McGuinness: Free Presbyterian Taliban…

Martin McGuinness is clearly gunning for the DUP in the propaganda war. His latest line is to characterise the Free Presbyterians in the DUP as the Taliban. Hmmm… Can’t see it taking off somehow… The wider news agenda is likely to throw the comparison into an awkward light: for example, here and here.

  • [i]”Simply put, the police were policemen.[/i]

    Sorry, TAF, wrong again. the whole point is that the police were NOT being civic or criminal police but were also secret police, suppressing dissent and political opponents.

    [i]”You are suggesting that they placed themselves in the position of being legitimate targets by being Unionists.”[/i]

    Sorry, TAF, wrong again. I am not suggesting, but saying that they were legitimate targets because they were poltical police, i.e. suppressing political dissent. They were not targetted because they were unionist but because they were an armed force supporting an illegitimate government.

    Don’t try to put words in my mouth, TAK.

  • kabul striker

    Is see that the Taliban within the Irish Football Association are heading to the courts.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/5130662.stm

  • TAFKABO

    You’re also ignoring the issues of power, discrimination, etc., but I suspect you know that.

    Yes, I believe that you probably suspect that.That in itself doesn’t make it so, only that you are unable to accept that other persectives than your own exist.

    The blurring comes when people try to tell me that religion is not a factor in the various republican campaigns, when there is abundant evidence that people were targetted for their religion.

    Bob argues that it is an irrelevant detail that the policemen killed were mainly protestant, but how does that square with the fact that the IRA were blatantly sectarian at the start of the troubles?
    At what point did being a protestant become irrelevant?
    How many times has the IRA bombed the Shankill,and every time it never occured to them that it was a sectarian act?

    When the last Shankill bomb was planned, did they really think they would set of a bomb on a busy Saturday and only UDA godfathers would be affected?

    You tell me that I am the one ignoring issues?

    When was the last time a republican on these boards could even bring themselves to type the word Darkley?
    Bob sits there with his little abacus, doing his sums, and for some reason has decided that all the other Republican groups are completely unrelated to discussions concerning Northern Ireland, and I’m the one ignoring things?

    When I watched people scream the words ‘Orange Bastards’ in Dublin earlier this year, was that a political or sectarian statement?

  • TAFKABO

    How sere they secret police? what was secret?

    How were they supporting an illegitimate government?

    How was the governent illegitemate?

    Are you just making this shit up as you go along?

    They were Unionists who felt (correctly) the goverment was legitimate.
    They took a decision to support and uphold the state.
    This is a perfectly valid position to hold (unless you have also rewritten the Geneva convention on human rights).They were targetted for not being republicans.

    Riddle me this.

    If they were legitimate targets then, are they still legitimate targets now?

  • TAFKABO

    Please excuse the typing in that last post.

  • Yoda

    Yes, you are ignoring things, and striving for a wounded tone in your post won’t change that.

  • TAFKABO

    Yoda.

    I don’t strive for a wounded tone,well not anymore than you strive to come across like a patronising twat.

  • [i]”The blurring comes when people try to tell me that religion is not a factor in the various republican campaigns, when there is abundant evidence that people were targetted for their religion.”[/i]

    You have produced no such evidence. Defending a community under siege from their attackers is not sectarian — even if the attackers are sectarian killers.

    [i]”Bob argues that it is an irrelevant detail that the policemen killed were mainly protestant, but how does that square with the fact that the IRA were blatantly sectarian at the start of the troubles?”[/i]

    That well may be your opinion but you have produced not even one scintilla of supporting evidence that it is true.

    [i]”When was the last time a republican on these boards could even bring themselves to type the word Darkley?”[/i]

    You keep ignoring that bottom line, i.e. when all is said and done, the Army, the RUC and their hired thugs killed 2 civilians for every one killed by the PIRA.

