Orange Carnival? You bet!

Visiting US Lodge including the Rev Paul Zahl an Episcopal Bishop who were being filmed for a documentary by a US TV Crew.

Quite alot of negative posts regarding the Twelfth celebrations – some rightly so. The flag with “Micky Bo” springs to mind. However to most folks in the Protestant community The Twelfth is the highlight of the year and in the majority of locations is a peaceful family day out. I have been out and about with my video camera and managed to capture events in Rossnowlagh on the 8th and Magherafelt on the 12th including a visiting US Orange Lodge from Birmingham, Alabama. It can be and should be a family day and a tourist attraction.

Pipe Band

USA Lodge

The Ulster-Scots Experience at the July Festival in Magherafelt on the 11th evening.

Rossnowlagh

The Twelfth in Tobermore 2005 (2 hours long)

  • To get the full 12th sound experience.
    Play all the video clips Simultaneously.

    thanks Aughavey

  • Pass the sick-bag

    I’m led to believe the Nuremberg Rallies were the highlight of the year for many Germans as well. That doesn’t make them any less odious…

  • slug

    Thanks Aughavy! Looks good, though I am not sure I will watch all of the last one!

  • frank

    Any vids or pics of the new bannerette commemorating Joe Bratty, which was carried for the first time during the Belfast 12th parade.

    Bratty was commander of the uff in South Belfast until his death in 94, he was beleived to be responsible for the slaughter of 5 catholics in a bookmaker shop on the ormeau road as well as numerous other sectarian murders in belfast.

    Strange that orange order grand master, Robert Saulters accused the government of ‘pandering to terrorists’ during his July 12th speech when the order are introducing banners commemorating mass murderers.

  • Alan2

    You would have to take that issue up with the private Lodge that bought it. Thats Belfast for ya! I don`t particularly like the Belfast parade as it is almost 100% Flute Bands. The Belfast Parade is in much need of “Carnivalisation” IMHO The country parade have a much different tone.

  • frank

    I wonder which ‘private’ lodge payed the Shankill Star fb to lead them during this years 12th parade.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/hwr21/188440184/in/pool-northernireland/

    Brian Robinson was a senior member of the uvf (and the orange order), he was shot by udercover soldiers on his way back from murdering a catholic man at Ardoyne shops.

    The band has been taking part in orange order parades for many years, funny that the order have no problems with the commemoration of loyalist terrorists.

    ‘pandering to terrorists’ Mr Saulters ????

  • Rory

    It seems more than unfair to take out whatever criticisms of the Orange Order’s tolerance or approval of sectarian killers one might have on Aughavey for sharing with us his videos which are a social documentary of our times taken from within the community whose celebration it is.

    Someone mentioned Nuremberg, a bit of a grandiose comparison surely, but anyway we would know less of that were it not for the Reich’s cinema propagandist Leni Reifenstahl and Aughavey is not a propagandist. He is a member of his community who records their events with some sympathy surely – but that is precisely the value of his work. We would all do well to accord him that respect. I certainly do and thank him for sharing it with me.

  • Robert Burns

    Thanks for the clips, as someone who used to attend the Twelfth celebrations in rural Co Antrim; they struck a chord 🙂 with me. It was a very enjoyable social gathering that had as much to do with catching up with friends and acquaintance’s, as it had with watching the bands and listening to the music.

    It’s a shame that the media in general and a few sluggerite’s as well, prefer to avert their eyes from that reality, which I believe is much more representative of the overall body of the Twelfth celebrations and prefer instead to focus on negative aspects

    Any organisation that allows democratic power to be exercised at a local level, will very likely experience localised views being expressed, which are at variance with those of the vast majority of its members.

    Such anomalies would not be tolerated by many organisations; some, as inferred to by ‘pass the sick bag’, would have acted quickly and violently to ensure social adherence to the party line. Can’t for the life of me think of any such parties in Northern Ireland …..!

  • Prince Eoghan

    “It’s a shame that the media in general and a few sluggerite’s as well, prefer to avert their eyes from that reality, which I believe is much more representative of the overall body of the Twelfth celebrations and prefer instead to focus on negative aspects”

    Rabbie.

    Those negative aspects are what makes the present OO odious in the extreme. Take them away and you can hold traffic up in country villages to your hearts content. No-one could object to showing the colours then, if that’s what does it for you.

  • slug

    Another OO hall has been burned down today – in a sectarian attack by nationalists.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Slug.

    Why is it sectarian to burn down an organisations hall? are the OO a religion?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/5182758.stm

    Surely schools are far higher in the list of importance, no matter which religion they cater for.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/5180394.stm

  • slug

    Are you arguing that an arson attack on an Orange Hall is not sectarian?

  • Fanny

    “Another OO hall has been burned down today – in a sectarian attack by nationalists.”

