and Gregory has been one of its main proponents.

    However, in his own town of Londonderry, an SDLP mayor, Martin Bradley once convened a forum designed to deal with the sectarian divide in the city. The DUP representatives there were asked to compile a list of reasons why the Protestants in Derry felt alientated in the city. When they failed to produce the document at a later meeting their excuse was that they did not have anyone with the skills to produce it.

    Now I reckoned that this was a pretty lame excuse to be honest, because it struck me that the first and main reason for Protestant alienation in Londonderry was that it was self-imposed, i.e. many Protestants didn’t want to hang out around Catholics. Many didn’t really want to socialise or work on the Derryside.

    However, if you were to listen to Gregory you’d think that there was wholesale discrimination in jobs, housing and voting in Derry. He went on about is so much I half expected to close my eyes and see a picture of him, drenched and spread-eagle against a wall being searched by a British soldier.

    Listening to Gregory banging on about discrimination against Protestants brings back the memory of Jonathan Bell on the Long March, staring bleary eyed into the ether, quoting Martin Luther King.

    They’re having a laugh. It’s propaganda and mopery at its most blatant and should be ignored.

  • fair_deal

    Dualta

    http://www.research.ofmdfmni.gov.uk/derryreport.pdf

    FYI an academic study of Unionist alienation in Londonderry.

    On your claim that “i.e. many Protestants didn’t want to hang out around Catholics”

    The report found that:
    “The reduction in violence has also led to a re-engagement with the shopping areas located within Derry/Londonderry’s Cityside. The majority of Protestants surveyed also work, and are content to do so, in predominantly Catholic
    workplaces. Many Protestants, around half, also socialise with non-Protestants on a regular basis.”

  • Dualta

    FD,

    I’ve no problem with that report. It doesn’t impinge on anything I said eariier. I’m referring to a period around 10 years ago, whilst this report was produced last year.

    Also, I did not state that they did not want to hang out around Catholics for any particular reason. I just made a statement of fact.

    If anything, this report’s findings back up what I’ve said, insofaras Gregory’s talk in Derry is as if there was widespread anti-Protestant discrimination. There is bad feeling, of course, it’s NI after all, but he’s whipping it up for electoral gain.

  • dub

    fergus,

    i was only reporting what gregory said..

    your point is well made…

    my point is that if this is a genuine problem then all that needs to be done is to set up criteria as in the republic that once there is a certain demand etc…

    passports issue and ulster scots issue likewise can easily be dealt with…

    dualta,

    i would agree with much of what you say..

    the point is that we should be looking to cede on legitimate points to dup and indeed to anyone..

    these are not outrageous demands.. as i said they are essentially defensive cultural indentity type issues and can be accomodated in an agreed ni, a federal ireland or a united ireland…

    there is only one point to iriah nationalism… irish people have the right to rule themselves and all cultures on island have right to express themselves in a manner consistent with public order etc…

    this is the ethos that governs the republic.. go to raphoe in donegal for example and see how the protestant identity is catered for… in a way that it is nowhere in 6 co.’s..

    we never went down the french road and imposed republican secularism…

    the republic provides for education for example does not provide it..

    schools are independent of direct govt control and have their own ethos…

    sometimes i wonder in the north that “nationalists” seem more content to deprive unionists of what they want than getting a ui..

    it does not seem to occur to some of them that we could actually agree to a situation where they DO get almost 100 percent of what they want AND get a ui or federal ireland…

  • baldrick45

    Pet hate of mine but I can’t help myself….

    My understanding is that the Ulster Scots Agency have stated that they are not yet at a stage in their development as an organisation, nor do they yet have sufficient U-S speakers, to make any sensible use of parity of funding with the Irish language community. They have certainly, to the best of my knowledge, never sought budgets comparable to that spent across the island on the promotion of Gaelic.

    As such It makes me mad that, as erstwhile “champions” of efficiency and value for money in public expenditure that, the DUPs are happy to demand that we piss away umpteen millions of our money in the advancement of what remains essentially a dialect, currently only of interest to a tiny minority of people even within the “Protestant/Unionist” community.

    I’m happy that it receives some money and goes away and grows as much as it can. If on that basis it ever needs the same expenditure as Irish then I’d have to swallow hard and say “fine” too.

    But to demand that we piss away public resource; cuz this is “our thing” and it deserves as much as “their thing” is f*ckin’ ludicrous. At the moment the two communities of Irish and Ulster Scots cannot be compared, its an “apples” versus “oranges” situation.

