A Republican take on ‘Martin Ingram’ and his allegations

Despite efforts by some to portray a differing picture, republicans have remained utterly bemused by the fantastic allegations made by the British intelligence officer, ‘Martin Ingram’, about Martin McGuinness. Both Laurence McKeown and Jude Collins dismiss the story in their weeky pieces.

  • Turbo Paul

    If the allegations against MmG are true or allowed to distract Republicans from the real issue of working for a final settlement, where does that leave us with regards the November 06
    deadline and how best can a deal be reached that see’s power devolved to the democratically elected officials in the Northern part of Ireland???

    The current leadership’s of DUP and Sinn Fein have been living in the viper pit for so long they are incapable of reaching a final settlement.

    As with all wars, the first casualty is the Truth.

    Does anyone think, as I do, the current leadership of Sinn Fein, DUP, Bertie Ahearn, Tony Blair, Bush, Chirac and co look stale, tired, worn out, yesterday’s men, or as Robin Day put it: “Here today, gone tommorrow politicians”???????
    ?????????????

    Brits Biggest Blunder!!!

    The biggest mis-calculation by the Brits was back in 1998 when “Curly bonce” Johnathon Powell advised Tony Blair that it:

    “Would be better if confronted by an IRA soldier, a carton of smuggled cigs was pulled out of his bag rather than an AK47”

    The Brits thought allowing Republicans, and to a much lesser extent, Loyalists, to smuggle was “Small beer” and worth turning a blind eye to.

    However, the Republicans were so successful that today they have a global asset portfolio worth nearly $1 billion, thats right $1 billion.

    This is the real reason why there is a concerted effort to dis-credit Sinn Fein from all sides.

    To counter this Sinn Fein will, I hope, have their own version of “The Night of the Long Knives” and emerge with a new leadership. Connor Murphy at the helm.

    Historicaly the issue of who did what, and to who is valid, but perhaps we should be talking of how to reach a deal by November, or not, if no-deal is the aspiration.

    Once all the boxes have been ticked by Republicans, the DUP will be left refusing to share power because “Gerry Adams/Martin McGuinness have not brushed their hair” The Unionist argument becomes more untenable as the lack of devolved power lingers on.

    Public opinion will then turn against the DUP, leaving them on the station platform.

    The U.S. Britain, and Irish governments will forge closer links between the Irish Republic and Britain, therby devolving more and more power to the South.

    The Dup will be responsible for allowing a long game united Ireland by proxy.

    The DUP will end up like the Palestinians, who:
    “Never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity”

    The nature of Irish politics in the North means everyone is deemed guilty until proved innocent.

    It is on this premise MI has based his allegations.

    It is the reaction of Republicans that will determine whether MmG falls on his sword.

  • Busty Brenda

    There is a debate on radio free eirean NOW which includes martin ingram.

  • Busty Brenda

    Eamonn McCann is also on.

  • Chris Donnelly

    Brilliant point by McCann:

    If McGuinness was an agent, then surely British intelligence must have been privy to the assassination attempt on Thatcher and the entire British government in Brighton?

    ‘Martin Ingram’now saying McGuinness a paid agent from early 70s, presumably from civil rights era and through Bloody Sunday period.

    I’d say that, after these comments and this interview Brenda, he’s even less credible than before….

  • Busty Brenda

    Maybe…. But my suspicions are mmcg’s position will become untenable. It will be unworkable for him.

    McCann in some places made MI’s case for him, ie franko haggerty. We have yet to see are the PIRA having an internal investigation, is it the third one, and will the outcome be made public or will these suspicions be allowed to fester?

    This is a disaster for mcguinness. I met him a few times, a very nice guy, but that won’t save his reputation, which at the minutes is slowly going down hill.

    Don’t like this at all. Deeply disturbing.

  • elfinto

    Here we go again around the mulberry bush. Believe British spook smears if you like Brenda. You do yourself no favours. The Brits could smear anyone if they tried hard enough. Geddit?

  • Busty Brenda

    LOL elfinto, I get it, do you? Leaving this case open rather than closed is not good for republicans. that is my honest opinion.

  • elfinto

    As I put it to you on another thread, Brenda: how do you prove that you’re not a tout? Apparently (allegedly) stiffing loads of Brits isn’t enough these days. It’s a joke. If you want to believe MI enough you will believe him. Just remember that he is running a British spook psychological operation aimed at demoralsing and discrediting Irish republicans.

  • Busty Brenda

    LOL as I said to you on the other thread, if you listened to the interview you will have heard mccann say a mountain of proof is needed to prove he is a tout, but the evidence is needed to prove he is no tout, since the situation has developed publicly.

    You will have heard MI say he is working with a consortium of journalist well lets see if they have any hard evidence. No hard evidence no case IMO.

    You will also have heard that the dup have documents in their possession. Lets see what they are.

    You will also have heard there is supposedly an internal investigation going on in PIRA. And that it is the third one. The outcome needs to be known.

    When all the evidence is on the table then the public can judge whether there is hard evidence or not.

    I believe it to be in the interests of republicanism, all republicanism, for this to be stamped out, obliterated by showing this to be as you say a psy op. It could go the other way.