    And they will continue to be burned until the OO see sense. You can’t celebrate battles your ancestors won against the ancestors of of your neighbours and hope that said neighbours will appreciate it.

    Lose the military regalia, boys. Get rid of the provocative banners. Become the Christian organization you claim to be and we can all have a bit of peace in the summer.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Not arguing anything, it may be, it may not be. Simply asking if the OO are a religion or an organisation?

  • slug

    Interesting to see the reaction of fanny and prince eoghan. (“They will continue to be burned until the OO see sense”). Interesting.

    Prince Eoghan, so you are not disputing this was a sectarian attack?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Prince Eoghan, so you are not disputing this was a sectarian attack?

    So far as the OO are a wierd sect, then if those who were so driven, or motivated against that sect then it may be ascertained to be a sectarian attack. The story does not say it was such an attack, they blame it on arsonists, so it is to early to say if I am disputing it or not. Incidently the only people who mention sectarianism are the SF and SDLP reps, who begin to make power grabbing look respectable.

    Do you class this as some kind of religious attack or political?

  • Fanny

    Slug, I’m simply stating the obvious. Why should a section of the population put up with another section provoking them every bloody summer and warming up old animosities.

    It’s like your next door neighbour reminding you every day that your granny was a lunatic. You wouldn’t just nod in agreement and carry on, would you?

  • memorystick

    Pity there is no footage from Scarva, it was a great day out this year.

    I generally prefer country parades to Belfast parades, for a variety of reasons and not least because of all the venom directed against them by “community reps” the Belfast lodges tend to be a bit more aggressive.

  • slug

    Fanny – are you saying that arson-attacking those you deem as not “seeing sense” is acceptable?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Slug.

    I kindly responded to you, what is wrong with you responding to me?

  • slug

    Prince, like you I see it as sectarian.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Slug.

    I am yet to be convinced.

    Do you class this as some kind of religious attack or political?

  • Fanny

    Slug, I’m not finding any of this acceptable. Arson is wrong, so is provoking your neighboures. The one leads to the other. Just as Hezbollah knows that firing rockets into Israel will lead to Israeli air assaults. You’d think boys would learn after all these millennia, but no. Fucking tragic.

  • slug

    Prince – I would suspect it is not strictly political or religious, but driven by tribal hatred, or the sectarian type.

    Would you agree it is a hatred-driven attack?

  • slug

    That should be “of the sectarian type” not “or the sectarian type”

  • Prince Eoghan

    “Would you agree it is a hatred-driven attack?”

    Certainly Slug.

    Now we begin to get to the heart of the matter. What peace loving organisation would have so many of it’s gang-huts attacked if it wasn’t projecting some of that self same hatred?

    I do not advocate this approach, I won’t cry crocodile tears over it either though. I do not rank this attack any where near in importance to an attack on a place of learning or a church. Before we get the hard of thinking rabble-rousers on trying to compare it to attacks on GAA halls. Think dis-association, and speculative leaps.

  • Donegal-John

    Some 60% of Irish Americans are descended from irish protestants and it is about time that this fact was driven home.

    http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005798

  • Fanny

    I can see that D-J is bored by this discussion. Me too. Same shit year after year. And if my earlier point wasn’t clear, it’s orangeMEN who are marching their silly marches year after year, knowing full well they’re annoying their neighbours.

    Maybe they should be herded into cinemas and made to watch March of the Penguins a couple of times. It might give them more sense of community. Or not.

  • John East Belfast

    The Orange Order tolerating a flute band or one lodge paying hommage to a loyalist terrorist is outrageous and unacceptable.
    It is a minority but it will destroy everything they are trying to do and shows the leadership to be either hypocrites or cowards.

    My unionism is moderate but I was brought up on the 12th and surrounded by Orangeism – however this sort of thing turns me off – it needs to stop if they are going to realise their goal of turning it into a harmless carnival among moderate unionists let alone allowing it to be tolerated by nationalists.

    The matter is a mirror image of the hand washing by the GAA over O’Neills equally disgraceful act to produce shirts paying tribute to IRA Hunger strikers.

    These kind of things need to be highlighted among moderates in our community.

  • loyalulster

    Every time you hear the words “orange culture” you reach for your petrol bomb eh Fanny? We know a thing or two about defeating fascism, funnily enough.

  • Prince Eoghan

    loyal.

    Just what is “orange culture”?

  • Fanny

    No, loyalulster, every time I hear “discussions” after Christmas every year about the forthcoming marching season involving silly boys, I shake my head and think: “Fuck, will they ever grow up?”

    Next year I’ll be thinking the same, and probably when I’m old and grey (but living in California for several decades).

