Shoukris reject UDA expulsion call

The UTV website is reporting a statement in response to yesterday’s statement from the UDA expelling Andre and Ihab Shoukri. Which provides an answer to the question posed at the end of this assessment of the situation by the BBC’s Vincent Kearney.. to which I’ll just add the two items I noted in the comments on the previous thread – the comments of Judge Burgess at the trial of Ihab Shoukri on the dropping of UDA/UFF membership charges.. and the reported forthcoming meeting between another UDA leader and the President of the Republic of Ireland.

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  • Loyalist

    We should brace ourselves for another round of blood letting.

    When thieves fall out…..

  • heres hoping

    heres hoping

  • pacman

    Are we to suppose that now that the North Belfast Brigade have confirmed their membership of an outlawed organisation, that the PSNI will now rearrest them and a successful prosecution will follow?

    I’ll not hold my breath – I suspect their former colleagues will deal out the only justice they understand.

  • Loyalist

    hh

    Agreed.

  • Garibaldy

    Loyalist,

    Are you suggesting that you want to see terrorist murders take place? I thought I remembered you posting before on the upholding of law and order.
    Surely a peaceful parting of the ways would be better, as it would avoid deaths, and make it easier for the PSNI to concentrate on taking down these weakened criminal gangs one at a time if they do not cease their activities.

    I suspect however that there will be another feud, although it’s possible that this could be bluster from supporters of those expelled, and that the resolve would melt in the face of serious confrontation the way the Shankill people’s did.

  • pacman

    It would appear that the Troon Brigade of the UDA may be about to swell it’s members. God help the (real) Scots!

  • loftholdingswood

    I am sure that the genuine members of North Belfast will see sense and acquiesce to the call of the Inner Council. History suggests a round of bloodletting but we are in a new era and behind the scenes discussions will hopefully avoid any problems.

  • Rory

    All this is making me quite nostalgic to watch “My Darling Clementine” once again. But this time with Andre, Henry Fonda like, in the role of Wyatt Earp and Ihab as Virgil. But who will play their ally Doc Holliday? It was Victor Mature in the original so that might help with casting decicions. Ike, the leader of the Clanton gang, was played by Walter Brennan in the original. The question is, can Jackie McDonald step into Walter’s boots? John Ford was in charge of direction last time. I wonder who is doing the directing on this one.

    Then, as the gunsmoke clears at the Not-so-OK Corral, who will be left standing? In Tombstone the control of gambling, drinking and whoring was at stake and it was winner take all. High stakes to play for, pardner, and only one last roll of the dice.

    Coming soon to a drinking den or massage parlour near you!!!

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    I thought that at the time of the Adair expulsion Andre was to be the saviour of the UDA in North Belfast area. That he would be the new face of the UDA and be at variance to the old regime supported at that time by Adair from his West Belfast bolthole.
    I distinctly remember the senior UPRG spokesperson Sammy Duddy saying as much and comparing the ‘tall’, ‘good looking’ (apparently) Andre with the small, squat and ugly Adair.

    So it seems that the UPRG called that one wrong. A point for unionists to consider is that the problem is not who leads the UDA in any particular area but the UDA itself.

  • pacman

    I dying to know if a genuine member is one without the fake tan and steroids?

  • Mickaline

    Garibaldy

    “Are you suggesting that you want to see terrorist murders take place?”

    I’m pretty sure there aren’t many people that want to see terrorist murder taking place in NI.

    BUTTT, if loyalists want to have another go at each other, then so be it. A few less loyalist criminals isn’t going to matter.

  • Garibaldy

    Mickaline,

    You can bet you’re bottom dollar that if another feud kicks off Gerry Kelly will be on the TV saying something like ‘I’m calling on nationalists to be increasingly vigilant as history tells us the way loyalists try and band together is by killing Catholics.’

    He says it every time. I think it’s not necessarily 100% accurate, but it does point out a danger that any violence has the potential to spill over. So a few less loyalist criminals might well matter.