    [i]”Bob sits there with his little abacus, doing his sums, and for some reason has decided that all the other Republican groups are completely unrelated to discussions concerning Northern Ireland, and I’m the one ignoring things?”[/i]

    Hmm, but it’s only the PIRA that you keep harping about. In the face of overhelming evidence of British and unionist culpability, you keep trying to tell us that Sinn Fein cannot sit in government because they are allied to terrorists. But, you completely ignore that 800 lb. canary, i.e. the horrific record of the government through its agencies in NI, ie. the British Army and the RUC and the thugs they hired to help them in their campaign to terrorize the Irish/Catholic/nationalist communirty because they protested the legalized discrimination of the Stormont regime. And, then, you tell us that it is quite alright to attack innocent civilians because they supported their defenders.

  • TAFKABO

    You have produced no such evidence.

    Well, I mentioned the numerous Shankill bombs and the Darkley massacre.

    Did you just not see those parts of my posts?

  • TAFKABO

    Hmm, but it’s only the PIRA that you keep harping about.

    Au contraire.

    You’re the one who seems to set the IRA apart from everyone else.

    In the face of overhelming evidence of British and unionist culpability, you keep trying to tell us that Sinn Fein cannot sit in government because they are allied to terrorists.

    I wasn’t even aware that we were having that discussion, let alone what I am supposed to have said.
    When exactly did I say these things Bob?

    But, you completely ignore that 800 lb. canary, i.e. the horrific record of the government through its agencies in NI, ie. the British Army and the RUC and the thugs they hired to help them in their campaign to terrorize the Irish/Catholic/nationalist communirty because they protested the legalized discrimination of the Stormont regime. And, then, you tell us that it is quite alright to attack innocent civilians because they supported their defenders.

    What?

    You losing the sense of yourself now.
    Believe me, I’m capable of saying more than enough stuff for us to disagree on, you don’t have to make up shit just to keep the argument going.

  • [/i]In view of your comments above, I now expect you to tell us that the DUP has no basis for refusing to sit in government with Sinn Fein.

    For the simple reason that they have no problem at all in working with the death squads.

    Right, TAF?

  • TAFKABO

    Did someone just turn over two pages at once?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “The blurring comes when people try to tell me that religion is not a factor in the various republican campaigns, when there is abundant evidence that people were targetted for their religion. ”

    Assuming, arguendo, that religion was a factor, who made it so? If the RUC was overwhelmingly Protestant, who created it thusly?

    The Catholics did not create the sectarian divide in Ireland, TAFKABO. To blame them for it takes a bit of chutzpah, akin to the old chestnut about the man who kills his own parents, then cries piteously for leniency for being an orphan.

    TAFKABO: “They were Unionists who felt (correctly) the goverment was legitimate. ”

    I’m sure there is no shortage of dubious governments that perceive themselves as legitimate and are perceived as legitimate by others. That said, painting a wolf brown doesn’t make it a cow.

    TAFKABO: “I don’t strive for a wounded tone,well not anymore than you strive to come across like a patronising twat. ”

    Does it just come naturally, then?

  • TAFKABO

    Assuming, arguendo, that religion was a factor, who made it so? If the RUC was overwhelmingly Protestant, who created it thusly?

    Not me, and not the scores of people who were killed.

    The Catholics did not create the sectarian divide in Ireland, TAFKABO. To blame them for it takes a bit of chutzpah, akin to the old chestnut about the man who kills his own parents, then cries piteously for leniency for being an orphan.

    I’m not blaming “the catholics” for anything, but it must take some pretty big blinkers for you to argue on the one hand that the republican campaign wasn’t sectarian and then to refer to them as “the catholics”.
    Not to mention that you are now arguing well, they started it

    I’m sure there is no shortage of dubious governments that perceive themselves as legitimate and are perceived as legitimate by others. That said, painting a wolf brown doesn’t make it a cow.

    Again, you miss the point.For believeing the government was legitimate and hoinging the police, people were excecuted in by the score.
    Are you saying the fact that they dodn’t see eye to eye with you on this subject made them legitmate targets for excecution?

    Does it just come naturally, then?

    I always know you people have been hit hard by some uncomfortabe truths when you start in with the personal remarks.