  • Alan2

    “The Orange Order tolerating a flute band or one lodge paying hommage to a loyalist terrorist is outrageous and unacceptable. ”

    I agree and there is work to be done. However as pointed out Grand Lodge cannot dictate to local Lodges. Whoever has these banners have put it to a motion within their lodge and it has been voted on in the local lodge and the local lodge has spent its money. Now Grand Lodge MAY (I am not up on the technicalities) have the power to revoke a lodges warrant if it has broken the rules of the Institution. Were the folks mentioned convicted of any crimes?

  • Fanny

    “Were the folks mentioned convicted of any crimes?”

    And that, Alan, is the sort of wishy-washy talk that we hear every year. It won’t wash (pardon the pun). The OO can’t eat its cake and have it too. Either it wants a family day out (I wonder) or it loses the stink of terrorism that clings to some of its lodges.

  • Alan2

    Well I agree but I am asking a question. You cant throw people out of a Lodge for nothing and Grand Lodge cant take action against a Lodge unless there is a reason. I know there are Loyalist songs about Joe Bratty but I know very little about him and less so about the Robinson guy. What did they do, when did they do it and when were they convicted? I think it is rather silly to put such things on a banner but that is up to the Lodge. I think it is entirely counter productive.

  • lib2016

    Donegal-John,

    Good for you for giving a reference as I’m far too lazy to do so myself. My argument would be that Lyndon Johnson based his whole ‘Fair Society’ strategy around the poor whites of the Appalacian Mountains and Clinton was the Protestant descendant of Scots-Irish emigrants.

    The world has moved on and the melting-pot has worked it’s magic. Ethnic politics are important but they are not the only game in town.

  • Alan2

    ToFanny – be fair the Grand Lodge has been saying as much but some Lodges and Bands are a law unto themselves having little or no regard for the Christian nature of the Institution and are instead a Loyalist drinking club.

    12th July 2006 Resolutions

    THE FAITH: The basis of our Orange Institution is the Christian Faith with its emphasis on the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ and his word and the beliefs and practices of Christ and the Protestant Reformers.

    Everything we think and do should be governed by our faith in Jesus Christ with character and conduct evidence of that faith. Nothing matters as much as a man’s relationship with God, and nothing affects his life more than that faith in Jesus whose love of God and of His fellowmen set the example in how we should live to be worthy of His name.

    To be a true Orangeman is to be a committed Christian. Anything we say or do that contradicts this commitment to Christ our Lord and Saviour, brings discredit on ourselves; has a bad effect on our brotherhood and lessens its value in the community of which we are a part.

    In these days when the Christian Faith is devalued, ignored and attacked we have to recognise that it is absolutely necessary that we as Orangemen set such an example in Christian living that people see in us the strength and benefit of faith, and the weaknesses and inadequacies of selfish secularism.

    Too often the charge is made that we fall far short of those attributes which were those of Jesus, among them a tolerance of attitudes and actions condemned by Him and by the aims and aspirations of Orangeism from its beginnings.

    We are required by who we are to be a credit to Christ and the Christianity which shows in that exemplary behaviour which makes us recognisable as His men.

    Our resolution then is to be Orangemen true to our faith and determined to keep the vows and promises made at our initiation to the brotherhood.

    14/7/06
    Focusing on Christian faith

    WILLIAM Logan, the Sovereign Grand Master of the Royal Black Institution, said there was a tendency to promote the culture element within the Loyal Orders to the detriment, if not the exclusion, of the true reason of then-existence. Mr Logan said the basic principle of the Royal Black Institution is in the promotion and extension of the Christian faith in the reformed Protestant tradition.

    “Less that what I have just said is misunderstood or misinterpreted, it is important for me to state that I personally welcome the public expression and manifestation of those things that present the cultural aspect and traditions of our people. “But this must be done in a responsible and balanced way that does not antagonise or intimidate anyone. In doing this we must always remember the priority in all that we do, because, in an increasingly secular world it would be so easy to be distracted from and thus lose our focus on the Christian faith.

    “That is something the Royal Black Institution cannot do and dare not allow to happen.” Mr Logan said there are many people today who scorn those who have a loyalty to Christian belief and moral standards of behaviour. It has been said that those who believe in nothing can easily be influenced to believe in anything. Any new fad or outlandish idea, no matter how insubstantial or transitory, will do.

    “Of course, there is no suggestion that such foolish and shortsighted behaviour could be attributed to the Royal Black Institution. “Because as the inheritors of the Protestant Reformation you have a firm grip on the immovable Rock and you have a clear view of the Cross of Salvation,” said Mr Logan.

  • Fanny

    Yes, Alan, and this is the same old yadda-yadda we’re fed every year.

    Hint to the brethren: carrying banners with the names of battles will probably not endear you to the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor will carrying swords (and don’t say they’re only ceremonial because I seem to recall them being used in anger).