    And to paraphrase an old BBC drama series, For most of us, “Oranges are not the only fruit”!

    .

  • IJP

    This is very unimpressive (we should be particularly wary of any “financial package”, for which the NI ratepayer, not the UK taxpayer, will end up paying), but particularly:

    equality measures for the unionist community

    What does this mean?

    Unionists have traditionally scoffed at the idea of equality of outcome (quotas and all) as opposed to equality of opportunity, and rightly so.

    Now they seem committed to a U-turn – demanding quotas for cross-border bodies, quotas for the Equality Commission, and so on.

    Those who believe in equality of opportunity and appointment/treatment on merit will have to look outside political Unionism in future…

  • Mick Fealty

    Dualta,

    Not quite sure how you would go about standing up the claim that “many Protestants didn’t want to hang out around Catholics”. It’s fairly loose as an explanation.

    I remember working with a group of 14/5 year old students from Clondermott High around 1988/9, and it seemed to me then that one of the top anxieties was physical attack because of the religion/political identity.

    I can’t throw in figures or any material evidence to say whether that fear arose from generalised experience of being part of a minority in a troubled city, or based on specific experience, but it was a genuine concern.

  • JR

    “Loyalist areas getting £33m boost. The money is for health, living conditions and education in inner city areas.
    An “areas of risk” programme, initially focusing on 10 pilot areas throughout NI, was also launched. These include Dunclug in Craigavon, West Portadown, the Rathenraw estate in Antrim, Dhu Varren/Glenmanus in Portrush, Seacourt in Larne and a number of areas of Londonderry.
    There is also a new fast track initiative to encourage young people to stay on in education and training after the age of 16.

    In Belfast, the lower Newtownards Road, Shankill, Crumlin Road and Oldpark areas will receive a share of the money.

    Separately from the schemes, Mr Hanson announced that the Department of Employment and Learning would build a new £13.5m Workforce and Economic Development Centre in the Springvale area of west Belfast.”

    The poor Protestant communities!! My arse!!

  • Harry

    Gregory Campbell objects to the 50/50 police recruitment numbers in a situation where the proportions of the population are 45%/46% Catholic and 51%/52% Protestant. Jaysus he’s picky, eh? Hardly anything to choose between the 50/50 rule and the population at large. Throw in an understanding that the police force as currently constituted is 80% Protestant and 20% Catholic and you have nothing but rank bigotry. Beyond irrational – rabid might be a better description.

    Obviously when all these demands for ‘equality’ are given in the reasonable manner that dub outlined what will happen is that the DUP will pick up the guns (along with the new Rambo Reg & Friends) and threaten civil war to prevent a united ireland. That’s what this is all about anyway, as we all know.

  • jim

    Northern Ireland was created by Terrorists for Terrorists. The Unionists threats of post 24th are deplorable and very Carsonist in nature.

    The Irish people should not be held to ransom again. The DUP sound bites amount to nothing more than an axis of evil.

  • “Northern Ireland was created by Terrorists for Terrorists”

    whilst the Irish state was born on a wave of pacific harmony and non-violence…

    LOL

  • Reader

    Harry: Hardly anything to choose between the 50/50 rule and the population at large.
    So when is Antrim GAA going to be 50% Prod? How about a 50/50 rule for recruitment to membership? That would be fair, wouldn’t it?

  • james orr

    Baldrick45

    This is ooooold ground. Remember that the Ulster-Scots Agency’s job is not solely language. Its job includes the promotion and awareness of culture and history too. On language alone (ie USAgency compared to its sister agency Foras na Gaeilge, whose remit is language alone) the funding differential is 8:1.

    To compare apples with apples (to use your analogy) the overall cultural funding differential between Ulster-Scots and Irish is closer to 20:1, if not greater.

    Ulster-British identity, expressed via the Orange Order and the Ulster Society, in terms of public sector funding is even worse off. If their funding (via DCAL, DSD and CRC?) even gets close to that of Ulster-Scots I would be amazed.

    (Cue the usual jokes about the cost of taxis to Dublin)

  • IJP

    Reader

    An essential point. 50/50 is a discriminatory outrage and should be ended. Parties should be consistent in their opposition to discrimination on the grounds of religion.

    The point is that Unionists are now advocating such discrimination (in the Equality Commission, for example). So you can discriminate against any religion, until it’s the Prods who lose out…

    Either you’re against religious discrimination universally, or you’re not. And Unionists aren’t. Simple as that.