    It’s said one third of people killed in the troubles were killed in a mile triangle, much of it in north Belfast. Many of the sectarian murders and attacks since the ceasefires in 1994 have been in North Belfast, carried out by the north Belfast and south east Antrim UDA. If one of these groups, silently abetted perhaps by elements of the other if the media is to be believed, breaks away, then that might be very destabilising over the summer, particularly given that the Whitewell Road has been such a flashpoint, as well as areas like Ligoneil etc.

  • elfinto

    The idea of getting these guys in a big field and having a wild west style shoot out is appealing but unfortunately thats not how it works. Usually these feuds result in the death and injury of innocent people. The last time there was a feud a guy who had the misfortune to resemble someone else was walking his dog down the Crumlin Road when he was blasted in the face with a shotgun. The poor guy was left permanently blinded.

    Is it any wonder so much unionist north Belfast is in ruins when these goons are running amok?

  • Turbo Paul

    As with all wars, when there is an end to military action the paramilitaries who provided criminal money during the conflict are abandoned by the political wings.

    The moderate side of the UDA/UVF must either break from those engaged in criminality, or assimilate into the political wing of Loyalism.

    David Irvine should be encouraged and offered help in isolating those who wish to remain involved in criminality.

    The criminals on both sides of the divide must be told in no uncertain terms:

    “Thank-you for your help during the war, but now you must join other conventional criminals and take your chance against the system, employing top lawyers as other criminals do to try and beat the wrap, the days of hiding behind a political ideal to justify criminality are over for good”

    The UDA/UVF if it wants to remain in existence must take this action now!!

    The only other alternative is for law abiding UDA/UVF members to join one of the mainstream political parties, or form a law abbiding new version of UDA/UVF.

  • lib2016

    The loyalist paramilitaries were tools of the British government. Before any experienced workman (and in these matters the British have experience right round the world) leaves his work he tidies his tools away.

    Nothing to get get excited about here. Just the end of one shift and the beginning of another.

  • paddyjoe

    law abiding UDA/UVF….surely an oxymoron if i ever saw one

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Loftholdingswood: “I am sure that the genuine members of North Belfast will see sense and acquiesce to the call of the Inner Council. History suggests a round of bloodletting but we are in a new era and behind the scenes discussions will hopefully avoid any problems. ”

    Right… just like the last several “personnel issues” the UDA has had in the last year or so. Not hoping you’re wrong, just not holding much hope.

    Turbo Paul: “As with all wars, when there is an end to military action the paramilitaries who provided criminal money during the conflict are abandoned by the political wings. ”

    Actually, you are lumping about three problems in together. In any “revolutionary group,” you end up with a couple strata — the politico / true believers, the opportunists and the Neandrathals. At the end, assuming at least a push, the politicos go into politics, the opportunists stay in crime and both worry about the killers. Demobilizing weapons is the easy part. What do you do with the warriors once the war is over? PIRA has done all three, but had a strong connection to SF. Hopefully, the bulk will go into politics / normal life. The Loyalists never had a strong bond to politics but didn’t really need one, since they went a-thuggin’ for the status quo. Whether PUP abandoned the UVF or simply acknowledged diverging paths is open to discussion. The UDA’s political wing is minimal. Beyond that, both Loyalist and Republican, the politicos are thin and few at best. The problem(s) are more complicated than you present them.

    The Loyalists were, arguable, an extension of the UK’s “countergang” strategy, as deployed in Kenya and the Middle East prior to the Troubles.

  • Turbo Paul

    Anyone within the UDA/UVF, PIRA, CIRA, RIRA, who has not been convicted of a crime or even with a criminal record, but wants to honestly lobby for their respective cause, should be encouraged and offered a forum to do this lawfully.

  • Rory

    I’m not so sure that the men who provided the bankroll are, at the end of all conflicts, abandoned by the politicos. Stalin bankrolled the Bolsheviks through bank robbery and Trotsky condemned the methods he used for raising the funds but we know to whom the politicos gave the heave-ho in the end. But maybe that was because Stalin had the better moustache.

  • loftholdingswood

    Turbo Paul,

    I agree with you and thank you for your comments.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Rory, the determining factor is that Trotsky, for all his failings, was an idealist and Stalin was a sociopath.