    Hopefully the TRUTH will out.

    gotta go, as I said going out.

    BYE

  • Turbo Paul

    If the mainstream media run with this story and reverse the emphasis so Martin McGuinness is deemed guilty until proved innocent, it will be at this point when McG’s fate will be sealed. The Cardinal sin for any politician is to become the story.

    If this is left unresolved then Republicans have to beg the question:”Can one personality overshadow the promotion of the Republican message”

    Martin Ingram has two bites at the Cherry, first, if he can prove the allegations, second, if he can create an atmosphere of doubt that see’s McG’s position untenable.

    McG can only wait to see if the mainstream media have the appitite for this story, or see if KF takes centre stage in the near future and feels the venom of the Irish political pendulum of vitrol.

  • elfinto

    Brenda,

    Have you heard this ‘third enquiry line’ from anyone other than MI? Let’s suppose, for the sake of argument, that he is right about it. Would you still believe his nonsense about not working for the Spook Services any more?

    I’m greed about the need for the RM to make a definitive statement on the Scap affair as there is clear evidence of his treason. Trying to sweep the issue under the carpet is doing irreprarable damage. McGuiness however, has no case to answer.

  • ingram

    Chris,

    Quote” Both Laurence McKeown and Jude Collins dismiss the story in their weeky pieces.

    LOL. They both dismissed the Scap story as did Martin McGUINNESS, Gerry Adams, Gerry Kelly, Danny Morrison ( Although I have copies of his personal e mails when he helped the book Stake Knife and knew the Id of Freddy. Do we not remember his famous piece in the Guardian ? Penned within days of Freddies stunt, and public defence by the entire Sinn Fein leadership.

    Now, contrast with this record.

    1. 1999. Adams attack frustrated. Govt confirm true in court papers.
    2. Arested for breach of official secrets act. Fight case and wins.
    3. Publishes first details of Loyalists killers of Finucane and the role RUC played and recovered substantial documents that lay hidden for the past two Stevens inquiries. Met with and helped Peter Madden and the Finucane legal fight.
    ( DUP & OTHERS lord Kilcloney etc said this link to the old RUC was rubbish. Stayed the course and proved it.
    4. Sir John Stevens went on the record to confirm my information about how his offices were burned down wasaccurate. Please see Stevens report.
    5 . Told the Irish News about the systematic and institutional collusion between security forces and the Loyalists death gangs. Sir John Steven confirms this in his last report.
    6. Reveal to the family of the Notorantonios how their loved ( Pensioner) one was butchered in his bed. The story was initially denied although I provided the family with the material to ask the now chief constable and he confirmed the story and the existance for the very first time of the Agent Stake Knife in the (Nelson)plan to murder their loved one. ( There is more to this but Eh lets be brief)

    7. Informed the world about Freddy Scappaticci and his role for over 21/2 decades as the nuttung squad executioner. Well do we all remember the out cry then. “Impossible” Lies all part of a securocrat conspiracy” shall I go on mate ?

    my record against Martins ?

    As Eamon McCann said on the Radio the Martin McGuinness he thought he knew would never have recognised partition, a role within a British administration and advocating to leading Republicans ” Put yourself before the British courts lads”

    And finally accepting anything that did not lead to a United Ireland.

    I am willing to debate this live with Martin McGuinness with NO pre conditions, all cards on the table.

    Now I cannot be more fair now can I ?

    My record against his.

    Martin Ingram.

  • elfinto

    TP,

    If the mainstream media run with this story and reverse the emphasis so Martin McGuinness is deemed guilty until proved innocent, it will be at this point when McG’s fate will be sealed.

    Are you serious mate? McGuiness is guilty as far as the mainstream media is concerned. Guilty of being an Irish republican. Why would he get a fair hearing off the media? MI has already stated that he has got a posse of hacks on the case. What matters is what republican activists and republican voters believe. Many are disillusioned due to the Scap business which has yet to be addressed.

  • Turbo Paul

    What matters is what republican activists and republican voters believe. Many are disillusioned due to the Scap business which has yet to be addressed.

    Elfinto, do you think it is time for wholesale changes at the top in order to preserve the Republican agenda ?????????

  • guide

    Sure at least your making a few quid, marty.

    Any truth in the rumour from an ‘unnamed security source’ that you have been approached about appearing in the next series of celebrity big brother ?

  • elfinto

    An impressive cover story Martin!

    It’s a great pity (from your perspective) that we can’t read 99% of the Stephen’s report or we might be more inclined to believe you. Maybe you could make a copy available.

    As for your record vis a vis MMcG:
    You are a self-confessed imperialist spook
    MMcG is (allegedly) a leading memeber of the (former) resistance movement.

    You admit that you have no hard evidence against him (other than a personal hunch and a dodgy dossier/transcript).

  • elfinto

    TP,

    I think the RM should address the Scap issue.

    Inevitably there will be changes in the republican leadership at some point in the future but this should not be dictated by allegedly former British security agents. Any republican who was involved in the armed struggle is vulnerable to this type of innuendo so changing the leadership is not a panacea. As for having a leadership which was not involved in the armed struggle, well unfortunately Ireland is not yet at that point.