    In other words: if you wish to appear carnavalesque, do the walk not the march, bring on the dancing girls – and for fuck’s sake learn a couple of better tunes and incorporate the more “difficult” instruments.

    Sorry, did I offend anybody?

  • Resolve

    In Northern Ireland, no issue is more emotive than the ‘Orange’ debate. This inevitably leads to even more (if that is possible) fuzzy logic than is typical of Northern Irish political discourse.

    I have neither the time (too busy) nor the inclination (too fed-up) to comment on all of these, but i do want to make one little point. Hopefully this will enable us to focus the debate and prevent us from talking past eachother.

    Many 11th Night bonfires burn the sacred symbols of their neighbours, e.g. effigies of the Pope (religious); e.g.2. tricolour flag of the Rep. of Ireland (political); indeed, i have even heard of Tin Whistles etc. being thrown on triumphantly (cultural)… now, when a community is attacked on all these levels, it is quite inevitable that they will react. Hence, the regrettable and counter-productive burning of L.O.Ls. But we must be careful to avoid the numerous non-sequiturs i have witnessed on this, and other, slugger threads concerning the Order and the fall-out from the Order’s celebrations.

    To Orangemen: Surely isn’t a Protestant Christianity a pre-requisite to membership of your Order? Why then, do you not take the log out of your own eye before criticising attacks and hostility directed against you? Treat the cause, not the symptom, my friend. But be careful in drawing too many connections from this hostility. Nationalists are not offended by Orangism per-se, although it seems like many of them are. They are offended by the perceived intention to provoke, and this logically follows from the political, religious and cultural attacks on their community that i outlined at the start of this thread. Take those elements out, and you are left with a much less controversial and much more acceptable cultural movement which can and should be tolerated by all Irishmen. No matter where in the world it happens, all political parties should criticise organisations that burn symbols such as flags and effigies of relifious leaders. It is not in the democratic spirit, and does little else but radiate and provoke bitterness and division. what you need more than anything is visionary leadership. It was sad to see the extent of its absense last September. With the right approach, this can be developed. And, if what you really want is the right to ‘peaceful expression of culture’ then this is the ONLY way to achieve it. It is NOT impossible.

    Address to Nationalists coming up…

  • Resolve

    To Nationalists: Be careful not to make the mistake of thinking that the Orange Order is inherently ‘odious’ (FAO Prince Eoghan). Many parades may involve ‘odious’ elements, but this must be viewed in the context of the traumatising and polarising effects of the last 40 years. The Order is, first and foremost, a Irish Protestant commemorative association, and this need not offend. Indeed, any positive vision of a future democratic 32 county Republic must not ignore the metaphorical ‘Orange 1/3’ of the tricolour. You should not only envision ‘putting up’ with the Order’s continued popularity, but be proud of living in a country where different cultural expressions have equal confidence. That is the definition of democratic maturity. Be careful also, when seeing or hearing of repulsive actions associated with members of the Order, not to condemn the Order in itself. Use specific language that makes clear it is only the specific manifestation of hatred that you object to (e.g. buring of the Pope’s effigy, or the tricolour). This not only affords respect to the sensitivities of Orangemen, but opens the door to addressing those crude aspects of the marching season, and resolving the matter for future generations.
    Do not begrudge them their culture. Considering the way the word ‘culture’ has developed etymologically (so that now it can mean almost anything) it is ridiculous to say there is ‘no such thing’ as Orange culture. It may not be ‘your culture’, but it is an insult to say it is not a culture at all. I am a passionate lover of classical music, but think it ridiculously pompous for some of my friends to say ‘techno’ is ‘not music’. Don’t make the same mistake in the political arena, when much more is on the line.

  • lib2016

    Resolve,

    Good for you! Creating a cross-community event means inviting other communities to share in your celebrations. Where were the Muslim, the Jewish, the Catholic dignities? Where were politicans other than hardline unionists?

    Where was the imagination to have cross-community sports or historical enactments of some kind? (probably better to start off with ‘non-contact’ sports!)

    Even a few dozen people having a congenial meal together somewhere could have heralded a change in attitude.

  • Fanny

    Excellent posts, Resolve! I mean it.

    I’m all for culture, high or low. We need it, and it’s better than fighting. I’m against hypocrisy though and refuse to countenance the same old refrains every year from the OO, when they put on military displays and invite (or not) their terrorist mates along.

    Once again, lose the military marching, boys, and I’ll start believing your sincerity. Until then, take your hatred into a field somewhere out of sight.

  • Resolve

    FAO lib2016

    Apologies if i have misinterpreted your post as sarcastic, but if you are indeed being sarcastic, i can only answer in this way.

    You’ll note that everything I said concerned the evolution of the debate. pointing out that it is not perfect at present totally misses the point. If it was, then why would it need changing?