  • Garibaldy

    On what basis Dread are you suggesting that Stalin was a sociopath? And on what basis are you suggesting that he wasn’t motivated by ideas? It’s not Animal Farm is it?

    I think that Stalin won the power struggle because he had the confidence of the Party and the people and because his was the correct position for addressing the realities of the USSR in the 1920s, whereas Trotsky was a blow-in to the Bolshevik party, and lived in cloud cuckoo land.

    Trotsky was nuts, and Trotskyism is an ideology for the mentally unstable. Hence its abject failure absolutely everywhere. Even that madman Pol Pot could successfully form a revolutionary movement – Trotsky and troskyism could not.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Garibaldy: “On what basis Dread are you suggesting that Stalin was a sociopath? And on what basis are you suggesting that he wasn’t motivated by ideas? It’s not Animal Farm is it? ”

    No. Just look at his history, his words — “one man’s death is a tragedy, a million dead a statistic?” He was definately paranoid, hence the various purges of the Soviet military, leaving him with no political competition, but few competant military leaders. He certainly seemed to think the world danced on his string, hence his denial of the obvious preparations by Germany for Operation Barbarossa, including openly massing troops and high altitude incursions by Folke-Wulf reconaissance aircraft and his subsequent mental paralysis in the immediate aftermath of the invasion. We can quibble about what sort of socially abnormal paranoid meglomaniac he was, but he certainly wasn’t playing with a full deck of cards.

    And what gives you the notion that sociopaths don’t have ideas? Their problem is a lack of empathy, not intellect. Psychopaths are the ones who lack control, not sociopaths.

  • Garibaldy

    I’ve always taken that quote about a statistic to be a comment on how people react to tragedy. We can react to one death at an emotional level, but 1 million deaths is too big a concept to deal with in that way.

    On the paranoia. Perhaps you’ll appreciate this quote from Kissinger, that even paranoids have enemies. The fact of the matter is that had any of Stalin’s enemies from the left or right succeeded he, and a great many others, would have been executed. Read Trotsky’s correspondence and it’s quite clear that there were numerous Trotskist plots active within the USSR. Not to mention the spying and activities of the capitalist powers, who after all had sent numerous armies to try and defeat the Bolsheviks.
    So there was a history and a very real possibility of coups, plots etc. Taking action against them isn’t paranoia.

    On the German thing. I think Stalin knew fine rightly war was inevitable, hence the Polish deal, so it would start as far west as possible. This is a major reason why the army was thoroghly purged. Couldn’t have these people betraying the country in war. Clearly preparations were being made – all the industry just didn’t move itself so quickly, and the T-34 was designed and sent into mass production for a reason.

    On the ideas point, you said the difference was Trotsky was an idealist, Stalin a sociopath. Suggesting Stalin wasn’t an idealist. I’d say be was motivated by ideology just as much as Trotsky. After all, the USSR during the period of his leadership transformed itself in an idealistic crusade to create a better future for the whole of humankind. And it had huge successes.

    On the whole, I prefer to exercise my own judgment when it comes to Soviet history, ignoring the bias of the vast majority of the book on it, looking at things from the perspective of the Soviets and avoiding simplistic solutions that attribute devil-like influence and abilities to a single man. Even one as great, and sometimes as flawed, as Uncle Joe.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Garibaldy: “On the paranoia. Perhaps you’ll appreciate this quote from Kissinger, that even paranoids have enemies. ”

    True, but 1,000,000+ enemies? This is the most conservative is 1,000,000, using the most restrictive definition, the most “liberal” being 100,000,000, based on the notion of any and all who died of an unnatural death during Stalin’s reign. This million doesn’t include the Ukrainians who were starved, or the Kulaks who were killed, etc. These are the strictly political deaths. After the first couple thousand, its paranoia, Garibaldy.