  • Turbo Paul

    I accept your argument, but at the very least there was incompetence by the leadership that allowed Scap, Dennis Donaldson.

    If for no other reason then lack of due care, the current leadership leave allot to be desired.

    A Scap investigation at the very least will be a bitter pill to swallow for the rank and file and I believe this alone could undermine the RM and play into the hands of those who fear Sinn Fein achieving its natural political potential.

    I would like to see some mainstream media outlet broadcast allegations about Martin McGuinness and in turn Martin McGuinness sue’s for libel, that’s of course presuming he is completely innocent of collusion.

    The change in leadership of Sinn Fein would steal a march on its rivals and I believe this regardless of the current allegations.

    What next, Gerry Adams has been a Brit agent who the Brits saved from assassination twice in 80’s????
    Pat Doherty has been a Brit agent.
    We no doubt will see allegations against these men in the run up to November.

    There are many reasons other than Brit propoganda why a debate on replacing the current Republican leadership should take place.

    A positive thing for Republicans is the oposition has been reduced to personal attacks because they have been defeated by Sinn Fein’s policies regarding equlity and fairness.

    The only way left to stop the Republican agenda is to personalise the debate and deflect from ehgaging in the positive policies being promoted by Sinn Fein.

  • Betty Boo

    Why does Jack call himself Martin? After “the famous Martin McGuinness”?

    http://cryptome.org/ingram-sunday.htm
    Monday 12th May 2003/16/ line 4

  • elfinto

    TP,

    It’s not libel to be accused of working in the interests of the state. But it is libel to be accused of being a ‘terrorist’ And it’s not libel if somebody accuses you of being a terrorist and you are in the IRA (as Slab Murphy found out).

  • 1,000,000,000%

    I am sorry but that article by McKeown is the biggest load of ”hooey” I have read in a long time. Bad manners is worse than torture, aye right. God help us.

  • Turbo Paul

    I agree, but the point I wanted to make was “There needs to be closure” on this and other allegations otherwise the Republican message will be lost in the fog of personal attacks.

    Speaking of Slab, I wrote an essay during my M.A. about the comparisons between Nelson Mandela and Slab Murphy.

    I concluded that the definition of a complete Freedom Fighter is to act like Slab Murphy during the war and act like Nelson Mandela after the war.

    When the Republican Movement was on its knees and took a “nine count” it Was Slab Murphy that picked the RM up.

    What if Mandela was not jailed in 62, would he, upon reflection, and given his armed struggle against aparthid, aspired to have a record such as Slab’s??????

  • Chris Donnelly

    ‘Martin’

    Anyone who reads your decidedly dodgy offerings on this site, or listens to your somewhat ad-hoc mumblings on Radio Free Eireann, can form no other impression than one of incredulity that you were, in your own words, a senior British handler during the conflict.

    Incidentally, I was amused at the way you studiously avoided replying to McCann’s assertion that, if McGuinness was a British agent from the early 1970s, and if he was a leading republican by the 1980s, then surely British intelligence must have known about the Brighton bomb. So, Marty boy, was the Brighton bomb a coup attempt by MI5, given that they obviously allowed the entire government to be at the mercy of an IRA unit????

    I’m going to put to you what most people with a bit of sense believe: you are presently in the employ of British intelligence, tasked with buying time for political unionism by attempting to mischief-make within republicanism (though I doubt they would even bother explaining your role in the grander scheme.)

    I can just see the meeting at Spook HQ when they played ‘ini-mini-miny-mo’ and came up with Martin McGuinness’ name from the list of leading republicans.

    The mistake this time was in overplaying their
    (and your)semi-concealed hand. Various names have been thrown before a compliant media in the months since Dennis Donaldson, and all fell by the wayside after being proven to be rubbish.

    I’ve no doubt there will be a concerted effort by the cabal of republican-baiters in the media to give legs to your story- indeed, old reliables like Mr. Cusack and good ol’ Dudley Edwards herself have weighed in to provide you with some semblance of cover.

    But, in the end, you will be exposed as a fraud.

  • qubol

    Correct me if I’m wrong here but ‘MI’ was only a corporal, a man a few ranks above private – would he really be privy to highly secretive information revealing the supposed double dealing of Martin McGuinness? Highly, highly unlikely
    In addition you would think that if what he says is true the brits would be keen to keep a lid on it the whole story; from past experience they would hardly think twice about making ‘MI’ shut up for good, would they?
    ‘MIs’ trick is to combine fantasy with some old history, throw in some names, some places here and there – sound authoritative and hopefully just a enough people will get pulled in by it all.
    As Chris just said, you overplayed your hand this time. I mean, if you were really credible you might have done better than Jim McDowell and the Sunday World.

  • friendlyCreggan

    “would he really be privy to highly secretive information revealing the supposed double dealing of Martin McGuinness? Highly, highly unlikely”- qubol

    He wouldn’t but he claims that he had the information on the supposed ‘document’ checked by other sources and the J118 etc was confirmed to him

    Also, highly highly unlikely

    As I’ve said already, I reckon that ‘Ingram’ is depending so much on the likes of ‘Sunday World’ for his ‘revelations’- I wonder why nobody else will touch his stories?