    Also, i think you read a little too much into what i have said. You assume that i want it to become cross community? That may be a little optimistic at present. Although not impossible in the long term, even considering such a long-term aspiration is futile. Let’s learn to walk before we run, yeah?
    But i must say that it need not necessarily be cross-community. There is a subtle but obvious difference between having an organisation that poses no threat to others and one that invites everyone along for some sort of democratic love-fest. Orangism is inherently protestant and so catholic participation, even if it WAS encouraged by the Order, would only ever be lukewarm. Again, don’t read too much in to what i am saying. I am speaking of the short-to-medium term.

    On a side note, if you are indeed being sarcastic, I wish you would keep it off Slugger. Sarcasm just doesn’t work online. To convey sarcasm, you need to hear ‘how’ someone says something, and not just the words themselves. You have confused me.

  • Alan2

    I don`t think we are going to lose the “military” marching. Many of the bands take part in competitions throughout the year and take great pride in competeing with other bands. Many Lodges are ex-military. What can be worked on is getting rid of the paramilitaries – I believe given time this will happen as the peace process beds down and if given the support they require the progressive elements will gain great influence. There were Mohawks at the parade and Chinese Lion dancers. THe Maiden City festival has had minority cultures at its events as well as Irish and Ulster-Scots. Many (if you watch the UTV and BBC coverage on the 12th night) of the 19 Twelfth venues had historical re-enactments including my own. On the 11th they had a childrens fun day, followed by an Ulster-Scots concert in the evening and fireworks at 10.45pm.

    It may not be entirely cross-community and I am not so sure it ever will be but it certainly was not odious. There is work to be done but I believe it can be achieved although I am against taking the Protestant ethos away from the celebrations but I have no problem with widening the appeal and removing / sidelining extremist elements which are unWelcome and UnChristian in nature.

  • Alan2

    “Creating a cross-community event”

    Define cross-community? If it means taking the ethos of the Orange out then it isnt going to happen! What is possible and in my opinion the way forward is “Orangefest” a Protestant Ulster-Scots Mardi gras that is tolerant of others and inoffensive. There is of course much work to be done to achieve this. Lets get started.

  • dantheman

    Instead of inviting chinese, red indians and huttentut tribes from africa, the orange order would be better served at reaching out to the majority tradition which inhabit this island. If not, it would indeed appear to be nothing more than an anti-catholic organisation.

    There are only one group of people that can remove the KAI bands and thats the OO itself. It appears that it has no intention of doing so. Not only does it practise such hypocrisy, it parades it. If it is unable to so, then it must be stopped. If these KAI bands must be arrested to stop parading on the streets then so be it.

  • Fanny

    OK, Alan, keep the marching – am I not generous? 🙂

    But do you need the “Derry, Aughrim, Enniskillen, Boyne” bollocks? Let’s remind ourselves that real people were torn to bits by cannon in those battles or suffered gruesome wounds. Why commemorate bloodshed? It’s unhealthy, at least we girls think so – I know you boys get off on it.

    If the OO is Christian then surely there’s Christian symbolism that can be paraded instead. Come on, work it out!

  • Resolve

    Admittedly, there is something inherently ludicrous in celebrating 300 year old battles in a country still divided by (more or less) the same divisions as were apparent at that time.

    It is one thing to have an annual celebration of an event which led to the peaceful stability of the country as a whole, and can be viewed by all its citizens as worthy of celebration. But this is hardly what the 12th of July is, Alan. I assure you that this is only a reminder. The more crude manifestations aside, I have no real problem with Orangism. In a part of the world with as tragic a history as ours, i’d rather ‘celebrate’ other things, but Orangemen can and should be able to celebrate such battles if they choose. However, don’t cry when most of the world laughs at you.

  • Fanny

    “Orangemen can and should be able to celebrate such battles if they choose.”

    True. But let them do it where they do no harm, i.e. in a field or stadium, and half the fucking province doesn’t have to vacate the place at the same time just so they can enjoy July like normal people.

  • Resolve

    Apologies if that sounded harsh, Alan. By ‘you’, i meant Orangemen, not you personally. I have been quite impressed by your constructive outlook, and wouldn’t want you to think i was personally criticising you.

  • EK SCOT

    WHEN WILL NATIONALISTS AND R.c’S. RELISE THAT THE REAL REASON FOR CELEBRATING THE 12th OF JULY IS THAT THE DEFEAT OF THE DESPOT ‘JAMES’. WHO WAS ALLIED TO THE KING/EMPORER OF FRANC AND WHO WAS IN COLLUSION WITH FRANCE FOR AN INVASION OF IRELAND. WITH WILLIAM’S VICTORY AT THE BOYNE THAT INVASION WAS PREVENTED AND THE CAUSE OF FREEDOM OF RELIGION WAS GRANTED TO ALL AND THAT INCLUDED ROMAN CATHOLICS.SO WHY ALL THE PROTESTS
    ABOUT CELEBRATING FREEDOM OF RELGION.