    Garibaldy: “On the German thing. I think Stalin knew fine rightly war was inevitable, hence the Polish deal, so it would start as far west as possible. This is a major reason why the army was thoroghly purged. Couldn’t have these people betraying the country in war. Clearly preparations were being made – all the industry just didn’t move itself so quickly, and the T-34 was designed and sent into mass production for a reason. ”

    Ah, but his denial that the Germans would invade when the did, despite the overwhelming evidence from his and other intelligence services, suggests a level of denial beyond the reasonable. I am not saying he didn’t think the Germans would turn on him. I’m saying he thought the Germans would turn on him when he wanted them to. Why else his mental incapacity following the Nazi invasion? Likewise, his purges left the Soviet army leaderless. Were it not for a late start, due to Hitler having to bail his fellow fascist out of his Greek adventure and a truly impressive display by General Winter, Stalin’s detachment from reality could have led to an early end to the Russian Front, as there was literally almost no one capable of picking up the reins of power, should Moscow have fallen to the Germans.

    Garibaldy: “On the ideas point, you said the difference was Trotsky was an idealist, Stalin a sociopath. Suggesting Stalin wasn’t an idealist. I’d say be was motivated by ideology just as much as Trotsky. After all, the USSR during the period of his leadership transformed itself in an idealistic crusade to create a better future for the whole of humankind. And it had huge successes. ”

    Right… and the Berlin Wall was built to keep all the desperate Western capitalists out of the worker’s paradise… and no one starved in the Ukraine… and only bad folks got sent to the gulags…

    Garibaldy: “On the whole, I prefer to exercise my own judgment when it comes to Soviet history, ignoring the bias of the vast majority of the book on it, looking at things from the perspective of the Soviets and avoiding simplistic solutions that attribute devil-like influence and abilities to a single man. Even one as great, and sometimes as flawed, as Uncle Joe. ”

    Post WW2, perhaps — something about losing that many people will effect the psychology of a whole nation. However, Stalin was not a stable personality. We can debate the exact of his particular psychological condition, but he was a little more than “flawed.” Womanizing is a flaw. Corruption is a flaw. I’ll go so far as to say an addictive personality is a flaw. Killing millions of your own people is a little more than a simple “flaw,” Garibaldy. The starvation of the Ukraine, the effort against the Kulaks, the folly of the Winter War with Finland, etc. These are not the actions of a healthy, balanced psyche.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Garibaldy:

    But maybe that was because Stalin had the better moustache.

    I can assure you that my moustache is kept in good order by application of some olive oil and an old stiff toothbrush.

    On more serious matters, like my close friend Kim Jong-Il, I’m glad I’ve got misguided people like you to apologize for the outrageous crimes I committed when myself and my band of pals appointed ourselves as the post-modern monarchs of a new Russian empire. Please continue your efforts to airbrush my blood-soaked regime.

    On the German thing. I think Stalin knew fine rightly war was inevitable, hence the Polish deal, so it would start as far west as possible. This is a major reason why the army was thoroghly purged.

    Thank you for the flattery. I always get a warm feeling from being in the company of a kindred spirit who, like myself, shows utter contempt for the intelligence of the general public. Between you and me though, even when my own generals telephoned from the border to tell me that the Germans were bombing our towns, I dismissed it as the work of rogue generals and refused to accept that Hitler was invading our country. As for the purge, by eliminating the experienced military leadership in the Red Army, I prolonged the entire war and grotesquely magnified the bloodshed of my own people, sacrificing millions either to death or the concentration camps. “purge” is my favourite word, but really it was more of a decapitation. Glad I did it too, I managed to hold onto power for decades.

    Clearly preparations were being made – all the industry just didn’t move itself so quickly, and the T-34 was designed and sent into mass production for a reason.

    My efforts to expand the USSR into Western Europe following the expected downfall of what I hoped would be a short-lived Nazi regime were only partially realized, unfortunately due to the involvement of the Americans, curse them.

    After all, the USSR during the period of his leadership transformed itself in an idealistic crusade to create a better future for the whole of humankind. And it had huge successes.

    My pioneering application of communism at gunpoint, coupled with an authoritarian and oppressive regime unparalleled by anything else ever seen in the world, ensured that the USSR’s constituent countries are buggered for generations. My greatest legacy is undoubtedly the Chernobyl accident – a disaster which epitomized the state I constructed which lacked the resources, the technical wherewithal, and most of all the respect for the people living in a 100 mile radius, to build nuclear reactors which were safe. Oh yeah, I showed them how to royally fist-fuck a country. Only Kampuchea and the DPRK come close.