  • Christopher Stalford

    TAF

    You’re wasting your time. The IRA were saints, Darkley, Kingsmills, The Shankill, Enniskillen, Claudy – all accidents you understand that should in no way diminish the satnding of these comrades of Dr. Martin Luther King – honestly you people make me sick.

  • sit in government” is that the phrase for those time and money wasters with offices up @ The White Elephant Upper Newtownards Road, Belfast.
    I’m sure the people of both Northern Ireland and Great Britain can’t wait until payback time (they should payback the money they didn’t work for).

  • Nevin

    [i]The Catholics did not create the sectarian divide in Ireland[/i]

    Catholic and Free Presbyterian authorities appear to be the keenest on self-imposed apartheid. Do they have a superiority complex – or an overwhelming need to exercise control over their members?

  • Christopher Stalford

    “The Catholics did not create the sectarian divide in Ireland”. No the Protestants did by daring to exist in the first place and refusing to be driven out in the second.

  • [i]”You’re wasting your time. The IRA were saints, Darkley, Kingsmills, The Shankill, Enniskillen, Claudy – all accidents you understand that should in no way diminish the satnding of these comrades of Dr. Martin Luther King – honestly you people make me sick.”[/i]

    Hmmm….. I haven’t noticed anyone here defending or denying any of the incidents you mention.

    What I [b]do notice[/b] is your refusal to address the simple issue that the British security forces and their hired thugs killed 2 innocent bystanders for every one killed by the PIRA.Seems to me that you are the one dodging the issue.

  • Christopher Stalford

    Your moral relativism is revolting. It reminds me of those revisionists who try to argue the Holocaust needs to be set in the context of the blanket-bombing of Dresden. Justify murder all uou like Bob, but you only expose your own prejudice in so doing.

  • [i]”Your moral relativism is revolting.”[/i]

    Seems to me that I am not the one ignoring some 1,064 killings. Nor am I ignoring 516 killings.

    All I’m doing is pointing out that the 1,064 killimgs by the security forces and their hired thugs are ignored or forgotten by both the British and the unionist community.

    In point of fact, both HMG and the unionist community approved those killings by their silence, it seems to me. Old adage: “Silence gives consent”. Both HMG and the unionist community and leadership — civic, political and religious — have not addressed the problem of the death squads and are not addressing it to this day.

    seems to me, Chris, that the moral relativism is alive and well in the British government and in the British/unionist/Protestaant community in NI.

  • na

    ‘Can’t see it taking off somehow’

    IIRC the phrase was coined by Slugger’s own Jimmy Sands.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “I always know you people have been hit hard by some uncomfortabe truths when you start in with the personal remarks.”

    Ah, yes… “you people…” nothing ike making grand sweeping generalizatons to engender open conversation…

    And it has more to do with your deliberate obtuseness than any “point-scoring” you’ve achieved in this exchange. Any point you *might* have under your attitude problem gets lost, somewhere between the outbursts of vulgarity, the over-weening arrogance and deliberate obtuseness.

    Nevin: “Catholic and Free Presbyterian authorities appear to be the keenest on self-imposed apartheid. Do they have a superiority complex – or an overwhelming need to exercise control over their members? ”

    Bad habits tend to linger — the longer they’ve been had, the harder they are to get rid of. As for superiority complpex, I would note that the Protestant minority in Ireland (later the Protestant majority in Northern Ireland) had such and sought to enforce it through discriminatory law. As for Roman Catholics… not sure what pathology I would use to describe. Its not really an inferiority complex… It may simply be that a generation or two is needed to “clean out” the leaders who still see things as “war by other means.”

    Christopher Stalford: “The Catholics did not create the sectarian divide in Ireland”. No the Protestants did by daring to exist in the first place and refusing to be driven out in the second. ”

    Actually, they did out of their self-perceived cultural superiority, their discriminatory body of law and their ethnic cleansing of the north… or did you imagine “To Hell or Connaught” was just an idle phrase?