  • Fanny

    When will idiots realize that there’s a caps lock key next to their left pinkie that can be toggled inadvertently?

  • Many thanks to you, Aughavey, for that cultural infusion.

    I noticed that the Yank with the sword did a quick double take when he saw you with the camera.

    Noticed any odd clicks and pops on you telephone as of late?

  • Proud

    I agree with a lot of what Alan has to say. People should not forget that the Order is an organisation set up to maintain and strengthen protestantism – any celebrations by the Order will struggle to include large numbers of people who are not Protestant because of this fact.

    However, this does not necessarily mean we should ban parades as they are not inclusive. Can we really argue for the banning and, as one person here suggested, arrest of citizens wishing to celebrate and promote their religion in a legal fashion within a democratic society (partially reinforced, incidentally, by the Glorious Revolution)? The argument can be made that the Order also actively opposes the RC faith; do not forget however that is written into the Orange rules that all brethren must naver act uncharitably by word or action towards their RC neighbours.

    Therefore rather than trying to force the Order off the roads, I feel the goal should be to work to remove the more distasteful and downright disgusting elements of the Order (ditching bands named after paramilitaries for example) in order to render the event tolerable to all.

    No-one is expecting the citizens of Northern Ireland to dance up and down for joy every time the Order parade; however I would move that it is possible to render such events tolerable and respectable over time – witness the recent Sandy Row Community Festival as a small example of cross-community cooperation within a hardline area.

    Obviously work needs to be done, beginning with tightening up of the existing band contracts and a restructuring of the Order leadership to bring in new blood and give more disciplinary powers to the GOLI.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Proud: “However, this does not necessarily mean we should ban parades as they are not inclusive. Can we really argue for the banning and, as one person here suggested, arrest of citizens wishing to celebrate and promote their religion in a legal fashion within a democratic society (partially reinforced, incidentally, by the Glorious Revolution)?”

    If they tolerate, if not embrace, Loylist paramilitarism, then yes, I think parades can be banned. Are not the symbols of paramilitary organizations already illegal?

    Proud: “Therefore rather than trying to force the Order off the roads, I feel the goal should be to work to remove the more distasteful and downright disgusting elements of the Order (ditching bands named after paramilitaries for example) in order to render the event tolerable to all.

    That effort has already been made, Proud. Laws were passed that go unenforced by the police and ignored by the lodges. They ignore their own Order’s directives. What makes you think that they are worth any more effort?

    Also, would it be picking low-hanging fruit to point out the American OO members were from Alabama??

  • lib2016

    Resolve,

    I’m certainly not being sarcastic, though it probably shows how far we have to go in NI that you think I might be.

    On the contrary I’m agnostic myself but would have no problem in going to a church fete in England or elsewhere for example, or a Mardi Gras come to that. Why shouldn’t people celebrate their identity?

    The problem is the need felt by some people to insult other’s identities and all communities can be guilty of that.

    The Orange Order needs to clean up it’s act but their are plenty in other communities, including the republican community, who need to do that.

    I lived in Holland for a few years and arrived for the first time on their Orange Day in May. It was really upsetting for an hour or two, then faded into the background. Hopefully acceptance of each other’s symbols will happen here soon. More and more people seem to be realising that we can’t go on as we are.

  • Prince Eoghan

    I would only be stealing Kensei’s thunder by re-iterating his take on the OO. I fully agree with his assessment that as soon as the OO becomes more pro-Prod and less anti-fenian/catholic, the sooner it becomes less of a problem.

    Alan.

    “”Creating a cross-community event”

    Define cross-community? If it means taking the ethos of the Orange out then it isnt going to happen! What is possible and in my opinion the way forward is “Orangefest” a Protestant Ulster-Scots Mardi gras that is tolerant of others and inoffensive. There is of course much work to be done to achieve this. Lets get started.

    Posted by Alan2 on Jul 15, 2006 @ 04:43 PM

    At the moment this seems impossible. However I am an optimist, I for one am more than willing to support good people doing good things. The reality is that the law needs to work in the same way in the UK as it does in other parts of the world. And that means zero toleramce for hatred. I would love to say well meaning things that are supportive of you alan, but we both know that this nonsense isn’t going to end voluntarily. I support you in your quest(if that is what it is) and hope like minded people follow your example.