    Why is this ‘revelation’ only being brought out now?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Elfinto,Chris Donnelly.

    On the other discussion on this subject, and after checking out the link to MI’S site

    http://martiningram.blogspot.com

    provided by FriendlyCreggan. I came to the conclusion that this was indeed a kind of psyche ops, possibly to undermine Nationalists.

    Some may think it far fetched, but consider this, on the other discussion, Ingram’s ramblings looked very much like considered impersonal statements of the type put together by a team. Contrast this with the palsy type patter above. Was one of the team off sick this evening?, or a different approach perhaps?

  • Henry94

    From The Sunday Times

    Security experts discredit claim that McGuinness was M16 spy

    “Ingram believes it is genuine, but last night Fulton said he knew nothing about it and had no idea whether it was authentic or not.”

    “I am satisfied by the authenticity of this source, who has provided useful information in the past,” Ingram added. He gave the officer’s name to The Sunday Times for purposes of authentication. He had been told the officer could not be contacted because he was on holiday abroad.

    Inquiries have confirmed that no detective using the name mentioned by Ingram is serving with Special Branch or CID. Neither is this person on the electoral register nor in the phone book. A uniformed constable with a similar name is serving in Northern Ireland but he said he knew nothing of Fulton, Ingram or MI6.”

    “The name was not included on a list of RUC “handlers” that Fulton had previously given to The Sunday Times. This indicates the name, like the document, is a fabrication.”

  • Chris Donnelly

    Prince Eoghan

    You’re right. Notice the way ‘Ingram’ on the blog writes without the poor grammar, spelling and vocabulary that typifies his contributions to this site….

  • Chris Donnelly

    ….Almost as if it were a different person…

  • friendlyCreggan

    Sorry ‘Martin’
    I am now nearly finished listening to the ‘Radio Free Eireann’ interview and whatever you thought that you may have gained from this LIVE interview, you were badly advised 🙂

    For those that want to hear this go to:

    http://martiningram.blogspot.com/

    then: http://archive.wbai.org/pls.php?mp3fil=6172

    and if it downloads, go 29 minutes and 39 seconds forward

  • elfinto

    As a result of listening to RFE I have discovered MI’s true identity. It is none other than Orville the Duck!

    Oh, I wish I could fly right up to the sky but I can’t.

  • I listened to the Ingram/McCann programme. Forgetting that McCann mentioned Bombay St (the beginning), and taking into account the mentions of Ed Moloney etc, my take is as follows: Moloney was right; the British manipulated the IRA’s leadership to bring us Sunningdale for Slow Learners. I do not think Ingram discredited himself. SFIRA have been pushed down the same road as SFWP and McCann seems very much to accept this track. They also agree the IRA and others used dumbos like Frank Hegarty. But hey that’s politics. The IRA was, ultimately, an MI5 counter gang.

  • heck

    I still think it is the intelligence services going for a triple, discredit ingram, sow dissent in the republican ranks and set MMcG up for murder.

    What is more interesting is the reaction of the law and order unionists who believe the allegation about McG but ignore the rest of it.

  • McGrath

    Logic comes into play here:

    Consider this, if MM had been compromised / influenced as a tout by the British way back in 1970 or when ever, what would his risks have been?

    1. Imprisonment.. that would have only strengthened his position.

    2. Death/Ridicule..that would have happened already.

    His position within the ranks was so strong way back then that any attempt to expose him as a tout would have been recognized as dis-information.

    This current fuss is simply a replay of the original tout card, but this time the play is made hoping that MM’s position isn’t as strong and at a time time when it may stick.

    Way back, hundreds of years ago, the commanders of each side of a battle would ride across the battlefield and meet in the middle to discuss terms in an effort to avoid bloodshed (or financial loss or status, what ever way you want to think of it).

    Such negotions where not collusion or ulterior, rather they were just the right people in the right place at the right time who could make expedient decisions.

    Just think, if those negotiations were not successful and the commanders of one side were allowed to ride to the other side of the battlefield to tell the foot soldiers their version of the negotiations. What would they tell the foot soldiers? They would tell them anything to strengthen their position, they would tell them anything that would help them win or save their necks.

    The same thing is happening here, except they don’t need to ride to the other side of the battle field, not when they have Martin Ingram to spread their version on a web log.

    Logic applies to Martin Ingram too:

    If MI was truly as involved / informed as he claims, then he cannot possibly have performed his function without having blood on his hands too. Disclosure / discussion of such information will simply build his own gallows. No person is that stupid or sincere. More likely is the case we have an organisation here, spreading dis-information, making us second guess ourselves (both sides), and who benefits from that?

  • Ken A. Biss, Finland

    I love conspiracy theories. The more incredible the better! This one is way up there with the National Enquirer report that Elvis is alive and well and living in a secret bunker under the White House. Next we’ll be hearing that Eoghan Harris and Ruth Diddly-Edwards have been key IRA spies for decades, with Ian Paisley as the secret mastermind behind the whole thing – the Lord works in mysterious ways. That all for now – have to get back to finishingn an article in which I expose the President of Finland as a key Al-Quaeda operative and mastermind.