    These days I still enjoy fucking with the west through my proteges such as Gazprom. It’ll be a long time before they wipe my name from the face of the earth.

  • elfinto

    Lads, I’m confused. Is Jackie McDonald Stalin and Ihab Shoukri Trotsky? Or is it the other way round? I didn’t realised the UDA were such ideological beings.

  • Garibaldy

    Usurper of Stalin’s name,

    firstly, the moustache comment was not me. You’re falsifying history, something the real Uncle Joe would never do.

    Do we know whether there were any false reports of invasions before the actual one took place, both from agents in foreign countries or from the border? I suspect that there were, for years in advance. Thomas Bartlett has pointed out that in 1790s Ireland excellent information came into Dublin Castle but there were no means of properly processing it. Perhaps there was something similar at work here.

    As for the purges, some purging was clearly necessary, although these things develop a logic of themselves. On the army, we saw what a disaster the lack of a united military was against fascisim in Spain. The Soviet Union, unlike every other country that was invaded, withstood the Nazis, regardless of the winter before anyone mentions it. The Germans had already been held at the key points. Somebody was doing something right in the Red Army.

    Show me the evidence Stalin planned a military takeover of western before or after WWII. At the end of the war, with 10s of millions dead, and facing a nuclear armed America that was aggressively anti-Communist, any wonder he sought a buffer zone so any future war would not be fought on Soviet soil.

    As for the achievments of the 1920s and 1930s, it’s simply nonsense to say they were extorted from the population. Yes prisoners were forced to do labour (a bit like the US today) but the blindingly obvious fact for anyone who cares to think about it is that the transformation would have been impossible without the active support and participation of the huge majority of the population.

    On Chernobyl, so no nuclear accidents in Britain or the US then?

    Rather than look at the USSR comparatively, or to try to understand what happened there, just parrot crude propaganda instead.

  • Pete Baker

    fintan

    The more interesting analogy was made by Rory earlier – the My Darling Clementine one – although the casting doesn’t quite fit.. Jackie McDonald has been trying to persuade certain people that he’s really auditioning for the Wyatt Earp role… Henry Fonda he is not.

  • Garibaldy

    Dread,

    The original figure was 250,000, and it’s been steadily rising ever since. As you point out, we’ve now hit the jackpot of 100 million. The fact that this is a biologically impossible figure given Soviet population growth is neither here nor there. I agree though that purges and terror develop their own logic with lots of people suffering who shouldn’t.

    See my previous comment for my opinion on the Red Army’s response to the invasion. Same for the support of the Soviet people in the 1920s and 1930s. Over 10 million people died in WWI, there were the invasions and the civil war, and the total isolation by the other powers of the USSR.

    Finland declared war on the USSR in 1943 I thought. The liquidation of the Kulaks etc was basically the second round of the civil war, and I look at it in that light. I don’t accept that Stalin was mentally ill any more than I think Bush or Blair are.

    The USSR was extremely far from perfect. However, it was responsible for tremendous achievements, and the world as a whole was a better place with it than without it.

  • Garibaldy

    Meanwhile back at the Shoukris, any word on a UDA response to this statement? Did BBC news say that raids were taking place in north Belfast?

  • elfinto

    Garibaldy, you are a laugh. Stalinist condemns Provos with straight face!

  • Does this mean the McAleese funding package is in the bag for Jackie?!

  • Pete Baker

    Gonzo

    That would probably depend on whether Jackie McDonald secures the role, in the media, of Wyatt Earp [as played by Henry Ford] as he clearly wishes to.

    That, in turn, would require an adoption of a Hollywoood version of history.. and a deliberate ignorance of current events as detailed by the IMC – and by Vincent Kearney.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    When it’s time to go, it’s time to go and I think Andre and Ihab realise that. I’d be surprised if South-East Antrim do support them as the alleged North Belfast brigade staff members say they do. North Antrim/Londonderry, South, East and West Belfast want change so it’s inevitable as far as I’m concerned…hopefully the North Belfast rank and file find the courage to embrace rather than fight the inevitable.