  • Resolve

    FAO lib2016

    Like I anticipated, i was wrong to sense sarcasm, though i think it stems more from my understanding of ‘culture’ than it does stem from any in-built Northern Irish political defensiveness…

    In many ways, I view culture in Straussian terms, as exposited by the late Allan Bloom – a ‘right’ perspective, which is not normally where i dwell. I don’t think there is anything wrong with ethnocentricity. The Americans, who for example in the 60s introduced ‘the study of another culture’ into their education system as a compulsory 1st year module, transmogrified the concept of culture. To many Americans, culture is a set of rituals, dresses, music, customs, etc. Such a perspective serves the American democratic concept of sameness, one that i detest. Culture is really about an identity, a distinct way of seeing the world, one which is inevitably different than other outlooks.

    Now, as Protestant theology conflicts so strongly with modern secular agnosticism/atheism, i wonder why exactly you would WANT to participate. I am sure it is well intentioned. ‘Any reason for a party’ is usually good enough for me, and im sure you envisage that the participation of you and other like-minded people would ‘take the sectarian sting’ out of Orangism. However that may be, your intentions can only be achieved by diluting Orange culture away to nothing. They will not let that happen, and neither can they be expected to. But neither should anyone be offended by this. To me, democratic maturity is about each culture being able to shine side by side in their full ‘glory’, not diluting each down so that they are all more or less the same, except for e.g. the colour of the shirts worn. While this second vision may achieve political stability, it would result in some very superficial and culturally-deprived people. That is one sacrifice too far, in my opinion (any cynics out there, please don’t make the point that this perfectly defines Northern Irishmen!)

    Which brings me to my reason for posting this convoluted mess (apologies for the articulation,l have been partying in Dublin for the last week!)… cross community need not be our guiding star, ALL THE TIME! Surely, in education it is imperative, and in many other areas also. Yet people’s specific cultural heritage should not be dimmed in the interests of convenience. You were wrong to read into my original posts a wish for a cross-community 12th. It need not necessarily be so. And a pro-Protestant ethos (as Brian Kennaway recently said, although the credit on this thread has been given to ‘Kensei’) need not necessarily result in bitterness and antagonism.

  • Alan2

    “Instead of inviting chinese, red indians and huttentut tribes from africa”

    Are you in the KKK? LOL – joking mate but that is slightly derogatory terms for those folks is it not?

    The Mohawks are part of the Mohawk Orange Lodge from Canada some of whom would be marching in toronto today where the World Orange Council was being held and the Twelfth celebrations were delayed two days till the 15th in Toronto so the two would coincide.

    “But do you need the “Derry, Aughrim, Enniskillen, Boyne” bollocks?”

    Is it really bollocks? Its not really about the battles themselves but about the freedom gaineGd from the repercussions of those battles. The Glorious revolution saw the despotic English King James dethroned and replace by the more tolerant Mary and Dutch King William who gave power to Parliament (getting rid of the “Divine Right of Kings)and introduced the 1689 Bill of Rights.

  • Resolve

    FAO Alan2…

    I fully concur with your understanding of the general intention of the comemmorating such battles. However, to derive from these historical facts (namely the original intentions of the Order) an impression that democracy is the pillar of Orangism is a bit rich. Their exclusivity is not what i refer to. If they were really celebrating the origins of important civil liberties, then they would recognise that most of those same rights are now protected in the Republic of Ireland, a country whose flag is regularly burned on Orange bonfires. Also, considering the legal rights of Catholics (of course, the majority of people) in Ireland in the 140 years following this ‘Glorious’ revolution, we come full circle and once again see the origins of Catholic distrust of the Order.

    One may come and read this discussion, notice superficially that we are talking about history, and make some comment about us living in the past. However, these things need discussion, and i am happy to discuss them with you. Unlike most Orangemen, i get the impression that you are not at all trapped in a time warp.

  • Ciaran damery

    “Orange carnival” – you say. Methinks the term Fascist Fest would be more appropriate.

  • Alan2

    Which of the clips did you find objectionable and why?

  • Fanny

    “Is it really bollocks? Its not really about the battles themselves but about the freedom gaineGd from the repercussions of those battles.”

    Bollocks heaped upon bollocks, Alan. So the sham fight at Scarva every 13th July is a reconstruction of an intellectual discussion is it?

    Admit it, OO, fess up, act like men, grow up, lose the bellicose symbolism and learn to love your neighbour.

  • Proud

    Dread

    If they tolerate, if not embrace, Loylist paramilitarism, then yes, I think parades can be banned. Are not the symbols of paramilitary organizations already illegal?

    Yes they are, anyone flying them should face the full rigors of the law – hence the reason why I said Can we really argue for the banning and, as one person here suggested, arrest of citizens wishing to celebrate and promote their religion in a legal fashion

    Dread

    That effort has already been made, Proud. Laws were passed that go unenforced by the police and ignored by the lodges.