  • Rubicon

    I wonder – does Big Ian believe this nonsense?

    Surely, he’ll not mind sharing the First Minister’s Office with such a long-standing “employee” of the British government? 😉

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    When you get the usual cabal of journoes write of dissension in ‘republican ranks’ and of ‘ex republican sources’ being disquiet and ‘asking questions’ then you know it is a load of old nonsense.

    When they are asked for specifics they are as usual found wanting.

    As for Ingram, he gambled badly in the aftermnath of Donaldson and expected that a few names would emerge as they did after Scap. Nothing happened and he was forced to try the Mc Guinness stunt in order to remain relevant and help with the book.

    The fact that the Sunday World was the only paper prepared to run with the story is an indictment of the credibility of both the story and the source.

  • elfinto

    MI has made his case against MMcG with a very weak piece of ‘evidence’ – an extemely dodgy document. Had he anything stronger to make his case with, he would have deployed it.

    Listening to the interview on RFE however MI bases his case on circumstanial evidence – stuff which is already in the public domain – much of it covered by Ed Moloney and Liam Clarke in their books. He argues that luck and incompetence equals treachery.

    Raising such questions about SF’s chief negociator in the run up to a crucial negociations is the sure sign of a spook dirty tricks operation. The war may be over for the Provos but it still continues in some sections of the British Security Agencies.

  • not a Fisherman

    Today’s Sunday World did not look good for McGuinness, and I am not talking about the Ingram piece. This isn’t over yet.

  • elfinto

    Is that you Team Marty?

  • Busty Brenda

    elfinto, did u see the sunday world. It claims there is another source, did you see mcguinness on tv, the politics show, if not you can see it on line?
    He looked a little panicky to me.

  • elfinto

    Brenda,

    The FRU slogan is fishers of men (a bit sexist!). The previous poster, Not a Fisherman, gave the e-mail address reel@reel.com. They are reeling you in.

    And, no. I do NOT buy the Sunday World. I will read the relevant article with great scepticism when it appears on NUZHOUND . I would not blame McGuinness for being agitated. He is being targeted by a relatively sophisticated black propaganda operation.

    Will you be rushing out to buy ‘Kevin Fulton’s’ book when it appears? Apparently he needs a bit of cash.

  • elfinto

    How many posters on this site are batting for Team Marty?

  • Rubicon

    And which Marty would that be elfinto?

  • Busty Brenda

    elfinto,

    why are you getting so worked up? LOL. SF/ MMcG etc,you should have confidence and let them fight their own battles. Let MI fight his battle. Between the two hopefully the truth will come out. this hasn’t even been reported by rte.

    as for fultons book, i didn’t know he wrote one, I haven’t seen it, but then I am not looking for it. Will you lend me your copy?

  • elfinto

    It’s interesting how these information wars are now being fought in the ‘blogosphere'(first time I’ve ever used that word). It’s an ideal medium for disseminating misinformation and innuendo anonymously.

    So Brenda,

    Are you are the cheerleader on Team Marty Ingram?

  • Not a fisherman

    ‘Fisherman’ is supposed to be McGuinness’s code name. The email is a play on the words. Fishing reel and reeling from the allegations not reeling anyone in. The Sunday World article introduced new sources – significantly not Ingram – and if true will make things harder for McGuinness. If true that is. Heard things did not go well for McGuinness in Beechmount earlier. Either way he is in a weak spot.

  • Busty Brenda

    elfinto.

    LOL I’m just a citizen reading the papers. I will bide my time. I have no stakes in this, except to say I feel it is better for republicanism as a whole to have these allegations quashed rather than buried. Obviously allegations in the past have been buried and have now resurfaced, so better to quash them. How do they do that? Dunno. That is a problem for SF and personally for McGuinness.

    The evidence is flimsy so far. But it could gather momentum, or hard evidence could emerge. So I will bat for no team, and be a spectator.

    Who do I want to win? Neither marty. The truth, and hopefully republicanism as a whole.

  • elfinto

    LOL, Martin Ingram claims to want what’s best for republicanism too. You’ve got a lot in common.

    Some things change. Others remain the same. In the old days the Brits would write letters to the newspapers pretending to be Catholic Mothers of 10. With the advent of blogging they just go onto to Slugger and make up a name.

    Isn’t that right, fisherman?

  • Blanke Space

    I see Ingram has slapped Liam Clarke like he has never been slapped before, he has now raised a question mark over Clark.

    http://www.martiningram.blogspot.com

  • Prince Eoghan

    Elfinto.

    I have read today’s SHOCK REVELATIONS, it consisted of coward Stone claiming the Brits protected MMc, because he never showed up when he wanted to shoot him. And more promises of well SHOCK REVELATIONS.

    I am now officially bored, the game is up, it was put up or shut up, shite or get aff the pan(oh busty wan) and I can’t be bothered hanging around waiting for Marty and his team of spooks/RUC?PSNI whoever to shite.