  • Pete Baker

    I’m not at all sure that these searches are connected to this particular story, Garibaldy.. ANYway.. PSNI find weapons in city search

  • bertie

    Nope still can’t my wee head ’round this

    “The only other alternative is for law abiding UDA/UVF members ….”

  • tower

    Meanwhile, the uda foot soldiers continue to poison kids in North Antrim/Londonderry, South, East and West Belfast with drugs.

    Progress !!!

  • Comrade Stalin

    Do we know whether there were any false reports of invasions before the actual one took place, both from agents in foreign countries or from the border?

    I find your struggle to defend my record in the face of established historical fact to be admirable. Of those who were brave enough to question me (there weren’t many, I made sure of that) I dismissed every single report of the German invasion as a hoax and threatened to shoot those who kept repeating it. When I could delude myself no longer, I refused to accept that Hitler had ordered the invasion and clung to the belief that there was a rogue high up in the German leadership. I declared to Molotov that “we” had “fucked up” Lenin’s great legacy and resigned my leadership and went into hiding. Now, you may consider those to be the actions of a person who anticipated Hitler’s likely future moves, but I’m afraid you’ve misunderstood me.

    Perhaps there was something similar at work here.

    I particularly admire my supporters who rush to my defence using speculative words like “perhaps”, showing me how their faith in Marx is not daunted even by mere historical fact. But I’m afraid you’re wrong. I had agents infiltrating the Axis in Japan for years before the war, who even told me the launch date for Barbarossa. I rejected their intelligence reports and threatened them all with the death sentence.

    As for the purges, some purging was clearly necessary, although these things develop a logic of themselves. On the army, we saw what a disaster the lack of a united military was against fascisim in Spain.

    I’m glad you agree with me that ideologically-driven mass killings without trial or right of appeal are the correct way to instil discipline in the military. Perhaps you feel that this is a policy which may be usefully applied in contemporary politics. There is a downside of course, which is that the people who actually know how to run a war are all dead. I didn’t have a clue how to run a military campaign, and I overruled or shot anyone who tried to steer me in the right direction.

    Show me the evidence Stalin planned a military takeover of western before or after WWII.

    Warehouses full of tanks, and the secret clauses in our wonderful little pact with Ribbentrop.

    At the end of the war, with 10s of millions dead, and facing a nuclear armed America that was aggressively anti-Communist,

    Of course I didn’t anticipate nuclear weapons. Like everything else in the Soviet Union, we were completely incapable of innovation, and had to wait for the West to come up with the technology first, before we could steal it of course. I remember instructing my nuclear physicists that their equations were anti-democratic and not in line with Marxist thinking. They pointedly replied that without using the equations they could not build a bomb, so of course I waited until they’d finished building it before I had them shot.

    Is it any wonder that the world was anti-Communist given the oppression, famines, hunger and mass murder I inflicted on the Russian people ? People in communist regimes so badly wanted to escape, that their oppressive governments had to build walls around them and shoot anyone who tried to leave. Ah, those were the days.

    any wonder he sought a buffer zone so any future war would not be fought on Soviet soil.

    Quite right too. To hell with the people in the countries I subjugated against their will. I’m glad that, like me, you regard them as little more than a buffer whose rights could be crushed at will.

    As for the achievments of the 1920s and 1930s, it’s simply nonsense to say they were extorted from the population.

    I like to say that I made the Soviet people an offer they could not refuse.

    Yes prisoners were forced to do labour (a bit like the US today)

    I’m quite offended by your comparison with the USA. They indeed make their prisoners do labour there, but they also provide a jury trial and an appeals system. I, of course, dispensed with that nonsensical bureaucracy. Moreover, in the USA they make the rather foolish mistake of not jailing people who argue with their wisdom. If anyone criticized me in public I had the NKVD have a quiet word with them. It’s a great shame Nikita let them all out.

  • Comrade Stalin

    On Chernobyl, so no nuclear accidents in Britain or the US then?