    Again, anyone breaking the law should be arrested – also my stance on indivdual lodges having too much authority is covered by asking for a “restructuring of the Order leadership to bring in new blood and give more disciplinary powers to the GOLI.”

    Dread

    Also, would it be picking low-hanging fruit to point out the American OO members were from Alabama??

    A little bit childish maybe.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Proud: “Yes they are, anyone flying them should face the full rigors of the law – hence the reason why I said Can we really argue for the banning and, as one person here suggested, arrest of citizens wishing to celebrate and promote their religion in a legal fashion”

    And, as I pointed out, the law goes unenforced. Until and unless that happens, matters may require more extreme measures, upto and possibly including the banning of parades. If the children can’t color inside the lines, what is the point of giving them coloring books?

    Proud: “Again, anyone breaking the law should be arrested – also my stance on indivdual lodges having too much authority is covered by asking for a “restructuring of the Order leadership to bring in new blood and give more disciplinary powers to the GOLI.”

    Do you honestly think that the individual lodges will simply come to and surrender local authority? If your going to propose solutions, at least choose some that have a snowball’s chance in Hades. I also note some selective quoting on your part. As I point out to you, they ignore the GOLI and their own leaders as well.

    Proud: “A little bit childish maybe. ”

    Ever been to Alambama, Proud?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Dread.

    Get a load of this.

    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=62306135743

    I got it from the Balrog site. It is about Willie Frazier being interviewed in the states. It really is quite incredible. Press play and promise to pay your dues later.

    I’m sure from his accent, that this guy is not from Alabama, but he should be;¬)

  • The Devil

    Thanks for the link, P.E. Some jewels there:

    Brief Sermon Overview:
    William Frazer – IRA’s Terror Campaign Continues, Vicious Attack against Christian Brother * Commentary – Beware of 101 Frequently Asked Questions about Homosexuality by Focus on the Family’s Mike Haley * Pastor Kevin Keenan – Proclaiming the Gospel in Central London * Various Issues – Report on Open-Air Witness in Monroe, Presbyterian Church USA Allows Ordination of Sodomite Clergy and Embraces Gender Inclusive Language for the Trinity, and More

    By the sound of that last one, those Presbyterian Church USA people are heading my way fast. I’ll have Beelzebub and the boys prepare an extra spit or two.

  • Reader

    fanny: grow up, lose the bellicose symbolism and learn to love your neighbour.
    Is this still about the 4 battles? Is it OK to fight for freedom, but then to forget those who fought?

  • Fanny

    Reader, you’ve overlooked the most important item in the list: love your neighbour. If you learned to do that then you’d know that reminding him that your ancestor’s victory was his ancestor’s defeat ain’t nice, and certainly not neighbourly.

    But hey, if you’re a Christian then I’m preaching to the converted, right? You know all this stuff.

  • I’m sure from his accent, that this guy is not from Alabama, but he should be;¬)

    Hell, even a redneck like me can utter a few words without lapsing into the hound dawg dilect. But, I digress…..

    The URL is administered in Greenville, South Carolina.

    Bob Jones University is located in Greeville, South Carolina.

    It ain’t rocket science, ‘yall.

  • Reader

    Fanny: your ancestor’s victory was his ancestor’s defeat ain’t nice, and certainly not neighbourly.
    Freedom is freedom, and a victory for all, even if themmuns haven’t recognised it yet. Likewise, do you hope to celebrate a United Ireland at some time in the future?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Smilin.

    It was posted in the spirit of the previous Dread post. No anti-red neck inference should be took.

    Have you listened to it, quite an education in self absorbed evil, the devil@ 07:24 PM has a good solution. LOL

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Eoghan: “It was posted in the spirit of the previous Dread post. No anti-red neck inference should be took. ”

    There’s red-necks and then there’s crackers, Eoghan. And, yes, there is a difference twixt the two.

    I’ll listen to it later, guessing that its not, shall we say, “work safe.”

  • It was posted in the spirit of the previous Dread post. No anti-red neck inference should be took.No probem,

    Being an inbred, slackjawed, country SOB was a point of civic pride where I grew up. Hell, I’ll teach yer feckin’ highness the white trash version of eboniics some day if you have the time.

    My intent in showing the Bob Jones association with Frasier was to make the Pailsey connection obvious.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Dread/Smilin.

    I come from the finest grade trailer trash myself. Some of my Dad’s best stories involve fights b/w the big Irish and Gypsy families whilst picking the berries in rural Scotland in the 60’s.

    The bugger refuses to tell me about the gypsy women, only the fighting. Apparently my granda used to come up from the town where he was living in the lap of luxury to pocket all the cash. When times were rough he used to take on all comers and bet on himself.

    Sure we come from crazy stock, but we aint nuts. Yee-haa. Now who can say that about the Jones boys?