    The dangerous thing is that there was heavy shit stirring alleging this IRA man’s granny and that IRA man’s third cousins butlers boyfriend was a tout. Clear incitement to rouse suspicion, that I hope people have the sense to see for what it is. A FAILED PSYCH OP

    GO ON HOME!!!!!!!!!!!

  • The second source in the Sunday World makes the whole thing even less plausible, if anything:

    He said the self-confessed former Second OC of the Derry Brigade of the IRA worked to an intelligence unit known as ‘Box 500.’ That unit covered MI5, MI6 and the British Army’s undercover Force Research Unit.

    It’s one thing to claim on the basis of the Derry back-channel that McGuinness could have been considered an MI6 agent of influence, (the allegation that was considered by Moloney and Clarke as was pointed out above). It’s another to suggest that he was being run from the next desk to the FRU. I wonder how many MI6 agent-handlers Mr Ingram has come across?

  • elfinto

    The Sunday Spook is a disgrace. You’d think they’d have learned their lesson after Denis Donaldson was killed but no. Now they want to set McGuiness up for assassination.

    It’s ironic to see spook journalist Ingram having a go at journalist to the spooks Liam Clarke. At least Clarke has the temerity to write under his own name.

  • Prince Eoghan

    As I have said previously Tom, any tom dick or bigot PSNI man has access to intelligence files. From these could be cobbled together the crap on display. Sure how else could they pass info on to their pals in the Unionist death squads otherwise.

  • Busty Brenda

    I think yuo guys have a take on this that is different to SF. Didn’t any of you see martin mcguinness on the politics show. He said this was the DUP old RUC SB AND British Intelligence, done because he was nominated for deputy first minister.

    If this is the case put the pressure on the DUP to reveal their source show what they have, and if necessary, if this is all crap, then prosecute all those involved inclucding MI.

    Don’t you people trust mcguinness and what he says?

  • elfinto

    Do we believe that Busty Brenda is a republican?

    No.

  • Busty Brenda

    do I care? NO LOL

  • abucs

    no.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Oh busty one.

    He said this was the DUP old RUC SB AND British Intelligence, done because he was nominated for deputy first minister.

    I believe that I may have covered this, without mentioning the dep min bit

  • Busty Brenda

    Thanks EUNUCH,

    BUT elfinto needs to have things repeated. Spoon fed like LOL

    but if he wants to watch the politics show its on line,

    ps let him find his own link hehehe

  • Prince Eoghan

    Oh busty one.

    Enough with the eunuch, It cut’s me up.

    Elfinto cracked this first I believe, no spoon feeding needed there.

    Don’t you two get into bickering.

  • Rubicon

    So far nothing has emerged to prove Ingram’s claim – just a lot of conspiracy theorists speculation. Personally, failing the presentation of evidence, I find common sense a useful tool.

    If McGuinness was informing then how was it that the British knew so little about matters that would have undoubtedly been on “the agenda” for Army Council meetings? McCann’s point about the Brighton bombing being an apt example – but there are plenty of others.

    A highly placed informer like McGuinness not being able to give warning about a plot to blow up the entire UK cabinet would have led to his “outing” almost immediately. If there’s a shred of truth in this allegation of Ingram’s then the failure of military intelligence dwarfs that of Blair’s Iraq adventure.

    Or … Are we now to believe that McGuinness wasn’t on the Army Council?

    Or … The Army Council wouldn’t have known about Brighton (Canary Wharf, Gadaffi’s ‘gifts’ etc etc)?

    If MMcG was an informer then Ingram and co. need to explain a lot; not least their complicancy in murder and their complete ineffectiveness.

    Given this, it really is a bit rich hearing the likes of Ingram point to the Derry brigade’s inefficiency.

    I’m no fan of MMcG’s but these allegations simply do not make sense – no matter what details are chosen to cast doubt on MMcG.

  • Busty Brenda

    Eunuch, old busty will do what she is told, I shall sit up and take note of each syllable of the elfs, and bat for the elf’s team. I know how you two have bonded.

    Rubicon, agreed, unless something concrete emerges and there has been plenty of time now for something to emerge, I think the show is almost over.

    LOL submit the word you see below elf32 LOL

  • It appears that Liam Clarke has heard from the second source (perhaps the real source):

    A retired RUC special branch officer believes McGuinness was the MI5 agent code-named “Fisherman”, though others maintain that this agent may have been a person close to McGuinness.

  • TL

    Well if there is a transcript there is a tape…lets hear it then, it will make things so simple. Otherwise it is too much smoke not enough fire.

  • Rubicon

    Marty, a retired RUC Special Branch Officer just spent a weekend in London and whilst on a pub crawl found himself in Fleet Street.

    As often happen, Marty reflects on the ould country.

    The barman nods sympathetically, he’s heard it all before. It’s late and he reaches for the glass in front of Marty.

    “Would you leave me Guinness alone! I’m nee done yit – dinna get sae close to me Guinness – way wit ye and pull me another ya cod ya!”

    Suitably rebuked the barman pulls another pint for Marty and calls last orders when he notices Liam quietly writing in booth.

    “Liam!” he shouts, “will you be wanting a Guinness like Marty?”