    Appointment and funding should be awarded on the basis of merit – that’s equality of opportunity. Neither Nationalists nor Unionists advocate that, though.

    James

    In an attempt to leave aside the jokes about taxis to Dublin: the “British” identity of NI is represented in all kinds of ways – not least its constitutional position, the symbols on/in its public buildings, road names, and so on.

    Either comparing Irish with Ulster Scots is comparing like-with-like, or it isn’t. It’s the latter.

    If Unionists want more public funding for Ulster Scots (as opposed to for hospitals, schools, roads etc – for it has to come from somewhere, unless they’re advocating another rates hike), then they’d better make a coherent case for it.

    So far we’ve seen no such case… and nearly £1 million was thrown away on a website – http://www.ulster-scots-learning.org.uk/ – which has been “undergoing routine maintenance” for several months now, since the first week it went ‘live’!

    If public funding isn’t working, of course, they could always play to the “work ethic” and “entrepreneur” stereotype and come up with the funding themselves – if it’s that popular, it’ll be no problem recouping it eventually. That’s how the modern revival of Irish in the North started, after all.

  • David

    It should be noted that it is the DUP man who raises the prospect of Loyalist violence. The PUP guy (who is vilified in the media) is the one who wishes to move away from those days. Of course if the tensions are raised as a result of the DUP’s refusal to deal in November the media will blame………David Ervine.

  • kensei

    “So when is Antrim GAA going to be 50% Prod? How about a 50/50 rule for recruitment to membership? That would be fair, wouldn’t it?”

    Yes, assuming that the GAA suddenly became the police force of the state. I am sorry that this is necessary and some otherwise desrving people will miss out on a job. But for policing to be accepted and effective, everyone needs to take part. Exrraordinary circumstances require extraordinary measures, and we are still talking about a 80% Unionist force. Once the tipping point is reached we can switch back to normal recruiting. Until then, tough. You got an easier ride becauise of a lack of Catholic applicants for 80 years.

    Btw, you really need a new loine.

  • Billy

    As a nationalist, I think that there should be a cap put on the amount of money given to either the Irish language or Ulster Scots.

    Although, it’s only fair to say that Ulster Scots seems to have only “existed” for < 10 years and (to quote a leading unionist) is "gibberish" i.e. Gae Laern for Go Learn. I have no problem with the passport issue raised by Gregory Campbell - seems only fair. However, 50/50 in the PSNI is non negotiable. What the DUP and Unionists don't want to recognise is that the RUC was a (94%) Protestant Force that represented the Protestant people. I am a very moderate Catholic and grew up in a reasonably affluent area. While I oppose all violence, neither I nor any of my friends at school or University would have dreamt of joining the RUC. This was not down to IRA intimidation as the Unionists like to say - I never saw anything like that ever. Catholics (of any background) are not stupid - we could see the RUC for what it was and saw their blatent discrimination either at first hand or on TV on many occasions. I'm afraid that NI is not normal in any sense - if it wants a police force respected by all - the 50/50 recruitment must stay until the PSNI represents the population from whence it is drawn. Mr Campbell can be very persuasive and makes some good points. However, he then effectively says that, if the North/South arrangements are not to the liking of Unionists - there will likely be a reaction from "loyalist" paramilitaries - funny that - you would almost think that the DUP are threatening the UK govt.

  • exuup

    hat the DUP and Unionists don’t want to recognise is that the RUC was a (94%) Protestant Force that represented the Protestant people. –

    The fact that catholcis set about murderign other catholics and their families, who joined the RUC had nothign to do with that i suppose. Amazing how catholics ignore the violence they carried out on their own people to STOP them joining the forces of law and order.

  • Billy

    Ex UUP

    At no point did I say that there was no violence by Republican terrorists against RUC members in the Catholic community.

    However, Unionists such as yourself like to propogate the myth that lots of Catholics would have joined the RUC if it wasn’t for this violence.

    I don’t claim to have a great insight into the minds of the Unionist community. However, as I grew up in the Catholic community throughout the troubles, I do know about the thoughts/opinions that were prevalent there.

    Like I said, myself and my friends/colleagues disapprove of all violence. However, the IRA campaign was not a major factor in the reluctance of Catholics to join the RUC. The simple fact was that the RUC was set up to represent one side of the community and the vey few Catholics in it were tokens and had to keep their mouths shut.