    Certainly there have. But in the USSR we had a masterstroke. We knew about the operational risks of the reactors we built – but refused to spend the money to put extra containment around them in the event of an explosion. We knew about the particular risks of the RBMK reactor design – but we classed them as a military secret and did not tell the operators about them. And then, during the cleanup, we sent thousands of soldiers, civilians and workers to get rid of the mess, without telling them that we were sending them to their deaths. With Windscale the Brits were very silly, but at least their operators knew how to deal with the problem. At Three Mile Island the containment system stopped a major accident from occurring.

    Rather than look at the USSR comparatively, or to try to understand what happened there, just parrot crude propaganda instead.

    But you do not even inform yourself of the basic facts. Instead, your desire to apologize for my brutality is so great that you openly admit that you do not even study contemporary accounts of my life’s work.

  • bertie

    Given the circles that they move in and how they are feted, I am expecting them to be on I’m a celebrity get me out of here! Or is that just a handy phrase for dodging the criminal justice system?

  • Pete Baker

    Garibaldy and Comrade Stalin

    The topic of this post has been diverted far enough from the original intent.. I doubt it could go any further.

    If you wish to debate [or attempt to revise] the historical record of Stalin perhaps you [collectively] should look to starting a blog dedicated to that objective. This blog.. and this thread.. already have a topic to focus on.

  • Garibaldy

    Pete,

    Thanks for the info on those searches. I only half heard that bit of the news, that’s why I was asking.

    Deerpark Road is close to Westlands. Perhaps this was a move by the police to disarm one of the factions. Or perhaps, as you say, it had nothing to do with it.

    I saw Andre in McDonald’s in Newtownabbey once. Wasn’t wearing flash clothes nor driving a fancy car. A bad week at the bookies perhaps.

  • elfinto

    Pete,

    It’s all highly relevant. You see the MI5 officer who dreamed up the UDA was a KGB double agent!

    Coinicidentally the Workers Party was funded by Moscow. I wonder is there anyone on this thread who could lend me a few superdollars!?

  • red

    “Coinicidentally the Workers Party was funded by Moscow.”

    And is now funded by building rackets, extortion and drug dealing.

    Long live the Melting Pot, Cyprus Street & Beechill inn revolution.lol.

  • frank

    It will be interesting to see how the paramilitary bands associated!! to the uda will react during the orange order parade on Saturday.

    Or is it a uvf parade on Saturday ??

  • gg

    “Given the circles that they move in and how they are feted, I am expecting them to be on I’m a celebrity get me out of here!”

    How to have tea with the President in two easy steps:

    1. Go and murder lots of people. Drug-dealing and extortion optional but may help with your application.
    2. Half-heartedly stop said murdering.

    Note that only sectarian murder will do. Dr Crippen/Jack the Ripper-style murderers need not apply.

  • andy

    Pete B
    I appreciate your point – but do you not find these spin-off debates pretty interesting?
    I would agree if it was just personal abuse (which can happen) but I have found the interjections here pretty stimulating.

    One last thing (err, sorry Pete) – Garibaldy & Rory – see if you can find a copy of the Great Game by Leopod Trepper. He ran the Red Orchestra Soviet Spy network during WWII inside Nazi Germany and other occupied countries.

    A committed communist (no western lackey), he explains in intricate detail what a bloodthirsty incompetent Stalin was.

    On the Shoukris – I think Garibaldy was right – there is unlikely to be any long-lasting feud as two individuals, even with some local backing, can’t really compete with the whole UDA organisation. Something akin to the Adair situation will happen.

  • elfinto

    As racism is topical just now (see thread on racism in NI), I can’t help wondering have the Shoukris considered taking a case against the UDA for racial disrimination.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Hey, Pete, is was as much me as Garibaldy and CS… mayhaps more. Mea Culpa.

    Now, as for the Shoukri bros.

    andy: “On the Shoukris – I think Garibaldy was right – there is unlikely to be any long-lasting feud as two individuals, even with some local backing, can’t really compete with the whole UDA organisation. Something akin to the Adair situation will happen. ”

    So what does this mean, andy — there will only a couple shootings and “trailer trash” -esque pictures this summer and not an all out fraticidal war between the various “commands” of the UDA? Like that’s a “good” thing?

  • andy

    DC
    to answer your questions succinctly:
    yes (or alternatively speaking nothing will happen)
    &
    relatively speaking, yes