    From such acorns ….

  • Prince Eoghan

    Grow bullshit.

    Brilliant story, not up to Ingram and his team’s quality, but you don’t have 6 art history degrees’ behind your story telling.

  • Rubicon

    Harsh criticism Prince! What I loose in artistic merit I gain in not boring the tits off you!

    Give me the column inches of Mr. Ingram and I’ll give you a story your kids will tell your grand-children!

    I was a past expert in spook stories – but that was in the days when spooks were ghosts and before I learned that scaring the kids kept me up more than them 😉

  • Prince Eoghan

    Rubicon.

    You made me chuckle, the object of my affections were directed at Marty I. and his team of failed spooks/Rodneys with a plethora of art history degrees’ behind them.

    You done well considering you are on your own

  • Rubicon

    Thanks Prince – glad this nonsense has caused a chuckle and you’re right – I’m no fiction writer!

    Until evidence emerges I think this story needs thought of as an interesting film-script that might even win a Cannes award – or at least a comedy award of some description. It’s not easy know where to classify Irish history film scripts.

    This is one “Paddy” not biting the bait. Ireland’s history is horrific enough without this. London may still think we’re spooked by “goblins, leprechauns and banshees” but the rest of us are spooked enough with reality!

  • Prince Eoghan

    Ultimately they just need to GO ON HOME.

    I am listening to this;

    http://geocities.com/markoneillrebpage3/index.htm

    Quite good to two finger type away to, especially with a 2yr old wean hanging off my neck.

    Enjoy

  • cezer

    The Sunday world have promised more ‘exclusives’ in the coming weeks

    Martin McGuinness ate my hampster

    Martin McGuinness to enter Big Brother house

    Martin McGuinness unmasked as Paul Berry’s masseur

    Paul McCartney blames McGuinness for marriage break up.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Now that was a bellylaugh.

    How are you getting on after your eviction last night, geezer.

  • Roisin

    “I’m no fan of MMcG’s but these allegations simply do not make sense – no matter what details are chosen to cast doubt on MMcG.”

    They don’t make sense, and what’s more, they aren’t new. They were being touted on the Debate Central bulletin board five years ago, by some pop in and out poster, claiming that McG’s wife (then girlfriend) was the only one of a bombing team to get off, and that this was ‘evidence’ that McG was an agent. Certainly they’re interesting, and certainly there’s a curiosity factor surrounding them. But they seem like little picture stuff, and when questioned seem superficial. Casting doubt, as you said.

    For example, if we suppose what Ingram says is true; that Hegarty was an agent run by Ingram, why would the alleged super-agent McGuinness (who Ingram alleges had not only Hegarty promoted, but Scap promoted as well) go out of his way to lure Hegarty back in order to kill him.

    If McGuinness is this super-agent working away for years to undermine republicanism, why his outrage at Denis Bradley in the lead up to the ceasefire?

    Makes no sense. Smoke and mirrors, spooks games. The age old question: Cui bono?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Roisin.

    Today was meant to be D-Day. The balloon stayed down. Hence we are ripping the piss.

  • Roisin

    LOL.

    D-Day? Donegal Day?

  • Prince Eoghan

    That was unintentional, frig I’m going there next week, hope Ingram and his team don’t set me up.

  • Roisin

    Well I hope you have nice weather. Donegal is always beautiful, but it’s always too cold and soggy for my liking. Don’t think I’ve ever been there when the sun shone.

  • m

    I see ‘Ingram’, in his response to Clarke, is already admitting and recounting how he will lie about his claims when asked.

    Weird how the FRU agent says he did this because Liam Clarke is too close to the PSNI.

    ‘Knowing that Mr Clarke has extensive links with the PSNI and others I took the difficult decision to feed him a line. This in the trade is common to lay a false scent. I told him a bogus story to frustrate his efforts in tracking down these Sources just like he would never reveal his sources to me.’ – ‘Martin Ingram’

    So what are the false trails and what’s the truth? Seems according to ‘Martin Ingram’ himself we can’t trust him to tell the truth.

  • Martin Ingram and Jack Grantham and British Imperialism in Ireland.or more news of Martin Ingram and Jack Grantham go to

    http://jackgrantham.blogspot.com/

  • P O’Neil

    Jack / Martin,

    Wise move getting a slot on infowars.com – Alex boasts more than 8 million hits a day. Have you, or will you take part in his radio show? David Shayler appears to be a bit of a regular, may be the two of you could double team or something.

  • Martin Ingram aka Ian Hurst is a liar

    The person who calls himself Martin ingram but is in fact ex Int Corps SSgt Ian Hurst (known as rocky) is a liar of the highest order. His book STEAKNIFE is almost complete fiction, as are his assertions that Martin McGUINNESS was an agent of the state. He is dementedly lying completely about his past service in FRU. He only ever served in sleepy backwaters of the Province and never came face to face with anyone except low level eyes and ears agents. He never ran STEAKNIFE or even met him. In short, his book is a complete fabrication based on god knows what. He endangers the lives of serving and former soldiers as well as civillians with his ridiculous fairy tales. Hopefull he will appear in court at some of the current inquiries and investigations so he can be shown to be the liar he really is.