    Why don’t you read the memoirs of the excellent Jonty Brown who openly talks about SENIOR RUC personnel who were known to be very sympathetic to “loyalist” terrorists i.e. aided them to murder innocent Catholics with impunity.

    John Weir – ex RUC man convicted of the murder of a Catholic man. His confessions lifted the lid on large scale RUC/UDR collusion with “loyalist” terrorists.

    Norah McCabe – killed by an RUC plastic bullet – the RUC assistant CC who was in the landrover at the time claimed that “the petrol bombs rained down on us”. Unfotunately for him a canadian film crew were in the street and showed that there wasn’t a petrol bomb in sight and Mrs McCabe was just walking down the street. Odd that no disciplionary action was taken against any of the RUC personnel involved.

    Michael Stone talks about being congratulated by the RUC men who arrested him after killing 3 Catholics.

    Billy Wright talked of aborting a number of murder attempts on Catholics because he’d be warned by “friends” in the RUC that it wouldn’t be safe for him.

    Don’t lecture me about the reasons for Catholics not joining the RUC – you haven’t a clue about thinking in the Catholic community and I do.

    The bottom line is that any UK govt knows that, if they back out of 50/50, all the support for the PSNI in the nationalist community (even the SDLP) will disappear.

    If Unionists such as yourself are truly interested in “the forces of law and order” – why are you worried about a police force that has a proportional representation of Catholics? Surely you don’t want a police force with differing standards for each side of the community – or perhaps that’s what you do want.

  • IJP

    and (to quote a leading unionist) is “gibberish”

    I believe that was me in 2000 – you’re most kind, but I am neither leading nor a unionist…!

    I.

  • kensei

    “The fact that catholcis set about murderign other catholics and their families, who joined the RUC had nothign to do with that i suppose. Amazing how catholics ignore the violence they carried out on their own people to STOP them joining the forces of law and order.”

    The reason behind why the force is so constituent is utrterly irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that it is so, that is bad, and it needs corrected.

    Live with it.

  • dub

    Billy,

    Agreed 100 percent with what you have said. we give on the reasonable points and object to what is objectionable.

    It should be the same with orange marches.. what amazes me is how little what is actually offensive about these marches is discussed.. e.g. paramilitary flags, bellicose playing of party tunes near particular locations, foul language, behaviour and alchohol etc…

    Generalised oppposition to whatever people say just because of who is saying it is utterly fruitless and unproductive and will get nationalists nowhere near their goal (i’m assuming nationalist goal is a united ireland)…

    BTW IJP in what way exactly are u not a unionist?? u certainly sound like one and as i understand it u belong to the alliance party which in my view, apart from the UKUP, is the only genuine unionist party (i.e. believes in the union and not as an axcuse to cover a communal ethnic motivation which is the case for the other “unionist” parties)… and no harm in that, genuine unionism being at least rational is a lot easier to argue with…

  • Reader

    IJP: The point is that Unionists are now advocating such discrimination (in the Equality Commission, for example). So you can discriminate against any religion, until it’s the Prods who lose out…
    Far too cynical, really it’s just whataboutery. I think many unionists think that nationalists view anti-discrimination legislation as only applying one way. Alliance should be perfectly willing to point out the problem with that viewpoint. So why the silence?
    Meanwhile, the 50/50 rule is *not* anti-discrimination legislation. Where does it fit so far as Alliance is concerned?

  • Reader

    kensei: Yes, assuming that the GAA suddenly became the police force of the state.
    I wasn’t suggesting my wee proposal was put into law. Mind you – the GAA does get substantial funding of various kinds from the taxpayer…
    It’s really a case of how the northern GAA wants to be seen by the community as a whole.

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    Until the make-up of the police force is a fair representation of the whole community then the inequality is not in the recruitment but will remain in the police force itself.

    The success of PSNI in the future depends on it having the confidence and support of both sides of the community.

    50/50 must remain.

  • kensei

    “I wasn’t suggesting my wee proposal was put into law. Mind you – the GAA does get substantial funding of various kinds from the taxpayer…”

    As does, say, the Orange Order. We can play this game all day.

    “It’s really a case of how the northern GAA wants to be seen by the community as a whole.”

    Probably as some kind of ‘Gaelic’ Association that stays true to the ethos it was founded with, but at the same time welcomes everyone to involve themselves to whatever level they are comfortable with. Probably not what you envisage.

    What has this to do with the police?

  • IJP

    Dub

    Unionism is a political identity whose prime objective is maintenance of the union with Great Britain.