  • Martin Ingram aka Ian Hurst is a liar

    The person who calls himself Martin ingram but is in fact ex Int Corps SSgt Ian Hurst (known as rocky) is a liar of the highest order. His book STEAKNIFE is almost complete fiction, as are his assertions that Martin McGUINNESS was an agent of the state. He is dementedly lying completely about his past service in FRU. He only ever served in sleepy backwaters of the Province and never came face to face with anyone except low level eyes and ears agents. He never ran STEAKNIFE or even met him. In short, his book is a complete fabrication based on god knows what. He endangers the lives of serving and former soldiers as well as civillians with his ridiculous fairy tales. Hopefull he will appear in court at some of the current inquiries and investigations so he can be shown to be the liar he really is.
    http://ingramis.blogspot.com/2006/09/martin-ingram-aka-ian-hurst-is-liar.html

    POSTED by http://jackgrantham.blogspot.com/

  • P O’Neil

    For anyone who is interested here is a link to Alex Jones interview with Martin Ingram and Kevin Fulton: http://prisonplanet.tv/audio/210906fulton.mp3
    I have just listened to this and some of the information highlighted is of definate interest… We all know how EVIL the Brits are, this just reniforces this….

  • P O’Neil

    PS the only way to achieve a free Ireland is to expose these monsters for what they are. The biggest fear the Brits have is exposure of the truth. I might not agree with the alledged activities of Ingram and Fulton but I do applaude them for coming forward and exposing this evil, at great personal risk to themselves….From the information given by these two former Brit operatives it is clear that the Brits have controlled both sides and engineered the conflict for their own agenda, standard Brit MO, not just in the six counties, but every other colony they control or countries they have invaded (Iraq springs to mind, even more so with Brit SAS deathsquad operatives being caught carrying out false flags missions).

  • marty

    Hi,Thank you for your kind and accurate comments Mr or Mrs O`Neil.

    The murder of Pat Finucane exposes all that is and remains bad about the direction and collection of Intelligence in NI. Societies both North and South can and should learn from the mistakes of the past and to hold to account those who have acted unlawfully.

    Today only a few Republican die hards or British Agents deny that I was right about the Collusion which was directed by HMG against both communities in the North and against Eire.Please see Irish News dated Monday 11 Dec 2000 for deatails. Well before Sir John got onboard this issue and more to the point he borrowed MY TERM Institutionalised collusion. LOL

    The days` of Republicans being able to claim they won the war are long gone, my predictions about the long term strategies of the leadership of the RM have proven to be true.The lies told consistently by the leadership about their strategies expose their true intentions from over twenty years ago. Nationalism today is stuck in a time warp thanks to the leadership of the RM, one day they will be required to explain their words and their actions.

    Once more I welcome those who have woken upto the truth about the ugly past of NI, the Dynamic is irreversable and is some comfort to the large body of people who are today questioning the tactics of the past.Be patient and true to the belief that it is wrong and illegal to take life for a political purpose outside the terms of common law.

    I only ask those clowns that make posts like the Anti Ingram ones above to explain why they doubt the word of a man who as delivered the truth about.

    1. Seagate .

    2. Finucane.

    3. Notorantonio.

    4. Freddie Scappaticci.

    Just a few of the many stories which both the state and the RM did not want to be told. Come on Anti Ingram let me ask you, do you not Believe Freddie Scappaticci is an Agent of the State ( HMG) and that other Agents of the State allowed him to remain in position for over TWENTY FIVE YEARS KILLING IRA men/ security forrces/civillians . Simple question.

    Come on lets debate it.

    Martin. ( Slack Jack)

  • P O’Neil

    Marty,

    I too think that there should be an open debate about the activities of thses agents, past and present, to use the old adage those who do not know or understand the past (i mean the real past, not the manufactured past we are being sold) are doomed to repeat it. But with regards to the bigger picture, how far does this rot extend. not just within the RM, but within the British State. Is it a case of the right hand not knowing, or caring, what the left is doing, or is the establishment well aware of what is going on? You mentioned on Alex’s radio show that it is predominately the civil servants who are responsible, as opposed to criminal elements within the government. I know very little about the machanisms of Brit Intelligence, other than what I have gleaned from Alex, Shayler and yourself, but from my understanding, all Intelligence agencies take an oath of allegence to the Queen, as opposed to Britain or the British people. I guess what I’m trying to get at is, is her Maj aware of, direct or control, these activities or is she just a figurehead who is kept in the dark? As I said earlier the only way to achieve true freedom is to expose the insidious mechanisms that covertly control and direct our live, and deaths.

  • (Iraq springs to mind, even more so with Brit SAS deathsquad operatives being caught carrying out false flags missions). P O’Neil

    And all the deathsquads are being controlled in Iraq by none other than Brigadier Gordon Kerr.

    While the likes of Martin Ingram and Kevin Fulton are hung out to dry, Gordon Kerr gets to conduct his deathsquads in Iraq.

    I wonder if Gordon Kerr’s middle name is Wayne?

    It would fit as he really is a

    “Wayne Kerr”