    Nationalism is a political identity whose prime objective is establishment of an all-island republic outside the UK.

    Liberalism is a political identity whose prime objective is establishment of a stable, prosperous and fair society for every individual. It does not put constitutional preconditions in the way of achieving it, and indeed advocates that no one has the right so to do.

    Alliance is a Liberal party.

    In short, offer me the status quo or a stable, prosperous and fair six counties within an all-island Republic, and I’ll take the latter. Pity no one offers it!

    Reader

    I’m genuinely not sure where you’re coming from here.

    Either you’re in favour of religious discrimination (the like of 50/50), or you’re not. Unionists rightly opposed 50/50 on the basis it was discriminatory. However, now they support a similar method of “evening up” selection to the Equality Commission. So they favour religious discrimination – provided it helps the “Unionist Community”. And that is unprincipled, inconsistent, sectarian claptrap.

    Alliance’s position is the only clear one here – discrimination in selection/recruitment on the basis of religion is wrong. Full stop.

  • Mayoman

    IJP’s stance reminds me a lot of other liberal party’s ethos. That is, deal with utopianism, and look principled, becuase you know you will never have power and have to deal with the facts as they stand. The greatest principle is to want to consign the sectarian RUC to the dustbin in any way possible. It was a British ex-Conservative MP (and his merry band of men) who came up with the solution I think? I’m sure this usual bedfellow of unionism would balk at the suggestion that turhing an evident wrong into a right amounted to discrimination.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “Catholics are still onyl 20% of the PSNI (too much for many Unionists of course) and therefore need to be 40% as far as I am concerned because that is their % of the population. The quotas are still needed.”

    Don’t know of any Unionist who wouldn’t want a RC peeler about the place, so that’s a foolish comment. But since you’re so keen on quotas that reflect the community you’ll be arguing for positive discrimination for Prods in the NIHE, and other government bodies- like…er, the Equality Commission- not to mention the private sector- particularly the licenced sector, the building trade and of course the law. Oh sorry, would that spoil your pet theory of evil prods versus downtrodden taigs?

  • IJP

    mayoman

    Congratulations on perhaps the most inaccurate post in the history of Slugger!

    It is the four tribal parties who seem to think you can govern a country by finding “more money” and “more resources” for schools, hospitals and transport alongside “lower rates”, “no water tax” and “fewer industrial taxes”.

    The sums don’t add up, but hey, there’s always “the other side” to blame for that.

    Take a closer look at NI politics and you’ll find Alliance is the only party that does (at least occasionally) deal with the real world.

  • kensei

    “Don’t know of any Unionist who wouldn’t want a RC peeler about the place, so that’s a foolish comment. But since you’re so keen on quotas that reflect the community you’ll be arguing for positive discrimination for Prods in the NIHE, and other government bodies- like…er, the Equality Commission- not to mention the private sector- particularly the licenced sector, the building trade and of course the law. Oh sorry, would that spoil your pet theory of evil prods versus downtrodden taigs?”

    It depends on the extent of the imbalance. Once you reach a certain Tipping Point other measures (off the top of my head such as looking at the ratio of applicants and working to improve that) should be sufficient to ensure that there is the desired increase. But if the problem was extreme enough then yes, extreme measures should be taken.

    I do not know enough about the examples you cite to comment, but the RUC was clearly spectacularly imbalanced being as it was 97% Prod.

    Whataboutery is irrelevant to the discussion, and the composition of the police is more fundamental than the composition of random government bodies.

    Som once again, quit whining and deal with it.

  • dub

    ijp,

    given the current stability prosperity and fairness of the 26 county state I see no reason why 6 counties should not sign up right away…

    alliance are not as agnostic about the union as you make out.. the utterly disgraceful voting record of one seamus close would bear that one out alone…

    surely a liberal party believes in democracy.. something that has NEVER existed in NI in the sense of being able to elect representatives belonging to parties who have a realistic chance of governing the state (i am referring to uk state)… ni has always been cut off from the british electoral 2 party political system.. it is a communally based bantustan statelet administered by the executive of the uk state with no reference to views of its electors..

    and under british rule that is never going to change (they have NO intention of ever integrating ni into uk proper). so surely as a liberal you should be campaigning for the only 2 avail alternatives.. full independence for ni.. or integration into 26 county state (something whch the irisg govt have NOT ruled out for eterntiy unlike the british).

    until you campaign actively for one of these 2 scenarios then i and many others will justifiably see the alliance (apart) from the ukup as the one genuine unionist party..